Panasonic Beats Plasma Picture Quality with TC-AX800U Series - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Well, that's quite a different post than your first. You originally said you never had a hint of IR. That was incorrect as I suspected.

IR is what it is, image retention that eventually disappears (either quickly or not so quickly). IR that doesn't go away is called burn-in. Let's not split hairs here. These are terms that everyone familiar with this tech knows and the terminology has been around for years. I'm not a newcomer here, you might want to check my join date.

Just so you know, uneven wear IS the causative factor for burn-in, particularly when the display has fewer hours on it, and it can rarely be cured by screen wiping functions and the like. Again, it is the causative factor for burn-in. And yes, the plasma that I saw was suffering from burn-in, not any form of IR. The manager had tried for weeks to remove it and there was no change in the ESPN graphics that were now permanent. Call it whatever you like, uneven wear, burn-in, permanent IR, but the fact remains it was permanent.

The point is, emissive displays such as plasma and OLED are prone to these problems and they are simply another consideration to factor in when deciding between different display techs.

Well, when most people say IR they mean persistent IR so excuse me for not being specific. I can't imagine getting upset about temporary IR that goes away within minutes.

Also, IR is NOT uneven wear / burn in. Totally different, in fact.
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post #992 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 07:44 AM
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Hey, Mark, could you find out when Panasonic is going to release this set for sale in retail and internet stores in the U.S.? I really want to see this set with my own eyes before considering a purchse. Thanks!
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post #993 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Well, when most people say IR they mean persistent IR so excuse me for not being specific. I can't imagine getting upset about temporary IR that goes away within minutes.
Really? So it doesn't bother you that you can see an after image as the scene changes which can last for several minutes? Really? I guess we have different definitions as to picture quality.

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Also, IR is NOT uneven wear / burn in. Totally different, in fact.
I never said it was. Burn-in IS uneven wear as I said previously. The entire point of my post was to prove that you HAVE experienced IR despite saying you never saw a trace of it. You then tried to split hairs and take the definition of IR and expand it to degrees I've never seen or heard of. IR is what IR is, image retention. Whether it lasts seconds, minutes or hours, it's still image retention.

It bothers me and detracts from a scene's purity, depending on content, for however long it lasts.
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post #994 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 08:01 AM
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Hey, Mark, could you find out when Panasonic is going to release this set for sale in retail and internet stores in the U.S.? I really want to see this set with my own eyes before considering a purchse. Thanks!
I'd also like to hear what larger screen sizes they're contemplating.
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post #995 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
I've also had several LCDs at work that exhibit varying degrees of burn in-- yes LCDs can have screen burn although the mechanics of how it occurs are a bit different.
And it's such a rare phenomena relative to plasma or OLED, that's it's not even worth discussing. I can run ESPN or anything with a static logo, for hours on end, and see no trace of any residual image, let alone burn-in.

LED/LCD is a very 'care-free' display technology in terms of this issue. Plasma & OLED is not.
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post #996 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Plasma didn't need all this electronic trickery ,what would be next? Ambilight like Philips?

This is for apostate ...can someone put a list of parts and software inventions that an LCD need in order to project a good picture, also include the issues behind each one.
I always find posts like this amusing and they persist year after year...always from the plasma crowd.

The television image IS trickery whether it's produced by a CRT, LED, OLED, PLASMA or whatever. Because one tech uses different means of producing that TRICKERY doesn't add or detract from the end equation. It's the final on-screen image that counts. You guys really need to find some new material. This stuff has gotten beyond silly.
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post #997 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 08:15 AM
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... devils advocate here. If people continue to engage the anti-LCD commenters, they will continue to respond to defend their point of view.

At this point it's just debate for the sake of debating. I enjoy it, since clearly neither side is willing to back down, so it tends to keep the topic interesting. Though plenty others in this thread seem to disagree with me on that point.

You can't expect the other side to back down if you continue to trade blows with them.
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post #998 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post

LEDs work great in the 2 rooms we have one because nearly 99% of the time there are only 2 people or less looking at them, but in an area where you have 4, 5 or more someone is getting a washed out picture.
And that's 100% true. In my case, my wife and I watch our display 99% of the time. Therefore viewing angle is low down on my list of priorities. If it were 50/50, I'd be very concerned about viewing angles.
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post #999 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Really? So it doesn't bother you that you can see an after image as the scene changes which can last for several minutes? Really? I guess we have different definitions as to picture quality.



I never said it was. Burn-in IS uneven wear as I said previously. The entire point of my post was to prove that you HAVE experienced IR despite saying you never saw a trace of it. You then tried to split hairs and take the definition of IR and expand it to degrees I've never seen or heard of. IR is what IR is, image retention. Whether it lasts seconds, minutes or hours, it's still image retention.

It bothers me and detracts from a scene's purity, depending on content, for however long it lasts.
Did you read my post? I experienced it after over 8 hours of the same HUD lingering on the screen! Lol! And it went away within two MAYBE three minutes of watching regular programming! So that bothers you but clouding, uneven uniformity and color/contrast shift when off angle doesn't? You know what detracts me from a scene's purity? **** contrast! Lol!
And I'm not splitting hairs: burn in is damage, plain and simple. It's also NOT common. So I put up with some temporary IR (which was the one and only time I witnessed it, btw) for superior contrast, color saturation and motion resolution. I'll take that trade!

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And it's such a rare phenomena relative to plasma or OLED, that's it's not even worth discussing. I can run ESPN or anything with a static logo, for hours on end, and see no trace of any residual image, let alone burn-in.

LED/LCD is a very 'care-free' display technology in terms of this issue. Plasma & OLED is not.
To borrow Apostate's analogy from before: a Lexus is a very 'care-free' way to get around but but I wouldn't bother to take it down my favorite winding country road!

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post #1000 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hisma View Post
... devils advocate here. If people continue to engage the anti-LCD commenters, they will continue to respond to defend their point of view.

At this point it's just debate for the sake of debating. I enjoy it, since clearly neither side is willing to back down, so it tends to keep the topic interesting. Though plenty others in this thread seem to disagree with me on that point.

You can't expect the other side to back down if you continue to trade blows with them.
One of the cool things about AVS is it tolerates a fair bit more open debate than some other AV forums. The very definition of Forum is "designated space for public expression" so as long as the debate is on-topic, anything goes in terms of expressing and opinion on the topic—as long as debate in the comments doesn't devolve into bickering and personal attacks or go way off-topic.
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post #1001 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Hisma View Post
... devils advocate here. If people continue to engage the anti-LCD commenters, they will continue to respond to defend their point of view.

At this point it's just debate for the sake of debating. I enjoy it, since clearly neither side is willing to back down, so it tends to keep the topic interesting. Though plenty others in this thread seem to disagree with me on that point.

You can't expect the other side to back down if you continue to trade blows with them.
I'd agree with this. The only problem is that when people spout things that are simply untrue, for the sake of clarification, things need to be corrected. Subjective evaluations are one thing, but saying things that are simply untrue is something quite different.

Many come to AVS for purchasing decisions and some of them might be less informed than many AVS'rs. So I think it's important to separate the subjective from the factual. I think many of the posts here are trying to do just that.
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post #1002 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
One of the cool things about AVS is it tolerates a fair bit more open debate than some other AV forums. The very definition of Forum is "designated space for public expression" so as long as the debate is on-topic, anything goes in terms of expressing and opinion on the topic—as long as debate in the comments doesn't devolve into bickering and personal attacks or go way off-topic.
negativity aside, I've learned a lot about both plasma and LCD technology in this thread .
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post #1003 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Did you read my post? I experienced it after over 8 hours of the same HUD lingering on the screen! Lol! And it went away within two MAYBE three minutes of watching regular programming! So that bothers you but clouding, uneven uniformity and color/contrast shift when off angle doesn't? You know what detracts me from a scene's purity? **** contrast! Lol!
Where did I say that ANY display irregularities, whether inherent in plasma, LED/LCD or OLED don't bother me? However, as I mentioned before, 'color/contrast shift when off angle' does NOT bother me for the reasons I stated in another post. Where my wife and I sit it is a non-issue.

The 2014 4K LEDs that I've been looking at do NOT suffer from "**** contrast". Have you seen any? Doesn't seem that way to me. Almost all the reviews I've read thus far seem to be praising the contrast.

Did you know that uniformity issues can also exist with plasma? I had them on my...get ready for it...Pioneer Kuro!!! Holy cow!!!! Did he say that? Yup. So don't think plasma is immune to this issue. Yes, it 'potentially' can be worse on LEDs. But it's a question of degree. Emissive devices such as plasma and CRT are still subject to uniformity issues. When clouding or uniformity issues are not serious and can only be seen rarely, then it's not a major issue IMO.

When I picked the F8500, I did so for one major reason, to minimize the inevitable ABL issue of plasma. That issue can vary depending on the manufacturer and that issue DOES bother me. So for ME, it was important that I address that if I was going to be happy with another plasma.

The bottom line is that we all make concessions and trade-offs regardless of the display technology we choose. Your hot button may be different than mine and preaching to me what you think is a 'deal-break' will not change my mind if to me it's a relative non-issue. To try to make one tech look perfect and the other seriously flawed is both silly and very misleading.

I think we've exhausted this discussion...it was probably exhausted pages ago. It would be really nice to get back to the subject of the thread.

You may have the last word as I'm sure you will.
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CNet raved about the Sony HX850, which was edge-lit with 8 vertical pseudo-local dimming zones on each half of the display, for 16 total. I had the 46" for a few weeks before returning it, and it was horrible. The black levels were terrible unless the dimming was maxed out, and then the brightness fluctuations were horrendous in dark scenes. I seriously doubt that 16 "true" local dimming zones would be much better, and I take all these reviews that say things like "blooming is minimal" with a huge grain of salt.
This is interesting and brings up 2 points. First, I saw the black fluctuations on the HX850 too, albeit in very rare situations in the time I had it. This was one of the reasons why I found the W9 that replaced it to be better overall--Sony refined the dimming algorithm so that although the absolute black level was slightly less, it was more consistent and didn't show the fluctuation in non-end credit situations.

Which brings me to my second point. Absolute black level is not the end-all, be all of PQ. At least in my opinion. My initial review of the W9 stated just that--black levels are a little better on the HX (with the noted caveat) but overall picture was better. Color saturation, pop, and screen uniformity. The latter being more of a panel to panel variance, rather than model to model. And there were owners of the HX, ok one in particular, who refused to believe the W9 could be better. No way! The black levels are better! Fast forward a few months, he now owns the W after selling his perfectly functioning HX and is the most frequent poster on the W thread. Sometimes you really do have to see a display before believing.

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post #1005 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 09:12 AM
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I'd agree with this. The only problem is that when people spout things that are simply untrue, for the sake of clarification, things need to be corrected. Subjective evaluations are one thing, but saying things that are simply untrue is something quite different.

Many come to AVS for purchasing decisions and some of them might be less informed than many AVS'rs. So I think it's important to separate the subjective from the factual. I think many of the posts here are trying to do just that.
Lol! Ken, you crack me up. What did I say that was untrue? You want to come to my house and look at my plasma screens? Tell you what-- you bring your magnifying glass and I'll supply the beer and burgers!

As for your Pioneer-- that's unfortunate. It's also incredibly rare. Probably as rare as the half dozen LCDs we just replaced due to 'burn-in' IE ...........the pixels in certain over-used portions of the image no longer retain their ability to twist and allow light through like the rest of the screen producing the affect of the over-used image appearing 'burned-in' to the screen............

But to be clear: your individual experiences are representative of the experiences of the general populace while mine are just not valid and I'm simply 'spouting' misinformation. Good to know!

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post #1006 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 09:29 AM
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negativity aside, I've learned a lot about both plasma and LCD technology in this thread .
I'm absolutely positive you didn't learn anything from me! Lol! But in the words of the great John McClane: "Welcome to the party, Pal!"

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post #1007 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 09:31 AM
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Yes that feature makes calibration a joy instead of a chore. Stay tuned, my next step is to get a AX800U and calibrate it. That'll merit a new article/thread.
I will be looking forward to that! I hope you can get to it sooner, rather than later.

BTW, Panasonic's choice of shippers is pretty terrible. They were supposed to call to arrange delivery but they never did. I'm not real happy with their service.
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post #1008 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
One of the cool things about AVS is it tolerates a fair bit more open debate than some other AV forums. The very definition of Forum is "designated space for public expression" so as long as the debate is on-topic, anything goes in terms of expressing and opinion on the topic—as long as debate in the comments doesn't devolve into bickering and personal attacks or go way off-topic.
Well said and a thumbs up to AVS for that! What fun would it be if everyone just agreed with each-other. Every post would say "yup". lol

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I'd agree with this. The only problem is that when people spout things that are simply untrue, for the sake of clarification, things need to be corrected. Subjective evaluations are one thing, but saying things that are simply untrue is something quite different.
You mean like the comment that has been repeated over and over that you need to live in a cave if you want to watch a plasma?
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
And it's such a rare phenomena relative to plasma or OLED, that's it's not even worth discussing. I can run ESPN or anything with a static logo, for hours on end, and see no trace of any residual image, let alone burn-in.

LED/LCD is a very 'care-free' display technology in terms of this issue. Plasma & OLED is not.
It's a little early to damn OLED out the gate since the TVs just arrived last year. I have a feeling burn-in will ultimately be less of a problem for it than plasma (customer reports bear this out). The uneven wear issue from which it suffers now (but which is reversible) caused by, for instance, letterbox movies is more likely to be an effect of the immature backplane technology than OLED itself, so it will be interesting to see how gen 2 behaves upon arrival.

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post #1010 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 11:11 AM
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It's a little early to damn OLED out the gate since the TVs just arrived last year. I have a feeling burn-in will ultimately be less of a problem for it than plasma (customer reports bear this out). The uneven wear issue from which it suffers now (but which is reversible) caused by, for instance, letterbox movies is more likely to be an effect of the immature backplane technology than OLED itself, so it will be interesting to see how gen 2 behaves upon arrival.
I hope they iron out all their problem Vinnie...and reduce their prices considerably so that large screen (77"), 4K panels can be enjoyed by more people.

We shall see.
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post #1011 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 11:12 AM
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You mean like the comment that has been repeated over and over that you need to live in a cave if you want to watch a plasma?
Wasn't me that said that. I don't watch in a cave and I still enjoy my plasma. But yes, both sides can be guilty. However, certainly in this thread, it seems more of the hyperbole and 'defensive posture' is coming from one side.
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post #1012 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 11:22 AM
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Wasn't me that said that. I don't watch in a cave and I still enjoy my plasma. But yes, both sides can be guilty. However, certainly in this thread, it seems more of the hyperbole and 'defensive posture' is coming from one side.
Nah, I think it has been a fair fight. lol

I am really surprised more people are not excited about the Vizio P series. The E series is showing to be a really good budget tv, the M is showing even more promise. The P series will be interesting to see where it stacks up against the competition. The pricing is mid tier but I would not be surprised if PQ wise it matches that of the upper level edge lit competiton. I think that TV has my interest more then any other TV coming to market this year. With Vizio going FALD and pricing it at an unbelievably low price, that is what I call exciting.
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post #1013 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 11:29 AM
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^I'm sure he wasn't talking about me because I'm 100% OFFENSIVE!

Zing....
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post #1014 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 11:51 AM
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I am really surprised more people are not excited about the Vizio P series. The E series is showing to be a really good budget tv, the M is showing even more promise. The P series will be interesting to see where it stacks up against the competition. The pricing is mid tier but I would not be surprised if PQ wise it matches that of the upper level edge lit competiton. I think that TV has my interest more then any other TV coming to market this year. With Vizio going FALD and pricing it at an unbelievably low price, that is what I call exciting.
I think it's because many people, like me, are tired of the vagaries surrounding these panels. People are in the market now, and Vizio could be a bit clearer about release dates.

The other big issue for me, is screen sizes. I just can't begin to understand (other than a supply issue) why they go from 65" to 120" and nothing in-between! Hello? How many homes will have the wall space for a 120" screen. Add to that many people like myself, want a larger screen size (75"-85") to fully enjoy the benefits of 4K.

So for me that pretty much eliminates the "R" series and leaves the "P" series. I'm far from convinced the P series will be the best displays out there. Even there, we're talking about a max screen size of 70". So no interest from me for the P series either.
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With 64 max zones in the P series...your F8500 and my ZT60 will eat it for breakfast I'm afraid. We need to see local dimming panels again that at least match the number of the Sharp Elite, or at least I do. Only Vizio of all entities has proposed one so radical (that not only matches but beats all prior competition). Whether it's vaporware continues to be an unknown.
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post #1016 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 01:28 PM
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But still either 65" or 120" with the R series. Makes no sense to me and I've never seen another manufacturer do anything like it in terms of how they size their premium line.
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post #1017 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 01:36 PM
 
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Yes, they'd be wise to add one more in the 70" range.
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post #1018 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 01:50 PM
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Vizio always offer the same features that you see on mid to high end products ,but not performing at the same level.

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post #1019 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Vizio always offer the same features that you see on mid to high end products ,but not performing at the same level.
That's definitely how it used to be.

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post #1020 of 1369 Old 06-13-2014, 01:59 PM
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So to get back on the topic of the AX800u and how it compares to the ZT60 I'd like to illustrate how much of a difference there really is in black level between these two panels. Keep in mind, this comparison is more important for those that value dark room viewing. I'm not interested in getting in anymore pissing matches-- if you think this statistic is unimportant than ignore it. Anyways, this illustrates one of the big strengths that plasma (and OLED, for that matter) has over an LCD, namely: the ability of a dark pixel to not be 'contaminated' by a neighboring bright pixel. This is what creates plasma's (and OLED's) 'pop' and why I find the image they create so intoxicating. From hdtvtest.co.uk.

"Once we pegged peak white luminance to 120 cd/m2 as per our normal review protocol, the native black level on the TX50AX802B’s VA-type LCD panel measured 0.056 cd/m2 on both a full-field video black signal and a 4×4 ANSI chequerboard pattern. To the credit of Panasonic’s TV engineers, the Viera AX802/ AX800 doesn’t partake in any auto-dimming shenanigans when asked to display a full black screen unless [Adaptive Backlight Control] was engaged.
[Adaptive Backlight Control] activates the pseudo-local dimming technology on the TX-50AX802B, and comes in three flavours (“Min“, “Mid” and “Max“) besides “Off“. The “Min” setting lowered black level on a full black screen to 0.017 cd/m2 (ANSI black stayed the same at 0.056 cd/m2), but dimmed dark areas and midtones too much. As a consequence, shadow detail was obscured, and the image lost a fair bit of punch, so we dismissed it pretty quickly.

The [Adaptive Backlight Control] “Mid” and “Max” settings were much more useful. Both decreased MLL (minimum luminance level) on a full black screen to 0.007 cd/m2, although once again ANSI black remained unchanged at 0.056 cd/m2. Between the two, we preferred “Mid” which introduced less obvious near-black luminance fluctuations.

The ZT60:

"In any case, the TX-P60ZT65B’s ANSI contrast performance is also outstanding. It held onto its deep blacks during the ANSI checkerboard test better than any other Panasonic plasma, with blacks effectively staying put during this more difficult test, rising only by 0.001 cd/m2 to 0.004 cd/m2 relative to the full-screen black level measurement. Compare that to the step-down TX-P55VT65B, which had the same 0.003 cd/m2 full screen black level but 0.007 cd/m2 blacks assessed on an ANSI test. Just also remember that this difference is largely statistical. Due to the contrast detection characteristics/limitations of the human eye and brain (!) the tiny rise in black level is not visible due to the presence of brighter areas on screen to distract us. We imagine that the ZT65′s minutely superior ANSI contrast performance could be the result of the new Air Gapless Filter reducing flaring in the display. Either way, the difference is very small."


Note that no matter how deep the blacks got on a full black screen or in the letterbox bars due to the local dimming, the ANSI contrast remained consistent at a good-- for LCD-- .056 cd/m^2. The ZT and to a leeser extent VT were able to retain their excellent black level regardless of what else was going on in the image.

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