Gazing at the higher end TVs with motion interpolation and the different manufacturers' implementation of it at the local PC Richard's. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 02-22-2014, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm very particular about things and I get hooked on the wonderful technology and gadgets at the stores, especially how the TVs these days are able to speed or smooth out the picture with its built in technology and make the movies look nicer and more interesting to watch in some ways with that cool higher framerate effect. There's this Toshiba, right when you walk in the store, close to the door, and I was very impressed with the 240hz technology it has. The toshiba was set to smooth mode on ClearScan technology. From what I've seen, it seemed glitch free, and it worked very well and make the movies look faster while still looking nice and enjoyable. I think I like it better compared to sony's motionflow and samsung's AMP, because I feel sony's version we have at home over-does it and doesn't work or look as appealing as I want it to, or as interesting as the other technologies are, and samsung's from what I've seen on two or more TVs at the store had stuttering issues. And I know sometimes, my samsung with CMR 120 has some random stuttering at times, but not nearly as bad as the higher end TVs I saw today. On the toshiba, people's bodily movements had that weird fast motion effect like you'd expect from a TV like that, but it looked very nice on how it works on the toshiba, because of the type of algorithm used I'm guessing and it didn't have stuttering issues from what I've seen. The only thing I didn't like about the toshiba was the overall picture quality didn't look as nice as a samsung or other TVs I've seen at the store. It was mostly the motion enhancer on the screen model that caught my eye. They all look very similar though and different from the bravia TV from 08-09 we have at home with motionflow 120. They probably improved the technology over time. I might buy a toshiba next.

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post #2 of 28 Old 02-22-2014, 02:11 PM
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I feel that the only way to make a tv display a picture correctly is to disable all the motion tricks, I feel they make the picture look fake and just pain bad.
They are just gimmicks, advertising gimmicks.

The tv is not being fed information at that rate.
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post #3 of 28 Old 02-22-2014, 02:58 PM
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I can nearly guarantee you that any 240hz set will all look the same with the motion interpolation set to full.
The Samsung & Sony have several more options to choose from, I presume, over the Toshiba & that's why they didn't look the same at the store.

If you crank every option to high, they will all look the same. There should be no stuttering or discrepancies.
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post #4 of 28 Old 02-22-2014, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

I can nearly guarantee you that any 240hz set will all look the same with the motion interpolation set to full.
The Samsung & Sony have several more options to choose from, I presume, over the Toshiba & that's why they didn't look the same at the store.

If you crank every option to high, they will all look the same. There should be no stuttering or discrepancies.

I enjoyed the smooth setting on the toshiba. I'm not sure what the equivalent of toshiba's smooth setting would be on other manufacturers. The high setting on sony's motionflow make movies too ridiculous (judging from the 120hz motionflow we use). I think the toshiba one worked well compared to that and was still pretty fast and smooth. I was impressed by one of the samsung 240hz TVs a few years back. The interpolation just works right when the display has a 240hz refresh rate. I believe manufacturers improved it over a period of time so the TV uses it just right.

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post #5 of 28 Old 02-23-2014, 04:48 PM
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There are low, medium & high settings for motion interpolation.
Some companies like Samsung give more options, splitting into 6 different settings. A separate "judder" & "clear" option, all with off, low, medium & high options & all of them can be set to high if you would want.
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post #6 of 28 Old 02-23-2014, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

There are low, medium & high settings for motion interpolation.
Some companies like Samsung give more options, splitting into 6 different settings. A separate "judder" & "clear" option, all with off, low, medium & high options & all of them can be set to high if you would want.

Any idea what they do? Is low basically no interpolation for 60Hz input (and single frame interpolation for 30fps input or 3:2 pulldown for 24fps input), medium single frame interpolation of 60Hz input to 120Hz effective frame rate, and high full three-frame interpolation of 60Hz input to 240Hz effective frame rate?

And is 'judder' on the Samsung panels just for 24fps film input? What effect do the low, medium and high settings of that have???

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post #7 of 28 Old 02-23-2014, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

There are low, medium & high settings for motion interpolation.
Some companies like Samsung give more options, splitting into 6 different settings. A separate "judder" & "clear" option, all with off, low, medium & high options & all of them can be set to high if you would want.

With a Samsung 22 inch CMR 120 TV like mine, what is it likely set to, high, medium, or low by default? Is there a way to test this. I can't set it to anything specific, because it lacks AMP but I know it has some interpolation, because things look different on it than any other TV or whatever, but I can't really clear things up fully, because I usually watch stuff through youtube. Crackle and youtube seems to show it has some kind of interpolation or speedy picture at certain times, but it doesn't work on netflix. I have the PS3 hooked up to my TV via HDMI and I watch stuff through that. Is there maybe a specific youtube video I can search for that will allow the TV to take advantage of the interpolation?

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post #8 of 28 Old 02-23-2014, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

There are low, medium & high settings for motion interpolation.
Some companies like Samsung give more options, splitting into 6 different settings. A separate "judder" & "clear" option, all with off, low, medium & high options & all of them can be set to high if you would want.

Any idea what they do? Is low basically no interpolation for 60Hz input (and single frame interpolation for 30fps input or 3:2 pulldown for 24fps input), medium single frame interpolation of 60Hz input to 120Hz effective frame rate, and high full three-frame interpolation of 60Hz input to 240Hz effective frame rate?

And is 'judder' on the Samsung panels just for 24fps film input? What effect do the low, medium and high settings of that have???

-fafrd

 

You'll see over time a morphing of the term "judder" away from it's original "telecine judder" (a pulldown artifact---the only way I'll personally use it) to a generalized stuttering of motion.  It's thrown more than one conversation off track.  I don't know how the manufacturers are using the term now in their settings.


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post #9 of 28 Old 02-23-2014, 06:13 PM
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Here is a post explaining Samsungs motion settings in more detail
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1512332/motion-enhancers-auto-motion-plus#post_24222272
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Originally Posted by iBrad View Post

According Samsung: http://www.samsung.com/us/support/howtoguide/N0000000/9488/0/N/3/M//
Quote:
o Off: Disables the interpolation of frames but does not disable the 120Hz processing.
o Clear: This preset is optimized for high blur reduction but low judder reduction.
o Standard: This preset is used for most programming with medium blur and judder reduction.
o Smooth: This preset is used for high judder reduction but low blur reduction.
o Custom: This is a user defined setting where you can set the judder and blur reduction to your personal preference.

Note: This is the only mode that the Blur and Judder reduction adjustment bars will be available for modification.
o Demo: This is a preset generally used for in store demonstrations. This mode will split the TV screen in half and apply the Standard AMP setting to one side of the screen and no AMP to the other side so you can see the difference.
The Standard setting is Custom with Blur Reduction=5 and Judder Reduction=5.
High BR setting caused frame strobing/doubling/breaking effect, High JR caused spedup/smoothing/soap opera effect/frame skipping/jumping.

There is no 60fps movies/tv broadcast, movies are 24fps except The Hobbit at 48fps and tv are 30fps.
High settings of Motion Plus will emphasize any motion irregularities in the video source contents.
Only videogames can deliver 60fps.

Try BR=4 and JR=6-8 for the 60fps emulation.

Related thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1444011/official-samsung-auto-motion-plus-thread-gimmick-or-substance/0_50
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post #10 of 28 Old 02-26-2014, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I think the samsung f5000/f5500 tvs use a light form of motion interpolation that's on by default. It feels like the CMR 120 built in might be the equivalent of sony's motionflow standard mode or whatever the lighter interpolation modes are called from other manufacturers. It seems like the movies might feel a little different, but not high like a soap opera really, like cinema quality with interpolation to make the movie have a different feel, almost like being filmed on a hd digital camera or DSLR. And sometimes the frames stutter. 

 

Can someone tell me how motionflow standard mode works or how lighter interpolation works when compared to high/smooth modes. How does it make it not as intense if there is only so many ways you can insert a frames in between existing frames? Like Instead of inserting the frame in between, does it insert one every other few frames instead of being right between the next one so the movie doesn't look super soapy, but slightly?

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post #11 of 28 Old 02-26-2014, 03:33 PM
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Have you seen The Hobbit?
Filmed in 48fps, that would be roughly the equivalent of Motion Interpolation set to Medium.
Set to High would be the equivalent of a soap opera, 60fps.

Low would be the same as 30fps, which barely change the look & feel of the film, but give panning shot s a smoother, less jerky feel.
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post #12 of 28 Old 02-26-2014, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

Have you seen The Hobbit?
Filmed in 48fps, that would be roughly the equivalent of Motion Interpolation set to Medium.
Set to High would be the equivalent of a soap opera, 60fps.

Low would be the same as 30fps, which barely change the look & feel of the film, but give panning shot s a smoother, less jerky feel.

That's exactly what my 60hz samsung tv does, it makes some content look almost like a documentary, but slower, you can see the random interpolation stutters. It looks slightly weird and different from a typical film, but gives it a little special feel maybe. When the camera is up close to people's faces or watching movements in certain scenes might look different at times. When people run or do some kind of quick movement it gives a more fast forward effect rather than a soap opera effect. I'm watching through youtube so I can't judge correctly. It only works for certain content through youtube, and it doesn't work on netflix really. I am using a playstation 3, so that could be why. I need real cable tv to judge, since that's live broadcast with no quality change or lag.

 

 

Also, no I haven't seen the hobbit, but I've heard of it and seen trailers.

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post #13 of 28 Old 02-26-2014, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

Have you seen The Hobbit?
Filmed in 48fps, that would be roughly the equivalent of Motion Interpolation set to Medium.
Set to High would be the equivalent of a soap opera, 60fps.

Low would be the same as 30fps, which barely change the look & feel of the film, but give panning shot s a smoother, less jerky feel.

Trying to see if I understand what you are saying:

So 'HIGH' means full motion interpolation to 60fps?? (not to 120fps?) [on a 120Hz display, interpolating 4 frames between each pair of source frames would provide a 120fps stream...]

'MEDIUM' means interpolating 24fps up to 48fps [adding a single interpolated frame between each source frame] (or 3:2 pulldown of a 48fps stream on a 120fps display?)

'LOW' means straight 5:5 pulldown on a 120fps display (basically no motion interpolation)

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post #14 of 28 Old 02-26-2014, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Trying to see if I understand what you are saying:

So 'HIGH' means full motion interpolation to 60fps?? (not to 120fps?) [on a 120Hz display, interpolating 4 frames between each pair of source frames would provide a 120fps stream...]

'MEDIUM' means interpolating 24fps up to 48fps [adding a single interpolated frame between each source frame] (or 3:2 pulldown of a 48fps stream on a 120fps display?)

'LOW' means straight 5:5 pulldown on a 120fps display (basically no motion interpolation)

-fafrd

On a 60hz tv like mine, how much would be interpolated with samsung CMR 120 (which is on and built in by default, no turning it off I assume)? There's certain content and areas of a video that would look fast forwarded sorta. i'm watching an episode of a show that's 24fps I believe, and it's giving a fast soap opera kinda look, even though the TV is at 60hz. You can even see some of the artifacts and interpolation faults, like noise on the screen and blocky auras around people, slightly, could be the video though. Mine right here http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN22F5000-22-Inch-1080p-60Hz/dp/B00BCGRX9M.

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post #15 of 28 Old 02-26-2014, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Trying to see if I understand what you are saying:


So 'HIGH' means full motion interpolation to 60fps?? (not to 120fps?) [on a 120Hz display, interpolating 4 frames between each pair of source frames would provide a 120fps stream...]


'MEDIUM' means interpolating 24fps up to 48fps [adding a single interpolated frame between each source frame] (or 3:2 pulldown of a 48fps stream on a 120fps display?)


'LOW' means straight 5:5 pulldown on a 120fps display (basically no motion interpolation)


-fafrd
On a 60hz tv like mine, how much would be interpolated with samsung CMR 120 (which is on and built in by default, no turning it off I assume)? There's certain content and areas of a video that would look fast forwarded sorta. i'm watching an episode of a show that's 24fps I believe, and it's giving a fast soap opera kinda look, even though the TV is at 60hz. You can even see some of the artifacts and interpolation faults, like noise on the screen. Mine right here http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN22F5000-22-Inch-1080p-60Hz/dp/B00BCGRX9M.

OK, so you panel only has a native refresh rate of 60Hz, not 120Hz. That should mean that the panel is incapable of displaying a video stream at anything higher than 60fps and so now I understand wtfers reference to HIGH being only 60fps.

So on HIGH, you'll be using maximum motion interpolation to generate a 60fps frame stream from a 24fps input stream. Not sure what that means, but it could mean generating a full 4 interpolated frames from each pair of source frames to result in a 120fps video stream and then only displaying every other frame (this would mean not displaying every other 'true' source frame, and I'm not sure if that is done).

LOW in any case probably means either straight 3:2 pulldown (AAABBCCCDD...) or possibly a single interpolated frame in the middle (AAxBBCCyDD)

And as Wfer had indicated, MEDUM probably means some pseudo 48fps mode - so after single-frame interpolation to generate a 48fps stream from a 24fps stream, that is displayed with either a repeat frame (AABCDEEFGH) or a single interpolated frame (ABxCDEFyGH)

I'm not sure it's a matter of turning ON of OFF CMR 120 - it's more a matter of having a native refresh rate of 60fps which needs to be fed at that rate, regardless of the frame rate of the source...

The CMR120 should end up just being the scanning backlight that reduces the pixel on time by 50% (so it is the same as it would be on a 120Hz refresh panel) at the expense of reducing light output by 50%. f there is not an explicit control to turn CMR120 ON or OFF, it may always be on (just built into the refresh electronics of the panel) or it may be linked to another control such as 'Backlight'. See if setting 'backlight' and contrast to max you get any increase in motion blur...

Anyway, the stuff related to the backlight scanning and motion blur reduction (Clear Motion Rate) is distinct from and unrelated to MotionFlow (which is more likely to be the control of frame interpolation modes).

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post #16 of 28 Old 02-26-2014, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, so you panel only has a native refresh rate of 60Hz, not 120Hz. That should mean that the panel is incapable of displaying a video stream at anything higher than 60fps and so now I understand wtfers reference to HIGH being only 60fps.

So on HIGH, you'll be using maximum motion interpolation to generate a 60fps frame stream from a 24fps input stream. Not sure what that means, but it could mean generating a full 4 interpolated frames from each pair of source frames to result in a 120fps video stream and then only displaying every other frame (this would mean not displaying every other 'true' source frame, and I'm not sure if that is done).

LOW in any case probably means either straight 3:2 pulldown (AAABBCCCDD...) or possibly a single interpolated frame in the middle (AAxBBCCyDD)

And as Wfer had indicated, MEDUM probably means some pseudo 48fps mode - so after single-frame interpolation to generate a 48fps stream from a 24fps stream, that is displayed with either a repeat frame (AABCDEEFGH) or a single interpolated frame (ABxCDEFyGH)

I'm not sure it's a matter of turning ON of OFF CMR 120 - it's more a matter of having a native refresh rate of 60fps which needs to be fed at that rate, regardless of the frame rate of the source...

The CMR120 should end up just being the scanning backlight that reduces the pixel on time by 50% (so it is the same as it would be on a 120Hz refresh panel) at the expense of reducing light output by 50%. f there is not an explicit control to turn CMR120 ON or OFF, it may always be on (just built into the refresh electronics of the panel) or it may be linked to another control such as 'Backlight'. See if setting 'backlight' and contrast to max you get any increase in motion blur...

Anyway, the stuff related to the backlight scanning and motion blur reduction (Clear Motion Rate) is distinct from and unrelated to MotionFlow (which is more likely to be the control of frame interpolation modes).

-fafrd

I turned the backlight scanning off and it still gives me that interpolation look. Maybe the CMR 120 is what the display is made to do by default and has no on/off option?

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post #17 of 28 Old 02-26-2014, 06:40 PM
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OK, so you panel only has a native refresh rate of 60Hz, not 120Hz. That should mean that the panel is incapable of displaying a video stream at anything higher than 60fps and so now I understand wtfers reference to HIGH being only 60fps.


So on HIGH, you'll be using maximum motion interpolation to generate a 60fps frame stream from a 24fps input stream. Not sure what that means, but it could mean generating a full 4 interpolated frames from each pair of source frames to result in a 120fps video stream and then only displaying every other frame (this would mean not displaying every other 'true' source frame, and I'm not sure if that is done).


LOW in any case probably means either straight 3:2 pulldown (AAABBCCCDD...) or possibly a single interpolated frame in the middle (AAxBBCCyDD)


And as Wfer had indicated, MEDUM probably means some pseudo 48fps mode - so after single-frame interpolation to generate a 48fps stream from a 24fps stream, that is displayed with either a repeat frame (AABCDEEFGH) or a single interpolated frame (ABxCDEFyGH)


I'm not sure it's a matter of turning ON of OFF CMR 120 - it's more a matter of having a native refresh rate of 60fps which needs to be fed at that rate, regardless of the frame rate of the source...


The CMR120 should end up just being the scanning backlight that reduces the pixel on time by 50% (so it is the same as it would be on a 120Hz refresh panel) at the expense of reducing light output by 50%. f there is not an explicit control to turn CMR120 ON or OFF, it may always be on (just built into the refresh electronics of the panel) or it may be linked to another control such as 'Backlight'. See if setting 'backlight' and contrast to max you get any increase in motion blur...


Anyway, the stuff related to the backlight scanning and motion blur reduction (Clear Motion Rate) is distinct from and unrelated to MotionFlow (which is more likely to be the control of frame interpolation modes).


-fafrd
I turned the backlight scanning off and it still gives me that interpolation look. Maybe the CMR 120 is what the display is made to do by default and has no on/off option?

Well, backlight scanning may mean a 2 or 4 section scan which gets replaced with a full-backlight 'strobe' when scanning is turned off... I can't say - you need to ask other owners of this same panel. In any case, backlight scanning should only impact motion blur and possible max brightness output - it has nothing to do with frame interpolation...

-fafrd
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post #18 of 28 Old 02-26-2014, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, backlight scanning may mean a 2 or 4 section scan which gets replaced with a full-backlight 'strobe' when scanning is turned off... I can't say - you need to ask other owners of this same panel. In any case, backlight scanning should only impact motion blur and possible max brightness output - it has nothing to do with frame interpolation...

-fafrd

The setting for scanning is called LED clear motion, all it does is dim the display and maybe make the image have a faster response. If I turn it off, My TV is bright and I still seem to get the interpolation look, which seems to mean that the interpolation is part of how the tv works by default and the scanning is an additional feature. According to samsung, CMR uses 3 factors, refresh rate, image processor and backlight technology. So I guess turning off LED clear motion (backlight scanning) just uses the processor that interpolates frames based on the refresh rate. To be honest, backlight scanning is hardly useful, all it does it make the screen dimmer and make high speed content look more fluidly . Sure it might reduce very little blur, but I lose a ton of picture quality.

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post #19 of 28 Old 02-26-2014, 07:48 PM
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Well, backlight scanning may mean a 2 or 4 section scan which gets replaced with a full-backlight 'strobe' when scanning is turned off... I can't say - you need to ask other owners of this same panel. In any case, backlight scanning should only impact motion blur and possible max brightness output - it has nothing to do with frame interpolation...


-fafrd
The setting for scanning is called LED clear motion, all it does is dim the display and maybe make the image have a faster response. If I turn it off, My TV is bright and I still seem to get the interpolation look, which seems to mean that the interpolation is part of how the tv works by default and the scanning is an additional feature. According to samsung, CMR uses 3 factors, refresh rate, image processor and backlight technology. So I guess turning off LED clear motion (backlight scanning) just uses the processor that interpolates frames based on the refresh rate. To be honest, backlight scanning is hardly useful, all it does it make the screen dimmer and make high speed content look more fluidly . Sure it might reduce very little blur, but I lose a ton of picture quality.

Yeah, LED Clear Motion, whether it does it through a 2-segment scanning backlight or a 50% full-backlight strobe, reduces the pixel ON time to 50% so that the motion blur is effectively reduced to the equivalent of a 120Hz display (should mean about half the motion blur at a cost of half the image brightness). Turning this on or off should have no effect on motion 'smoothness' or the use of frame interpolation.

The interpolation is purely related to getting an effective frame rate of 60fps, which is what your 60Hz panel needs as input.

If you can find a true source of 60fps input, for example over-the-air broadcast of sports or whatever, you should see no effect from changing MotionFlow LOW to MEDIUM to HIGH (or perhaps with 60fps native input, the ability to even control the MotionFlow setting gets greyed out. Changing the LED Clear Motion setting with this input should result in some reduction of motion blur (at the expense of brightness) but that is it - no motion interpolation needed or possible or true 60fps input streams.

It's when you are feeding your panel inputs that are at less than true 60fps that the MotionFlow setting will have an effect. Any you need to know what the frame rate of the input source is to determine that effect at the various settings.

My earlier post gave you an idea of how the various setting of MotionFlow may effect 24fps input such as you would get off of a Blueray.

If you can find a source of 30fps input, the effect would probably be different, with one setting interpolating a single frame-per-frame from 30fps up to 60fps, and another setting using frame repeat to get from 30fps to 60fps (AABBCCDD). I can't see how there could be any third interpolation setting for 30fps content going up to 60fps so if there is a third MotionFlow setting available with 30fps content, it probably has no effect...

And I have no idea what all of this means with streaming content from YouTube. From Netflix or Amazon, movie content should be coming in at 24fps (or 24fps scaled up to 60fps using 3:2 pulldown) and TV content should be coming in at 30fps.

I think you need to nail down the frame rate of your incoming video sources if you want to understand more clearly what the various MotionFlow settings are doing...

-fafrd
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post #20 of 28 Old 02-27-2014, 12:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, LED Clear Motion, whether it does it through a 2-segment scanning backlight or a 50% full-backlight strobe, reduces the pixel ON time to 50% so that the motion blur is effectively reduced to the equivalent of a 120Hz display (should mean about half the motion blur at a cost of half the image brightness). Turning this on or off should have no effect on motion 'smoothness' or the use of frame interpolation.

The interpolation is purely related to getting an effective frame rate of 60fps, which is what your 60Hz panel needs as input.

If you can find a true source of 60fps input, for example over-the-air broadcast of sports or whatever, you should see no effect from changing MotionFlow LOW to MEDIUM to HIGH (or perhaps with 60fps native input, the ability to even control the MotionFlow setting gets greyed out. Changing the LED Clear Motion setting with this input should result in some reduction of motion blur (at the expense of brightness) but that is it - no motion interpolation needed or possible or true 60fps input streams.

It's when you are feeding your panel inputs that are at less than true 60fps that the MotionFlow setting will have an effect. Any you need to know what the frame rate of the input source is to determine that effect at the various settings.

My earlier post gave you an idea of how the various setting of MotionFlow may effect 24fps input such as you would get off of a Blueray.

If you can find a source of 30fps input, the effect would probably be different, with one setting interpolating a single frame-per-frame from 30fps up to 60fps, and another setting using frame repeat to get from 30fps to 60fps (AABBCCDD). I can't see how there could be any third interpolation setting for 30fps content going up to 60fps so if there is a third MotionFlow setting available with 30fps content, it probably has no effect...

And I have no idea what all of this means with streaming content from YouTube. From Netflix or Amazon, movie content should be coming in at 24fps (or 24fps scaled up to 60fps using 3:2 pulldown) and TV content should be coming in at 30fps.

I think you need to nail down the frame rate of your incoming video sources if you want to understand more clearly what the various MotionFlow settings are doing...

-fafrd

Well I don't have motionflow, I just used that name as an example. I have samsung's Clear Motion Rate 120. There is no motion smoothing setting, it is all built in and set on by default it seems. Basically the 120 is the measurement of the tv performance. I'd much rather have an actual setting for interpolation, rather than the tv just doing things on its own, bt it's a cheap $150 tv so I shouldn't complain.

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Yeah, LED Clear Motion, whether it does it through a 2-segment scanning backlight or a 50% full-backlight strobe, reduces the pixel ON time to 50% so that the motion blur is effectively reduced to the equivalent of a 120Hz display (should mean about half the motion blur at a cost of half the image brightness). Turning this on or off should have no effect on motion 'smoothness' or the use of frame interpolation.


The interpolation is purely related to getting an effective frame rate of 60fps, which is what your 60Hz panel needs as input.


If you can find a true source of 60fps input, for example over-the-air broadcast of sports or whatever, you should see no effect from changing MotionFlow LOW to MEDIUM to HIGH (or perhaps with 60fps native input, the ability to even control the MotionFlow setting gets greyed out. Changing the LED Clear Motion setting with this input should result in some reduction of motion blur (at the expense of brightness) but that is it - no motion interpolation needed or possible or true 60fps input streams.


It's when you are feeding your panel inputs that are at less than true 60fps that the MotionFlow setting will have an effect. Any you need to know what the frame rate of the input source is to determine that effect at the various settings.


My earlier post gave you an idea of how the various setting of MotionFlow may effect 24fps input such as you would get off of a Blueray.


If you can find a source of 30fps input, the effect would probably be different, with one setting interpolating a single frame-per-frame from 30fps up to 60fps, and another setting using frame repeat to get from 30fps to 60fps (AABBCCDD). I can't see how there could be any third interpolation setting for 30fps content going up to 60fps so if there is a third MotionFlow setting available with 30fps content, it probably has no effect...


And I have no idea what all of this means with streaming content from YouTube. From Netflix or Amazon, movie content should be coming in at 24fps (or 24fps scaled up to 60fps using 3:2 pulldown) and TV content should be coming in at 30fps.


I think you need to nail down the frame rate of your incoming video sources if you want to understand more clearly what the various MotionFlow settings are doing...


-fafrd
Well I don't have motionflow, I just used that name as an example. I have samsung's Clear Motion Rate 120. There is no motion smoothing setting, it is all built in and set on by default it seems. Basically the 120 is the measurement of the tv performance. I'd much rather have an actual setting for interpolation, rather than the tv just doing things on its own, bt it's a cheap $150 tv so I shouldn't complain.

OK, well if you can't set it then it is all black magic and you juts have to accept what they give you. As wfer has already stated, it should be that LOW minimizes the use of interpolation and HIGH maximizes it...

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OK, well if you can't set it then it is all black magic and you juts have to accept what they give you. As wfer has already stated, it should be that LOW minimizes the use of interpolation and HIGH maximizes it...

-fafrd

I don't understand how you can minimize interpolation, it inserts frames in between existing ones. How does it reduce the effect if it's still doing the same thing? It must interpolate every other few frames to reduce the soap opera look, that's my guess.

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I don't understand how you can minimize interpolation, it inserts frames in between existing ones. How does it reduce the effect if it's still doing the same thing? It must interpolate every other few frames to reduce the soap opera look, that's my guess.

Are you sure you have a 60hz TV? Motion interpolation is only possible on 120hz & up LCDs.

I seen some manufacturers claims 120hz on 60hz sets, which was just marketing B.S. & not true at all.

I also remember some TV's when this tech was still new, had the motion interpolation set to on by default & not being able to turn it off without going into the service menu.
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Are you sure you have a 60hz TV? Motion interpolation is only possible on 120hz & up LCDs.

I seen some manufacturers claims 120hz on 60hz sets, which was just marketing B.S. & not true at all.

I also remember some TV's when this tech was still new, had the motion interpolation set to on by default & not being able to turn it off without going into the service menu.

well my tv has a weird fast forwarding effect on movies it seems, but not intense like setting motionflow to high where everything is smooth. You can see a difference from a tv with no motion enhancers or turned off vs mine which speeds it up a bit.

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I think I know how my TV works now. It interpolates frames when it detects a 30fps signal, since it's a 60hz tv, and 60hz tvs don't support 24fps/hz natively, so it interpolates 24fps content through a 30fps signal or cap since 30fps is an equal divide of 60hz refresh rate. I believe this is how it works. Not sure 100%

 

 

 

 

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I think I know how my TV works now. It interpolates frames when it detects a 30fps signal, since it's a 60hz tv, and 60hz tvs don't support 24fps/hz natively, so it interpolates 24fps content through a 30fps signal or cap since 30fps is an equal divide of 60hz refresh rate. I believe this is how it works. Not sure 100%




TV UN22F5000AF with CMR 120

That makes sense (for 30fps source to 60-fps refresh). And the usual way to convert 24fps film content would be through 3:2 pulldown: AAABBCCCDDEEEFF (frame repeat sequence) with convert 24fps to 60fps...

The only alternative for 24fps film content would be to use single-frame motion interpolation: AA1BBCCDDEE3FF where 1=A/B, 2=C/D, 3-E/F (and X/Y means single frame motion interpolated frame between A and B source frames)

or alternative 3-frame motion interpolation: A123BC456D789E where '2' is the motion interpolated frame between source frames A and B, '1' is the motion-interpolated frame between source frame A and generated frame '2', '3' if the motion-interpolated frame between generated frame '2' and source frame 'B', etc...
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I think I know how my TV works now. It interpolates frames when it detects a 30fps signal, since it's a 60hz tv, and 60hz tvs don't support 24fps/hz natively, so it interpolates 24fps content through a 30fps signal or cap since 30fps is an equal divide of 60hz refresh rate. I believe this is how it works. Not sure 100%




TV UN22F5000AF with CMR 120

That makes sense (for 30fps source to 60-fps refresh). And the usual way to convert 24fps film content would be through 3:2 pulldown: AAABBCCCDDEEEFF (frame repeat sequence) with convert 24fps to 60fps...

 

FPS?  Careful with "FPS" and "pulldown".  If you got this information from the wikipedia page on telecine, be aware, that page is flawed.  There's an implicit notion within it that 2-3 (AKA 2-3-3-2 or 3-2 or 3:2) pulldown has to do with repeating frames and it does not.  "Pulldown" has to do with fields only, and it's related directly to interlaced (and you're talking about progressive).  That "60fps" you're talking about is actually "60Hz".

 

Here's a much better explanation of it:

https://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/usermanual/index.html#chapter=E%26section=2%26tasks=true


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post #28 of 28 Old 03-12-2014, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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My samsung UN22f5000AF TV renders HD moving images pretty clearly, but it helped I upped the sharpness to 30. Watching HD content on this TV looks amazing. If it does get anywhere close, even the slightest to a soap opera, it's usually at night time scenes and peoples heads are up close or just some scenes may look smoother in general mostly at night or darker scenes. I think it uses something similar to sony's motionflow "standard" mode. Watching content on netlflix from what I tell, any kind of motion enhancers/interpolation is mostly used for making the picture clear, and doesn't give me that ultra high fast framerate effect aka soap opera effect. Like I said, it's similar to motionflow standard, where it looks slightly interpolated. Since it's a 60hz TV, I can't expect it to have AMP, where you can change how it interpolates, but the processor is built into my TV by default to give it some performance I guess. I do like it even though it doesn't seem to have that super high framerate effect as I wanted it to have. Oh well, maybe when I get an actual 120hz or 240hz tv :).

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