Official 2014 Vizio Mxxx-Bx Series owners thread - Page 51 - AVS Forum
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post #1501 of 2285 Old 07-24-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by spwill View Post
Different sizes use different panels so settings may be different. A grayscale step is the easiest pattern for me to see clipping. The avshd disc here has that pattern but not sure if the disney disc has it. You set contrast the highest it can go without discoloration and clipping. With a meter, you can verify this by measuring 100% fields or windows while raising contrast to see when the colors drop. If you have contrast too high, the gamma drops off like the pics shown by bilditup1 in post 1472. Once you set contrast right, then you adjust the backlight to hit your light output.
Do you have a guide on how to do all this stuff? I was considering getting my M652i calibrated, but a specialist wants $275 in my town. Was considering buying the SpectraCal C3 $150 combo and doing it myself.
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post #1502 of 2285 Old 07-24-2014, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by nickmv View Post
Do you have a guide on how to do all this stuff? I was considering getting my M652i calibrated, but a specialist wants $275 in my town. Was considering buying the SpectraCal C3 $150 combo and doing it myself.
Check out the grayscale and color calibration for dummies at curte palme. I used it when I started off calibrating as a hobby.
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post #1503 of 2285 Old 07-24-2014, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by spwill View Post
Yep, those gamma numbers look similiar to mine with local dimming on and off. You're on the right track. Before you do anymore tweaks, set you're backlight to whatever light output you are targeting. You maybe able to squeeze more light output by raising contrast, but always check for clipping. Put up a 100% field while increasing contrast and you can see red and blue drop off. I'm not sure if you can get 10% below 3 but it really doesn't matter since it's so dark. You can get it within range with the 10pt controls and fix the gamma as well. Again a pain in the ass to do but worth it since the low end gamma is so bad with local dimming on.

So when I was tweaking the numbers, I messed it up too bad and decided to start from scratch. But I'm having trouble getting it close to as good as it was before. I took pictures of the numbers before fiddling, but I'm curious - what is the best practice, to calibrate up from 0-100 or down 100-0? I've read to do the latter, and I think was somewhat successful with it in the past, but I've also found, with this set, that whatever you do, the controls directly before the %-output you're attempting to calibrate also affect white balance at that level. (In other words, the controls at 90% will affect 100%. But 100% will also!) In general I've been trying to strike an OK balance between white balance at the highest and lowest ends of grayscale using RGB Gain/Offset first, using the Pre-Calibration Grayscale Level chart as a guide, and then fiddle with the 11-pt WB scale from top to bottom. But I can't quite get it right this time with the relative ease I did last. (This is with FALD on, no more clipping whites, light output of 120-125cd/m^2 @100% white.) I want to avoid driving myself crazy this tine, and though I still have the local-dimming numbers (took pictures) to fall back in, I'm not sure that try to tweak those to work with FALD and proper contrast again is the way to go, given how much dE got screwed up when I tried to last time (also went from top to bottom on that sweep). So if you have any more advice on this, I'll gladly take it. Thanks again!


P.S. I realize this would have been more proper as a PM, but I don't think you have those turned on? Or else I just don't see the damn link, heh
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post #1504 of 2285 Old 07-24-2014, 04:21 PM
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I believe Dave Katz (cnet) found the same anomaly regarding 0-100. He calibrated up till he could no longer sacrificing above 90 since he ran out of "room".


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post #1505 of 2285 Old 07-24-2014, 05:42 PM
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I've been trying to get solid number on the input lag of the M602I-B3 I just ordered one from Sam's and am hoping it'll be a nice upgrade from my Panny plasma GT50 from 2011.
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post #1506 of 2285 Old 07-24-2014, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilditup1 View Post
So when I was tweaking the numbers, I messed it up too bad and decided to start from scratch. But I'm having trouble getting it close to as good as it was before. I took pictures of the numbers before fiddling, but I'm curious - what is the best practice, to calibrate up from 0-100 or down 100-0? I've read to do the latter, and I think was somewhat successful with it in the past, but I've also found, with this set, that whatever you do, the controls directly before the %-output you're attempting to calibrate also affect white balance at that level. (In other words, the controls at 90% will affect 100%. But 100% will also!) In general I've been trying to strike an OK balance between white balance at the highest and lowest ends of grayscale using RGB Gain/Offset first, using the Pre-Calibration Grayscale Level chart as a guide, and then fiddle with the 11-pt WB scale from top to bottom. But I can't quite get it right this time with the relative ease I did last. (This is with FALD on, no more clipping whites, light output of 120-125cd/m^2 @100% white.) I want to avoid driving myself crazy this tine, and though I still have the local-dimming numbers (took pictures) to fall back in, I'm not sure that try to tweak those to work with FALD and proper contrast again is the way to go, given how much dE got screwed up when I tried to last time (also went from top to bottom on that sweep). So if you have any more advice on this, I'll gladly take it. Thanks again!


P.S. I realize this would have been more proper as a PM, but I don't think you have those turned on? Or else I just don't see the damn link, heh
Yeah I turned pm back on, didn't know it was off. Anyways, I found it easier to go from the bottom to top to fix gamma and white balance. You have to check white balance at the points above and below to see if they stay in alignment. Basically it's a back and forth thing which makes it harder to do than a normal 10pt system. Just pm me and I'll try to get into more details about the process.
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post #1507 of 2285 Old 07-24-2014, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by smeg36 View Post
I was curious about this, although I'll never use it, because I have a Denon receiver as well (2113CI). I followed the setup instructions for my Denon, yours are located here. I also had to go to the TV menu, set Audio/Digital Audio Out to Bitstream (to ensure surround sound), and set System/CEC to On, system Audio Control to ON, and do the Device Discovery. then power everything down, and turn it back on. It's pretty finicky, but I did get it working.
Thanks, I will give it a shot tomorrow.
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post #1508 of 2285 Old 07-25-2014, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mattdr View Post
I've been trying to get solid number on the input lag of the M602I-B3 I just ordered one from Sam's and am hoping it'll be a nice upgrade from my Panny plasma GT50 from 2011.
I'm curious about this, too. I've heard it's not bad with Game Mode on, but I would love some numbers (especially Game Mode vs non-Game Mode).
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post #1509 of 2285 Old 07-25-2014, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by waterboy2327 View Post
Thanks, I will give it a shot tomorrow.


There were numbers posted earlier in the thread and may be posted in the "lag wars" thread as well. Not sure there are many users however that have the 60M, game AND can test lag correctly.


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post #1510 of 2285 Old 07-25-2014, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by kruai View Post
I'm curious about this, too. I've heard it's not bad with Game Mode on, but I would love some numbers (especially Game Mode vs non-Game Mode).
M652i owner here. Can't speak for the 602, but the difference between non-Game mode and Game mode is staggering.

Most FPS titles are practically unplayable without Game Mode on. It's kinda silly to be honest, and a tad bit annoying having to constantly switch when I wanna play a game, versus having my calibrated settings active for TV.
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post #1511 of 2285 Old 07-25-2014, 08:57 AM
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M492i-B2 is finally up on the Costco website! Unfortunately it's not in stock at my local store.

Item# 964913
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post #1512 of 2285 Old 07-25-2014, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilditup1 View Post
So when I was tweaking the numbers, I messed it up too bad and decided to start from scratch. But I'm having trouble getting it close to as good as it was before. I took pictures of the numbers before fiddling, but I'm curious - what is the best practice, to calibrate up from 0-100 or down 100-0? I've read to do the latter, and I think was somewhat successful with it in the past, but I've also found, with this set, that whatever you do, the controls directly before the %-output you're attempting to calibrate also affect white balance at that level. (In other words, the controls at 90% will affect 100%. But 100% will also!) In general I've been trying to strike an OK balance between white balance at the highest and lowest ends of grayscale using RGB Gain/Offset first, using the Pre-Calibration Grayscale Level chart as a guide, and then fiddle with the 11-pt WB scale from top to bottom. But I can't quite get it right this time with the relative ease I did last. (This is with FALD on, no more clipping whites, light output of 120-125cd/m^2 @100% white.) I want to avoid driving myself crazy this tine, and though I still have the local-dimming numbers (took pictures) to fall back in, I'm not sure that try to tweak those to work with FALD and proper contrast again is the way to go, given how much dE got screwed up when I tried to last time (also went from top to bottom on that sweep). So if you have any more advice on this, I'll gladly take it. Thanks again!


P.S. I realize this would have been more proper as a PM, but I don't think you have those turned on? Or else I just don't see the damn link, heh
Would you be willing to share your calibration settings for the 42" when you finish? I know there's variance from set to set, but hopefully it'll be a bit of an improvement from just using a calibration disk. Thanks!
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post #1513 of 2285 Old 07-25-2014, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickmv View Post
M652i owner here. Can't speak for the 602, but the difference between non-Game mode and Game mode is staggering.

Most FPS titles are practically unplayable without Game Mode on. It's kinda silly to be honest, and a tad bit annoying having to constantly switch when I wanna play a game, versus having my calibrated settings active for TV.
This concerns me. I don't have the TV yet, but when I get it I plan on running all my sources into my really nice Denon X-1000 receiver, and then just one HDMI to the TV (so the TV is basically just a big dumb monitor for me).

I understand that each input on the TV will remember which mode you had it in, right? However, since I plan on using only one input on the TV, that nice little feature doesn't really mean much to me.

Does anyone know if swapping modes can be accomplished with a dedicated remote command, or do you actually have to navigate menus? I'm thinking if it's a dedicated remote command, I might be able to program it into my Harmony so it sets the appropriate mode on the Vizio depending on what Activity I choose.
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post #1514 of 2285 Old 07-25-2014, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rogersmj View Post
Does anyone know if swapping modes can be accomplished with a dedicated remote command, or do you actually have to navigate menus? I'm thinking if it's a dedicated remote command, I might be able to program it into my Harmony so it sets the appropriate mode on the Vizio depending on what Activity I choose.
I was trying to accomplish something similar, except I wanted to switch picture modes to turn smooth motion and motion blur reduction on for watching sports, then watch everything else with a separate picture mode with them off. There aren't discrete codes that I could find for each picture mode, but there is a Picture Mode button that will bring up a list of all picture modes. Pressing it repeatedly will cycle through them. So I programed my Harmony to have the Picture Mode button on screen, I press it repeatedly until I'm on the picture mode I want to be on, then I programmed the E (enter) button to send the Exit command to the Vizio so it will exit the Picture Mode menu. Not as nice as having discrete codes, but it works pretty well.
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post #1515 of 2285 Old 07-25-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by nickmv View Post
M652i owner here. Can't speak for the 602, but the difference between non-Game mode and Game mode is staggering.

Most FPS titles are practically unplayable without Game Mode on. It's kinda silly to be honest, and a tad bit annoying having to constantly switch when I wanna play a game, versus having my calibrated settings active for TV.
Hmm, I'm going through an AVR too. Just as long as game mode on this TV allows me full access to picture adjustments outside of processing I'm okay with it I guess. Had an LG that dimmed to half brightness in game mode and looked awful.

Sams Club just shipped me the 60M and should get it Monday. I will post results and pictures for those interested.
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post #1516 of 2285 Old 07-25-2014, 05:46 PM
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To people with this set is there a game preset or do you just set input to game to reduce lag?
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post #1517 of 2285 Old 07-26-2014, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mattdr View Post
To people with this set is there a game preset or do you just set input to game to reduce lag?
The game mode is a picture mode / profile. It is not an input, however you can set it for each input. I believe each input allows you to save whatever picture mode you want.

This is great for people who want to hook up multiple devices, but for someone like me who runs all devices through an HT receiver, you're pretty much SOL and must manually switch picture modes every single time you want to switch between TV/movies and games. I of course inevitably forget to switch it off Game mode. Thankfully, game mode isn't that bad on its settings.

This is where it'd be nice if HDMI standard allowed for "signatures" for specific devices, so my TV knows that the input coming through is a PS4, for example.

Last edited by nickmv; 07-26-2014 at 08:47 AM.
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post #1518 of 2285 Old 07-26-2014, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by nickmv View Post
The game mode is a picture mode / profile. It is not an input, however you can set it for each input. I believe each input allows you to save whatever picture mode you want.

This is great for people who want to hook up multiple devices, but for someone like me who runs all devices through an HT receiver, you're pretty much SOL and must manually switch picture modes every single time you want to switch between TV/movies and games. I of course inevitably forget to switch it off Game mode. Thankfully, game mode isn't that bad on its settings.
Does game mode dim the backlight? Does it give full picture adjustments outside of processing?
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post #1519 of 2285 Old 07-26-2014, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mattdr View Post
Does game mode dim the backlight? Does it give full picture adjustments outside of processing?
OK, I knew someone had asked that.

NO! It actually, if anything, increases the backlight, which is good. I assume you're the one who mentioned having an LG that dropped brightness levels by 50% when Game Mode is on.

Let's put it this way -- my calibrated profile for TV is a decent bit dimmer than Game Mode. Now don't get me wrong -- Game Mode isn't washed-out bright or something.

As for pic adjustments -- unfortunately NO you cannot adjust it. The instant you try to adjust Game Mode, it simply copies the profile into a Custom n (n representing # of custom profiles). So yeah that sucks.

I have not, however, tested to see if input lag suddenly spikes when I adjust game mode. That's what's frustrating -- it's hard to understand what's going on in Game Mode. It'd be nice to know what exactly gets disabled. There's GOT to be a way to adjust the basic pic settings, in theory.

Maybe a firmware update can introduce this.
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post #1520 of 2285 Old 07-26-2014, 09:55 AM
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I'm trying to choose between the 55" and 60" M series. Is there anything between the B2 and B3 panels that makes a large difference in quality?

The 60" is slightly big for my room but I could make it work. If the 55" has better picture quality for some reason then I would rather go with that. Thanks for any help!
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post #1521 of 2285 Old 07-26-2014, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickmv View Post
As for pic adjustments -- unfortunately NO you cannot adjust it. The instant you try to adjust Game Mode, it simply copies the profile into a Custom n (n representing # of custom profiles). So yeah that sucks.


Maybe a firmware update can introduce this.
I have an xbox one connected to my m55, and was not using game mode. So i decided to change it to that. And yes it does make it make brighter, but the strange thing is that it changes the color to Computer and it turns on smooth motion and blur reduction. I turned those off and kept computer, so I was thinking the same thing, what really changes?
-Tom
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post #1522 of 2285 Old 07-26-2014, 10:15 AM
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Yea I totally agree. I don't understand what's going on in Game Mode that reduces lag. It'd be nice if that was clear, and if there was a way to calibrate certain areas without increasing lag via picture processing.

But the fact that it has motion blur reduction, etc, turned ON in Game Mode doesn't seem to make much sense. My calibrated profile has less picture processing than that, and yet the input lag is terrible.

Here's the settings that Game Mode employs, at least on an M652i-B2.

Auto Brightness Control - Off
Backlight - 45
Brightness - 50
Contrast - 79
Color - 63
Tint - 0
Sharpness - 50

Adv Settings:

Color Temp - Computer
Black Detail - Off
Active LED Zones - Off
Smooth Motion Effect - Medium
Motion Blur Reduction - On
Reduce Signal Noise - Low
Reduce Block Noise - Off
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Originally Posted by beardontwalk123 View Post
I can post my settings tonight at sometime.......I have a 55 inch and use Calman with a I1 Display Pro. Before I post though I would really like to try it again doing greyscale from 100-10 because this set is hard to properly calibrate. I would like to know if there is anyone else that calibrated their 55 inch with a meter so I can compare?
That would be great. Thank you.
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post #1524 of 2285 Old 07-26-2014, 11:30 AM
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[QUOTE=nickmv;26057386]Yea I totally agree. I don't understand what's going on in Game Mode that reduces lag. It'd be nice if that was clear, and if there was a way to calibrate certain areas without increasing lag via picture processing.

But the fact that it has motion blur reduction, etc, turned ON in Game Mode doesn't seem to make much sense. My calibrated profile has less picture processing than that, and yet the input lag is terrible.

Thanks for the info. Terrible as in 50ms or like press the button and wait for a cup of coffee bad..haha

Thanks again for answering.
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post #1525 of 2285 Old 07-26-2014, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickmv View Post

Here's the settings that Game Mode employs, at least on an M652i-B2.

Auto Brightness Control - Off
Backlight - 45
Brightness - 50
Contrast - 79
Color - 63
Tint - 0
Sharpness - 50

Adv Settings:

Color Temp - Computer
Black Detail - Off
Active LED Zones - Off
Smooth Motion Effect - Medium
Motion Blur Reduction - On
Reduce Signal Noise - Low
Reduce Block Noise - Off
Here are the default settings for game mode on M552i-B2:

Auto Brightness Control - Off
Backlight - 68
Brightness - 49
Contrast - 77
Color - 63
Tint - 0
Sharpness - 50

Adv Settings:

Color Temp - Computer
Black Detail - Off
Active LED Zones - Off
Smooth Motion Effect - Medium
Motion Blur Reduction - On
Reduce Signal Noise - Low
Reduce Block Noise - Off

BTW, i turn off everything in Adv settings.
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post #1526 of 2285 Old 07-26-2014, 11:50 AM
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erm...anyone know where I can get VIZIO E600i-B3 in vancouver?
doesn't seem like I can find it anywhere...
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post #1527 of 2285 Old 07-26-2014, 07:47 PM
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Here are my settings! Calibrated with i1 display pro and Calman. I used CNET outline for my calibration settings. This set was pretty hard to calibrate because the white balance and CMS controls don't work quite like they were supposed to, but I managed to get everything at or below human perception. These settings also only work with the motion blur reduction on. That is why backlight is so high because MBR reduces a lot of light output.

Picture settings for M552I-B2:

---Picture settings menu---
Picture Mode: Custom 1
Auto Brightness Control: Off
Backlight: 74
Brightness: 50
Contrast: 81
Color: 50
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 50

--Advanced Picture submenu---
Color temperature: Normal
Black Detail: Off
Active LED Zones: On
Smooth Motion Effect: Off
Motion Blur Reduction: On
Reduce Signal Noise: Off
Reduce Block Noise: Off
Picture Size: [no change]
Picture Position: [no change]
Film Mode: Auto
Wide: Normal

---Professional Picture submenu---
Color Tuner:
Red [Hue, Saturation, Brightness]: 0, 0, 0
Green: 50, 50, -22
Blue: -36, -46, 35
Cyan: 12, 50, -7
Magenta: 0, 0, 0
Yellow: -37, 0, -9

Red offset: 4
Red gain: -4
Green offset: -1
Green Gain: 2
Blue offset: 0
Blue gain: -4

11-point white balance:
[Red, Green and Blue gain]
5%: 0, 0, 0
10%: -5, 7, 6
20%: -17, -21, -26
30%: -32, -43, -28
40%: -38, -38, -12
50%: -20, -22, -9
60%: 0, -3, -32
70%: 0, -50, 0
80%: -19, -40, 0
90%: 22, 0, 0
100%: 0, 0, 0

Again every T.V. is different and hopefully these settings work for you or get you on the right track.
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post #1528 of 2285 Old 07-27-2014, 03:51 AM
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Bought a M552i-B2 last night from Best Buy and I'm just really torn on this thing. The lag on my PS4 is terrible compared to my old TV (Sony KDL40EX500) in all modes other than Game, and with Game mode I don't really see the point of having a 240Hz TV over 120Hz with all of the smoothing processing turned off. This wouldn't be a problem if I used more than one input. Unfortunately though, everything is ran through my receiver and I refuse to constantly switch profiles. I can appreciate the picture on the set; it's a gorgeous television. But is it $900 better than my old TV? I have yet to decide.

Just my two cents.
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post #1529 of 2285 Old 07-27-2014, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentolmachoff View Post
Bought a M552i-B2 last night from Best Buy and I'm just really torn on this thing. The lag on my PS4 is terrible compared to my old TV (Sony KDL40EX500) in all modes other than Game, and with Game mode I don't really see the point of having a 240Hz TV over 120Hz with all of the smoothing processing turned off. This wouldn't be a problem if I used more than one input. Unfortunately though, everything is ran through my receiver and I refuse to constantly switch profiles. I can appreciate the picture on the set; it's a gorgeous television. But is it $900 better than my old TV? I have yet to decide.

Just my two cents.
Yeah, that's pretty fair. As I mentioned earlier, it's very obvious that it's purely a software deal, and it's easily fixable.

It's crystal clear that Game Mode in some way disables something that takes a long time to do (making all FPS games unplayable w/o Game Mode). The settings on GM, however, make it confusing, since motion blur reduction is enabled, among other things.

I'm going to see if I can get an e-mail to a tech about it. That, and the various adjustment bugs regarding white point balance, etc.

I encourage others to do the same.
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post #1530 of 2285 Old 07-27-2014, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickmv View Post
OK, I knew someone had asked that.

NO! It actually, if anything, increases the backlight, which is good. I assume you're the one who mentioned having an LG that dropped brightness levels by 50% when Game Mode is on.

Let's put it this way -- my calibrated profile for TV is a decent bit dimmer than Game Mode. Now don't get me wrong -- Game Mode isn't washed-out bright or something.

As for pic adjustments -- unfortunately NO you cannot adjust it. The instant you try to adjust Game Mode, it simply copies the profile into a Custom n (n representing # of custom profiles). So yeah that sucks.

I have not, however, tested to see if input lag suddenly spikes when I adjust game mode. That's what's frustrating -- it's hard to understand what's going on in Game Mode. It'd be nice to know what exactly gets disabled. There's GOT to be a way to adjust the basic pic settings, in theory.

Maybe a firmware update can introduce this.
From superkyle, many pages back ...

Actually if you only tweak picture settings such as color,contrast, brightness etc it will remain in game mode and create a custom setting. This can be verified. Switch to game mode from any preset configuration. You will notice the screen flash as the processing is turned off. If you switch between two non game mode picture settings there will not be a screen flash. Now create your custom game mode as I mentioned above. Again when switching to this new picture setting the screen will flash verifying that game mode is still turned on. With that said you can in fact tweak the game mode settings and save them however if you try to enable or disable settings in the advanced picture settings menu it will more than likely revert back to a non game mode setting.

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