Panasonic Beats Plasma Picture Quality with TC-AX800U Series - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1369 Old 05-28-2014, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post

********. Plenty of big screen fans mourned the demise of RP for the same reasons plasma fans are mourning the passing of plasma: there is nothing in the market currently to replace it.


Except front projection, one could get themselves and large screen and say a JVC and forget all about tvs. tongue.gif
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post #452 of 1369 Old 05-28-2014, 08:25 PM
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DLP has it's fans.
Yes when there are 3 of them or LEDs are used at a much higher rate than a 6-7x color wheel. I don't think anyone made a 3 chip RP TV and the LED Samsungs didn't run the effective "color wheel speed" any faster than the spinning variety. (At least in the first gen model)
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post #453 of 1369 Old 05-28-2014, 08:28 PM
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Remember the good ole days when TV purchasers had more choices...rolleyes.gif




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Off course Front Projection in CRT, DLP, LCD, and LCoS...including Epson, Infocus, and Optoma.

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post #454 of 1369 Old 05-28-2014, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

That's because the last ones were DLP and almost no one was going to miss them.

I don't 'miss' my Mitsubishi DLP, replaced it with a VT50, but I did love it while I had it.

Looky here!
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post #455 of 1369 Old 05-28-2014, 09:31 PM
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I liked my HD FD Wega Trinitron back then also. I remember seeing some Sammie DLP's in the stores I thought looked pretty good . A friends Sony LYCOS was good back then also, another friends older Huge 72" RPTV( I think any way , not sure exactly what it was older thick cabinet early 2000's ) Mitsu not so good although it was HD . I remember seeing the Pioneer and Panny Plasmas in the early to mid 2K's at B. B. they had remarkable blacks and contrast compared to any other big screen back then I wanted one but couldn't come outta pocket for one .

Now the front runners in the house *here at least * in PQ are a PN60F5500 Samsung Plasma and Sony KDL 40 R450 LED/LCD in that order the Sammie is surprisingly good despite not being a top end set same for the Sony . The LG 42LN5400 is OK but just that I don't watch it though. I've also got a 2012 Toshiba CCFL/LCD that is better than the LG ,ofc the LG is not one of their better models anyway and it has a low spec IPS panel .

Perfect set doesn't exist yet but from what I've seen at B.B. /Magnolia on the LED side the better Sammies and Sonys are looking pretty good . On the dark side ( here in the LCD forum ☺) so is the Sammie F8500 !


I haven't seen the new Panny LED/LCD reviewed here yet ofc but the last few Panny LED/LCD I saw recently at BB looked real good .

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post #456 of 1369 Old 05-28-2014, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post

So is this something new as far as what is possible or did panasonic just figure out that this was a better way to light an LCD?

GB-R LED backlights are a newer technology that is also used in higher end color accurate computer monitors, such as the new HP DreamColor II, as well as some of the new Eizo models.

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post #457 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Mark didn't say 'satisfied' but it surely augments what's out there, doesn't it? What do you find wrong with 'home made 4K videos'? Have you seen this on a 4K display? What do you find wrong with creating as much great looking 4K content as you like? I'm seriously confused.

I took one of my edited videos to a Sony Store to see how it looked on the new 2014 Sonys. The Store Manager asked for permission to make a copy so that they could run it on one of their new displays. A customer that was there bought the camera on the spot after seeing the video. He too liked the idea of creating his own content.

Yes, there isn't much 4K content out there right now, but I've certainly found a way to bridge the gap to some degree, and I'm having a blast doing it. smile.gif


It's nice what you're doing but i want 4K movie content. I'm not spending thousands on a 4K TV just to watch home made videos and pretty demos on youtube. No offence to your work. I want to be able to buy a nice selection of movies. Or even stream from Netflix until a 4KBD format is made (if).

And i want an official new 4K standard to be used that's better than what we use for 1080p. I'm not just buying more pixels.

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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The only reason myself and most others stumbled upon this thread is because it's on the front page of AVS Forum.

I disagree with Imagic as I have seen the 800 myself and I didn't come to the same conclusion as Imagic.

However, both our observations are purely subjective and I still respect his take from the demo. At least he witnessed the LCD personally and made his conclusion based on that...unlike most people here who never even witnessed the TV in action and start bashing on imagic's conclusion.


So for those who disagree with imagic and never witnessed the LCD, what's the basis of your disagreement?

Simple; the inherent way LCD's work. We've all have seen LCD's before. The underlying tech is the same. vs a plasma a plasma outperforms it in the most important PQ areas, and while having that realistic film look. It's always been that way. I don't see anything different about the way AX800U works that would suddenly change this.

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post #458 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I'm not speaking for myself here, but I suspect the F8500 might be missed by a few. wink.gif LG will be missed by fewer, but you could do a lot worse by picking a random low-end LCD.

True, but fortunately we're not talking about random low-end LCDs here. Most of these threads are devoted to the high end LED/LCDs. smile.gif
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post #459 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post

No one is going to miss LG and Samsung plasmas either. Which is why all the Plasma fans are looking elsewhere already.

Talk about painting with a broad brush, pretty funny.
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post #460 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

That's because the last ones were DLP and almost no one was going to miss them.

No one is going to miss LG and Samsung plasmas either. Which is why all the Plasma fans are looking elsewhere already.

 

I'm going to miss the F8500. I've considered buying one. I know exactly how good a plasma can look, which is to say profound. If price is factored into the equation, I'd even say that the F8500 is the best image-quality bargain for watching HD content on a 64-inch screen, and the 60-inch version is practically a steal.

 

I still thought the AX800U had more to offer than plasma in terms of total image quality, but I also know the F8500 would rock and roll when playing a 24p Blu-ray movie in a darkened room—the standard by which all plasmas are judged. In other words, for a dedicated home theater-style room, I'd look at what the F8500 offers—even though plasma technology is near the end of its lifespan.

 

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post #461 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

It's nice what you're doing but i want 4K movie content. I'm not spending thousands on a 4K TV just to watch home made videos and pretty demos on youtube. No offence to your work. I want to be able to buy a nice selection of movies. Or even stream from Netflix until a 4KBD format is made (if).

We shall agree to disagree on that point, but if you're not in to creating video then I can understand. In case you're not aware, you can stream 4K from Netflix. Limited content at this point, but it is there and more is coming.
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And i want an official new 4K standard to be used that's better than what we use for 1080p. I'm not just buying more pixels.

Um, the current 4K world IS better in ways other than just 'more pixels'. Seems as if you haven't actually seen a UHD TV. Color is much improved as any visit to a retailer will show. Even my 'home made 4K videos' show significant improvement in the color palette vs any HD camera I've used before...and I've used many. wink.gif

It's not just about pixels, but those additional pixels sure do make for a more engaging experience.
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Simple; the inherent way LCD's work. We've all have seen LCD's before. The underlying tech is the same. vs a plasma a plasma outperforms it in the most important PQ areas, and while having that realistic film look. It's always been that way. I don't see anything different about the way AX800U works that would suddenly change this.

You haven't been following the progression of LED/LCDs. They have been improving significantly. I would hold the Sharp Elite up to any plasma and it would do just fine with the exception of viewing angles. The latest Sonys look spectacular.

I've had both plasma and LCD, still do, and I find there is often a lack of objectivity on both sides of the fence. At times it borders on silliness. Both techs have their pluses and minuses.

Most importantly, because the essentials of a technology are essentially the same, that does not mean the tech cannot be substantially improved. The internal combustion engine has undergone vast improvements, but the underlying technology is essentially the same as it was decades ago.
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post #462 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I'm going to miss the F8500. I've considered buying one. I know exactly how good a plasma can look, which is to say profound. If price is factored into the equation, I'd even say that the F8500 is the best image-quality bargain for watching HD content on a 64-inch screen.

I still thought the AX800U had more to offer than plasma in terms of total image quality, but I also know the F8500 would rock and roll when playing a 24p Blu-ray movie in a darkened room—the standard by which all plasmas are judged. In other words, for a dedicated home theater-style room, I'd look at what the F8500 offers—even though plasma technology is near the end of its lifespan.
 

I couldn't agree more. Plasmas were and are great, but they will not be the end of the PQ line. For the last several years I've seen the virtues of the best LEDs. In some respects they can be better than plasmas. In other respects plasmas can be better than LEDs.

But I will say this, I will never ever miss the effects of ABL. Some of the same folks that would fight me tooth and nail about ABL, are now praising the far less restrictive brightness of both OLED and LED. Whether they realize it or not, they are seeing the benefits of not being restrained by the ABL. That's a good thing. smile.gif
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post #463 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 05:39 AM
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Um, the current 4K world IS better in ways other than just 'more pixels'. Seems as if you haven't actually seen a UHD TV. Color is much improved as any visit to a retailer will show. Even my 'home made 4K videos' show significant improvement in the color palette vs any HD camera I've used before...and I've used many. wink.gif
 

 

There is no consumer material available that is an improvement on 8 bit 4:2:0 Rec709, and has a data rate higher than Blu-Ray. Current and not too distant tech has been able to display such material properly, and I do not see how a UHD TV will improve upon this with regards to color and the quality of the pixels.

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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post


Mark didn't say 'satisfied' but it surely augments what's out there, doesn't it? What do you find wrong with 'home made 4K videos'? Have you seen this on a 4K display? What do you find wrong with creating as much great looking 4K content as you like? I'm seriously confused.

I took one of my edited videos to a Sony Store to see how it looked on the new 2014 Sonys. The Store Manager asked for permission to make a copy so that they could run it on one of their new displays. A customer that was there bought the camera on the spot after seeing the video. He too liked the idea of creating his own content.

Yes, there isn't much 4K content out there right now, but I've certainly found a way to bridge the gap to some degree, and I'm having a blast doing it. smile.gif


I don't think he meant to disrespect your work, just to honestly point out that someone holding back from buying an expensive 4K TV isn't going to decide to jump in based on your video's. People want studio movies to watch before making this kind of investment.

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post #465 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post



I've had both plasma and LCD, still do, and I find there is often a lack of objectivity on both sides of the fence. At times it borders on silliness. Both techs have their pluses and minuses.

Best and most accurate statement made in the entire thread.
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post #466 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post



I've had both plasma and LCD, still do, and I find there is often a lack of objectivity on both sides of the fence. At times it borders on silliness. Both techs have their pluses and minuses.

Best and most accurate statement made in the entire thread.

^^^^

well said: I agree

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post #467 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 08:00 AM
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There is no consumer material available that is an improvement on 8 bit 4:2:0 Rec709, and has a data rate higher than Blu-Ray. Current and not too distant tech has been able to display such material properly, and I do not see how a UHD TV will improve upon this with regards to color and the quality of the pixels.

This.

Give me 4k with expanded color depth and a higher framerate and now you have my attention. At least Dolby is pushing boundaries with it's 'high dynamic range' technology.
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post #468 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Synnove View Post

There is no consumer material available that is an improvement on 8 bit 4:2:0 Rec709, and has a data rate higher than Blu-Ray. Current and not too distant tech has been able to display such material properly, and I do not see how a UHD TV will improve upon this with regards to color and the quality of the pixels.

IMO, the benefits of 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 are often exaggerated. 4:2:2 has its primary benefit in the editing process when significant grading is necessary. For the end-viewer, there is little difference between 4:2:2 color and 4:2:0. In fact, most viewers would never even notice it.

As for color in general, relative to 4K, the benefits becomes very obvious for anyone that's used a 4K video camera and has experience with regular HD cameras. There is an immediate and obvious improvement in colors. The same is true when watching the many 4K demos on various UHD TVs.
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I don't think he meant to disrespect your work, just to honestly point out that someone holding back from buying an expensive 4K TV isn't going to decide to jump in based on your video's. People want studio movies to watch before making this kind of investment.

I didn't take it as disrespect, but I was trying to point out that the possibility exists to create as much 'content' as your heart desires IF you enjoy shooting video. Contrary to what you may think, for some people who are very serious about shooting video (not professionally), that content creation can be a significant part of the decision making process in terms of buying a UHD TV. For others, who could care less about this, not so much. But don't discount the video enthusiasts, they're out there.

My video wasn't intended to create a mass movement toward the 4K sales floors. It was merely to show that you can be in control of a segment of the 'content creation' arena if you so choose.
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post #470 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 09:14 AM
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I didn't take it as disrespect, but I was trying to point out that the possibility exists to create as much 'content' as your heart desires IF you enjoy shooting video. Contrary to what you may think, for some people who are very serious about shooting video (not professionally), that content creation can be a significant part of the decision making process in terms of buying a UHD TV. For others, who could care less about this, not so much. But don't discount the video enthusiasts, they're out there.

My video wasn't intended to create a mass movement toward the 4K sales floors. It was merely to show that you can be in control of a segment of the 'content creation' arena if you so choose.

There aren't enough video creators to support the market of 4k television. Maybe some high dollar monitors-- but not mainstream TV manufacturing. I think that's what he was getting at.

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post #471 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
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I didn't take it as disrespect, but I was trying to point out that the possibility exists to create as much 'content' as your heart desires IF you enjoy shooting video. Contrary to what you may think, for some people who are very serious about shooting video (not professionally), that content creation can be a significant part of the decision making process in terms of buying a UHD TV. For others, who could care less about this, not so much. But don't discount the video enthusiasts, they're out there.

My video wasn't intended to create a mass movement toward the 4K sales floors. It was merely to show that you can be in control of a segment of the 'content creation' arena if you so choose.

There aren't enough video creators to support the market of 4k television. Maybe some high dollar monitors-- but not mainstream TV manufacturing. I think that's what he was getting at.

I think we all get that.

but the point is the potential of 4K: it is coming....and there are many early adopters here that are already utilizing it: we are not suggesting you run out and buy a 4k display just yet smile.gif

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post #472 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 11:35 AM
 
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True, but fortunately we're not talking about random low-end LCDs here. Most of these threads are devoted to the high end LED/LCDs. smile.gif
Right, but I'd still prefer the LGs to a good portion of them based on what I seek in PQ (better motion rez without interpolation, better screen uniformity, avoidance of a panel lottery scenario requiring countless returns, etc.).
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post #473 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 12:03 PM
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Like most of us here on AVS, I too would like to see the full implementation of all these new upcoming technological advancements........However I DO NOT BELIEVE WE WILL SEE HALF OF WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED TO US.

I have said this before on a few other threads that address some of these new up-coming technologies, we will never see half of what this industry is proposing.

Rec 2020 - forget it (maybe in 10 years) .....way too involved to implement, we will get DCI at best.
4:4:4 - no way, we will be lucky to get 4:2:2 as the new standard.
16 bit panels - please do not get me started on this..... they will settle on 10 bit, 12 bit if we get lucky.
HDR - I can see it happening if Dolby has enough studios backing this.....again a big "IF".
HFR - sure, this I can see perhaps making it.

Remember "DEEP COLOUR" guys, sure most displays can handle it but name me one film/program/short etc that ever implemented this (SORRY, your own camcorder movies don't count)

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post #474 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 01:00 PM
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Rec 2020 - forget it (maybe in 10 years) .....way too involved to implement, we will get DCI at best.
4:4:4 - no way, we will be lucky to get 4:2:2 as the new standard.
16 bit panels - please do not get me started on this..... they will settle on 10 bit, 12 bit if we get lucky.

 

I'd say five years. for 2020. We really aren't *that* far off when it comes to light sources that'll cover it properly (OLED, Quantum Dot, better RGB LED systems, laser). I recall that Vizio mentioned 80% or so coverage when they were discussing their future high end sets? I doubt we'll be able to display 100% for quite a while, but there's strong chance the color space will be standardized and used. Doesn't necessarily matter if you can fill that color space as film prints and DCI masters do not contain that much color information, but it's good to at least have the ability; black and white films still use REC709 even though they do not use the space fully.

 

4:2:2 would be perfectly suitable. 4:4:4 is mostly useful for grading, if one can even tell the difference in normal footage.

 

10 bit should be enough for consumer sets. If rec 2020 is adopted for UHD blu-rays or whatever the successor to blu is, then 12 bit would be more suitable. Currently for grading footage 10 bit is by far the most commonly used format.

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post #475 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 01:14 PM
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^^^^ I understand your points Synnove, however there is a big difference between having the technology "ready to go", for example, HDR, and actually getting the studios and CE manufacturers implementing it on the production side (movies) and hardware site (TVs).
This is my point, we have tech out there that is fantastic, yet politics, money among other things will prevent much of this great technology to see the light of day in our homes.

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post #476 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 03:01 PM
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Update 29 May 2014: Panasonic UK’s TV product manager Craig Cunningham has confirmed to us that the Viera AX802 series will not have Netflix 4K support despite the presence of inbuilt HEVC decoder. It’s a hardware issue which is not addressable by firmware update.

That was added to the hdtvtest review. Is the U.S model the exact same and won't have the support?

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post #477 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rlindo View Post

That was added to the hdtvtest review. Is the U.S model the exact same and won't have the support?

Interesting. If there is a hardware requirement above HEVC support, I wonder how many other 2014 4K models with HEVC support won't be able to handle it? And what's up with Netflix requiring some proprietary hardware solution unique to it's streaming? Don't we have enough standards they could have operated within?
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post #478 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 04:11 PM
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Remember the good ole days when TV purchasers had more choices...rolleyes.gif




Mid 2000s

CRT Direct View HD sets from Sony
LCoS Rear Projection in JVC D-ILA and Sony SXRD versions
LCD backlit with CCFL and LED Full Arrays from a myriad including Philips, Mitsubishi, and JVC
Plasma from Pioneer, Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, Vizio, NEC, Fujitsu, and Hitachi
DLP HD Rear Projection in Samsung and Mitsubishi flavors
CRT HD Rear Projection from Pioneer, Hitachi, Mitsubishi and Toshiba

Off course Front Projection in CRT, DLP, LCD, and LCoS.

That was when FED & SED tech displays were rumored to be going into production as well.
Would have been an alternative to OLED.

Now there is basically nothing than lousy LED edge lit crap that hasn't improved in ages.
All the hyped Full Array Local Dimming that might hold their own against plasma sets are not out & probably won't be until Winter.
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post #479 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 04:57 PM
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That is correct. The unit I received for testing is the same unit Sony ship all around Canada for trainings, demo, etc. It was also used at my client's store grand opening at the beginning of this month.

Must have been pretty beat up then, by the time you got it? Any comments on what you did see?

I assume this will definitely outperform the Panasonic 800 - will be interesting to see the Panasonic 900 up against the Sony 950.
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post #480 of 1369 Old 05-29-2014, 05:26 PM
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Other than minor scratches, the unit itself is surprisingly in (relative) mint condition.

From my observations:
1. The upscaling is amazing. It's pretty convincing even when A/B compared to the actual 4K source
2. Black level is not surprisingly amazing.
3. Dynamic Range extension is actually effective resulting in more realistic picture
4. Motion resolution is very good. Unfortunately I only have 1080p FPD disc, there is hardly any degradation when the upscaled 1080p pattern was used.
5. Plays Netflix 4K no problem with connection speed of 16 Mbps although I'd rather watch an upscaled 1080p blu-ray due to the over sharpening of Netflix 4K. This is a Netflix problem, not the TV's.
6. Uniformity is very good
7. Low APL and shadow details are very good after calibration
8. Red push is back to Sony lineup (nit just this model, unfortunately) but not distracting at all but I can't find the code to disable it.
10. Rather wide viewing angle, most probably due to FALD as opposed to the panel itself.

Definitely better than the 800 demo.

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