Panasonic Beats Plasma Picture Quality with TC-AX800U Series - Page 36 - AVS Forum
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post #1051 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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The important point of this thread is whatever we should trust the uk shootout or an observation by one person.

Impartial vs Partial judging.

The people that participated in a shootout vs two person that are claiming that this TV beats the VT and ZT picture quality without doing any test whatsoever.

The problem now is that even if the op do an extensive test on this 2 TVs we will not trust the results, unless he finally decide to be impartial judging this 2 TVs.
You know, last year at the Value Electronics shootout the Samsung F8500 "won" the audience vote, but the the calibrators who ran the event voted for the VT/ZT60 (it was a tie between the two). At that shootout, I voted for a tie between the VT60 and ZT60, and my votes turned out to be just about numerically identical to that of the calibrators, even though my vote was counted along with the audience.

Now you tell me, who was right... the audience that voted the F8500 winner? Or was it the pros who calibrated those TVs... Kevin Miller, Dewayne Davis, and David Mackenzie who together picket the ZT60? Was I right, or was I wrong to pick the ZT60 over the F8500?
Everyone was right because they picked a plasma.
As was appropriate last year, considering how weak the LCD lineup was in comparison. Of course if someone had brought a Samsung S9 to that shootout, I can guarantee that an LCD would have won, just as LCD won the year the Sharp Elite competed. If there's one thing I can tell you in no uncertain terms—the shootout was not science; it was a PR event put on by a TV dealer, run by calibrators, with a distinct pro-plasma bias... that's just based on the way the room was set up, with the three "expected winners" up front and center, and with the LCDs off to the side. There were many valid observations to be made about the performance of the various TVs, but in the end it can't be called impartial judging—for starters, the bezels of the TVs were exposed!

And, I'm willing to bet the F8500 wins this year's VE shootout. On the other hand, Robert Zohn—who owns Value Electronics and is running the shootout—says the LCDs have a real shot this year. Unfortunately, it looks like the AX800U won't be one of the TVs in that shootout.
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post #1052 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 05:09 PM
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They should crank the peak white levels way up on the plasmas to match LCDs, then compare.

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post #1053 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 05:22 PM
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You know, last year at the Value Electronics shootout the Samsung F8500 "won" the audience vote, but the the calibrators who ran the event voted for the VT/ZT60





I remember that the calibrators were experiencing floating blacks on the F8500.
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post #1054 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 05:38 PM
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post #1055 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 05:42 PM
 
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C'mon, Apostate...Sage never idolized me. As a videophile he's just jealous of the TV I own. If all you've ever known is LCD, I suppose I can understand why the prospect wouldn't phase you.

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Of course if someone had brought a Samsung S9 to that shootout, I can guarantee that an LCD would have won, just as LCD won the year the Sharp Elite competed.
Strong statement, but if it takes $40k to get an LCD to attain PQ that matches and/or eclipses that of a <$3k plasma in 2013, we clearly have a long ways to go.

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And, I'm willing to bet the F8500 wins this year's VE shootout. On the other hand, Robert Zohn—who owns Value Electronics and is running the shootout—says the LCDs have a real shot this year. Unfortunately, it looks like the AX800U won't be one of the TVs in that shootout.
That would be a bummer since no TV has won two years in a row in any previous shootout...it will speak to how 2014 has become a dismal year for the videophile (short of 4K/UHD junkies; sorry, Ken!). I don't understand why the AX800U won't be there...it's already in the homes of several customers.
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post #1056 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 06:12 PM
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The important point of this thread is whatever we should trust the uk shootout or an observation by one person.

Actually the point is neither. You should trust your eyes.
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post #1057 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 06:14 PM
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So no AX800 for this year shootout ?
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post #1058 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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C'mon, Apostate...Sage never idolized me. As a videophile he's just jealous of the TV I own. If all you've ever known is LCD, I suppose I can understand why the prospect wouldn't phase you.

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Of course if someone had brought a Samsung S9 to that shootout, I can guarantee that an LCD would have won, just as LCD won the year the Sharp Elite competed.
Strong statement, but if it takes $40k to get an LCD to attain PQ that matches and/or eclipses that of a <$3k plasma in 2013, we clearly have a long ways to go.

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And, I'm willing to bet the F8500 wins this year's VE shootout. On the other hand, Robert Zohn—who owns Value Electronics and is running the shootout—says the LCDs have a real shot this year. Unfortunately, it looks like the AX800U won't be one of the TVs in that shootout.
That would be a bummer since no TV has won two years in a row in any previous shootout...it will speak to how 2014 has become a dismal year for the videophile (short of 4K/UHD junkies; sorry, Ken!). I don't understand why the AX800U won't be there...it's already in the homes of several customers.
The price was closely related to screen size, but I never said LCD represents a better value than plasma.

When I went to Samsung's OLED debut press event last year, I literally called Scott Wilkinson from the show floor and said "OLED is a bust." Why? Because Samsung's big OLED event was full of LCDs, which the company clearly wanted the press to have a look at while they were there. And the thing is, the S9 made the OLED look like child's play, a toy. Now, one year later, Samsung is out of the OLED game and all-in with edgelit LCDs that perform better than ever.

Among the TVs likely to be in this year's event, the LCD I'm rooting for is definitely the Sony XBR-65X950B. Now, if it beats the F8500, will it be OK if to headline that article with "LCD beats Plasma at VE Shootout?"

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post #1059 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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So no AX800 for this year shootout ?
Based on what I've heard, it's unlikely that Panasonic will have a presence at this year's event.

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post #1060 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 06:20 PM
 
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I wouldn't argue too loudly about such a headline...we already know it will likely win in the black level dept. The blooming would be the last remaining vestige that would keep me away from such a panel. I know Samsung is the #1 TV manufacturer, but I refuse to call it a bust because of their decision to forgo OLED altogether (good on them for getting up to 10.5" mass production in tablet land at least). As long as LG is forging ahead, I'm not going to pretend they don't exist.
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The important point of this thread is whatever we should trust the uk shootout or an observation by one person.

Actually the point is neither. You should trust your eyes.





Actually the eyes and ears are not the best instruments to measure or calibrate audio and video.

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post #1062 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 07:11 PM
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The important point of this thread is whatever we should trust the uk shootout or an observation by one person.


Impartial vs Partial judging.

The people that participated in a shootout vs two person claiming that the AX800 beat the VT/ZT picture quality without doing any test whatsoever.

The problem now is that even if the op do an extensive test on this 2 TVs we will not trust the results, unless he finally decide to be impartial judging this 2 TVs
So this sounds like the game 'heads I win tails you lose'. Got it. It makes no difference how much experience those two people have judging displays...one of them someone I've met, known and had ISF'd my first CRT HDTV, Gary Merson.

Ah, nothing like objectivity.
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post #1063 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 07:28 PM
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Of course if someone had brought a Samsung S9 to that shootout, I can guarantee that an LCD would have won, just as LCD won the year the Sharp Elite competed.
Strong statement, but if it takes $40k to get an LCD to attain PQ that matches and/or eclipses that of a <$3k plasma in 2013, we clearly have a long ways to go.
Well, let's be fair, the Samsung is a gigantic 85" FALD display. Those are not the plasma sizes being discussed here. From what I've heard, the 2014 Sony 85" is even better and is $15,000 less than the Sammy. If we talk about a 65" 2014 Sony FALD, we're now $32,000 less, with probably similar PQ.

As Mark said, I'd love to see the bezels masked off so that we could finally get rid of persistent bias on either side. That may be the only way that some guys that don't think anything but a plasma or LED can produce excellent PQ, could come to the conclusion that the opposite tech could do the same.

But I suspect, even then, certain posters would be in denial once the bezels were revealed. It never ends.

And Vinnie, your original post seemed to imply that '4K junkies' were not videophiles. I'm sure I either misinterpreted that or your wording could have been better.

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Well, 4K junkies who seemingly fixate on resolution more than the other aspects of the PQ. Not implying that's you necessarily, but I get that vibe from some of the early adopters.

A blind test would be great...the clamoring for that continues to be something that I hope would-be organizers will accommodate in the future.
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I remember that the calibrators were experiencing floating blacks on the F8500.
It's been reported that the floating blacks issue was fixed by a subsequent firmware update, so it is entirely possible that the F8500 could perform better in 2014 than it did in 2013. However, I'm not sure I'd be willing to bet any money on the F8500 winning again. Come Monday when the final list of contenders is posted we'll know more...
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post #1066 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 08:44 PM
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The important point of this thread is whatever we should trust the uk shootout or an observation by one person.

Actually the point is neither. You should trust your eyes.





Actually the eyes and ears are not the best instruments to measure audio and video.
Agreed. That post made me cringe a little, perhaps a little too reflexively thinking of the whacko division of audiophiles who justify nearly every claim of validity by use of that same phrase, but substituting 'ears' for 'eyes'. While neither the eyes or ears are anywhere close to measuring instruments when it comes to evaluating accuracy and therefore reference quality, at least with video, I don't think the eyes are nearly as prone to delusion as the ears are.

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post #1067 of 1424 Old 06-14-2014, 08:51 PM
 
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As a videophile he's just jealous of the TV I own. If all you've ever known is LCD, I suppose I can understand why the prospect wouldn't phase you.
I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. Knowing your attitude, I am guessing that you are somehow implying that since my viewing experience is limited to LCDs I am not a videophile? Is that about right?

Are we still hung up on absolutes? Yes, your OLED has the deepest blacks but didn't we come to a conclusion that black level was only one part of what makes a great picture quality? You still don't agree that picture quality is about both internal and external factors like that the ambient light level has a big influence on the picture quality?

Didn't we conclude that neither plasma nor LCDs were perfect? Isn't that why we have a plasma, F8500, trying to be more "bright" like a LCD; and a LCD, like Sharp Elite, trying to be more "black" like plasma? That there are plethora of factors such as color saturation that contribute to picture quality.

You, yourself, stated that a single factor, 4K resolution, doesn't PQ make. Then why are you implying that a single factor that you value, black level, does make the PQ? I can't tell if you are being hypocritical or logically inconsistent but I know which way I am leaning.
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Actually the point is neither. You should trust your eyes.
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Actually the eyes and ears are not the best instruments to measure audio and video.
We are not talking about calibrating relying solely on our sensory organs. The eyes and ears are what determines what looks and sounds best TO YOU.

In the end, it's the subjective that matters. I don't care if a picture is deemed to be perfectly conformed to the "standards." If it doesn't look good TO ME, I will be adjusting the picture.
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As a videophile he's just jealous of the TV I own. If all you've ever known is LCD, I suppose I can understand why the prospect wouldn't phase you.
I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. Knowing your attitude, I am guessing that you are somehow implying that since my viewing experience is limited to LCDs I am not a videophile? Is that about right?

Are we still hung up on absolutes? Yes, your OLED has the deepest blacks but didn't we come to a conclusion that black level was only one part of what makes a great picture quality? You still don't agree that picture quality is about both internal and external factors like that the ambient light level has a big influence on the picture quality?

Didn't we conclude that neither plasma nor LCDs were perfect? Isn't that why we have a plasma, F8500, trying to be more "bright" like a LCD; and a LCD, like Sharp Elite, trying to be more "black" like plasma? That there are plethora of factors such as color saturation that contribute to picture quality.

You, yourself, stated that a single factor, 4K resolution, doesn't PQ make. Then why are you implying that a single factor that you value, black level, does make the PQ? I can't tell if you are being hypocritical or logically inconsistent but I know which way I am leaning.
I'm not interested in the pissing match but would simply rather you leave me out of your snarky narrative interludes. We do know that, up until now, the combination of PQ parameters that can best be appreciated in a light-controlled environment tend to favor plasma. I wasn't really enthused about video displays until HD came along, and I never put much weight on how a set performs in a brightly lit environment, especially after being afflicted with the HD bug. Significant light distraction is just not conducive to the escapism I seek to any significant degree. I now have the fortunate distinction of having owned the 3 major (well, it is a bit premature to call OLED major at this point) display technologies (short of a FALD) and feel I can speak from some experience here versus someone who has exclusively purchased only one of them. You can choose to be offended by that if you wish, but please leave me out of your 3rd person narratives all the same.
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post #1070 of 1424 Old 06-15-2014, 12:00 AM
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We are not talking about calibrating relying solely on our sensory organs. The eyes and ears are what determines what looks and sounds best TO YOU.

In the end, it's the subjective that matters. I don't care if a picture is deemed to be perfectly conformed to the "standards." If it doesn't look good TO ME, I will be adjusting the picture.





Are we are in a audio and video science forum?


Apostate if you don't understand the importance of a calibration equipment,then is ok ....
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Apostate if you don't understand the importance of a calibration equipment,then is ok ....
losservatore if you don't understand the importance of subjective perception, then is ok ....

You do realize that the pictures you've posted are not about calibration. The third picture illustrates that the lighting determines the perceived gray/black value. We don't all watch TV in exactly same lighting condition. We don't calibrate our TVs to one absolute standard. We calibrate our TVs to our individual viewing situtation.
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@losservatore

Did you delete your pictures? I wonder why.
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I deleted the pictures and some of my post with Quotes,First is not because of what you said sir. Is because this page was looking very messy, somehow the multi Quotes got mix probably because of the new software. Bye ....
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Apostate if you don't understand the importance of a calibration equipment,then is ok ....
losservatore if you don't understand the importance of subjective perception, then is ok ....

You do realize that the pictures you've posted are not about calibration. The third picture illustrates that the lighting determines the perceived gray/black value. We don't all watch TV in exactly same lighting condition. We don't calibrate our TVs to one absolute standard. We calibrate our TVs to our individual viewing situtation.
Besides contrast and brightness levels that are calibrated by eye dependent on the room lighting, but still calibrated to a standard through test patterns to achieve the best black levels and contrast levels that won't clip whites and crush blacks, everything is calibrated to a standard.

Calibrations are done to a standard. Gamma levels are set to a standard, you don't just move things around and say this looks good. Main colors and secondary colors are set to a standard, we don't use our eyes to tell us that red looks good, we use equipment to tell us that this is what red should look like. Grey scales are set to a standard.

Don't say we don't calibrate to a standard because you are wrong. What you should say is you do not particularly like a calibrated TV, but not be confused with that we don't calibrate to a standard.
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Well, 4K junkies who seemingly fixate on resolution more than the other aspects of the PQ. Not implying that's you necessarily, but I get that vibe from some of the early adopters.
The flip side of that is that many, including myself, think some underestimate the value that 4K brings to the table. I suspect if we had 4K plasmas we'd hear far fewer people scoffing at the value of the greatly increased resolution.
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However, I'm not sure I'd be willing to bet any money on the F8500 winning again. Come Monday when the final list of contenders is posted we'll know more...
For the calibrator's voting, bank on the F8500...assuming that's the only plasma, or an OLED. Remember the weirdness when a Kuro, out of production for years, was thrown in.
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Well, 4K junkies who seemingly fixate on resolution more than the other aspects of the PQ. Not implying that's you necessarily, but I get that vibe from some of the early adopters.
The flip side of that is that many, including myself, think some underestimate the value that 4K brings to the table. I suspect if we had 4K plasmas we'd hear far fewer people scoffing at the value of the greatly increased resolution.
I don't think anyone would complain about extra resolution. Heck, I know I wouldn't. I do think we have to question, is a 4K TV right now enough reason to ditch a great 1080p TV? Why should someone sell or get rid of their 1080p to purchase a new UHD TV? I cannot think of one reason. Maybe in 3-5 years but we will also have better TV's in 3 to 5 years as well.

So to me it makes sense to keep your 1080p TV's and possibly look towards the future for a 4K TV when more content is available and we start seeing an accepted standard for the tech.

If someone is going out today to buy a TV, maybe look at 4K TV's but what should stop them if there is a 1080p offering better PQ then that 4K TV? You can get a Seiki 4K TV for under $1,000. Should someone purchase that TV just because it is 4K over a much better TV that is 1080P? That is the question.

Also, your examples of 4K use with home video's would probably not be enough for most people to run out and spend $4,000 on a new TV to watch their home movies.

This is where the Vizio P series I think will be the no brainer. Good specs and 4K priced at a 1080p level set. This is where it makes total sense to purchase that 4K TV at this time.

I know we also spoke about TV's just giving an overall good picture even if their black levels or contrast might not be all that impressive but I will say, if manufacturer's want to charge high dollars for their high end TV's the measured spec's should at least test better then your average TV's. A contrast ratio of 2,000:1 is not that impressive. If they want to charge $4,000 for a TV shouldn't you at least expect them to give you contrast levels that equal a top end TV?

My projector is a little less in contrast levels then this but it also only cost $750. If they wanted to charge me $4,000 for this projector then they should be giving me at least 4-5x better contrast then what I am seeing at $750. Does it still look good. Of course it does but it most definitley will look better as the contrast levels improve and you can't really argue that.

I think it is more that we should get what we pay for. 4K resolution alone is not worth the price of $4,000.

Last edited by eric3316; 06-15-2014 at 05:51 AM.
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post #1078 of 1424 Old 06-15-2014, 05:55 AM
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The important point of this thread is whatever we should trust the uk shootout or an observation by one person.

Actually the point is neither. You should trust your eyes.





Actually the eyes and ears are not the best instruments to measure or calibrate audio and video.

Measurements are for keeping score and they don't necessary lead to enjoyment. After my Kuro was ISF calibrated I made minor tweaks to my liking. The ears and eyes like what they like regardless of measurements..
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post #1079 of 1424 Old 06-15-2014, 06:09 AM
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I am pretty anti-LCD but I have no doubt that Panasonic can engineer some serious advancements for that tech. My biggest concern with LCD TVs is the choppy movement, and soap opera effect. I watched gravity on a Samsung H9000 curve 4k and the space scenes have horrendous black levels. That TV scores well and it looked nothing like my plasma.

I usually get pissed when online reviewers shoot down new tech, and try to dismiss an advancement. I'm glad the opposite is being done here. I'm sure the AX900 looks fantastic but I don't see them leaping out and making a better TV than the plasma in one year. I can believe that it manages to look and move better than some of the LCD competition.

I'm glad this passion inspiring thread title gives a tribute to the VT/ZT and tries to drum up excitement for the new tech. However, I will not be convinced until I see it myself.

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Actually the point is neither. You should trust your eyes.
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Actually the eyes and ears are not the best instruments to measure audio and video.
We are not talking about calibrating relying solely on our sensory organs. The eyes and ears are what determines what looks and sounds best TO YOU.

In the end, it's the subjective that matters. I don't care if a picture is deemed to be perfectly conformed to the "standards." If it doesn't look good TO ME, I will be adjusting the picture.

Exactly my point.

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