????why BGR not RGB???? Samsung un40eh6000f - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 04-16-2014, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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why is my hdtv running BGR NOT RGB

reference picture from my smartphone.  is that causing it?

and it is right side up and it was taken from a samsung panel hooked up via hdmi from a galaxy 670 4gb vram

 


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post #2 of 33 Old 04-17-2014, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gloege View Post

why is my hdtv running BGR NOT RGB
reference picture from my smartphone.  is that causing it?
and it is right side up and it was taken from a samsung panel hooked up via hdmi from a galaxy 670 4gb vram


How do you know it's not GRB or RBG? wink.gif You do not show a reference to the edge of the screen so it's hard to say.

It's just the design of the sub-pixel. Why would it matter what order the colors are in? From a distance they blend to produce one pixel.

If stimulated...

100% red
100% green
0% blue

This will produce yellow. Regardless if it's designed as RGB, GRB, BGR, RBG ...

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post #3 of 33 Old 04-17-2014, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Regardless if it's designed as RGB, GRB, BGR, RBG ...
EIEIO. biggrin.gif
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post #4 of 33 Old 04-17-2014, 11:57 AM
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If you read right to left, it becomes RGB. Is the picture on the TV flipped too?
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post #5 of 33 Old 04-17-2014, 01:08 PM
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Without using a "Smart"Phone....
Does it display a good picture with a traditional display signal (Antenna, cable, satellite, DVD/Bluray, gaming system, etc.)?
If it does... what's the problem/question? biggrin.gif
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post #6 of 33 Old 04-18-2014, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Without using a "Smart"Phone....
Does it display a good picture with a traditional display signal (Antenna, cable, satellite, DVD/Bluray, gaming system, etc.)?
If it does... what's the problem/question? biggrin.gif

I don't believe anything is wrong with their TV. Looks like he looked at the sub-pixels and saw it wasn't in the order he expected (RGB). Then took a pic and posted about it.

It doesn't matter what order the Red, Green and Blue sub-pixels are in as I was trying to point out previously. Different designs use different groupings, and even different shapes for the sub-pixels. Samsung doesn't always even use Samsung panels in their TVs, different companies have their own unique patents making their designs different.

Your eye will not perceive any difference in a single pixel made of three sub-pixels as: RGB, BGR, GRB ... it will all look the same.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1294904/samsung-panel-version-thread

** technically the sub-pixels are lot more complex in some designs but to save confusion I'll leave it as is. Better photos in the thread linked will show you some screen/pixels designs are actually made of up too 9 sub-pixels. 3 red, 3 green 3 blue. This is done for better gradient control... and an entirely different conversation.

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post #7 of 33 Old 04-18-2014, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I have it hooked up to the pc and yes I read the official forum page one to page last. I was doing refrence white full screen. Though I was told on this tv reversed rgb would cause ghosting and I have that, also it seems to be clipping on white and black scales. Funny thing I did do the reg hack, don't think that's the prob I tried it fresh no drivers just internal working still got it just more blurry. So not to mention the tv and my nvidia is driving full rgb, but the ghosting must stop. I have no vigneting, also blacks and whites are perfict uniform. I been useing lagom test images and that's where I got my clipping and bgr resaults. Can't tell you much else

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post #8 of 33 Old 04-18-2014, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Does it display a good picture with a traditional display signal (Antenna, cable, satellite, DVD/Bluray, gaming system, etc.)?
In other words... no HTPC. Just using "real" sources.
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post #9 of 33 Old 04-19-2014, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gloege View Post

Well I have it hooked up to the pc and yes I read the official forum page one to page last. I was doing refrence white full screen. Though I was told on this tv reversed rgb would cause ghosting and I have that, also it seems to be clipping on white and black scales. Funny thing I did do the reg hack, don't think that's the prob I tried it fresh no drivers just internal working still got it just more blurry. So not to mention the tv and my nvidia is driving full rgb, but the ghosting must stop. I have no vigneting, also blacks and whites are perfict uniform. I been useing lagom test images and that's where I got my clipping and bgr resaults. Can't tell you much else


Like I've said multiple times now. The ghosting has nothing to do with the sub-pixel color order. A lot of PC monitors have the sub-pixels colors in different orders other than RGB. And they don't ghost.

There are a lot of other factors which can cause ghosting.

LCD panel drive (sometimes nothing you can do about ghosting depending on how the drive system works)
Video drivers PC
Font aliasing
calibration of the TV (sharpness, contrast)
slightly mismatched scan rates/video size (it's a TV not a multi-sync monitor; you need to feed a good signal)
... I could keep going

It's a Samsung so did you label your input "PC", and enable HDMI black level "low". since you are using a full RGB signal on it? Labeling the input "PC" turns off a lot of the internal processing which can cause ghosting.

And or a different source as previous poster asked... also with this other source say a BR player put it in RGB full mode; set HDMI black level to "low". Burn the AVSHD disc, does this too clip whites with the white clipping test slides? Do the sharpness slides show ghosting?

Good luck, I hope you get it working to some satisfaction. I'm out... as my head is going to explode if I hear anything about the color order of the sub-pixels again... lol

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post #10 of 33 Old 04-19-2014, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Well games are the worse, but then some games are not. I done every grey black pink yellow and white scale under the moon some crush some dont. Besides that the gforce wmp music visualization is working up to standard, so it's a give and take

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post #11 of 33 Old 04-19-2014, 04:33 PM
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Any response to questions in posts 5 and 8?
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post #12 of 33 Old 04-25-2014, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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ok post 8 has been answered and post 5 well let me sum this up.  i may have not noticed the ghosting before. last year i had it hooked up to a cable signal and htpc, it seemed great.  that answered...  but i did upgrade the firmware and that is the first step i had into trouble.  everything was clipped, mainly whites.  no matter what setting i did it was useless.  but the whites in the menu and from the signal(htpc, as i have no other source now)was so bright white that even turning the screen super black the white shown through.  i did a rest to factory setting and it changed the panel id so that might be the case.  any who finely got so tired of it and living alone figured i had no one else to talk to so i bumped samsung support.  we narrowed it down that a factory reset would not do as much for the picture in my situation as a picture reset would and thank the stars it did.  now i still seem to have reverse rgb.  don't know what it was before hand last year and before the upgrade, but my panel id is switch for good.  all on my own i am solving working full rgb on the pc with limited rgb on vids; it's working out great.  though no matter what setting i do(hdtv menu or pc) it still ghosts just as much so i am guessing it is source.  then again before the firmware update it was non existent so... that leads me to think the update had reason to be the problem if i could downgrade firmware like others have it be my first answer(i don't have the file to do so).  but... with the panel id changed it might not go back and that could be worry some i was fiddling with the panel ids, but my brain said stop, because the original was not there.  that could have been what was telling the panel how to work and the upgrade was what brainwashed it into thinking it was a diffrent panel and that i needed ghosting.  and no matter what i do the very tip toe of each end of the scale is clipped.  i don't care if this drive a hole in one into your sanity, but someone reversed the rgb on this tv and noted that there was ghosting that wasn't there before(note tv is rgb).  others have stated ghosting too could we be in the same boat.  mine was after firmware upgrade there problem was out of the box.  don't know if they have the same firmware.  anyway see what you guys come up with ok BLEESED BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN Yahuwshuwa NAME   


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post #13 of 33 Old 04-25-2014, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
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BLEESED BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN Yahuwshuwa NAME   
Then why ask us? Say a prayer or answer the question(s) in one sentence. (refer to post #5 for the question).

If all other sources work fine, you have a problem with the HTPC.
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post #14 of 33 Old 04-26-2014, 01:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I made a lengthy post stating I don't know if other sorces work I don't have any, the onlything that comes close is my eternal hdd, but that exibits the same problems. 2 it never was the htpc before the update, why now. Like I stated up in the earlier post. Wow not to sound rude, but I could really use some insight. Thank you that is all for now

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post #15 of 33 Old 04-26-2014, 06:10 AM
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Since you seen to be leaning towards the update as the start/cause of the problem(s), contact Samsung and inquire if there is a way to backoff the update and reinstall the prior version that worked well for you. Or try reinstalling the current firmware. Maybe something was corrupted during download/installation.

Out of curiosity... what prompted you to "update" the TV? Were you trying to fix something or just updated because it was available?
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post #16 of 33 Old 04-26-2014, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I asked samsung and they didn't think a downgrade would happen if I can find the drivers it might be worth a try but who knows I could have had special drivers since the panel id changed. Also I upgraded because it promised better picture well technically it is better but now there's ghosting. I hope all of you on avs will see me through and nip this in the butt.

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post #17 of 33 Old 04-26-2014, 10:47 AM
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If Samsung can't help, you are probably SOL.

As I suggested, find original firmware and downgrade or reload new firmware and hope for the best. Other than that... as bad as it is, you may have to live with what you have. So you now have a better picture, but now have a ghosting problem. Maybe a new firmware upgrade will be available in the future to fix your ghosting.
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post #18 of 33 Old 04-26-2014, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloege View Post

Well I have it hooked up to the pc and yes I read the official forum page one to page last. I was doing refrence white full screen. Though I was told on this tv reversed rgb would cause ghosting and I have that, also it seems to be clipping on white and black scales. Funny thing I did do the reg hack, don't think that's the prob I tried it fresh no drivers just internal working still got it just more blurry. So not to mention the tv and my nvidia is driving full rgb, but the ghosting must stop. I have no vigneting, also blacks and whites are perfict uniform. I been useing lagom test images and that's where I got my clipping and bgr resaults. Can't tell you much else



Like I've said multiple times now. The ghosting has nothing to do with the sub-pixel color order. A lot of PC monitors have the sub-pixels colors in different orders other than RGB. And they don't ghost.

 

While it can be called several things when it goes wrong (including ghosting), sub-pixel-rendering becomes impossible on BGR devices if not configurable for that order.

 

Here's an interesting test image site and this page in particular will expose which way your monitor is set up, so long as it isn't pentile or something else odd.

 

Take a look at what happens when the order is wrong.  Focus carefully on the black lines....and then at the square in the middle of them.  Where you see a faint black edge of the cyan block will be the indicator of your pixel orientation.  Look at the images not properly SPR'd (for the given sub order).  "Ghosting" fits well enough as a descriptor.  On my RGB display the left hand lines look crystal clear and a faint black line is on the left of the box.

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/img/subpixel.png

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post #19 of 33 Old 04-27-2014, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

While it can be called several things when it goes wrong (including ghosting), sub-pixel-rendering becomes impossible on BGR devices if not configurable for that order.

Here's an interesting test image site and this page in particular will expose which way your monitor is set up, so long as it isn't pentile or something else odd.

Take a look at what happens when the order is wrong.  Focus carefully on the black lines....and then at the square in the middle of them.  Where you see a faint black edge of the cyan block will be the indicator of your pixel orientation.  Look at the images not properly SPR'd (for the given sub order).  "Ghosting" fits well enough as a descriptor.  On my RGB display the left hand lines look crystal clear and a faint black line is on the left of the box.

subpixel.png

RGB has the same problem depending on what color you put in the square to exaserbate it.

I think he might be talking about motion ghosting.

The 3 sub pixels colors are suppose to blend. You could make example images that expose any sub pixel colour order. And from any normal viewing distance the issue is negligible.

There is not a wrong color order... RGB will have same issues if you try and expose it. Most driving schemes/OS try and hide it. I think only people who will run into issue are those using it as PC monitor and sitting too close.

I guess this is another win for 4k tv's as the subpixels are even smaller. Should be very hard to distinguish them on smaller screen sizes used for PC.

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post #20 of 33 Old 04-27-2014, 05:04 AM
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I find it puzzling why and how Samsung would change RGB to BGR with a firmware update.
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post #21 of 33 Old 04-27-2014, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

While it can be called several things when it goes wrong (including ghosting), sub-pixel-rendering becomes impossible on BGR devices if not configurable for that order.

Here's an interesting test image site and this page in particular will expose which way your monitor is set up, so long as it isn't pentile or something else odd.

Take a look at what happens when the order is wrong.  Focus carefully on the black lines....and then at the square in the middle of them.  Where you see a faint black edge of the cyan block will be the indicator of your pixel orientation.  Look at the images not properly SPR'd (for the given sub order).  "Ghosting" fits well enough as a descriptor.  On my RGB display the left hand lines look crystal clear and a faint black line is on the left of the box.

"http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/img/subpixel.png

RGB has the same problem depending on what color you put in the square to exaserbate it.

 

Of course, that's the point of the test.  I'm not saying it will cause ghosting with content that doesn't perform subpixel rendering.  I'm saying it will cause ghosting with content that does.  I don't know of any source that would do that other than a PC with software misconfigured.

 


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post #22 of 33 Old 05-02-2014, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I see the ice is cracking. One thing I was wondering is no maybe samsung didn't change the color space, but and I say but... there could have been a malfunction. Like why were the brights and whites lightning bright. Well a picture rest worked to corect that part and I am still left with the bgr. Could I have tripped a wire with the factory menu. I did do a reset and panel id switched, wish I had a before and after pic, cause samsung said that change was highly unlikely. But no thanks so far for helping me try to crack this and I will mention this I've used laptops and multi sync monitors still can't par them fo my samsung. Though for what I paid for and bought I was hoping to get what was advertised, to to have a faulty pish posh monitor. And yes I will only be on a pc with this. Now I realize the eye stuff but that is due to my eyes and brain having amazing time dilation. I do not, I repeat do not have that cornfused with the backwords rgb and ghosting. Thatnks for the lagom but... that was my first quest all by myself. Remember I confirmed it there before post numeral 1.

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post #23 of 33 Old 05-02-2014, 06:00 PM
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^^^Are you irritated about something?  Easy, dude, we're just talking it out.


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post #24 of 33 Old 05-03-2014, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
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Could I have tripped a wire with the factory menu. I did do a reset and panel id switched, ...
I think the case has been cracked. Sounds like another of many troubles with TV's after individuals play around in the "service menus".
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post #25 of 33 Old 05-03-2014, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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funny thing the original panel id is not in the menu anymore and to inform i did not intend to change it all the other settings were played with, but returned to original factory settings and manually for ones the factory reset did not reset.  would i be out of warranty or anything samsung if i have had the tv almost 2 years?


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post #26 of 33 Old 05-03-2014, 12:24 PM
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TV is out of warranty. You shouldn't be in the service menus unless you have a service manual and have good idea about what you're doing. wink.gif
Admit it... you fouled up. biggrin.gif
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post #27 of 33 Old 05-03-2014, 01:33 PM
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Better that than CMYK.tongue.gif
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post #28 of 33 Old 05-08-2014, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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no it was either that or have a blown out monitor in the end it cant be worse then what i have seen else where and they just plugged it in. i am also thinking the monitor is 60hz and my games dont all run at 60


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Blow it up... blow it up... yeah, BB... BLOW IT UP!!!! biggrin.gif
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post #30 of 33 Old 05-08-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
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no it was either that or have a blown out monitor in the end it cant be worse then what i have seen else where and they just plugged it in. i am also thinking the monitor is 60hz and my games dont all run at 0
Oh! Perfectly clear now. You're right.
But either way, it still doesn't work to your expectation(s).

Stay out of service menus unless you have a "service manual" and a clue about what you're changing and willing to accept the consequences when you foul up.
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