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post #1 of 28 Old 02-11-2014, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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So I am searching for a 60-70 inch TV to replace my very old Toshiba DLP, and am having a lot of trouble. My wife is extremely sensitive to LCD motion blur (to the point where she hates watching TV at friends houses,) and we both hate dejudder/soap opera affect, so we have been looking mostly at plasmas. The ST60 sounds like it would have been ideal for us, but alas we are too late, and I am having a real problem finding any other plasmas that don't have some issue or are super expensive.

So are there any LED options that would work to provide smooth motion without the soap opera effect? I have read about the black frame insertion tech used on the Samsung 6300 and 8000, but haven't had a chance to see it in person. How well does that work, does it come anywhere near plasma motion without the soap opera?

Which TVs are the best at motion without the soap opera affect?

Looking to spend somewhere between $1000 and $2200 for a 60-70 inch screen, don't care about smart functions or 3d, fairly bright overhead lighting in the living room but no direct reflections on the screen and not a ton of sun during the day. Mostly HD cable TV and netflix streaming with the occasional blu ray.

Thanks for the help!
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post #2 of 28 Old 02-11-2014, 01:48 PM
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You would want a TV set with backlight scanning.
This usually resolves a full 1080 lines of motion resolution.

The drawback is that it lowers the overall brightness of the TV & may cause flicker, just like with plasmas

I'm sure the new Sony line has that in all their higher end models.
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post #3 of 28 Old 02-11-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrien View Post

So I am searching for a 60-70 inch TV to replace my very old Toshiba DLP, and am having a lot of trouble. My wife is extremely sensitive to LCD motion blur (to the point where she hates watching TV at friends houses,) and we both hate dejudder/soap opera affect, so we have been looking mostly at plasmas. The ST60 sounds like it would have been ideal for us, but alas we are too late, and I am having a real problem finding any other plasmas that don't have some issue or are super expensive.

So are there any LED options that would work to provide smooth motion without the soap opera effect? I have read about the black frame insertion tech used on the Samsung 6300 and 8000, but haven't had a chance to see it in person. How well does that work, does it come anywhere near plasma motion without the soap opera?

Which TVs are the best at motion without the soap opera affect?

Looking to spend somewhere between $1000 and $2200 for a 60-70 inch screen, don't care about smart functions or 3d, fairly bright overhead lighting in the living room but no direct reflections on the screen and not a ton of sun during the day. Mostly HD cable TV and netflix streaming with the occasional blu ray.

Thanks for the help!

The 2014 65" Vizio P Series is $2200 and should do a good job reducing motion blur.

It has an 'Clear Action Rate' of 960Hz (and an LCD panel with a native refresh rate of 120Hz).

This should mean that each pixel can be strobed 'ON' for only 1ms out of every 8.4ms (120Hz framerate) which would provide a level of motion blur that is even less than that of a good plasma such as the ST60 (which effectively strobes pixels for 1.67ms out of every 16.7ms (60Hz framerate). Motion blur in this case would be about 1/3rd less than with the plasma (66% of plasma motion blur).

This level of motion blur would also darken the image to 12.5% of peak brightness, so an 800 Nit backlight would only put out 100Nits (more than the ST60) and a 600 Nit backlight would only put out 75Nits (similar to the ST60).

And getting this level of motion blur means using a 120Hz frame rate, so either a 60fps source such as broadcast sports is increased to 120Hz using frame interpolation (so you would have the 'soap opera effect', though that is generally not considered a problem for sports) or you would need to repeat the same frame twice (for 60fps source) which would degrade the blur reduction significantly.

If you are talking about avoiding the 'Soap Opera Effect' on 24fps Cinema, that is another story entirely. If you are happy with the way a plasma such as the ST60 handles motion blur and judder with a 24fps film source like blueray, it's likely that the P Series with it's 960 Clear Action Rate will be able to do something similar, but whether this requires motion interpolation (Soap Opera Effect) or not, it's difficult to say at this stage of the game (the P Series has not yet been released to market)...

I don't understand how a plasma like the ST60 handles 24fps Cinema input. But if it is using 3:2 pulldown to repeat each 'true' frame 3 times and then 2 times (at 60Hz) and your wife is happy with the motion blur in that case, the worst case for the P Series should be to use 5:5 pulldown (better from a judder point of view - 'true' 24 fps Cinema mode) to repeat each frame 5 times (at 120Hz). The motion blur in this case should be a bit worse but about the same as in the plasma case...

If the P Series is able to display each frame by flashing it for a total of 5ms and then blanking off for 37ms (for a total 42ms frame time at 24fps), that should provide an even better level of motion blur reduction than a plasma (but may also cause flicker at 24fps). No idea if the P Series supports such advanced capability as part of their 'Pure Cinema Engine that adjusts its frame rate to show films as they were intended, in their native 24fps' or not: http://ces.vizio.com/p-series.html#skip

-fafrd

p.s. do you know how your Toshiba DLP handled 24fps film source???
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post #4 of 28 Old 02-11-2014, 03:24 PM
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It is not just a ''buy the right TV with the right motion options''. All settings of the TV(and blu-ray player, cable receiver etc..) should be optimized. The TV should preferably be pro-calibrated. Watch the best sources available, preferably blu-ray and 720p/1080i cable/satellite etc.. quality. It is basically about buying a quality TV, using the right settings and watch quality sources wink.gif

I own a 2008 LCd. I do not use any motion enhancement settings (motion smoothing options!), in fact they are turned off. I rarely see motion blur..
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post #5 of 28 Old 02-11-2014, 04:05 PM
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The TV you saw at your friends might have had noise reduction turn on, that cause 100% more smear effect on LCDs.
Could be why your wife might have noticed it it more.
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post #6 of 28 Old 02-11-2014, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrien View Post

So I am searching for a 60-70 inch TV to replace my very old Toshiba DLP, and am having a lot of trouble. My wife is extremely sensitive to LCD motion blur (to the point where she hates watching TV at friends houses,) and we both hate dejudder/soap opera affect, so we have been looking mostly at plasmas. The ST60 sounds like it would have been ideal for us, but alas we are too late, and I am having a real problem finding any other plasmas that don't have some issue or are super expensive.

So are there any LED options that would work to provide smooth motion without the soap opera effect? I have read about the black frame insertion tech used on the Samsung 6300 and 8000, but haven't had a chance to see it in person. How well does that work, does it come anywhere near plasma motion without the soap opera?

Which TVs are the best at motion without the soap opera affect?

Looking to spend somewhere between $1000 and $2200 for a 60-70 inch screen, don't care about smart functions or 3d, fairly bright overhead lighting in the living room but no direct reflections on the screen and not a ton of sun during the day. Mostly HD cable TV and netflix streaming with the occasional blu ray.

Thanks for the help!

I did a little more research on this. For motion blur associated with 1080/60i broadcast sources such as sports, I think we've already covered it - so if the TV your wife hates seeing at a friends house is broadcast TV at 60fps interlaced, and high action rate LCD such as the Vizio P Series should be able to solve the problem for you as well as a plasma.

Now you say you both hate the SOE and so I assume that means we are talking about 24fps film sources.

It's not clear to me if the TV your wife hates watching at friends houses is 24fps film or not, so the only thing I can assume until I hear otherwise from you is that you are both happy with the way your Toshiba DLP displays 24fps films. With no SOE is clear - you want a 'true' 24fps and no frame interpolation. By no 'dejudder' it's less clear to me what you mean. I'm going to assume you mean no 3:2 pulldown and a 'true' 24 fps framerate. So I'll assume your Toshiba DLP is able to display at a true 24fps without using 3:2 pulldown to get to a framerate of 60fps (maybe it is able to do a 120Hz framerate and use 5:5 pulldown).

If that is what your DLP is doing: 5:5 pulldown for a 120Hz framerate (or multiple thereof) and with a 'plasma-like' pixel ON time of 0.84ms out of each 8.4ms frame time (10%), the Vizio P Series should be able to do all of that (with a pixel ON time of 1.0ms out of each 8.4ms frame time (12.5%), so 125% the motion blur of a plasma.

Film projectors operate at 48fps and strobe each frame twice (24fps -> 48fps). If your DLP has a mode to do the same thing (48fps) and that is what you are seeking, we don't know yet whether the 'True Cinema' mode of the P Series will be able to do that (though they do refer to a 'True 48fps' mode, so perhaps they will...).

This would mean strobing the backlight for an effective frame rate of 240Hz and strobing each frame for a total of 5 times within each 20.8ms frame time (at 48fps) twice (for two consecutive repeats of the same frame, like a true film projector).

I have no idea what the blanking (or 'strobe-OFF') time of a true film projector is versus the flashing (or 'strobe-ON') time is, but if we assume 50%/50%, the motion blur could be reduced to exactly match that of a true cinema projector if each frame could be strobed 'ON' for 10.4ms and then strobed 'OFF' for 10.4ms out of each 20.8ms frame time.

In any case, a basic plasma is unlikely to have support for this kind of advanced timing, which is why I am curious as to what your Toshiba DL supports that you are happy with. The Vizio P Series with its 960Hz Clear Action Rate could have the capability to support this kind of advanced timing, but until it comes out, we don't know...

-fafrd
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post #7 of 28 Old 02-11-2014, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I did some more research to try to answer some of these questions. My current TV is a toshiba 52HM84, like shown here http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-52HM84-52-Inch-HDTV-Ready-Projection/dp/B0002KQR3M

One interesting line from the description is this "Cinema Mode circuitry (3:2 pulldown switch) identifies original film-based content from DVDs, then reassembles the frame sequence to more accurately reproduce the original 24-frame-per-second material."

That to me sounds like it is a true 24 FPS, no? As for how the image presents on the screen, I know that in a DLP the TV paints a full screen of red, then a full screen of green, then a full screen of blue, but I am not sure how quickly. I know early models were once per 1/30th of a second, while modern DLPs are 10 full scans of each color per 1/30th of a second. Not sure what my TV is, its not the earliest but its still pretty old, bought it in 2004 I believe. Not sure how it handles Blu rays, since they didn't exist when the TV was designed. To my eye I seem to see a slight stutter on Blu Ray movies, but no blur whatsoever. Broadcast is smooth, with no stutter.

As for my friends place, I have no idea what his settings were (and I don't really want to ask him why the TV he just bought looks so Sh#%tty haha) but I believe if I remember correctly we were watching modern family. Not sure what the framerate of that is, a search only turns up torrents which show 24 fps, not sure about that though. The image did have a lot of blur and smearing, so it could be noise reduction, I am not sure.

The P series is interesting, seems almost too good to be true. Don't see anything about release date yet, but very interested. Are there any other TVs out now that might solve my problem?
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post #8 of 28 Old 02-11-2014, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrien View Post

I did some more research to try to answer some of these questions. My current TV is a toshiba 52HM84, like shown here http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-52HM84-52-Inch-HDTV-Ready-Projection/dp/B0002KQR3M

One interesting line from the description is this "Cinema Mode circuitry (3:2 pulldown switch) identifies original film-based content from DVDs, then reassembles the frame sequence to more accurately reproduce the original 24-frame-per-second material."

That to me sounds like it is a true 24 FPS, no? As for how the image presents on the screen, I know that in a DLP the TV paints a full screen of red, then a full screen of green, then a full screen of blue, but I am not sure how quickly. I know early models were once per 1/30th of a second, while modern DLPs are 10 full scans of each color per 1/30th of a second. Not sure what my TV is, its not the earliest but its still pretty old, bought it in 2004 I believe. Not sure how it handles Blu rays, since they didn't exist when the TV was designed. To my eye I seem to see a slight stutter on Blu Ray movies, but no blur whatsoever. Broadcast is smooth, with no stutter.

As for my friends place, I have no idea what his settings were (and I don't really want to ask him why the TV he just bought looks so Sh#%tty haha) but I believe if I remember correctly we were watching modern family. Not sure what the framerate of that is, a search only turns up torrents which show 24 fps, not sure about that though. The image did have a lot of blur and smearing, so it could be noise reduction, I am not sure.

The P series is interesting, seems almost too good to be true. Don't see anything about release date yet, but very interested. Are there any other TVs out now that might solve my problem?

The Vizio Reference Series (if it actually reaches the market), the Sony X950B, and the Toshiba U9400, but they will all be outside your pricerange...

To get plasma-like motion blur reduction without SOE, you need an LCD with a very bright backlight and a very high action rate.

It sounds like your DLP just has a true 24fps mode (which is similar to what I have outlined) and if your guess about 10 scans per color every 30th of a second is correct, that would probably equate to an equivalent 'action rate' of about 1111Hz. So about 85% faster than the typical plasma (@ 600Hz) and just a bit above the P Series action rate of 960...

-fafrd
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post #9 of 28 Old 02-11-2014, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

The Vizio Reference Series (if it actually reaches the market), the Sony X950B, and the Toshiba U9400, but they will all be outside your pricerange...

To get plasma-like motion blur reduction without SOE, you need an LCD with a very bright backlight and a very high action rate.

It sounds like your DLP just has a true 24fps mode (which is similar to what I have outlined) and if your guess about 10 scans per color every 30th of a second is correct, that would probably equate to an equivalent 'action rate' of about 1111Hz. So about 85% faster than the typical plasma (@ 600Hz) and just a bit above the P Series action rate of 960...

-fafrd

Actually palsma's refresh of "600hz" means nothing. There are only 60hz plasma's, but they have sub-feilds, which make up an individual frame. In this case it would be 600 sub-feilds. Plasmas flash different intensities of light to make up one single frame.
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post #10 of 28 Old 02-11-2014, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

The Vizio Reference Series (if it actually reaches the market), the Sony X950B, and the Toshiba U9400, but they will all be outside your pricerange...

To get plasma-like motion blur reduction without SOE, you need an LCD with a very bright backlight and a very high action rate.

It sounds like your DLP just has a true 24fps mode (which is similar to what I have outlined) and if your guess about 10 scans per color every 30th of a second is correct, that would probably equate to an equivalent 'action rate' of about 1111Hz. So about 85% faster than the typical plasma (@ 600Hz) and just a bit above the P Series action rate of 960...

-fafrd

Actually palsma's refresh of "600hz" means nothing. There are only 60hz plasma's, but they have sub-feilds, which make up an individual frame. In this case it would be 600 sub-feilds. Plasmas flash different intensities of light to make up one single frame.

Yeah. my understanding is that a plasma refreshes each pixel to full 'ON' or full 'OFF' 10 times within each (60Hz) 16.7ms frame refresh cycle. So each individual pixel is being flashed on or off at 60Hz x 10=600Hz.

It's not exactly the same thing, but make a 10-segment strobing backlight that can be strobed one-at-a-time in sequence at 600Hz, and you would have built a display with motion blur very similar to the typical plasma...


-fafrd
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post #11 of 28 Old 02-13-2014, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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The TV you saw at your friends might have had noise reduction turn on, that cause 100% more smear effect on LCDs.
Could be why your wife might have noticed it it more.

The more I think about it, the TV at my friends house I am sure was a bottom of the barrel 60hz panel, and he probably had noise reduction on, which as you said causes more smear, which was exactly the problem. Also, when we watch the various tvs at the big box stores, I am wondering how much of what I am seeing is motion blur, and how much is just a crappy feed with artifacting? Perhaps the effect is hidden by the slightly softer and dimmer image on the Samsung 5500 plasma next to it, which is the only plasma I have been able to find right next to an LED set locally.
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To get plasma-like motion blur reduction without SOE, you need an LCD with a very bright backlight and a very high action rate.
-fafrd

Perhaps if I lower my expectations to not plasma level, rather just better then a bottom of the line off brand 60hz panel, perhaps she will be satisfied with that? Like maybe something with a true 120hz panel and/or backlight strobing or black frame insertion? Would that likely give me watchable motion without resorting to the soap opera effect?

What would my best bet be for something in the 65 or 70 inch 1500-2200 range? We are remodeling our living room right now, so I was looking to buy asap (need to wall mount the TV, so the DLP has to go) and the new vizios are MIA so far, so what is the best option for something available now? I know the Sharp 650u line is well regarded, but i'm skeptical of the motion quality.
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post #12 of 28 Old 02-13-2014, 01:24 PM
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GREAT THREAD!  

 

Motion is the #1 and ONLY issue for me.  I  am willing to sacrifice picture quality for better motion.

 

90% of what is in this thread is esoteric to me.  Can someone summarize this for me?

 

Should I wait for the Vizio P series to be released and take a chance that there will be less judder and blur in sports and movies?

 

Right now I am considering the Samsungs below.  Both 120 Hz.

 

UN50EH6000

UN55FH6003

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post #13 of 28 Old 02-13-2014, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrien View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

The TV you saw at your friends might have had noise reduction turn on, that cause 100% more smear effect on LCDs.
Could be why your wife might have noticed it it more.

The more I think about it, the TV at my friends house I am sure was a bottom of the barrel 60hz panel, and he probably had noise reduction on, which as you said causes more smear, which was exactly the problem. Also, when we watch the various tvs at the big box stores, I am wondering how much of what I am seeing is motion blur, and how much is just a crappy feed with artifacting? Perhaps the effect is hidden by the slightly softer and dimmer image on the Samsung 5500 plasma next to it, which is the only plasma I have been able to find right next to an LED set locally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

To get plasma-like motion blur reduction without SOE, you need an LCD with a very bright backlight and a very high action rate.
-fafrd

Perhaps if I lower my expectations to not plasma level, rather just better then a bottom of the line off brand 60hz panel, perhaps she will be satisfied with that? Like maybe something with a true 120hz panel and/or backlight strobing or black frame insertion? Would that likely give me watchable motion without resorting to the soap opera effect?

From what I have read, the move from a 60Hz panel to a 120Hz panel does the most to reduce motion blur. Capitalizing on that with a 24fps movie is going to require frame interpolation and result in the Soap Opera Effect (turning a 24fps Cinema Movie into a 120fps' video'). With live-action broadcast sport, it is also going to require frame interpolation and result in the SOE, but no one complains about that (in this case it turned video into better video).

If I was you, I would separate my watching into the two classes, 24fps cinema (blue rays) and video.

To get a low level of motion blur on video, you should probably not be worried about frame interpolation and the SOE and go for the fastest 'action rate' that you can afford (at least 120Hz).

For Cinema, you probably want to try a set that supports a 'true' 24fps (48fps) Cinema mode. This will not provide any motion blur reduction on a movie but will present it exactly as it is presented in a movie theater. If your wife does not complain about motion blur when watching a movie in a movie theater, she will probably be happy with a true cinema mode.

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What would my best bet be for something in the 65 or 70 inch 1500-2200 range? We are remodeling our living room right now, so I was looking to buy asap (need to wall mount the TV, so the DLP has to go) and the new Vizios are MIA so far, so what is the best option for something available now? I know the Sharp 650u line is well regarded, but I'm skeptical of the motion quality.

If you just want 1080p, the 65" 2014 Vizio M Series is $1500 and he 70" is $1900. The native refresh rate of the LCD is 120Hz with a Clear Action Rate of 720Hz which I am expecting to deliver a 'true' Effective Refresh Rate of 360Hz. The motion blur reduction at that Effecive Refresh Rate would be 83% lower than a straight 60Hz LCD (or about 2 times the motion blur of plasma, which is about 10% of a 60Hz LCD motion blur). It should be able to support a true 24fps Cinema mode but the specs don't make clear if that feature will be included or not. The M is not out yet but is expected before the end of March (though nothing yet confirmed).

If you are willing to spend a bit more, you might consider the 4K Vizio P Series. 65" is $2200 but it is also not available yet (hopefully before mid-year). It's main selling feature over the M Series is the higher resolution of 4K over 1080p, but is should also have a better local dimming performance (64 dimming zones versus 32 on the M) as well better motion blur reduction. It claims an action rate of 9600 but I suspect this is inflated and am instead expecting the P Series to deliver a 'true' Effective Refresh of 480Hz. At that Effective Refresh Rate, the P Series would deliver a motion blur reduction that is 87% lower than a straight 60Hz LCD (or 1.3 times the motion blur of plasma). The P Series is specified to support a True Cinema Mode of both 24fps and 48 fps.

If you are unable to wait for either the Vizio M or the P, you might think about checking out the Vizio E with your wife. The 60" is only $900 and is expected to be available by next week, the 65" is only $1200 and will hopefully be available on the heals of the 65", and the 70" is only $1600 and will hopefully be available by mid-March or so. The E-Series is only a 60Hz native refresh panel with an Effective Refresh rate of 120Hz, so the motion blur will be 50% of a straight 60Hz panel (and 5X the motion blur of a plasma). If will not be able to support a 48fps True Cinema mode and will probably also not support a 24fps True Cinema Mode, so playing Blue Ray or other 24fps content, it will probably use 3"2 pulldown which will mean some judder. This might be a useful set to check out at a BestBuy, especially if they allow you to play with the settings and play a Blueray, to narrow down on the viewing requirements for your wife.

If you don't need the dark levels and shadow detail plasma, there are a lot of economical 1080p edge-lit sets that might fit your requirements. Best place to ask that question would probably be on the 'help-me-choose-an-LCD' thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1230050/the-help-me-choose-an-lcd-thread

The Samsung F8000 is considered one of the best edge-lit LCDs out there right now, but it looks like it is out of your price range ($3100 for a 65").

The 70" 2013 Vizio M-Series is $2200 and is available now, so that may be another set you want to check out with your wife at best buy. It has an Effective Refresh Rate of 240Hz, so should have 25% the motion blur of a straight 60Hz panel (2.5X the motion blur of plasma)...

-fafrd
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post #14 of 28 Old 02-13-2014, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jwblue17 View Post

GREAT THREAD!  

Motion is the #1 and ONLY issue for me.  I  am willing to sacrifice picture quality for better motion.

90% of what is in this thread is esoteric to me.  Can someone summarize this for me?

Should I wait for the Vizio P series to be released and take a chance that there will be less judder and blur in sports and movies?

Right now I am considering the Samsungs below.  Both 120 Hz.

UN50EH6000
UN55FH6003

The Vizio P should have no judder for movies (support 'true' 24fps and 48fps Cinema Mode), has a 120Hz native refresh rate, and claims to have a Clear Action Rate of 960Hz which I expect to translate into a 'true' action rate of half that rate (480Hz), which would mean:

87% less motion blur than on a straight 60Hz refresh panel
75% less motion blur than on a straight 120Hz panel
1.3 times the motion blur of a typical plasma (130% the motion blur of plasma).

So if you are concerned about judder for movies and motion blur for sports, it would seem like the Vizio P Series would fit your needs much better than a straight 120Hz pane ... (in addition to being 4K and FALD)

-fafrd
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post #15 of 28 Old 02-13-2014, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

From what I have read, the move from a 60Hz panel to a 120Hz panel does the most to reduce motion blur. Capitalizing on that with a 24fps movie is going to require frame interpolation and result in the Soap Opera Effect (turning a 24fps Cinema Movie into a 120fps' video'). With live-action broadcast sport, it is also going to require frame interpolation and result in the SOE, but no one complains about that (in this case it turned video into better video).

If I was you, I would separate my watching into the two classes, 24fps cinema (blue rays) and video.

To get a low level of motion blur on video, you should probably not be worried about frame interpolation and the SOE and go for the fastest 'action rate' that you can afford (at least 120Hz).

For Cinema, you probably want to try a set that supports a 'true' 24fps (48fps) Cinema mode. This will not provide any motion blur reduction on a movie but will present it exactly as it is presented in a movie theater. If your wife does not complain about motion blur when watching a movie in a movie theater, she will probably be happy with a true cinema mode.
If you just want 1080p, the 65" 2014 Vizio M Series is $1500 and he 70" is $1900. The native refresh rate of the LCD is 120Hz with a Clear Action Rate of 720Hz which I am expecting to deliver a 'true' Effective Refresh Rate of 360Hz. The motion blur reduction at that Effecive Refresh Rate would be 83% lower than a straight 60Hz LCD (or about 2 times the motion blur of plasma, which is about 10% of a 60Hz LCD motion blur). It should be able to support a true 24fps Cinema mode but the specs don't make clear if that feature will be included or not. The M is not out yet but is expected before the end of March (though nothing yet confirmed).

If you are willing to spend a bit more, you might consider the 4K Vizio P Series. 65" is $2200 but it is also not available yet (hopefully before mid-year). It's main selling feature over the M Series is the higher resolution of 4K over 1080p, but is should also have a better local dimming performance (64 dimming zones versus 32 on the M) as well better motion blur reduction. It claims an action rate of 9600 but I suspect this is inflated and am instead expecting the P Series to deliver a 'true' Effective Refresh of 480Hz. At that Effective Refresh Rate, the P Series would deliver a motion blur reduction that is 87% lower than a straight 60Hz LCD (or 1.3 times the motion blur of plasma). The P Series is specified to support a True Cinema Mode of both 24fps and 48 fps.

If you are unable to wait for either the Vizio M or the P, you might think about checking out the Vizio E with your wife. The 60" is only $900 and is expected to be available by next week, the 65" is only $1200 and will hopefully be available on the heals of the 65", and the 70" is only $1600 and will hopefully be available by mid-March or so. The E-Series is only a 60Hz native refresh panel with an Effective Refresh rate of 120Hz, so the motion blur will be 50% of a straight 60Hz panel (and 5X the motion blur of a plasma). If will not be able to support a 48fps True Cinema mode and will probably also not support a 24fps True Cinema Mode, so playing Blue Ray or other 24fps content, it will probably use 3"2 pulldown which will mean some judder. This might be a useful set to check out at a BestBuy, especially if they allow you to play with the settings and play a Blueray, to narrow down on the viewing requirements for your wife.

If you don't need the dark levels and shadow detail plasma, there are a lot of economical 1080p edge-lit sets that might fit your requirements. Best place to ask that question would probably be on the 'help-me-choose-an-LCD' thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1230050/the-help-me-choose-an-lcd-thread

The Samsung F8000 is considered one of the best edge-lit LCDs out there right now, but it looks like it is out of your price range ($3100 for a 65").

The 70" 2013 Vizio M-Series is $2200 and is available now, so that may be another set you want to check out with your wife at best buy. It has an Effective Refresh Rate of 240Hz, so should have 25% the motion blur of a straight 60Hz panel (2.5X the motion blur of plasma)...

-fafrd

I guess what I am looking for then is a true 120hz native panel that is capable of playing 30 or 60fps video sources interpolated or not (Your right, interpolation for video sources is fine with me) that can also play a 24fps feed at a 5:5 cadence at 120hz with NO interpolation, and also play 30fps feed 3:2 pulldown (broadcasted movies) and convert them to a 5:5 cadence at 120hz.

Seems simple, but does such a panel exist in my price range? I am having a real hard time figuring out what TVs are capable of. For example the Sharp 650u series, its a native 120hz panel. So theoretically it should be able to do this, but I haven't been able to find out if it can.
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post #16 of 28 Old 02-13-2014, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwblue17 View Post

GREAT THREAD!  

Motion is the #1 and ONLY issue for me.  I  am willing to sacrifice picture quality for better motion.

90% of what is in this thread is esoteric to me.  Can someone summarize this for me?

Should I wait for the Vizio P series to be released and take a chance that there will be less judder and blur in sports and movies?

Right now I am considering the Samsungs below.  Both 120 Hz.

UN50EH6000
UN55FH6003

You definitely want a TV with backlight scanning. That gives good motion to LCDs at the expensive of brightness.
I'm not sure the Samsungs have that tech in their 2013 models.

If you don't mind interpolation, pretty much all 240hz set can give you perfect motion as well.


Plasma, LCD, DLP etc all have crippling motion problems for me. The closest thing to perfect artifact free TV are PC monitors that support lightboost
http://www.blurbusters.com/zero-motion-blur/lightboost/

It's kinda like backlight scanning, but it doesn't dim the picture.
If you have a native 120hz LCD, you can connect your PC with a Nvidia card & get it to work.

Samsung also has this tech, albeit inferior, in a small line of their PC monitors.
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post #17 of 28 Old 02-13-2014, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post


You definitely want a TV with backlight scanning. That gives good motion to LCDs at the expensive of brightness.
I'm not sure the Samsungs have that tech in their 2013 models.

If you don't mind interpolation, pretty much all 240hz set can give you perfect motion as well.


Plasma, LCD, DLP etc all have crippling motion problems for me. The closest thing to perfect artifact free TV are PC monitors that support lightboost
http://www.blurbusters.com/zero-motion-blur/lightboost/

It's kinda like backlight scanning, but it doesn't dim the picture.
If you have a native 120hz LCD, you can connect your PC with a Nvidia card & get it to work.

Samsung also has this tech, albeit inferior, in a small line of their PC monitors.

 

The Samsung I am not considering are $799. (UN50EH6000 and UN55FH6003) 

 

What I can't wrap my head around is that the 50" P Series will be $999. 

 

So I would be getting a Smart TV, UHD,  AND a better picture for $200 more?

 

On a tangent, do these Smart TVs usually have the capability to turn off the WiFi adapter?  

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Well, TVs are getting cheaper & cheaper every year.
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Why not just buy a plasma TV? If you want to save some money get a used Pioneer or Panasonic.
LCD TVs have yet to match the PQ of the plasma technology.
You will be happy you did.
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Type in "phosphor trails" or "phosphor lag" on youtube to see why he would avoid plasma tech if he wants perfect motion.
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post #21 of 28 Old 02-13-2014, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

Type in "phosphor trails" or "phosphor lag" on youtube to see why he would avoid plasma tech if he wants perfect motion.

Plasma looks fantastic to both my wife and I, no problem with that motion. The problem is there are only really two options left, the Samsung 5300/5500 and the 8500. The 5500 is pretty good but the super shiny screen is a problem for my decently well lit room. The 8500 is fantastic in every way except its too expensive. I keep getting close to giving in and grabbing a Samsung 5500 plasma before they all disappear, nervous I am going to miss my chance like I did with the Panasonic ST60 I should have bought. Hence why I am kind of in a hurry, and looking for an LED that I can stand to get instead.

The current M series might be an option, though I have heard it also has a mirror screen and has poor motion performance even with 240hz. Is that true at all? How do they perform without interpolation on?

Where have you heard about March for the M series? If true I might be able to go without a living room tv for that long.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrien View Post

Plasma looks fantastic to both my wife and I, no problem with that motion. The problem is there are only really two options left, the Samsung 5300/5500 and the 8500. The 5500 is pretty good but the super shiny screen is a problem for my decently well lit room. The 8500 is fantastic in every way except its too expensive. I keep getting close to giving in and grabbing a Samsung 5500 plasma before they all disappear, nervous I am going to miss my chance like I did with the Panasonic ST60 I should have bought. Hence why I am kind of in a hurry, and looking for an LED that I can stand to get instead.

The current M series might be an option, though I have heard it also has a mirror screen and has poor motion performance even with 240hz. Is that true at all? How do they perform without interpolation on?

Where have you heard about March for the M series? If true I might be able to go without a living room tv for that long.



I have 2 of the Pioneer Kuro TVs. I have had them around 6 yrs. They have the shiny screens. I have one of them in the bedroom with a patio door on the opposite wall. It has not been a problem watching it in any light condition.
We also have a Toshiba LCD in another room and sometimes the picture looks pretty good but other times it is terrible. The Pioneer seems to be good all around. The picture does seem a little soft sometimes.
I like the Pioneer so much I'm thinking seriously about buy a used one advertised in my area. The price is hard to resist.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrien View Post

Plasma looks fantastic to both my wife and I, no problem with that motion. The problem is there are only really two options left, the Samsung 5300/5500 and the 8500. The 5500 is pretty good but the super shiny screen is a problem for my decently well lit room. The 8500 is fantastic in every way except its too expensive. I keep getting close to giving in and grabbing a Samsung 5500 plasma before they all disappear, nervous I am going to miss my chance like I did with the Panasonic ST60 I should have bought. Hence why I am kind of in a hurry, and looking for an LED that I can stand to get instead.

Are you SURE you know what phosphor trails are?
This is an example of it on a Panasonic plasma
ibfmKxl5yYSKXV.gif
(that should only have black & white colors in that scene).

Phosphor trails is what finally chased me away from plasmas.
That happens to anything that has high contrast & during fast motion. It is inherent to the tech.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

Type in "phosphor trails" or "phosphor lag" on youtube to see why he would avoid plasma tech if he wants perfect motion.


Perfect motion? Are you implying LCD has better motion? LCD is inferior to plasma with motion blur, it don't know what you are talking about.
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Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

Are you SURE you know what phosphor trails are?
This is an example of it on a Panasonic plasma
ibfmKxl5yYSKXV.gif
(that should only have black & white colors in that scene).

Phosphor trails is what finally chased me away from plasmas.
That happens to anything that has high contrast & during fast motion. It is inherent to the tech.


I don't know what plasma displays this but my Panasonic does not display this at all.

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That's from a Panasonic ΤX-P42V10E
I seen phosphor trails on phosphor trails on the latest Panasonic VT60 & ZT60 as well. I doubt GT50 eliminated it.

You could just not be sensitive to it, just like people who claim not notice LCD smear.
It happens fairly quickly & only during fast moving scenes or pans, particularly on high contrast shots. Sin City is a nightmare for that.

edit:
Here is the same effect on a Panasonic GT60, similar to the one you have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zqkm_5Y3D8

It exists.
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Hmm i never had that problem with sin city on my set

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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I have never seen phosphor trails on my 2 plasmas.
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post #28 of 28 Old 02-14-2014, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

That's from a Panasonic ΤX-P42V10E
I seen phosphor trails on phosphor trails on the latest Panasonic VT60 & ZT60 as well. I doubt GT50 eliminated it.

You could just not be sensitive to it, just like people who claim not notice LCD smear.
It happens fairly quickly & only during fast moving scenes or pans, particularly on high contrast shots. Sin City is a nightmare for that.

edit:
Here is the same effect on a Panasonic GT60, similar to the one you have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zqkm_5Y3D8

It exists.

Sorry to disappoint you but my panel does not display that. Just because someone posted a video on YouTube doesn't mean all plasma/models get that. For one, the settings look way off in that video and As for not being sensitive to it, we'll I do notice LCD smear as well on the new Samsung 4K panel, Halos around people as they moved. I have also seen Sin City and never experienced any trails.

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