Panasonic Beats Plasma Picture Quality with TC-AX800U Series - Page 32 - AVS Forum
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post #931 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Just the fact that Mark is entertaining the idea of putting this Panasonic LED up to his F5300 plasma says more then any plasma fan can ever say about plasma's vs. LEDs.

Do you think someone reviewing a ZT60 would ever entertain the idea of comparing it to a 2013 Vizio E series TV? That would be the biggest joke on the planet but here we are getting an F5300 put up against a high end Panny 4K TV. Just for that plasma tech deserves a pat on the back.
Dollar-for-dollar and in a dark room plasma is amazing, I don't think LED can compete like that. IMO, it takes up to three or four times the money for LCD to beat a decent plasma in a dark room environment—the F5300 is $800 for 60 inches. The Vizio E is as good as it gets when it comes to a budget LED. I asked a very well-known TV reviewer what I should buy in terms of a TV that represents the best value for sixty inches under a grand—a "standard reference" for the budget segment. He said Vizio E all the way (which surprised me), I bought the F5300.
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post #932 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 01:56 PM
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Dollar-for-dollar and in a dark room plasma is amazing, I don't think LED can compete like that. IMO, it takes up to three or four times the money for LCD to beat a decent plasma in a dark room environment—the F5300 is $800 for 60 inches. The Vizio E is as good as it gets when it comes to a budget LED. I asked a very well-known TV reviewer what I should buy in terms of a TV that represents the best value for sixty inches under a grand—a "standard reference" for the budget segment. He said Vizio E all the way (which surprised me), I bought the F5300.
That wouldn't happen to be a certain cnet reviewer would it?

I just read the cnet review of the Vizio E series and it was very good. They talk it up as the budget model to beat in 2014 (though they were quick to point out it's not as pretty as their former budget champ: the ST60). It's amazing what even as few as 12 (or is it 16?) zones of FALD will do for an LCD. The world needs more FALD LCDs, particularly affordable FALD LCDs, especially now that plasma is on it's way out and OLED is still struggling to establish itself.
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post #933 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
The thread asserts that the ax800 'beats' the Zt60 and by extension every other panasonic plasma as the ZT was the pinnacle of that company's plasma tech. Interpret that as you will. Specific enough? Mark has already allowed that his initial observation may not be repeatable in his own test environment but he is standing firm on the claim that the ax800 should 'beat' the best plasmas panasonic (or maybe anyone) ever produced. I disagree but I respect him for sticking to his guns at least.

Wth, before you put more words in my mouth how about you go find a post by myself that supports this unilateral position you claim I hold. Find one definitive statement from me that corroborates what you say I said.
The very post of mine you quote says right there at the beginning that I don't know if it was you or Eric. Hopefully your corneas weren't burned beyond repair. :-p
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post #934 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 02:03 PM
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No more instant pop up post alerts ? Refresh ,refresh ,refresh, refresh lol.

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post #935 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 02:06 PM
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The very post of mine you quote says right there at the beginning that I don't know if it was you or Eric. Hopefully your corneas weren't burned beyond repair. :-p
I am a little blind when the sun is out! Lol!
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post #936 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Just the fact that Mark is entertaining the idea of putting this Panasonic LED up to his F5300 plasma says more then any plasma fan can ever say about plasma's vs. LEDs.

Do you think someone reviewing a ZT60 would ever entertain the idea of comparing it to a 2013 Vizio E series TV? That would be the biggest joke on the planet but here we are getting an F5300 put up against a high end Panny 4K TV. Just for that plasma tech deserves a pat on the back.
Yeah, silly Mark for looking to compare the Panny to the PLASMA HE OWNS. I guess he should go out and buy a last gen Kuro or a ZT60 just so you won't find his comparison "a joke."


You have become the most vocal diehard here yet from what I gather you have not seen this AX800 set or any other new LED. Why don't YOU go grab one and compare it to your VT65 instead of just going on and on....and on towards every other poster who either disagrees with you or calls you out on something and going on about how big a "joke" Mark's comparison will be.

I'm still trying to figure out what exactly you are trying to accomplish in this thread. You are dead certain no LCD can match or exceed the top plasmas so why the interest in posting and following the thread? Are you waiting for Mark to say "nope, it doesn't match the ZT60" so you can I guess rub it in and stroke your ego?

At least Sage has eased up while you still seem to be trying to argue with anyone and everyone who doesn't hold the same view as you. It really is amusing (yet sad) coming from someone who hasn't even seen the set in question.
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post #937 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 02:54 PM
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As a brief update, I had a much longer, much more hands-on session with the AX800U. I also had the lead engineer on that project at my side to answer any questions.

First things first—the "beats plasma" headline is conditional—like the Sharp Elite, this TV only does its best work in a narrow viewing cone. Outside that narrow cone, it's appearance reverts to something more typically LCD-like. That's because the initial measurable drop in contrast is in the blacks.

Secondly, depending on how it's set up and viewed, it can produce images that truly rival what plasma looks like in a dark room, but it can pull that trick off in almost any lighting. So, the viewing angle is narrower but the tolerance for ambient light is much higher.

Third, the UK Panasonic exec who make the comment about 4K Netflix never working on the AX800U was wrong. I have a new official statement on that topic:

"The AX800 is fully compatible with HEVC (H.265). Netflix 4K streaming is the only service not supported at launch (regular Netflix streaming is certified & available). We are in the process of obtaining certification for the 4K streaming, and we are confident that we will be able to resolve the issue in the near future."
- Panasonic
Mark,


Thank you for all the information and especially the news about Netflix 4k. I just received my 65" AX800 (U.S.) yesterday and while I am still fiddling with it and putting it through it's paces, I am really loving the set. I have a Sony XBR 900a 4k in my living room and comparing the same images me and my wife think the Panasonic looks a bit better.


Please keep us posted as you get more information on the set and perhaps some of the answers to the questions you asked the Panasonic rep. Also, since you are getting one in your lab, if you can give us your calibrated settings so I can try them out that would be great!


Thanks again!

-Hawkmoon
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post #938 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 03:04 PM
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The reports of my easing up are greatly exaggerated.

I don't think there is much to be learned from comparing the F5300 to the AX800. Maybe for bragging points for us plasma 'fanatics' if it excels in certain areas but the displays are in two total different markets. I'm only interested in the ax800 as it concerns ultimate picture quality versus what I believe to be the best displays ever made (to this point): the ZT/VT60. Despite the popular opinion around here most of us that own plasmas know it was going to go away eventually and, believe it or not, have been looking for a display that could match our enthusiasm for those high contrast, inky black plasmas we love. OLED is the obvious answer when it comes to ultimate image quality but they have yet to prove themselves in the market, have legitimate longevity concerns and are out of the reach of most consumers. In other words: at risk to fail. LCD is a proven tech but not one that has satisfied those of is primarily concerned with image quality specifically when it comes to dim to dark room watching. Sure there have been exceptions: the sharp elite and various FALD models from samsung and sony but those high-end LCDs have shown little staying power in the market.
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post #939 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
The reports of my easing up are greatly exaggerated.

I don't think there is much to be learned from comparing the F5300 to the AX800. Maybe for bragging points for us plasma 'fanatics' if it excels in certain areas but the displays are in two total different markets. I'm only interested in the ax800 as it concerns ultimate picture quality versus what I believe to be the best displays ever made (to this point): the ZT/VT60. Despite the popular opinion around here most of us that own plasmas know it was going to go away eventually and, believe it or not, have been looking for a display that could match our enthusiasm for those high contrast, inky black plasmas we love. OLED is the obvious answer when it comes to ultimate image quality but they have yet to prove themselves in the market, have legitimate longevity concerns and are out of the reach of most consumers. In other words: at risk to fail. LCD is a proven tech but not one that has satisfied those of is primarily concerned with image quality specifically when it comes to dim to dark room watching. Sure there have been exceptions: the sharp elite and various FALD models from samsung and sony but those high-end LCDs have shown little staying power in the market.
For you, as far as TVs that might see the light of day this year, it's going to be a tossup between the AX900U and the Vizio R, I suspect. Although the Vizio P might slot in as a very good option at a unique price point. I don't see you ever being happy with an edgelit TV, and that's about the end of the story.

Frankly, I think the P is going to be the most formidable TV of the year, because it'll actually cost less than the reference plasmas did. Slotting just above that, the AX900U should be a viable replacement for the ZT60; if even minor improvements are made to that panel versus what was shown at CES 2014.

If the Vizio R comes out this year... it's fair to say that most industry pros who saw that panel at CES immediately recognized it as a game-changer. The main question is... at what price (for a Vizio!)

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post #940 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 03:32 PM
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Yeah, silly Mark for looking to compare the Panny to the PLASMA HE OWNS. I guess he should go out and buy a last gen Kuro or a ZT60 just so you won't find his comparison "a joke."


You have become the most vocal diehard here yet from what I gather you have not seen this AX800 set or any other new LED. Why don't YOU go grab one and compare it to your VT65 instead of just going on and on....and on towards every other poster who either disagrees with you or calls you out on something and going on about how big a "joke" Mark's comparison will be.

I'm still trying to figure out what exactly you are trying to accomplish in this thread. You are dead certain no LCD can match or exceed the top plasmas so why the interest in posting and following the thread? Are you waiting for Mark to say "nope, it doesn't match the ZT60" so you can I guess rub it in and stroke your ego?

At least Sage has eased up while you still seem to be trying to argue with anyone and everyone who doesn't hold the same view as you. It really is amusing (yet sad) coming from someone who hasn't even seen the set in question.
If the point I was trying to make is way above your head please don't quote me because everything you said here is dead wrong. Especially about me calling Mark's comparison a joke. Re-read boy, re-read....It will eventually come to you.
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post #941 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Dollar-for-dollar and in a dark room plasma is amazing, I don't think LED can compete like that. IMO, it takes up to three or four times the money for LCD to beat a decent plasma in a dark room environment—the F5300 is $800 for 60 inches. The Vizio E is as good as it gets when it comes to a budget LED. I asked a very well-known TV reviewer what I should buy in terms of a TV that represents the best value for sixty inches under a grand—a "standard reference" for the budget segment. He said Vizio E all the way (which surprised me), I bought the F5300.
Are you taking 2013 E series or 2014?
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post #942 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Are you taking 2013 E series or 2014?
2014 E series.

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post #943 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 03:43 PM
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2014 E series.
Yeah, I was originally taking about the 2013. I am expecting good things to come from Vizio's 2014 line. The P series looks really exciting. Won't even mention the R because it will either not come or be priced at a crazy level.

But Vizio FALD is a thumbs up from me.
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post #944 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 03:44 PM
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@imagic

Have you seen the AX800U owners' thread? There was a mention of 65" version having banding issues. Did you notice anything similar?
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post #945 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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@imagic

Have you seen the AX800U owners' thread? There was a mention of 65" version having banding issues. Did you notice anything similar?
No, I didn't see anything like that on the one I looked at. On the other hand, what are the chances the TV Panasonic had in its own lab would be defective? Basically zero.

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post #946 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 04:52 PM
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@imagic

Have you seen the AX800U owners' thread? There was a mention of 65" version having banding issues. Did you notice anything similar?
Look again as we start getting these TV's it's pretty obvious this was a one off problem and apparently the owner hasn't even yet decided if it is worth exchanging the set so it can't be too bad. i.e. nobody else is having this problem.
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post #947 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 04:52 PM
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Just the fact that Mark is entertaining the idea of putting this Panasonic LED up to his F5300 plasma says more then any plasma fan can ever say about plasma's vs. LEDs.

Do you think someone reviewing a ZT60 would ever entertain the idea of comparing it to a 2013 Vizio E series TV? That would be the biggest joke on the planet but here we are getting an F5300 put up against a high end Panny 4K TV. Just for that plasma tech deserves a pat on the back.
Eric and others, let's not get carried away. It says nothing about plasma and it says nothing about LED. What it does say is that the only plasma Mark has in his house is the F5300.

So this comparison is being done because it's the only comparison that Mark can do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Mark.
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post #948 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 04:59 PM
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For you, as far as TVs that might see the light of day this year, it's going to be a tossup between the AX900U and the Vizio R, I suspect. Although the Vizio P might slot in as a very good option at a unique price point. I don't see you ever being happy with an edgelit TV, and that's about the end of the story.

Frankly, I think the P is going to be the most formidable TV of the year, because it'll actually cost less than the reference plasmas did. Slotting just above that, the AX900U should be a viable replacement for the ZT60; if even minor improvements are made to that panel versus what was shown at CES 2014.

If the Vizio R comes out this year... it's fair to say that most industry pros who saw that panel at CES immediately recognized it as a game-changer. The main question is... at what price (for a Vizio!)
Mark, what's the latest on the 4K screen sizes that Vizio is contemplating? Any in the 75-80" area?
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post #949 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Eric and others, let's not get carried away. It says nothing about plasma and it says nothing about LED. What it does say is that the only plasma Mark has in his house is the F5300.

So this comparison is being done because it's the only comparison that Mark can do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Mark.
Well, it' definitely the only plasma I own. Panasonic does have four loaner ZT60s, but they are hard to get ahold of.

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post #950 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 05:16 PM
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Eric and others, let's not get carried away. It says nothing about plasma and it says nothing about LED. What it does say is that the only plasma Mark has in his house is the F5300.

So this comparison is being done because it's the only comparison that Mark can do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Mark.
Yeah, but I am willing to bet his F5300 has a great picture. Of course not the best TV for daytime viewing with the lack of a filter on it.
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post #951 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 05:17 PM
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If the Vizio R comes out this year... it's fair to say that most industry pros who saw that panel at CES immediately recognized it as a game-changer. The main question is... at what price (for a Vizio!)
If?!?!? With all your connections within the industry that's the best you can do? Vizio won't even say on the record that they still plan to release it in 2014?
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post #952 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, but I am willing to bet his F5300 has a great picture. Of course not the best TV for daytime viewing with the lack of a filter on it.
No, but I have all my walls painted gray, and a gray carpet. I can control the light in the room and I use a bias light. I do all I can do to make it look faithful to the source. For the money it produces a ridiculously good picture, and it's resistance to image retention is quite superior to the last Panasonic plasma I owned.

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post #953 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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If?!?!? With all your connections within the industry that's the best you can do? Vizio won't even say on the record that they still plan to release it in 2014?
There not a single TV maker that is going to let one reporter break news like that. Release dates, when they exist, are under embargo until there is a press release.

That said, the statement I got back when I asked is that the company is that it is going to stick to the release schedule it announced at CES 2014, and that includes the R series as a 2014 model. That's all I can offer you.

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post #954 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 05:47 PM
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There not a single TV maker that is going to let one reporter break news like that. Release dates, when they exist, are under embargo until there is a press release.
I didn't complain that they didn't give you a release date. I complained that they wouldn't even confirm on the record that they plan to release it in 2014.

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That said, the statement I got back when I asked is that the company is that it is going to stick to the release schedule it announced at CES 2014, and that includes the R series as a 2014 model. That's all I can offer you.
That's a pretty weak statement since they didn't commit to any real timeframe for the Reference series at CES. Even you are using the phrase "if", not " when" and presumably you had some off the record conversations with them.

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post #955 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 05:57 PM
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No, but I have all my walls painted gray, and a gray carpet. I can control the light in the room and I use a bias light. I do all I can do to make it look faithful to the source. For the money it produces a ridiculously good picture, and it's resistance to image retention is quite superior to the last Panasonic plasma I owned.
Sounds like your all setup for a projector.
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post #956 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like your all setup for a projector.
Yes, I am always ready for a projector, I've had my share of them over the years.

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post #957 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I didn't complain that they didn't give you a release date. I complained that they wouldn't even confirm on the record that they plan to release it in 2014.


That's a pretty weak statement since they didn't commit to any real timeframe for the Reference series at CES. Even you are using the phrase "if", not " when" and presumably you had some off the record conversations with them.
It is what it is, sorry.

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It is what it is, sorry.
No need to apologize for them. They will just lose sales since they want to withhold information when they're the ones who are late to market without an established reputation or history of being a high end player.
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post #959 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 06:52 PM
 
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No, but I have all my walls painted gray, and a gray carpet. I can control the light in the room and I use a bias light. I do all I can do to make it look faithful to the source. For the money it produces a ridiculously good picture, and it's resistance to image retention is quite superior to the last Panasonic plasma I owned.
And that last point is what has me itching to jump off the bandwagon in fact. It's truly the Achilles heel of what was an otherwise reference set of displays, at least in my experience and compared to my former Kuro. I'll be forced to jump back into LCD land or OLED (after selling a kidney), and I am not yet convinced I can take the PQ hit with the former.
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post #960 of 1414 Old 06-12-2014, 06:55 PM
 
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For you, as far as TVs that might see the light of day this year, it's going to be a tossup between the AX900U and the Vizio R, I suspect.
Why mention those but ignore the Sony XBR950B? It has the most zones out of any FALD this year short of the V (for vaporware) R.
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