Clarification on Katzmaier's TV wrap comments from CES 2014 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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David Katzmaier wrote a CNET Wrap-up article on TVs at CES 2014: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57616979-221/tvs-of-ces-2014-wrap-lcds-get-curved-4k-bendy...and-better/

This article includes the following comment from him: "...seeing high-end LCD TVs return to creating beautiful pictures should be refreshing. Now if only they can tackle blooming and off-angle issues, and do it at a price similar to those late great plasmas. Maybe next year."


Some on AVS Forum have interpreted that comment to mean that David did not see any LCDs at CES 2014 that did not exhibit blooming and poor off-axis performance.

I suspected that the qualifier of 'at a price similar to those late great plasmas' meant his comment was only referring to lower-end LED/LCDs, but rather than argue about what his words were intended to mean, I decided to ask him directly.

Below are some excerpts from a recent email exchange I had with David asking him to clarify that comment and his overall impressions of the higher-end FALD panels from CES 2104:

DK: "For the record, what I meant was that I was hoping they could eliminate blooming and off-angle issues for a plasma-level (as opposed to Elite-level) price."


I asked David what he thought about the blooming performance of the high-end FALD panels at CES, including the Vizio Reference Series, the Toshiba Luminance panel, and the Sony X950B and here was his response:

DK: "In my brief time viewing canned demos on two pre-production Vizio R series TVs (one 65 and one 120-inch)--which gives a loose indication at best of how they'll perform in real-world testing of production models, when and/or if they arrive--I didn't notice any blooming.

My time spent viewing the Toshibas and Sonys were much shorter, but I didn't notice any blooming there either.

I guess it's worth reiterating that in no way do any of these viewings of mine mean these TVs won't suffer from blooming when they're released to the market."



I also asked him about whether he believed the Vizio Reference or the Toshiba Luminance panels would match the FALD picture quality standard established by the Sharp Elite, and here was his response:

DK: "From what I saw the Vizio Reference could match or outperform the Elite. The key to that panel's superb PQ was a high a number of dimmable zones--and the Reference has 384, more than the Elite (I believe; Sharp never exactly specified).

I didn't see enough of the Toshiba panels to say one way or the other.

I'd also throw the flagship Sony X950B into the mix...if I had to bet, I'd guess it would beat the Toshibas at least, and may also approach the Elite."



And finally, I asked David whether he noticed signs of blooming on the Vizio P Series TV at CES and here was his response:

DK: "...I didn't have a good enough look at the P to say one way or another."


David told me I could share these comments/clarifications with the forum, and so here they are biggrin.gif.

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Old 02-07-2014, 02:26 PM
 
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Well, thanks for your leg work. That offsets my concerns somewhat. I didn't know he was speaking from the caveat of a specific price point ($3K for a 65 to 70" panel would be my limit). Now if Vizio can actually deliver versus the vaporware they've announced at previous CES events, OLED's future suddenly looks dimmer (and that of plasma fans looks brighter).
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, thanks for your leg work. That offsets my concerns somewhat. I didn't know he was speaking from the caveat of a specific price point ($3K for a 65 to 70" panel would be my limit). Now if Vizio can actually deliver versus the vaporware they've announced at previous CES events, OLED's future suddenly looks dimmer (and that of plasma fans looks brighter).

Yeah, David is pretty big into affordability, as you may have seen from many of his reviews including the Sharp Elite (and as he should be, considering CNET is a mainstream consumer-geek publication :-)

And David's idea of the pricepoint that would make the Vizio Reference Series 'affordable' may be even lower than yours (I didn't ask him), since 'those late great plasmas' were priced well below $3K at the end when he was recommending them, and the Panasonic TC-PST60 plasma, which received his 'Strongest TV Recommendation Ever,' was priced below $2K...

But you are correct, delivery by Vizio is now the critical point, especially after the track record of failed 'flagship' promises over the past two years...

Since they said they have been working on the Reference Series 'for two years' and 'from a clean sheet', I'm going to be optimistic and hope that before following through on the 70" uber-FALD they promised at CES 2012, Vizio established their partnership with Dolby and realized what a failure that panel would be before launching it compared to what they could do if they started over with Dolby's help...

Pure speculation, but if that were the case, they'd have nothing to show-off at CES 2013, so the 2.35:1 panel may have been something they dusted off from the R&D dustbin to get some attention at CES (since that panel would have been doomed to failure as well if they had actually launched it).

If Vizio succeeds to deliver the 65" Reference Series this year, I hope it proves to be the real deal (Elite-class or better), and the company will have earned my respect. If they fail to deliver at least the 65" Reference Series this year (I don't care either way about the 120" R Series), they will have lost my respect (and likely my business) for all time...

-fafrd
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Old 02-07-2014, 04:22 PM
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DK: "For the record, what I meant was that I was hoping they could eliminate blooming and off-angle issues for a plasma-level (as opposed to Elite-level) price."

-fafrd

The 65" ZT msrp was over 4 grand right?
Not really what people would call affordable.
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Old 02-07-2014, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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DK: "For the record, what I meant was that I was hoping they could eliminate blooming and off-angle issues for a plasma-level (as opposed to Elite-level) price."

-fafrd

The 65" ZT msrp was over 4 grand right?
Not really what people would call affordable.

I bought my 65" ZT60 for $2800 (since returned) and the 65" VT60 cost $2200 at the same time (beginning of January 2014). Also, Katzmaier's recommendation for those panels didn't really gush in terms of affordability until they reached those kind of pricepoints. Here is what he had to say in a late January CNET article recommending 6 TVs here: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57617617-221/six-big-screens-for-the-big-game/

Panasonic TC-P65ZT60 (65-inch plasma, $3,199)
Samsung PN64F8500 (64-inch plasma, $3,099)
Samsung UN65F8000 (65-inch LED LCD, $3,099)
Sharp LC-70LE650U (70-inch LED LCD, $1,748)
Vizio E701i-A3 (70-inch LED LCD, $1,499)
Sony KDL-70R520A (70-inch LED LCD, $2,199)

So probably safe to assume that his idea of 'affordable' is not much above $3000 (and certainly not near the 65" ZT60s price of $3800 currently being listed on CNET). Here's what David had to say about the ZT60 in May of last year (prior to the steep price drop following Panasonic's announcement that it was getting out of the plasma business): http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p65zt60/4505-6482_7-35564328.html

"The bad: Exceedingly expensive."

"The bottom line: For those who can afford it, the Panasonic TC-PZT60 comes closer than any TV yet to picture-quality perfection."

And from the VT60 review here: http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p60vt60/4505-6482_7-35566958.html he had the same thing to say:

"The bad: Exceedingly expensive."


So for the purpose of this discussion, it's probably safe to assume that David did not consider the Vizio Reference Series, the Toshiba Radiance panel, or the Sony X950B as 'affordable' as 'those late great plasmas' which certainly included the PST60 and the PT60, and may have also included the VT60 and ZT60 following the pre-CES price drop.

The key point is that the disappointment he expressed in his 'CES wrap' article regarding continued issues with blooming on 'affordable' LCD TVs did not apply to those three flagship panels...

-fafrd
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Old 02-07-2014, 06:50 PM
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DK: "In my brief time viewing canned demos on two pre-production Vizio R series TVs..."

DK: "My time spent viewing the Toshibas and Sonys were much shorter, but I didn't notice any blooming there either."

DK: "I didn't see enough of the Toshiba panels to say one way or the other."

DK: "...I didn't have a good enough look at the P to say one way or another."

As the HDTV Guru-in-chief for CNET - if he wasn't spending a great deal of time performing due diligence on HDTV's, what the hell was he doing at CES? Checking out the CES models? Hanging out in the bathroom with Philip Seymour Hoffman? What? biggrin.gif
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:34 AM
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David is pretty big into affordability because he writes for real humans.

How dare he.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:19 PM
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As the HDTV Guru-in-chief for CNET - if he wasn't spending a great deal of time performing due diligence on HDTV's, what the hell was he doing at CES? Checking out the CES models? Hanging out in the bathroom with Philip Seymour Hoffman? What? biggrin.gif

I doubt that it's easy to conclude much from a CES demo set considering they generally use bright and punchy demo material, likely with sub-optimal settings. Combine this with the fact that models shown at CES are not actual production models and the only way to know how these TVs actually perform is evaluation when they're out in the wild.

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Old 02-09-2014, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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As the HDTV Guru-in-chief for CNET - if he wasn't spending a great deal of time performing due diligence on HDTV's, what the hell was he doing at CES? Checking out the CES models? Hanging out in the bathroom with Philip Seymour Hoffman? What? biggrin.gif

I doubt that it's easy to conclude much from a CES demo set considering they generally use bright and punchy demo material, likely with sub-optimal settings. Combine this with the fact that models shown at CES are not actual production models and the only way to know how these TVs actually perform is evaluation when they're out in the wild.

I'm sure you are right - Katzmaier did go out of his way to emphasize to me that these CES impressions of his were very preliminary and subject to change. His exact words to me were:

DK: "I guess it's worth reiterating that in no way do any of these viewings of mine mean these TVs won't suffer from blooming when they're released to the market."

CES sounds like a zoo and both the viewing environments as well as the content being displayed are no doubt manipulated to show these panels in their best possible light. Can't wait to see how they perform under testing "in the wild"...

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Old 02-09-2014, 07:15 PM
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Well, thanks for your leg work. That offsets my concerns somewhat. I didn't know he was speaking from the caveat of a specific price point ($3K for a 65 to 70" panel would be my limit). Now if Vizio can actually deliver

 

My knee-jerk reaction is to doubt that they can.  I have always gotten this sense from Vizio that low cost comes "at a price" (<---clumsy metaphor): and their corner cutting is built into their culture.  If they could have reversed this suddenly, they would have done this by now.  There is nothing in their display, nothing, that technologically could only have happened now as opposed to last year.  And yet it didn't last year.  I'm not saying it's impossible---I just find it disorienting to think of them as a quality leader.

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Old 02-09-2014, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, thanks for your leg work. That offsets my concerns somewhat. I didn't know he was speaking from the caveat of a specific price point ($3K for a 65 to 70" panel would be my limit). Now if Vizio can actually deliver

My knee-jerk reaction is to doubt that they can.  I have always gotten this sense from Vizio that low cost comes "at a price" (<---clumsy metaphor): and their corner cutting is built into their culture.  If they could have reversed this suddenly, they would have done this by now.  There is nothing in their display, nothing, that technologically could only have happened now as opposed to last year.  And yet it didn't last year.  I'm not saying it's impossible---I just find it disorienting to think of them as a quality leader.

I'm not sure I agree with your comment that I have underlined above.

We don't know what the Active Pixel Tuning technology is yet and what it does. Hopefully it is something significant and something that Dolby brought to Visio through their partnership. Of course, until the M, P, and R Series come out, it's all speculation. But that being said, I also think it is very premature to issue a definitive judgment on what Vizio has brought to the flat-screen party in 2014...

'Disorienting', certainly, and Vizio does not deserve consideration as a quality leader until they have proven that they deserve it. But until the all of the new 2014 TVs have materialized and been tested, I think we should leave the door cracked open to that possibility...


-fafrd

p.s. there was a time where the same comment you are making now in 2014 regarding Vizio was being made about Samsung...
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Old 02-09-2014, 07:35 PM
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p.s. there was a time where the same comment you are making now in 2014 regarding Vizio was being made about Samsung...

 

Different scenario entirely.  Did Samsung start off and establish a history of making the "bargain priced" lower quality (relative to the time period) displays?

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Old 02-09-2014, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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p.s. there was a time where the same comment you are making now in 2014 regarding Vizio was being made about Samsung...

Different scenario entirely.  Did Samsung start off and establish a history of making the "bargain priced" lower quality (relative to the time period) displays?

Don't feel qualified to answer that question regarding displays specifically (though I suspect the answer might be YES. But in the broader sense of Samsung as a CE supplier, I am certain the answer is YES. I just bought a new Samsung refrigerator, and 15-20 years ago when Samsung was just beginning their initiative to penetrate the consumer market, that would have been unimaginable...

From direct personal experience, I also know that in the 2000-2004 time period, Samsung started off and did establish a history of making "bargain priced" lower quality laptop computers...

-fafrd

p.s. and I also remember when this company in Japan called Sony started off and established a history of making "bargain priced" lower quality transistor radios...
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Old 02-09-2014, 08:04 PM
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p.s. there was a time where the same comment you are making now in 2014 regarding Vizio was being made about Samsung...

Different scenario entirely.  Did Samsung start off and establish a history of making the "bargain priced" lower quality (relative to the time period) displays?

Don't feel qualified to answer that question regarding displays specifically

 

It has to be the same scenario in order to say that my statement about Vizio was once being made about Samsung.  Further, of course there are going to be product lines in consumer electronics (a pretty big world) where this is true.

 

However, I'm talking about Vizio, and displays, and specifically their picture quality and I'm more than skeptical about this panning out to be the next coming or even close to one.  And sure, there's always an argument to be made that you have to weigh the PQ against the price point in order to fairly judge the overall value of the TV, but I'm not a disbeliever in them being able to turn out a bargain TV.  Nor do I doubt the reality of their ability to sell.  I'm just skeptical of them producing one of extremely high quality.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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Old 02-09-2014, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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p.s. there was a time where the same comment you are making now in 2014 regarding Vizio was being made about Samsung...


Different scenario entirely.  Did Samsung start off and establish a history of making the "bargain priced" lower quality (relative to the time period) displays?


Don't feel qualified to answer that question regarding displays specifically

It has to be the same scenario in order to say that my statement about Vizio was once being made about Samsung.  Further, of course there are going to be product lines in consumer electronics (a pretty big world) where this is true.

However, I'm talking about Vizio, and displays, and specifically their picture quality and I'm more than skeptical about this panning out to be the next coming or even close to one.  And sure, there's always an argument to be made that you have to weigh the PQ against the price point in order to fairly judge the overall value of the TV, but I'm not a disbeliever in them being able to turn out a bargain TV.  Nor do I doubt the reality of their ability to sell.  I'm just skeptical of them producing one of extremely high quality.

Fair enough. I'm hoping that the company is run by smart people that made the strategic decision to establish a profitable business by focusing on capturing market share by value HDTVs that led the market in terms of price/performance first, before investing in R&D and innovation to prove that they deserved to be considered an innovation leader and not just a low-cost follower.

The very fact that they have demonstrated the Reference Series and the specs they have published for it demonstrate Visio's desire to move into the top-tier. First, they need to prove they can actually deliver one of these class-leading flagship panels (especially after the missed promises of the past two years), and second they need that they can deliver such a flagship product (as well as their lower-end products) with the performance and quality that consumers expect of a top-tier supplier.

I don't begrudge you your skepticism, I'm just arguing that it is too early to close the books on Vizio's 2014 Reference Series initiative, and until the results are in towards the end of they year, I think it would be a mistake to reach a premature conclusion.

-fafrd

p.s. I also think the results from CES make it clear that in terms of direction t least, Vizio was the most exciting company this year... I just hope they have the execution and operational skills to back up all of that excitement with real products...
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:16 AM
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p.s. I also think the results from CES make it clear that in terms of direction t least, Vizio was the most exciting company this year...

 

It's clear you think so.  Some others do too.  I certainly don't.  More zones?  {yawn}....let's see them actually make good on this at low (or single) zone edge pricing.  Some "active pixel" mumbo jumbo?  And "direction" ?  "Direction" only matters after it's proven they can deliver and stay in the game.  OLED seemed like a GREAT direction 10 years ago.

 

Remember, we're still talking about a company whose sole mission in life is to sell budget (for the performance) LCDs.  If their new technology produces TVs that are no longer priced to compete against similarly sized Chinese brands then they'll have lost their edge.  The average person doesn't care about edge lighting the way we AVSers do.  Many of the people I know buy their TVs only at Walmart and Target.  I think most of the people getting swept up by this thing haven't accurately tallied just what it is that Vizio is touting besides price.  There isn't anything here other than talk and there's a little too much blind faith flying around for my comfort.

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Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:58 AM
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p.s. I also think the results from CES make it clear that in terms of direction t least, Vizio was the most exciting company this year...

It's clear you think so.  Some others do too.  I certainly don't.  More zones?  {yawn}....let's see them actually make good on this at low (or single) zone edge pricing.  Some "active pixel" mumbo jumbo?  And "direction" ?  "Direction" only matters after it's proven they can deliver and stay in the game.  OLED seemed like a GREAT direction 10 years ago.

Remember, we're still talking about a company whose sole mission in life is to sell budget (for the performance) LCDs.  If their new technology produces TVs that are no longer priced to compete against similarly sized Chinese brands then they'll have lost their edge.  The average person doesn't care about edge lighting the way we AVSers do.  Many of the people I know buy their TVs only at Walmart and Target.  I think most of the people getting swept up by this thing haven't accurately tallied just what it is that Vizio is touting besides price.  There isn't anything here other than talk and there's a little too much blind faith flying around for my comfort.


+1.

Sorry but I have to agree with you tgm. For all of Vizio's talk of a high end set I still have my doubts.
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:59 AM
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I think this is all about keeping 4K close to the quality of OLED without the price. If LCD can come close to picture quality of OLED then Vizio will kill OLED before it gets close in price. You're average consumer will go for the cheaper TV as long as it is close in picture quality.I don't think it will be a big difference in picture quality between OLED and LED 4k,nothing like going from 480 to 1080 which the average consumer could see a big difference
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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p.s. I also think the results from CES make it clear that in terms of direction t least, Vizio was the most exciting company this year...

It's clear you think so.  Some others do too.  I certainly don't.  More zones?  {yawn}....let's see them actually make good on this at low (or single) zone edge pricing.  Some "active pixel" mumbo jumbo?  And "direction" ?  "Direction" only matters after it's proven they can deliver and stay in the game.  OLED seemed like a GREAT direction 10 years ago.

OLED was a direction that entailed great technical risk 10 years ago (and continues to entail some technical risk today). The 'direction' we are talking about regarding Vizio in 2014 is nothing more than a return to picture quality over gimmickry. The Sharp Elite had already proven the potential for this approach and so there is basically no technical risk involved (through there may be significant execution risk). Of course Vizio needs to deliver and until they do your skepticism is justified. But the return to FALD, the partnership with Dolby and the abandonment of 3D are all reasons for some optimism.

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Remember, we're still talking about a company whose sole mission in life is to sell budget (for the performance) LCDs. If their new technology produces TVs that are no longer priced to compete against similarly sized Chinese brands then they'll have lost their edge. The average person doesn't care about edge lighting the way we AVSers do. Many of the people I know buy their TVs only at Walmart and Target. I think most of the people getting swept up by this thing haven't accurately tallied just what it is that Vizio is touting besides price. There isn't anything here other than talk and there's a little too much blind faith flying around for my comfort.

I think you are confusing faith with hope. And also, 'sole missions in life' can change. The Vizio of the past was a low-cost follower with several failed attempts at demonstrating some innovation and technical leadership in recent years. They are now giving every appearance of wanting to demonstrate their capacity to stay in front of the next wave of low-cost followers from China. Once the Japanese brands have all ceded the TV market to the Koreans and the Chinese, Vizio will be a top-tier brand by default. They will have the Chinese low-cost followers like Hisense and TCL nipping at their heals and the Koreans hoping that the OLED hot-air balloon finally takes off and brings them back to Kansas,. Vizio has only LED/LCD, so if there is any way that continued innovation in that technology can allow picture quality to improve further without significantly increasing cost, they have the most to gain from that innovation.

And you are completely right about the average TV buyer - they want the cheapest price, and then for that price, they want the picture that seems best and the most features. I think Vizio probably understands this better than any of the top-tier brands (certainly better than the Japanese brands). They can only stay on top in the US market if they continue to offer TVS that are as inexpensive as their Chinese copycats and offer pictures that look about as good as their Korean counterparts (including OLED).

If Vizio does not deliver class-leading TVs this year (including the P Series and the R Series), it was all talk and none of it is really going to matter, but I don't understand why that should make you uncomfortable. If they do deliver, the AV world is a more interesting place and if they don't 2014 is going to be just another year of treading water - what's to be uncomfortable about???

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Old 02-10-2014, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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p.s. I also think the results from CES make it clear that in terms of direction t least, Vizio was the most exciting company this year...

It's clear you think so.  Some others do too.  I certainly don't.  More zones?  {yawn}....let's see them actually make good on this at low (or single) zone edge pricing.  Some "active pixel" mumbo jumbo?  And "direction" ?  "Direction" only matters after it's proven they can deliver and stay in the game.  OLED seemed like a GREAT direction 10 years ago.

Remember, we're still talking about a company whose sole mission in life is to sell budget (for the performance) LCDs.  If their new technology produces TVs that are no longer priced to compete against similarly sized Chinese brands then they'll have lost their edge.  The average person doesn't care about edge lighting the way we AVSers do.  Many of the people I know buy their TVs only at Walmart and Target.  I think most of the people getting swept up by this thing haven't accurately tallied just what it is that Vizio is touting besides price.  There isn't anything here other than talk and there's a little too much blind faith flying around for my comfort.


+1.

Sorry but I have to agree with you tgm. For all of Vizio's talk of a high end set I still have my doubts.

When we are talking about Vizio, who could ever defend the position that doubts are not justified???

If it was a question of pre-paying for a 65" Reference Series now in order to get one if/when Vizio delivers, I'd understand the concern ('discomfort'). But that's not what we are talking about.

If Vizio delivers a surprising and class-leading set, great. And if they don't, most of the other alternatives are still out there.

I don't understand how anyone that values picture quality wouldn't be rooting for Vizio to pull off a surprise based on their announcements and 'talk' at CES this year.

Of course it's high risk and so I would not recommend anyone to be betting their life savings on that outcome (and if they had, I would absolutely understand the source of their 'discomfort' biggrin.gif ).

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My knee-jerk reaction is to doubt that they can.  I have always gotten this sense from Vizio that low cost comes "at a price" (<---clumsy metaphor): and their corner cutting is built into their culture.  If they could have reversed this suddenly, they would have done this by now.  There is nothing in their display, nothing, that technologically could only have happened now as opposed to last year.  And yet it didn't last year.  I'm not saying it's impossible---I just find it disorienting to think of them as a quality leader.
If they can't (and prior year evidence suggests they can't, unless they're holding to the third time's the charm rule), it just gives more reason to further expand the OLED piggybank savings. wink.gif
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Old 02-10-2014, 06:21 PM
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If Vizio does not deliver class-leading TVs this year (including the P Series and the R Series), it was all talk and none of it is really going to matter, but I don't understand why that should make you uncomfortable. If they do deliver, the AV world is a more interesting place and if they don't 2014 is going to be just another year of treading water - what's to be uncomfortable about???

 

You're not hearing what I'm saying.  Neither Vizio's potential success nor failure is in any way uncomfortable to me.  As if I'm rooting for or against them?  I haven't said anything remotely like that.  What I'm uncomfortable with is way in which folks seem to be convinced that Vizio really has already succeeded in doing something tremendous here.  And what's more: I don't think you can pull off high PQ while cutting corners at the same time...in my opinion it's certainly not been their reputation to date.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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If Vizio does not deliver class-leading TVs this year (including the P Series and the R Series), it was all talk and none of it is really going to matter, but I don't understand why that should make you uncomfortable. If they do deliver, the AV world is a more interesting place and if they don't 2014 is going to be just another year of treading water - what's to be uncomfortable about???

You're not hearing what I'm saying.  Neither Vizio's potential success nor failure is in any way uncomfortable to me.  As if I'm rooting for or against them?  I haven't said anything remotely like that.  What I'm uncomfortable with is way in which folks seem to be convinced that Vizio really has already succeeded in doing something tremendous here.  And what's more: I don't think you can pull off high PQ while cutting corners at the same time...in my opinion it's certainly not been their reputation to date.

Well, I don't think there is that much we disagree about then. If you believe I've ever said/written anything indicating that Vizio has 'already succeeded in doing something tremendous here", please point it out to me. They are poised, I believe they have made all the right strategic decisions, they have made a lot of noise at CES last month and received a great deal of recognition for it, but they have not delivered yet.

On your last statement, I believe Vizio has already demonstrated an ability to deliver class-leading PQ while 'cutting corners' (or reducing manufacturing costs) at the same time. Tell me one other panel this year that you believe beats out the 2014 E-Series in price/performance...

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Old 02-11-2014, 12:46 AM
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You're not hearing what I'm saying.  Neither Vizio's potential success nor failure is in any way uncomfortable to me.  As if I'm rooting for or against them?  I haven't said anything remotely like that.  What I'm uncomfortable with is way in which folks seem to be convinced that Vizio really has already succeeded in doing something tremendous here.  And what's more: I don't think you can pull off high PQ while cutting corners at the same time...in my opinion it's certainly not been their reputation to date.

To be clear, what I believe is the P series will be "good enough" to obliterate most of the mid/high-end competition in the market, which will begin the end of Japanese TV selling in the U.S.

If the P series is actually great, well that's even better.

I don't believe it has to be great, I believe it will be at least "pretty good".

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:26 AM
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You're not hearing what I'm saying.  Neither Vizio's potential success nor failure is in any way uncomfortable to me.  As if I'm rooting for or against them?  I haven't said anything remotely like that.  What I'm uncomfortable with is way in which folks seem to be convinced that Vizio really has already succeeded in doing something tremendous here.  And what's more: I don't think you can pull off high PQ while cutting corners at the same time...in my opinion it's certainly not been their reputation to date.

To be clear, what I believe is the P series will be "good enough" to obliterate most of the mid/high-end competition in the market, which will begin the end of Japanese TV selling in the U.S.

If the P series is actually great, well that's even better.

I don't believe it has to be great, I believe it will be at least "pretty good".

 

 

And this is a pretty clear distinction to focus on.  I of course agree.  But more to this hoopla overall: Frankly, this whole sub-conversation is beyond stupid.

 

I have no doubt that Vizio has the ability to create TVs that sell.  I also have no doubt that they've managed to find a fairly lethal combination of "good enough" and price and may as a result pound the crap out of anyone else using the older top-tier style pricing (Sony / Panasonic / etc.).  Is this "good enough" business something I'm supposed to be happy with?  (<---don't answer that---I'm asking rhetorically).  I'm not at all impressed by what Vizio claims, the flowery new terms of active pixel hooey, nor am I impressed by the arguments touted by this sudden blind-faith following they seem to have accumulated like lint.  Where on earth did this aura of "Hey, wow, NOW they've really done something" come from?  As if we've never ever seen a manufacturer make demos and statements like that before?  Why is this being treated as a fait accompli?

 

 

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+1.

Sorry but I have to agree with you tgm. For all of Vizio's talk of a high end set I still have my doubts.

I don't understand how anyone that values picture quality wouldn't be rooting for Vizio to pull off a surprise based on their announcements and 'talk' at CES this year.

 

And here we have a telling statement.  "Rooting for Vizio".  Is that what you're doing?  Good, go for it; declare victory and throw confetti while you're at it.  For me, I'll wait to see what it is they actually produce.

 

Those of us that have our doubts that Vizio can deliver high end PQ, and perhaps also don't see anything particularly fascinating in this, aren't secretly hoping for Vizio to croak.  Those of us that see a difference between Bang, and Bang for the Buck, and past lackluster PQ aren't somehow being naysaying curmudgeons.

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Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:55 AM
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I aint in any way hoping Vizio fails, in fact I hope they succeed. But I aint buying all the hype I have read or drinking the Vizio cool aide. They have to do a lot for me to have any faith in them. Sure they can talk about how great their new sets will be but the question is can they deliver the goods and quality? I have yet to see it. Sure you can promise and do a lot of talking but on the other hand you better be able to back it up, something I have yet to see Vizio do. I have always saw Vizio as a bargin basement brand being sold in bargin basement stores and until they prove me wrong, and I am sure they can if they want, then my mind wont change no matter what they may say otherwise. Prove me wrong Vizio!

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Old 02-12-2014, 01:34 AM
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And this is a pretty clear distinction to focus on.  I of course agree.  But more to this hoopla overall: Frankly, this whole sub-conversation is beyond stupid.

I'm not sure which conservation is beyond stupid, but I probably agree with that too. smile.gif
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I have no doubt that Vizio has the ability to create TVs that sell.  I also have no doubt that they've managed to find a fairly lethal combination of "good enough" and price and may as a result pound the crap out of anyone else using the older top-tier style pricing (Sony / Panasonic / etc.).  Is this "good enough" business something I'm supposed to be happy with?  (<---don't answer that---I'm asking rhetorically).  I'm not at all impressed by what Vizio claims, the flowery new terms of active pixel hooey, nor am I impressed by the arguments touted by this sudden blind-faith following they seem to have accumulated like lint.  Where on earth did this aura of "Hey, wow, NOW they've really done something" come from?  As if we've never ever seen a manufacturer make demos and statements like that before?  Why is this being treated as a fait accompli?

So let me be clear on one thing, I don't know what active-pixel hooey is. It sounds like hooey. Here's what sold me on Vizio:

With advanced local dimming technology, featuring a backlight that consists of 64 Active LED Zones...

...

VIZIO P-Series Ultra HD Full-Array LED backlit LCD Smart TVs
(P502ui-B1) $999.99 (MSRP)
(P552ui-B2) $1,399.99 (MSRP)
(P602ui-B3) $1,799.99 (MSRP)
(P652ui-B2) $2,199.99 (MSRP)
(P702ui-B3) $2,599.99 (MSRP)

Full array local dimming? Check!
70 inches? Check!
$2600?!?!? Check! Check! Check!

Maybe that TV can still be bad. I really doubt it though. And that pricing is delicious. Japan-killing delicious.
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Those of us that have our doubts that Vizio can deliver high end PQ, and perhaps also don't see anything particularly fascinating in this, aren't secretly hoping for Vizio to croak.  Those of us that see a difference between Bang, and Bang for the Buck, and past lackluster PQ aren't somehow being naysaying curmudgeons.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. What made me a convert was what I linked above plus a commitment to show technical excellence via the Reference demos.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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