Toshiba 55L7400U - Page 17 - AVS Forum
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post #481 of 905 Old 05-16-2014, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Exactly. There are so many assumptions and calculated guesswork posted about this product.

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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

The most honest answer is that we don't know and I think you agree with that.
*Ding* *ding* *ding*...

We have two winners. proyal has been busy posting all over that it has 120+ zones (one per presumed LED). There's absolutely no evidence that that is the case. In fact, all the writing on the wall says that's not the case.

I swear the features on the L7400U have gone through the game of telephone. It seems like each new person to the thread interested in the L7400U embellishes the features a little more to the point where there are going to be L7400U buyers who will be sorely disappointed with what's in the box vs. what they thought they were getting. Of course Toshiba isn't exactly doing themselves any favors either with the near vacuum of technical details they've setup. You can read the product manual, look at all the information in the CES press release, and read the product web page and still not have much of a clue about what the TV is or can do. The Japanese product pages for the Z8, Z9X, J8, etc are all very detailed and no one know which features have or have not been included in the US variants.

What a mess...
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post #482 of 905 Old 05-16-2014, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post


*Ding* *ding* *ding*...

We have two winners. proyal has been busy posting all over that it has 120+ zones (one per presumed LED). There's absolutely no evidence that that is the case. In fact, all the writing on the wall says that's not the case.

I swear the features on the L7400U have gone through the game of telephone. It seems like each new person to the thread interested in the L7400U embellishes the features a little more to the point where there are going to be L7400U buyers who will be sorely disappointed with what's in the box vs. what they thought they were getting. Of course Toshiba isn't exactly doing themselves any favors either with the near vacuum of technical details they've setup. You can read the product manual, look at all the information in the CES press release, and read the product web page and still not have much of a clue about what the TV is or can do. The Japanese product pages for the Z8, Z9X, J8, etc are all very detailed and no one know which features have or have not been included in the US variants.

What a mess...


+1. Until a reputable calibrator puts a meter to this TV all is suspect. However, owner impressions are valued and much appreciated.
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post #483 of 905 Old 05-16-2014, 10:01 PM
 
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Here is Toshiba's answer :

 

Hi,

 

It’s 8 bit.

 

 

Thank you,

Toshiba Direct Customer Service

 

Should not make up things even if you publicist

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post #484 of 905 Old 05-16-2014, 10:50 PM
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The one thing that we know about this television is that it's the flagship of their 2014 1080p line, one of only three FALD televisions they're offering in the US. It's their very best shot at regaining some decent US market presence and techie mind share. Hopefully it's as impressive as they hope it is.

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post #485 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

The one thing that we know about this television is that it's the flagship of their 2014 1080p line, one of only three FALD televisions they're offering in the US. It's their very best shot at regaining some decent US market presence and techie mind share. Hopefully it's as impressive as they hope it is.

Perhaps it'll be reminiscent of Sony's flagship 1080p, the KDL-W900A, from last year. This "you can have any size you want as long as it's 55 inches" TV was a noticeably better performer than their other 1080p displays for much of the year. I'm not completely skeptical of the L7400. wink.gif

I'm not comparing the Sony to the Toshiba in terms of PQ but in terms of how this particular TV stood out from their other 1080p models.

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post #486 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 03:58 AM
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thread cleanup again: we are working on situation

AVS has a block function: you can use it (without posting that you are doing it) to block seeing the posts of a member: please use it rather than quote or respond to a problematic poster

once again: MOVE ON or you will be asked to leave the thread

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post #487 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 04:03 AM
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Anyway i am interested in the viewing angles too.

 

I saw VA panel with OK angles and VA panel with extremely small angles.

I also saw IPS with huge angles and others almost close to VA angles !!!

 

Tiny VA angles.

Quote:
Another weak area for the AX800U is in horizontal viewing angle. Viewing angle—or how far from center you can watch a TV before the picture begins to be washed out—is especially important for a larger TV like this one; as it stands, it's more prone to be wall-mounted, where viewing angle is especially important. We measured a total viewing angle of 24°, or ±12° from center to either side within the Home theater picture mode. This is a disappointing result to be sure, and something that buyers should consider prior to purchase.

 

Panasonic-AX800U-Viewing-Angle.jpg

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post #488 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 04:10 AM
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An almost decent VA (closer to 90 degrees)

 

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The UN50H6350 tested with an above-average total viewing angle of 74°, or ±37° from the center to either side of the screen. This is more viewing flexibility than either the F6300 or F6800 from last year, as well as Vizio's 2014 E-Series. Combined with the TV's ability to swivel, viewers should have no problem watching the H6350 from multiple locations around the room.

 

Samsung-UN50F6350-Viewing-Angle.jpg

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post #489 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 04:11 AM
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A bad IPS with almost 90 degrees.

 

Quote:

 

We’ve been reviewing a basketful of plasmas the last few weeks, and have been spoiled by their huge viewing angles; it’s easy to forget that LCDs just can’t do the same thing.

For what it's worth, the DT60 sports an above average viewing angle. Viewing angle is an important aspect to consider when deciding where to place a TV, whether to wall mount, etc. The DT60’s total viewing angle of 88° (or 44° from center to either side) gives a pretty good amount of off-angle viewing flexibility, which means you can plop your own self and some other couch potatoes down for group watching.

 

Panasonic_DT60ViewingAngle.jpg

 

 

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post #490 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 04:14 AM
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Another super small angles from VA :

 

Quote:
Horizontal viewing angle is an especially important test category for big TVs like this one. LCD panels typically don't look great during off-angle viewing, suffering from either contrast degradation or color shifting. The R520A is not the best choice for wall-mounting therefore—buyer beware.

 

Like most LCDs, the R520A's picture degrades during off-angle viewing.

 

We tested a total viewing angle of 39°, or ±19.50° from center to either side. This could be a problem if you're a family looking to stretch out around this big 60-inch display, but shouldn't be smaller parties of two or three people.

 

viewing-angle.jpg

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post #491 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 04:19 AM
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A better than average IPS, although not vertically.

 

Quote:
 

Viewing angle is an often misunderstood and mis-advertised spec within the displays world; often, TV manufacturers claim viewing angles approximating ±80°, which for most panels is a far cry from the truth. However, the WT60 tested with a very respectable viewing angle for an LCD, trouncing the competition.

 

  • WT60-viewingangle.jpg

 

 

Put up against two Samsung LCDs (flagship and entry-level) and Toshiba's flagship, the WT60 boasted the widest horizontal viewing angle by far—a total of 108° (±54°) is much better than average for this panel type. This result means you can comfortably watch the WT60 with a mid-sized group of people without major contrast or color shifting. As a side note, we'd again like to caution consumers planning to wall-mount the WT60: Like the plasma VT60, the WT60 suffers from bizarre darkening at off-angle vertical viewing, so wall-mount at eye level if you must.

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post #492 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 07:11 AM
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Had a fantastic little chat with Toshiba Direct Customer Support this morning about dimming zones and color depth. I was distracted during the last part of the conversation (I love my kids!) so I missed the part where she didn't answer 4:4:4 chroma, but the short answer is: 512 Dimming Zones, 10 bit color. Full conversation attached for posterity.

ScreenShot2014-05-17at9.10.57AM.png 317k .png file
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post #493 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 07:31 AM
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How can the TV have 512 dimming zones when it most likely doesn't even have 512 LEDs? Also, wouldn't 512 dimming zones make it have the most zones or close to the most of any FALD tv to date? I highly doubt Toshiba magically accomplished that feat in their $1100 TV.

Sounds like yet another example of a CSR not knowing what they are talking about just like the CSR who earlier told a person the TV has active 3D or even 3D in general.

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post #494 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 07:42 AM
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If this is true we are in for a treat. If Toshiba is using the Samsung method of counting zones then that is another story altogether. Samsung offers Micro dimming in 3 flavors Standard,Pro and Ultimate. Standard offers a more refined Dynamic contrast effect to achieve 300 "Virtual zones", Pro offers 300 zones plus color,contrast and sharpness enhancement and Ultimate is 600 "Virtual" with fine pixel tuning and cinema black. If my understanding of how this works is Cinema black is their only real hardware based dimming scheme, turning off the the LED zones at the top and bottom of the screen during widescreen material.
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post #495 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo View Post

How can the TV have 512 dimming zones when it most likely doesn't even have 512 LEDs? Also, wouldn't 512 dimming zones make it have the most zones or close to the most of any FALD tv to date? I highly doubt Toshiba magically accomplished that feat in their $1100 TV.

Sounds like yet another example of a CSR not knowing what they are talking about just like the CSR who earlier told a person the TV has active 3D or even 3D in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Shankenstein View Post

If this is true we are in for a treat. If Toshiba is using the Samsung method of counting zones then that is another story altogether. Samsung offers Micro dimming in 3 flavors Standard,Pro and Ultimate. Standard offers a more refined Dynamic contrast effect to achieve 300 "Virtual zones", Pro offers 300 zones plus color,contrast and sharpness enhancement and Ultimate is 600 "Virtual" with fine pixel tuning and cinema black. If my understanding of how this works is Cinema black is their only real hardware based dimming scheme, turning off the the LED zones at the top and bottom of the screen during widescreen material.

I think it's unlikely that there are half as many LEDs as the number of so-called "zones" I was quoted. This "Quantum Black Local Dimming" thing is very likely to be a combination of physical dimming and pixel tuning. So, maybe 64 physical zones, each divided into 8 virtual "sub-zones" which are tuned separately? Perhaps 128/4?

For me, I'm still about 51:49 on this set vs a 2014 Vizio M. If I don't lose patience and just take a gamble, I'm going to hold out for Bodnar input lag scores and viewing angle assessment (in either case, i think I'm both winning and losing, coming from my Samsung PN50B860).
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post #496 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdyson View Post

Had a fantastic little chat with Toshiba Direct Customer Support this morning about dimming zones and color depth. I was distracted during the last part of the conversation (I love my kids!) so I missed the part where she didn't answer 4:4:4 chroma, but the short answer is: 512 Dimming Zones, 10 bit color. Full conversation attached for posterity.

ScreenShot2014-05-17at9.10.57AM.png 317k .png file
Oh yeah, the sales guy I overheard at the store says it has 2048 zones and a 12 bit panel. wink.gif
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post #497 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Oh yeah, the sales guy I overheard at the store says it has 2048 zones and a 12 bit panel. wink.gif

If you look at the transcript, it's clear she was quoting some reference. Hardly the sort of fantastical hear-say you're implying. The Zones count is clearly marketing-speak, like a contrast ratio of A BILLION:1, based on some native figure multiplied by some enhance my factor. It doesn't give us the native number, but 64 or 128 are reasonable assumptions.
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post #498 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jpdyson View Post

If you look at the transcript, it's clear she was quoting some reference. Hardly the sort of fantastical hear-say you're implying. The Zones count is clearly marketing-speak, like a contrast ratio of A BILLION:1, based on some native figure multiplied by some enhance my factor. It doesn't give us the native number, but 64 or 128 are reasonable assumptions.
Zones are not marketing speak in a FALD display. There is underlying hardware behind the LCD panel that has to make it happen. You can't have more zones than LEDs.

I wouldn't trust a word from that Online chat beyond "my name is Donna" and that might not even be true. I seem to recall one of them previously saying it's a 3D TV and we know that's not true.

Hopefully someone who has bought the set will do the test I mentioned in post #451 to determine the real number of zones.
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post #499 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Zones are not marketing speak in a FALD display. There is underlying hardware behind the LCD panel that has to make it happen. You can't have more zones than LEDs.

True, true, true. But THESE are "Quantum Black Dimming Zones", which is a bit like "Dynamic Contrast Ratio". Hear me out. There is a real, physical contrast ratio, and then an effective/dynamic one based on processing that multiplies that number. We know it's trickery, but it's often quite effective. Likewise, there are real, physical dimming zones, and then there are Quantum Black zones based on processing. So they can say that they have divided up the panel into 512 zones for dimming purposes, with (for example) 128 physical LEDs in controlling a single physical zone, which is then divided into 4 zones with some processing. That's why I'm saying the number of "Quantum Black Dimming Zones" is all marketing speak/trickery (but that doesn't mean it's ineffective).

Quote:
I wouldn't trust a word from that Online chat beyond "my name is Donna" and that might not even be true. I seem to recall one of them previously saying it's a 3D TV and we know that's not true.

I get the skepticism (better than most, I think). I've seen it first hand, as I generally design the kinds of things (and accompanying documentation) about which level one support has to answer questions. Certain things will be asked in a very predictable way, so you put certain phrases in your documentation to help unfamiliar people find these answers (keywords or tags). In my experience, this smacks of direct quotes from documentation (down to the unnatural grammar from trying to plug a fragment of a sentence into your own words). Was she pulling from the correct model reference? Probably; I tried to make it easy by providing a model number.

Quote:
Hopefully someone who has bought the set will do the test I mentioned in post #451 to determine the real number of zones.

If I buy this set, hooking it up to a computer and attempting to count the zones will be a day-one activity.
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post #500 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Shankenstein View Post

If this is true we are in for a treat. If Toshiba is using the Samsung method of counting zones then that is another story altogether. Samsung offers Micro dimming in 3 flavors Standard,Pro and Ultimate. Standard offers a more refined Dynamic contrast effect to achieve 300 "Virtual zones", Pro offers 300 zones plus color,contrast and sharpness enhancement and Ultimate is 600 "Virtual" with fine pixel tuning and cinema black. If my understanding of how this works is Cinema black is their only real hardware based dimming scheme, turning off the the LED zones at the top and bottom of the screen during widescreen material.

You may be on to something (except for Cinema Black as that feature is available on televisions with software based dimming schemes). Even Samsung's hardware based dimming scheme is pseudo dimming since you can't have true local dimming from an edge-lit set. Finding out there is 512 zones may sound great initially but if true it sounds like 512 virtual zones from a software based dimming scheme.

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post #501 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 09:37 AM
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Oh how I wish I lived in the U.S just for the next week simply so I could get this set and run it through some tests and hopefully end all/most of the speculation in this thread. I am between this set and the Sharp 60SQ (which I have experience with) but at this point in time I'd simply buy this Toshiba regardless just to end all the speculation. I have nothing against the actual members speculating as my issue is just a general frustration at there being nothing concrete and as Stereodude said, the telephone game of hype/info. I put this all on Toshiba for their generally piss poor promotion/documentation of this product.
Stereodude likes this.

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post #502 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rlindo View Post

Oh how I wish I lived in the U.S just for the next week simply so I could get this set and run it through some tests and hopefully end all/most of the speculation in this thread. I have nothing against the actual members speculating as my issue is just a general frustration at there being nothing concrete and as Stereodude said, the telephone game of hype/info. I put this all on Toshiba for their generally piss poor promotion/documentation of this product.

Who is usually first with a professional review? CNEt, SoundVision, Trusted Review? I saw on Amazon they had 10 available and now have 9, so someone brought one and we should start getting customer impressions soon.
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post #503 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by quern View Post

I just got my call that my set will deliver tomorrow afternoon. I'm looking forward to setting it up and playing with it after the kids fall asleep (and my wife).

You'll be the hero to me and many others if/when you do this. biggrin.gif

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post #504 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

Even Samsung's hardware based dimming scheme is pseudo dimming since you can't have true local dimming from an edge-lit set.
Well, it can be as "local" as the dimming scheme Vizio is using on their larger E-series sets. Divide the panel in half and have horizontal dimming strips.
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post #505 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by rlindo View Post

I put this all on Toshiba for their generally piss poor promotion/documentation of this product.
It's like I've previously said... It seems like Toshiba doesn't really want to sell these sets in North America.

Compare the Japanese pages for the Z8 or Z9X with what we get in the US for the L7400U.
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post #506 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 11:06 AM
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post



*Ding* *ding* *ding*...

We have two winners. proyal has been busy posting all over that it has 120+ zones (one per presumed LED). There's absolutely no evidence that that is the case. In fact, all the writing on the wall says that's not the case.

I swear the features on the L7400U have gone through the game of telephone. It seems like each new person to the thread interested in the L7400U embellishes the features a little more to the point where there are going to be L7400U buyers who will be sorely disappointed with what's in the box vs. what they thought they were getting. Of course Toshiba isn't exactly doing themselves any favors either with the near vacuum of technical details they've setup. You can read the product manual, look at all the information in the CES press release, and read the product web page and still not have much of a clue about what the TV is or can do. The Japanese product pages for the Z8, Z9X, J8, etc are all very detailed and no one know which features have or have not been included in the US variants.

What a mess...

I am not making things up.

 

A couple of page behind they show you that the 47" has around 91 zones. Real zones. And the math is there that proves this set should have around 124 zones.

 

Take  a good look. The ZL1 had 512 zones.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1525383/toshiba-55l7400u/180#post_24704126

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1525383/toshiba-55l7400u/210#post_24711780

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1525383/toshiba-55l7400u/240#post_24712306

 

But if there are 91 zones on the 47" then the 55" has 124.6145 zones.

Because all it matters is actual surface area

55" in area is precisely 36.94% larger than 47" so 91 x 36.94 / 100 = 33.6154 more zones for the 55" meaning 91 + 33 (or 34) = 124 (or 125) zones to achieve same quality.

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post #507 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 11:07 AM
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Yeah, all of this overhyping and glorified spec talk may sound good on paper, but watch the L7400 turn out to be a total bust in CNET's review with a depressing 75ms of input lag. tongue.gif
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post #508 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proyal View Post

Quote:
I am not making things up.

A couple of page behind they show you that the 47" has around 91 zones. Real zones. And the math is there that proves this set should have around 124 zones.

Take  a good look. The ZL1 had 512 zones.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1525383/toshiba-55l7400u/180#post_24704126
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1525383/toshiba-55l7400u/210#post_24711780
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1525383/toshiba-55l7400u/240#post_24712306

But if there are 91 zones on the 47" then the 55" has 124.6145 zones.
Because all it matters is actual surface area
55" in area is precisely 36.94% larger than 47" so 91 x 36.94 / 100 = 33.6154 more zones for the 55" meaning 91 + 33 (or 34) = 124 (or 125) zones to achieve same quality.

What I see is a mock up cut out of TV with around 96 LEDs

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post #509 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by proyal View Post

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I am not making things up.

A couple of page behind they show you that the 47" has around 91 zones. Real zones. And the math is there that proves this set should have around 124 zones.

Take  a good look. The ZL1 had 512 zones.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1525383/toshiba-55l7400u/180#post_24704126
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1525383/toshiba-55l7400u/210#post_24711780
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1525383/toshiba-55l7400u/240#post_24712306

But if there are 91 zones on the 47" then the 55" has 124.6145 zones.
Because all it matters is actual surface area
55" in area is precisely 36.94% larger than 47" so 91 x 36.94 / 100 = 33.6154 more zones for the 55" meaning 91 + 33 (or 34) = 124 (or 125) zones to achieve same quality.
I didn't exactly say you were just making things up, but I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding what the Japanese models do. It doesn't really matter how many LEDs the backlight has. I'm not disputing that it might have ~124 LEDs. That just caps the max possible number of zones since it can't have more zones than LEDs. It could still have less zones than LEDs. Please bear in mind that Toshiba was very clear to draw the distinction between the Z9X and Z8 models in terms of local backlight dimming capability. The Z9X has individual control over each LED. The Z8 does not have that capability. That would mean there are at least 2 LEDs per zone on the Z8. If we accept the L7400U has the same backlight capability as the Z8 that pretty much limits the 55L7400U to no more than 64 zones (assuming your LED estimate for a 55" is correct) and it could have less than that if the LEDs were grouped in 3s or 4s (per zone).
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post #510 of 905 Old 05-17-2014, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

You may be on to something (except for Cinema Black as that feature is available on televisions with software based dimming schemes). Even Samsung's hardware based dimming scheme is pseudo dimming since you can't have true local dimming from an edge-lit set. Finding out there is 512 zones may sound great initially but if true it sounds like 512 virtual zones from a software based dimming scheme.
The 8000 series and above have vertical array of LED'S the left and right of the display. On those particular models the LED'S in the four corners turn off during wide screen material to guarantee solid black bars increasing perceive contrast as well. I would assume any flashlighting would be remedied by turning this feature on as well since no light would be emitting from said corners. That's what I was referring to as actual hardware dimming.
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