Toshiba 4K 65L9400/65Z9X and Vizio 65" Reference Series 10-bit Panel - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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This is the one you have been waiting for. Approximately 600,000 yen or $6000 USD for MSRP. Mid-May release in Japan.



Look at the number of LEDs it will use. I think 32 x 12 configuration for 384 individual zones.



Brightness 700nit. Don't know if the Vizio will be using the same superbright Toshiba LEDs though



Google translated

A liquid crystal panel, one of the 84/65/58/50 type in 4K resolution of 3,840 × 2,160 dot, 84-inch is the IPS system, 65/58/50 The Model that VA system. Video engine "REGZA Engine CEVO 4K".

Enhancements in maximum image quality of surface Z9X series "sense of sparkle, contrast" and "color". For this purpose, it is mounted numerous direct-type LED backlight technology of the new development, and wide color gamut panel, the latest image processing technology and new devices.

By adopting the high brightness wide color gamut "Direct LED backlight" in direct-type was improved by about 30% in the model Z8X ratio conventional color gamut as "4K direct Pure Color Panel", 65/58/50Z9X is, color I was greatly improved texture and expressions, brightness, power of expression, such as contrast.

Full article here:

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20140414_641525.html
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post #2 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

This is the one you have been waiting for. Approximately 600,000 yen or $6000 USD for MSRP. Mid-May release in Japan.



Look at the number of LEDs it will use. I think 32 x 12 configuration for 384 individual zones.



Brightness 700nit. Don't know if the Vizio will be using the same superbright Toshiba LEDs though



Google translated

A liquid crystal panel, one of the 84/65/58/50 type in 4K resolution of 3,840 × 2,160 dot, 84-inch is the IPS system, 65/58/50 The Model that VA system. Video engine "REGZA Engine CEVO 4K".

Enhancements in maximum image quality of surface Z9X series "sense of sparkle, contrast" and "color". For this purpose, it is mounted numerous direct-type LED backlight technology of the new development, and wide color gamut panel, the latest image processing technology and new devices.

By adopting the high brightness wide color gamut "Direct LED backlight" in direct-type was improved by about 30% in the model Z8X ratio conventional color gamut as "4K direct Pure Color Panel", 65/58/50Z9X is, color I was greatly improved texture and expressions, brightness, power of expression, such as contrast.

Full article here:

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20140414_641525.html

Thanks for finding this. 384 zones is the same as the number of dimming zones in the Vizio Reference Series. The Reference is an 800 Nit backlight, so it is probably the same backlight driven to be even a but brighter in order to support Dolby Vision HDR.

If this is out in Japan in May, that could bode well for the 65" Vizio Reference Series coming out this year and hopefully earlier than most are forecasting as well.

L9400U looks like a definite contender - cant wait to see first reviews in Japan biggrin.gif
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post #3 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I expect the Vizio to be cheaper here in the US. For one, US prices are always cheaper. Vizio is also probably going to get a bigger volume discount because of the number of raw panels it will order. Also, this Toshiba appears to have 3D. Maybe the Vizio will also, but that would be weird for them to say they are abandoning 3D for their 2014 model line up and then for it to appear on their flagship. My guess on the Vizio is a $4995 MSRP with a a street price around $4500 and a release date around August-September.
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

This is the one you have been waiting for. Approximately 600,000 yen or $6000 USD for MSRP. Mid-May release in Japan.



Look at the number of LEDs it will use. I think 32 x 12 configuration for 384 individual zones.



Brightness 700nit. Don't know if the Vizio will be using the same superbright Toshiba LEDs though



Google translated

A liquid crystal panel, one of the 84/65/58/50 type in 4K resolution of 3,840 × 2,160 dot, 84-inch is the IPS system, 65/58/50 The Model that VA system. Video engine "REGZA Engine CEVO 4K".

Enhancements in maximum image quality of surface Z9X series "sense of sparkle, contrast" and "color". For this purpose, it is mounted numerous direct-type LED backlight technology of the new development, and wide color gamut panel, the latest image processing technology and new devices.

By adopting the high brightness wide color gamut "Direct LED backlight" in direct-type was improved by about 30% in the model Z8X ratio conventional color gamut as "4K direct Pure Color Panel", 65/58/50Z9X is, color I was greatly improved texture and expressions, brightness, power of expression, such as contrast.

Full article here:

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20140414_641525.html

I counted the LED zones and it is a 24 x 12 matrix, not 32 x 12. That means 288 dimming zones and not 384 and also that the BLU cannot be the same as that used by the Vizio Reference Series. 288 dimming zones is nothing to scoff at, so hopefully the set approach Sharp-Elite class performance...
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post #5 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 10:31 AM
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I expect the Vizio to be cheaper here in the US. For one, US prices are always cheaper. Vizio is also probably going to get a bigger volume discount because on the number of raw panels it will order. Also, this Toshiba appears to have 3D. Maybe the Vizio will also, but that would be weird for them to say they are abandoning 3D for their 2014 model line up and then for it to appear on their flagship. My guess on the Vizio is a $4995 MSRP with a a street price around $4500 and a release date around August-September.

Just added a post - the L94500U and Vizio Reference can not be the same BLU (288 versus 384 dimming zones). It would not surprise me at all to discover that the all of the Vizio 2014 TVs have the LCD polarizers in place to support passive 3D since they don't add cost and are practically there by default these days, but they don't have the necessary firmware to support 3D.

So the fact that the Toshiba L9400U supports 3D and the Vizio Reference Series does not is not enough to conclude that the panels are different, but the different number of dimming zones is (at least for the BLU).
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post #6 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

I counted the LED zones and it is a 24 x 12 matrix, not 32 x 12. That means 288 dimming zones and not 384 and also that the BLU cannot be the same as that used by the Vizio Reference Series. 288 dimming zones is nothing to scoff at, so hopefully the set approach Sharp-Elite class performance...

12 is correct for the vertical axis, but where are you counting only 24 for the horizontal axis? That second angled pic is showing a representation of the BLU on only half the screen. Almost positive the 32x12 is correct.
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post #7 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

I counted the LED zones and it is a 24 x 12 matrix, not 32 x 12. That means 288 dimming zones and not 384 and also that the BLU cannot be the same as that used by the Vizio Reference Series. 288 dimming zones is nothing to scoff at, so hopefully the set approach Sharp-Elite class performance...

12 is correct for the vertical axis, but where are you counting only 24 for the horizontal axis? That second angled pic is showing a representation of the BLU on only half the screen. Almost positive the 32x12 is correct.

You can more accurately estimate the number of LEDs in the obscured area from this flat-on picture:



No way it is 32 across - half the screen width is only 12.
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post #8 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

12 is correct for the vertical axis, but where are you counting only 24 for the horizontal axis? That second angled pic is showing a representation of the BLU on only half the screen. Almost positive the 32x12 is correct.
Get out your ruler, measure, and interpolate. tongue.gif It seems to be 12x24. However, it's not clear what size display that is. That cutaway may not be the 65". The other picture showing a completely exposed backlight at an angle has 24 horizontal LEDs visible also. Admittedly in the exposed backlight picture you can't see both edges of the display so it could have more than 24.
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post #9 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

You can more accurately estimate the number of LEDs in the obscured area from this flat-on picture:



No way it is 32 across - half the screen width is only 12.

Ah yes, now I see the confusion. That pic is not from the 65" model. It is from the smaller set. In the article they say the 65" has at least 300-350, but more likely the same as the Vizio at 384.


Also, supposedly the 3D is active and not passive like you say, but who knows as the google translations are never accurate.
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

I counted the LED zones and it is a 24 x 12 matrix, not 32 x 12. That means 288 dimming zones and not 384 and also that the BLU cannot be the same as that used by the Vizio Reference Series. 288 dimming zones is nothing to scoff at, so hopefully the set approach Sharp-Elite class performance...

12 is correct for the vertical axis, but where are you counting only 24 for the horizontal axis? That second angled pic is showing a representation of the BLU on only half the screen. Almost positive the 32x12 is correct.

What made you think it was 32 wide?
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post #11 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

You can more accurately estimate the number of LEDs in the obscured area from this flat-on picture:



No way it is 32 across - half the screen width is only 12.

Ah yes, now I see the confusion. That pic is not from the 65" model. It is from the smaller set. In the article they say the 65" has at least 300-350, but more likely the same as the Vizio at 384.

OK, so something in the text refers to 300-350 dimming zones in the 65" L9400U.

The Vizio has 384 and from the way the scanning backlight is organized, I'm pretty sure it is organized as 16 vertical X 24 horizontal.

So on the L9400U, even the 12 vertical on the 65" is not certain.

I'm not sure why they would have said 300-350 if they actually had a full 384.
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post #12 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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What made you think it was 32 wide?

I saw a different picture in another press release I am trying to find, also the fact that both Vizio and Tosihba are getting the panel from AUO makes it more likley than not. Now the actual LEDs they use in array might be different and certainly the processing, but I dont see AUO making a separate 65" 4K panel for both Vizio and Toshiba that's only difference would be 30 or so less LEDs. What ever the actual number, even if only 350, it is ton more than Vizio's 65" P series with what 64 zones? Is it 64 or 96 on the 65" P? Either way this has a shitload more.
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Ah yes, now I see the confusion. That pic is not from the 65" model. It is from the smaller set.
How do you know that?
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post #14 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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How do you know that?

Because 288 is not more than 300-350.
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post #15 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

What made you think it was 32 wide?

I saw a different picture in another press release I am trying to find, also the fact that both Vizio and Tosihba are getting the panel from AUO makes it more likley than not. Now the actual LEDs they use in array might be different and certainly the processing, but I dont see AUO making a separate 65" 4K panel for both Vizio and Toshiba that's only difference would be 30 or so less LEDs. What ever the actual number, even if only 350, it is ton more than Vizio's 65" P series with what 64 zones? Is it 64 or 96 on the 65" P? Either way this has a shitload more.

These are all of the 65" 4K panels offered by AUO: http://www.panelook.com/sizmodlist.php?order=panel_id&by=desc&production_state=1&sizes[]=64.5&resolution_pixels=38402160&brand_family=AUO

All of the 'panel' type are edge-lit, so only the 'CELL' type (without backlight) could be used by Vizio and Toshiba. And they may well each have their own BLUs.

The number of LEDs and the number of dimming zones are not necessarily related. There can not be more dimming zones than there are LEDs, but the number of LEDs used in the BLUs for the Vizio E Series and M Series, for example, are probably identical despite the fact that the E Series has those LEDs organized into half the number lo local dimming zones than the M Series.

BLU organization can usually be understood from action rate, so if the translation says anything about the effective refresh rate of the L9400U, that may allow us to figure out the likely backlight organization.

Because the Vizio Reference Series Clear Action Rate of 1800 almost certainly requires a scanning backlight with 8 horizontal segments, the R Series has to have some factor of 8 for the number of vertical LEDs. So the 384 dimming zones could either be organized as 8 vertical X 48 horizontal, 16 vertical X 24 horizontal, or 24 vertical x 16 horizontal. 16V x 24H is the closest to square dimming zones so it is the natural choice.

With 12 LEDs vertical, the 55" Toshiba L9400U probably has a scanning backlight with at most 6 segments (or 4 segments or 3 segments or 2 segments).
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Because 288 is not more than 300-350.
I went back and took a closer look. Judging from the relative size of the stand to the panel it seems like that's the 58, not the 65".
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With 12 LEDs vertical, the 55" Toshiba L9400U probably has a scanning backlight with at most 6 segments (or 4 segments or 3 segments or 2 segments).

There is no 55" Toshiba L9400U. They have 50/58/65" over there. They also have the 84ZX9, but that is using an LG panel I think. Honestly, some of the pics I found were not tagged, so I am not sure anymore, but I think that may be the 58" set with the 288 zones. The 65" would have 26% more area and if you assume the same saturation would put the zones around 360. So I guess we will have to wait and see for the US release.
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post #18 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 11:50 AM
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With 12 LEDs vertical, the 55" Toshiba L9400U probably has a scanning backlight with at most 6 segments (or 4 segments or 3 segments or 2 segments).

There is no 55" Toshiba L9400U. They have 50/58/65" over there. They also have the 84ZX9, but that is using an LG panel I think. Honestly, some of the pics I found were not tagged, so I am not sure anymore, but I think that may be the 58" set with the 288 zones. The 65" would have 26% more area and if you assume the same saturation would put the zones around 360. So I guess we will have to wait and see for the US release.

Yeah, my bad - the L7400U had a 55" but the L9400U was announced at CES as having only 58" and 65" FALD panels.

Have you seen any specs regarding the effective refresh rate of the 65" L9400U? Or Clear Motion Rate or whatever mumbo-jumbo Toshiba is using for backlight scanning action rate?

If the L9400U is releasing in Japan in May, the user manual should provide some insight.
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post #19 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, my bad - the L7400U had a 55" but the L9400U was announced at CES as having only 58" and 65" FALD panels.

Have you seen any specs regarding the effective refresh rate of the 65" L9400U? Or Clear Motion Rate or whatever mumbo-jumbo Toshiba is using for backlight scanning action rate?

If the L9400U is releasing in Japan in May, the user manual should provide some insight.

I believe I read something about "Smooth Direct Motion 480"
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post #20 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 12:18 PM
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"Game support also strengthened point. Of the new deployment in the "new 4K game Turbo", in 4K/2K game, geared towards low latency of 0.6 frame delay of REGZA fastest ever (about 10ms). By the read memory optimization, to approach the theoretical limit as much as possible of the delay in the speed panel (0.5 frame), and minimize the stress of the game when playing, such as in an action game. 3D games also delay reduction, about 1.1 frames (about 18.3ms. 720/60Hz input), thereby suppressing 1.15 frame (about 19.2ms) to use the interpolation frame even "smooth game mode".

 In addition, suppression of the delay sound as well as video. It is delay (about 15ms) 0.9 frame voice low delay mode of karaoke for the "Game Karaoke".

 4K game corresponding PC or strengthening. In HDMI input, as well as 4K, was formally corresponding to the input of 2,560 × 1,440 dots / 60p adoption cases are often on the PC game. By the video signal processing of ALL 4:4:4, and that reproduce beautifully of high-quality video game machine. In addition, you are because you are concerned about the supply of chips, and saw off supported in Z9X for DisplayPort. Was also equipped with a new mode that is optimized PlayStation Vita TV (of 720p) to (PS Vita TV) connection."


This sounds like the best gaming TV ever made! 10ms and only 19.2ms with interpolation eek.gif

Now, why do they have to use active 3D for the 65". So ****ing stupid. Only 84" is passive.
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post #21 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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"Game support also strengthened point. Of the new deployment in the "new 4K game Turbo", in 4K/2K game, geared towards low latency of 0.6 frame delay of REGZA fastest ever (about 10ms). By the read memory optimization, to approach the theoretical limit as much as possible of the delay in the speed panel (0.5 frame), and minimize the stress of the game when playing, such as in an action game. 3D games also delay reduction, about 1.1 frames (about 18.3ms. 720/60Hz input), thereby suppressing 1.15 frame (about 19.2ms) to use the interpolation frame even "smooth game mode".

 In addition, suppression of the delay sound as well as video. It is delay (about 15ms) 0.9 frame voice low delay mode of karaoke for the "Game Karaoke".

 4K game corresponding PC or strengthening. In HDMI input, as well as 4K, was formally corresponding to the input of 2,560 × 1,440 dots / 60p adoption cases are often on the PC game. By the video signal processing of ALL 4:4:4, and that reproduce beautifully of high-quality video game machine. In addition, you are because you are concerned about the supply of chips, and saw off supported in Z9X for DisplayPort. Was also equipped with a new mode that is optimized PlayStation Vita TV (of 720p) to (PS Vita TV) connection."


This sounds like the best gaming TV ever made! 10ms and only 19.2ms with interpolation eek.gif

Now, why do they have to use active 3D for the 65". So ****ing stupid. Only 84" is passive.

Remember that is a Google translate so it may not apply to all the models. Also the Sharp 4K 70UD1 had the Moth Eye screen in Japan and then it was removed for the US model, so some changes can still take place.
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post #22 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 05:00 PM
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So no one has done the math yet to extrapolate 288 zones on a 58" into how many zone you'd get on a 65" if you kept the same number of LEDs per panel area (same brightness)?

Slackers... tongue.gif

It's 362
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Toshiba has now become a contender for me.

Wonder if Panasonic will price their AX900 series.
If Toshiba has twice as many dimming zones as their flagship model, but the price is almost the same as Panasonic's lower tier model. which only has 32 dimming zones.

fafrd, didn't you speculate that the Vizio R series would be $6,000 as well a few month back?
That might be true after all.


I'm a little disappointed at the pricing. The new line of FALD that might finally topple the Sharp Elite, are priced the same as it, which was 3-4 years back.
Can't get a LCD with Plasma contrast without paying twice as much.
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I'm a little disappointed at the pricing. The new line of FALD that might finally topple the Sharp Elite, are priced the same as it, which was 3-4 years back.
Can't get a LCD with Plasma contrast without paying twice as much.
Because 4k... Unfortunately, there is very little interest in offering 1080p FALD sets outside of Vizio and the single 55" Toshiba 7400U.
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post #25 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 07:44 PM
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Yeah, my bad - the L7400U had a 55" but the L9400U was announced at CES as having only 58" and 65" FALD panels.

Have you seen any specs regarding the effective refresh rate of the 65" L9400U? Or Clear Motion Rate or whatever mumbo-jumbo Toshiba is using for backlight scanning action rate?

If the L9400U is releasing in Japan in May, the user manual should provide some insight.

I believe I read something about "Smooth Direct Motion 480"

OK, well that would imply a 4-segment scanning backlight. So on the 58", each segment would contain 3 rows of LEDs.

And assuming that the 65" is also based on a 4-segment scanning backlight, it's either also going to be based on 3 rows of LEDs per segment which would likely result in less brightness or it may be based on 4 rows of LEDs per segment and 16 rows of LEDs total as you suspect.

The 58" was 12 x 24 and if the 65" is going to have the equal or greater brightness, it is either going to need to be 12 x 32 (as you suspect would be more likely) or 16 x 24 (like her Vizio R Series).
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post #26 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 08:23 PM
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"Brightness 700nit."

Is this display related only or source and display.
I know for a display with HDR you need HDR source for it to work.

Would 700nit brightness display make hd broadcast twice as bright even when calibrated?
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post #27 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

Toshiba has now become a contender for me.

Wonder if Panasonic will price their AX900 series.
If Toshiba has twice as many dimming zones as their flagship model, but the price is almost the same as Panasonic's lower tier model. which only has 32 dimming zones.

fafrd, didn't you speculate that the Vizio R series would be $6,000 as well a few month back?
That might be true after all.


I'm a little disappointed at the pricing. The new line of FALD that might finally topple the Sharp Elite, are priced the same as it, which was 3-4 years back.
Can't get a LCD with Plasma contrast without paying twice as much.

I speculated that the 65" R Series might have an MSRP of half that level initially, but grudgingly accepted that it would be priced somewhere between $4000 and $3500 by the end of my debate with Rogo.

The Samsung UN65HU8550, 65" flat 4K ELPD LED/LCD has an MSRP of $5000 and a current street price of $4000 - I'm sure Vizio is aware of that and it will surprise me if the price the 65" R Series higher than the UN65HU8550 (unless they don't actually want to sell any units and it is for bragging rights only).

Toshiba's price for the L9400U is surprising, after how aggressive the L7400U has been priced - does anyone know what the price of the L7400U was in Japan (in yen)?
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post #28 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerfan33 View Post

"Brightness 700nit."

Is this display related only or source and display.
I know for a display with HDR you need HDR source for it to work.

Would 700nit brightness display make hd broadcast twice as bright even when calibrated?

You can turn brightness down. More specifically, if the peak brightness is higher you can strobe the pixels 'ON' for less time, resulting in reduced motion blur. With a 700Nit backlight and a 480Hz action rate, the Toshiba L9400U should have motion blur nearly as low as a plasma.
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post #29 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Toshiba's price for the L9400U is surprising, after how aggressive the L7400U has been priced - does anyone know what the price of the L7400U was in Japan (in yen)?
The 55Z8 has FALD and is 260,000 yen, but I don't know if it is really the same set as the 55" 7400u. It seems to have an awful lot of high end features that the 7400u lacks.

There's also a 55J8 that's full array, not sure about the local dimming part. It's 220,000 yen.
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post #30 of 306 Old 04-14-2014, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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The Full Array backlight makes it a little chunky compared to some ultra thin sets, but it is flat and can be wall mounted so you will not even notice.



Here is some input data.

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