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post #1 of 43 Old 05-26-2014, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Bought a new Samsung UN65H6350 and to my surprise I found out that the panel was not a Samsung Panel but a chinese panel made by AU Optronics. The panel is a different panel technology and thus performs differently from a Samsung Panel. Here is a link about the different types of panels: http://nxsfan.co.uk/mediawiki/index.php/Samsung_Panels. Here is the skinny on the lottery on 65 inch Samsung sets for 2013.Here's what I've learned so far:
65EH6000 - MHXX - AU Optronics A-MVA
65EH6000 - YHXX - AU Optronics A-MVA - 65L in service menu
65FH6001 - MHXX - AU Optronics A-MVA
65F6350 - MSXX - AU Optronics A-MVA
65F6300 - MSXX - AU Optronics A-MVA - 65L in service menu
65F8000 - MDXX -
65F8000 - TDXX - Samsung S-PVA

Here is a review on two Samsung sets, one with a Samsung and one with a Taiwanese panel: http://www.digitalversus.com/samsung-hd-tv-duel-lec630-mva-pva-technology-n15774.html

Since my set is a 65" I can either return it or upgrade to a H8000 for another 1400 dollars. I have calibrated this set to my liking. There is no banding, clouding, light leaking. Blacks are OK but not great. My biggest issues are average contrasts and poor off axis viewing. Tomorrow I am off and I am going to go to BB, HHGreg , Sears and Costco and check all of the 65" to verify this info. I was at Costco last week and checked a 60" 6350 and it had a Sharp panel. Please feel free to chime on your impressions of this panel. I do feel that not illegal in any way, Samsung panel lottery though probably a good decision for their bottom line is unethical. These replacement panels are not apples to apples. They are different technologies with different pixel structures. Samsung states they all adhere to minimum specs but refuse to release those details. I have already phoned Samsung and complained about this. I was told someone would call me on this. That was two weeks ago.tongue.gif
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post #2 of 43 Old 05-26-2014, 02:29 PM
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For what its worth, AUO is a Taiwanese company, not a Chinese company.
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post #3 of 43 Old 05-26-2014, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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My bad but close.
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post #4 of 43 Old 05-27-2014, 10:24 AM
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The actual name of Taiwan is The Chinese Republic.
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post #5 of 43 Old 05-27-2014, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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How bout anyone that wants to discuss their AU panel?
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post #6 of 43 Old 05-27-2014, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

The actual name of Taiwan is The Chinese Republic.
You mean the Republic of China.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theroys88 View Post

How bout anyone that wants to discuss their AU panel?
I have one in a 24" 1920x1080 LCD monitor that's pretty nice. It has a considerably better contrast ration than the IPS and PLS panels found in many other monitors. On the TV side, I don't have any experience with them.
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post #7 of 43 Old 05-27-2014, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

The actual name of Taiwan is The Chinese Republic.
You mean the Republic of China.
Right. ROC, Republic of China.
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post #8 of 43 Old 05-28-2014, 04:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

You mean the Republic of China.
I have one in a 24" 1920x1080 LCD monitor that's pretty nice. It has a considerably better contrast ration than the IPS and PLS panels found in many other monitors. On the TV side, I don't have any experience with them.

Thanks for your input. My set is 65 inches so all flaws are easily noticed. Not a horrible panel by no means. Has no clouding, banding, ghosting or flashlighting, Uniformity is good. Weakness is average contrast and black levels and poor off axis viewing.
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post #9 of 43 Old 05-28-2014, 06:28 AM
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The UNH6350 is a cheap Edge Lit LED TV so expect mediocre performance..

here is the C|NET review
http://www.cnet.com/products/samsung-un55h6350/
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post #10 of 43 Old 05-28-2014, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Not edge lit my friend. The set is back lit.
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post #11 of 43 Old 05-28-2014, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theroys88 
Not edge lit my friend. The set is back lit.

ok. here is an interesting article about direct lit LEDs.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2012/05/what-is-a-direct-lit-led-lcd-tv/index.htm
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post #12 of 43 Old 06-17-2014, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theroys88 View Post
Not edge lit my friend. The set is back lit.
Is the UNxH6350 series edge or direct lit? CNET review says direct, Amazon specs say Edge, the Samsung website says nothing.
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post #13 of 43 Old 06-17-2014, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theroys88 View Post
Bought a new Samsung UN65H6350 and to my surprise I found out that the panel was not a Samsung Panel but a chinese panel made by AU Optronics. The panel is a different panel technology and thus performs differently from a Samsung Panel. Here is a link about the different types of panels: http://nxsfan.co.uk/mediawiki/index.php/Samsung_Panels. Here is the skinny on the lottery on 65 inch Samsung sets for 2013.Here's what I've learned so far:
65EH6000 - MHXX - AU Optronics A-MVA
65EH6000 - YHXX - AU Optronics A-MVA - 65L in service menu
65FH6001 - MHXX - AU Optronics A-MVA
65F6350 - MSXX - AU Optronics A-MVA
65F6300 - MSXX - AU Optronics A-MVA - 65L in service menu
65F8000 - MDXX -
65F8000 - TDXX - Samsung S-PVA

Here is a review on two Samsung sets, one with a Samsung and one with a Taiwanese panel: http://www.digitalversus.com/samsung...gy-n15774.html

Since my set is a 65" I can either return it or upgrade to a H8000 for another 1400 dollars. I have calibrated this set to my liking. There is no banding, clouding, light leaking. Blacks are OK but not great. My biggest issues are average contrasts and poor off axis viewing. Tomorrow I am off and I am going to go to BB, HHGreg , Sears and Costco and check all of the 65" to verify this info. I was at Costco last week and checked a 60" 6350 and it had a Sharp panel. Please feel free to chime on your impressions of this panel. I do feel that not illegal in any way, Samsung panel lottery though probably a good decision for their bottom line is unethical. These replacement panels are not apples to apples. They are different technologies with different pixel structures. Samsung states they all adhere to minimum specs but refuse to release those details. I have already phoned Samsung and complained about this. I was told someone would call me on this. That was two weeks ago.
I have a AUO panel in my F7100. Besides it's off angle viewing, it measures 4,000:1 in contrast. Which is quite good for an Edge lit LCD.

I believe mine is an A-MVA panel.

What is it you are concerned about besides they are using different manufacturers? Obviously the panel meets some level of specification from Samsung.

-SiGGy
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post #14 of 43 Old 06-17-2014, 08:30 AM
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I think it's useless to rush for Samsung panel. If you are looking for good contrast/blacks Sharp is your choice.
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post #15 of 43 Old 06-17-2014, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djc6 View Post
Is the UNxH6350 series edge or direct lit? CNET review says direct, Amazon specs say Edge, the Samsung website says nothing.
It is direct / back-lit. It grew in thickness from the F6300/F6350 for a reason.
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post #16 of 43 Old 06-17-2014, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akarma View Post
I think it's useless to rush for Samsung panel. If you are looking for good contrast/blacks Sharp is your choice.
Yes, everyone should bow at the 1250:1 contrast ratio their new Q+ panels deliver.
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post #17 of 43 Old 06-17-2014, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
I have a AUO panel in my F7100. Besides it's off angle viewing, it measures 4,000:1 in contrast. Which is quite good for an Edge lit LCD.

I believe mine is an A-MVA panel.

What is it you are concerned about besides they are using different manufacturers? Obviously the panel meets some level of specification from Samsung.
You are assuming that. How did you arrive at that cr number? Samsung refuses to release any numbers. Trust me I have asked. My best friend brought over his UN75H6350 and placed next to my UN65H6350 with the AUO panel. We changed the video settings to match and fed both sets the same OTA signals and Blu-Ray movies. No contest. His set's blacks were much deeper.Contrast levels were better. His set handled fast motion better. Off axis viewing was a bit better. I could not believe these two sets were the same model. My problem is that is we are getting different levels of picture quality depending on which panel we have. One thing I love about Chick Filet is that the service and the food is always great. I feel cheated with this inferior set.
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post #18 of 43 Old 06-17-2014, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theroys88 View Post
You are assuming that. How did you arrive at that cr number? Samsung refuses to release any numbers. Trust me I have asked. My best friend brought over his UN75H6350 and placed next to my UN65H6350 with the AUO panel. We changed the video settings to match and fed both sets the same OTA signals and Blu-Ray movies. No contest. His set's blacks were much deeper.Contrast levels were better. His set handled fast motion better. Off axis viewing was a bit better. I could not believe these two sets were the same model. My problem is that is we are getting different levels of picture quality depending on which panel we have. One thing I love about Chick Filet is that the service and the food is always great. I feel cheated with this inferior set.
I measured it myself. It came to approx. 4,300:1. My black level measures .008 fl in movie mode with a checkerboard. Other reviews/members are in same ballpark 4000:1 with the F7100 and same size screen I have (probably same panel). To hit this level I keep backlight at 5.

I don't think settings will translate 1:1. Did you calibrate the black level (brightness) with a disc before you compared? Also you should try and compensate to the lowest backlight setting you can use; it will also help your black level. Of course re-adjust brightness after adjusting backlight.

-SiGGy
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post #19 of 43 Old 06-17-2014, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theroys88 View Post
We changed the video settings to match and fed both sets the same OTA signals and Blu-Ray movies.
That's probably not the correct way to compare them. You need to make sure each one is set correctly and and that may not be with identical settings on each.
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post #20 of 43 Old 06-17-2014, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
I measured it myself. It came to approx. 4,300:1. My black level measures .008 fl in movie mode with a checkerboard. Other reviews/members are in same ballpark 4000:1 with the F7100 and same size screen I have (probably same panel). To hit this level I keep backlight at 5.

I don't think settings will translate 1:1. Did you calibrate the black level (brightness) with a disc before you compared? Also you should try and compensate to the lowest backlight setting you can use; it will also help your black level. Of course re-adjust brightness after adjusting backlight.
I took CNET's settings and then ran my AVIA2 disc. I had to increase the brightness to 54 to see the rotating mark. My backlight is 11. Your contrast levels make sense. I found AUO panels that are in production that buyers can buy and the stated 4000:1. My version number is AH01. Do you think this panel is as good as a S-PVA panel? My version number is AH01. Any help improving this set's performance would be appreciated. I do appreciate you responding. This is my third Samsung set in the last 6 years and the last two had Samsung panels. Thanks again!
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post #21 of 43 Old 06-17-2014, 04:50 PM
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well.think so, I could not believe these two sets were the same model. My problem is that is we are getting different levels of picture quality depending on which panel we have. One thing I love about Chick Filet is that the service and the food is always great.thanks you
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post #22 of 43 Old 06-17-2014, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theroys88 View Post
I took CNET's settings and then ran my AVIA2 disc. I had to increase the brightness to 54 to see the rotating mark. My backlight is 11. Your contrast levels make sense. I found AUO panels that are in production that buyers can buy and the stated 4000:1. My version number is AH01. Do you think this panel is as good as a S-PVA panel? My version number is AH01. Any help improving this set's performance would be appreciated. I do appreciate you responding. This is my third Samsung set in the last 6 years and the last two had Samsung panels. Thanks again!
My panel is also a AH01... amazing blacks for a LCD without FALD and good motion (with latest firmware); Not so good off angle viewing. 30 degrees total; 15 degrees from either side of center.

Backlight of 11 is pretty high for night viewing, at 5 I hit about 35fl on my panel.

Is the "HDMI black level" option grayed out for you? (it should be, but verify) If it's enabled it means you are feeding the TV a RGB signal. You will want to be sure to get it set right.

If your trying to dial-in black as best as possible and hit 709 rec without a meter...

1. Put your TV in movie mode
2. contrast 100.
3. Color space auto
4. turn off dynamic contrast
5. turn off black tone.
6. Set "color tone" to warm2
7. Adjust your brightness until it's "right" using the disc.
8. Then sitting from a distance in a dark room, put up a slide with a lot of dark (black) area on it but also some bright material. A movie with black bars would work if you are certain the bars are actually fully black. Some are not.
9. Start lowering the backlight slowly until you can no longer see the black areas getting any darker while the image is still bright enough on the TV
10. Then try raising it slowly go back and forth. Find the point where it's a good balance. Where the blacks will not get any darker lowering it and raising it one click the black will get brighter.
You should be well below 10!
11. re-adjust your brightness using the disc
12. Turn cinema black low once done adjusting everything
** if you want just a hair of punch on cable/sat/iptv turn dynamic contrast to low
** also reset any white balance you may have adjusted using online settings. They are worthless; white balance needs to be adjusted per TV.

If you find yourself lost. Do everything above, set backlight to 7. Watch for a few *days*... Then try backlight at 5. Give your eyes a few days to adjust to the new settings.

I have no experience with a UN65H6350.
What I'd like to know is what is your gamma stock... can't know that without using a meter on the TV.

Don't forget to check the HDMI settings I mentioned above

-SiGGy

Last edited by SiGGy; 06-17-2014 at 06:49 PM.
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post #23 of 43 Old 06-18-2014, 08:03 AM
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I googled your set last night, and I see all of the posted settings for brightness are around 45. So I'm wondering why you are up in the 50's. You'll have to let me know about the HDMI black level.

My TV is also set at 45. (tiny bit higher on some inputs; but it's adjusted in my AVR)

-SiGGy

Last edited by SiGGy; 06-18-2014 at 08:12 AM.
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post #24 of 43 Old 06-18-2014, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info. I will try your suggestions tonight. What panel version do you have? Also what is your opinion on the AUO panel and how it stacks up to a Samsung panel? Also I raised my brightness because I was seeing a lot of black crush. Thanks again!
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post #25 of 43 Old 06-18-2014, 10:36 AM
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MVA panels naturally have far better contrast and black levels, but far worse viewing angles with gamma shift. I think black levels and contrast are overrated. There's a certain point of diminishing return, which a good IPS can hit. You're eyes will also not notice sincei t adjusts to any brighter objects in the scene. Gamma shift is far more annoying and actually degrades the image.
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post #26 of 43 Old 06-18-2014, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theroys88 View Post
Thanks for the info. I will try your suggestions tonight. What panel version do you have? Also what is your opinion on the AUO panel and how it stacks up to a Samsung panel? Also I raised my brightness because I was seeing a lot of black crush. Thanks again!
Try dialing in black correct and ignore the crush for the moment (this should be around 45 in brightness). You should be able to fix the crush using gamma.

Here's a bit more info... (I'm not sure what your level of expertise is, so I tried to explain it as best I could without just being technical about it)

Gamma can be adjusted with the following.

2 point white balance (not recommended without a meter)
10 point white balance (you can eyeball it; but you should have a meter)
gamma control (i'd leave this at 0, you can experiment with +1 as it will bring out more detail; but be sure to go through all of your settings again if you adjust it)

If you read CNETs review of your TV they use a BT.1886 gamma, this is a variable gamma which helps bring out shadow detail. It's hard to say what all he did to achieve this gamma in terms of settings; but the bulk of it is done in the 10 point white balance; especially values 1-4 (10% to 40%)

What you can try is once you have black dialed in and all of the settings above. Try and guesstimate the BT.1886 from CNETs settings.

Reset the 10pt white balance before you start...

I hope your TV's white balance is not off nearly as far as the sample unit CNET had. It was pretty bad; my F7100 wasn't nearly as bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNET
10p White Balance submenu:
10 Point: On
10%: Red +16, Green +19, Blue +17
20%: Red +11, Green +16, Blue +15
30%: Red +2, Green +5, Blue +5
40%: Red -1, Green 0, Blue 0
50%: Red -1, Green -1, Blue -1
60%: Red -4, Green -5, Blue -4
70%: Red -4, Green -5, Blue -4
80%: Red -8, Green -8, Blue -8
90%: Red +1, Green 0, Blue 0
100%: Red +1, Green 0, Blue 0
Lets focus on 10% to 40% (1-4 in the options).

To make this easier to understand 0% == black (no luminance). 100%== full luminance. For now forget there is 3 controls (red,green,blue) for each percentage. Lets pretend there is only one control per percentage and lets call it brightness.

10% is near black
20% little brighter
30% even brighter

So if you were to adjust the 10% brightness control up, it would make near black details brighter. Adjusting the 20% brightness control would adjust brightness in the video that is near 20% in luminance. And so on...

You can kinda view this as an equalizer for brightness with 10 points you can adjust. The lower percentages being the darker and the higher being the brighter.

But you say there is no "brightness" control though. Well, actually there sorta is. What you want to do is add equal parts of Red, Green and Blue per percentage. So if you wanted to adjust 10% brighter 5 clicks you would do.

10% Red +5, Green +5, Blue +5

So for your "black crush" you would focus on 10% to 40%.

Lets look back at CNET's settings...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnet
10p White Balance submenu:
10 Point: On
10%: Red +16, Green +19, Blue +17
20%: Red +11, Green +16, Blue +15
30%: Red +2, Green +5, Blue +5
40%: Red -1, Green 0, Blue 0
Now lets average the numbers between R,G,B on for each 10% 20% 30% and 40%. They have different values for R,G,B to adjust the white balance, but the if you notice all of the values are raised. So lets just grab the average.

10%: average (17)
20%: average (14)
30%: average (4)
40%: average (0)

So, in a very rudimentary way you can look at this as if the brightness control is up 17 clicks at 10%, 14 clicks at 20%, 4 clicks at 30%

This is why you want to dial black in correctly with the main brightness control, then come back here and tweak "gamma" to fix anything that off. Like shadow detail.

Now normally there is a lot more to explain here as this is also your white balance! But for your needs and since you don't have a meter you can try making these adjustments to attempt fix your black crush.

Do notice you just make equal adjustments per primary color. If you don't make equal R,G,B adjustments you will be adjusting your white balance; you don't want to do this unless you have a meter.

So the final guesstimated BT.1886 gamma without any white balance change is...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crackhead_bt.1886_gamma_method
10p White Balance submenu:
10 Point: On
10%: Red +17, Green +17, Blue +17
20%: Red +14, Green +14, Blue +14
30%: Red +4, Green +4, Blue +4
40%: Red 0, Green 0, Blue 0
Before you jump through all of this, be sure your black level is set correctly and HDMI black option. I would probably reset the input's settings and start over from where I posted at the top of this thread. Then follow up with this.

-SiGGy

Last edited by SiGGy; 06-18-2014 at 12:25 PM.
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post #27 of 43 Old 06-18-2014, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Try dialing in black correct and ignore the crush for the moment (this should be around 45 in brightness). You should be able to fix the crush using gamma.

Here's a bit more info... (I'm not sure what your level of expertise is, so I tried to explain it as best I could without just being technical about it)

Gamma can be adjusted with the following.

2 point white balance (not recommended without a meter)
10 point white balance (you can eyeball it; but you should have a meter)
gamma control (i'd leave this at 0, you can experiment with +1 as it will bring out more detail; but be sure to go through all of your settings again if you adjust it)

If you read CNETs review of your TV they use a BT.1886 gamma, this is a variable gamma which helps bring out shadow detail. It's hard to say what all he did to achieve this gamma in terms of settings; but the bulk of it is done in the 10 point white balance; especially values 1-4 (10% to 40%)

What you can try is once you have black dialed in and all of the settings above. Try and guesstimate the BT.1886 from CNETs settings.

Reset the 10pt white balance before you start...

I hope your TV's white balance is not off nearly as far as the sample unit CNET had. It was pretty bad; my F7100 wasn't nearly as bad.



Lets focus on 10% to 40% (1-4 in the options).

To make this easier to understand 0% == black (no luminance). 100%== full luminance. For now forget there is 3 controls (red,green,blue) for each percentage. Lets pretend there is only one control per percentage and lets call it brightness.

10% is near black
20% little brighter
30% even brighter

So if you were to adjust the 10% brightness control up, it would make near black details brighter. Adjusting the 20% brightness control would adjust brightness in the video that is near 20% in luminance. And so on...

You can kinda view this as an equalizer for brightness with 10 points you can adjust. The lower percentages being the darker and the higher being the brighter.

But you say there is no "brightness" control though. Well, actually there sorta is. What you want to do is add equal parts of Red, Green and Blue per percentage. So if you wanted to adjust 10% brighter 5 clicks you would do.

10% Red +5, Green +5, Blue +5

So for your "black crush" you would focus on 10% to 40%.

Lets look back at CNET's settings...



Now lets average the numbers between R,G,B on for each 10% 20% 30% and 40%. They have different values for R,G,B to adjust the white balance, but the if you notice all of the values are raised. So lets just grab the average.

10%: average (17)
20%: average (14)
30%: average (4)
40%: average (0)

So, in a very rudimentary way you can look at this as if the brightness control is up 17 clicks at 10%, 14 clicks at 20%, 4 clicks at 30%

This is why you want to dial black in correctly with the main brightness control, then come back here and tweak "gamma" to fix anything that off. Like shadow detail.

Now normally there is a lot more to explain here as this is also your white balance! But for your needs and since you don't have a meter you can try making these adjustments to attempt fix your black crush.

Do notice you just make equal adjustments per primary color. If you don't make equal R,G,B adjustments you will be adjusting your white balance; you don't want to do this unless you have a meter.

So the final guesstimated BT.1886 gamma without any white balance change is...



Before you jump through all of this, be sure your black level is set correctly and HDMI black option. I would probably reset the input's settings and start over from where I posted at the top of this thread. Then follow up with this.
WOW! You must be a trained calibrator. Impressive knowledge base I may say. Will try to digest this information. I am feeling better about this panel after reading your posts. My energy should be focused toward getting the most out of this panel. Thanks again for the info!
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post #28 of 43 Old 06-25-2014, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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After changing my search criteria, I have found my panel in my UN65H6350. Here is the link:http://www.panelook.com/T650HVN05.4_...iew_21015.html

Also here is the Samsung panel that goes in the UN55H6350:
http://www.panelook.com/LTA550HJ04_S...iew_13011.html

Certainly a difference in CR and brightness levels. No info on black levels. Everything else looks comparable. I am sure the black levels are better on the Samsung panel. This verifies what I was seeing at BB on the 55 inch set. That set just looked better then the 65" set. I could see better contrast levels and better blacks. This is why Samsung will never release contrast levels, brightness levels, black levels and such since these replacement panels are not equal in the spec department. Again we must make noise to Samsung and the public till this practice ends or the outsourced panels match Samsung levels.
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post #29 of 43 Old 06-25-2014, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Happened to be at Wally World and saw a 6000 series on the endcap for 698. Not a 6350 but a lower model. No info on the model but looked to be at least 40 inches. Looked god awful compared to the rest of the displays. Looked on the back and version code was AH01. This just keep getting better and better.
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post #30 of 43 Old 06-25-2014, 02:00 PM
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AUO currently makes the best performing panels as far as contrast and black levels go. Look at the current crop of Sony tv's. They have achieved the deepest blacks and highest contrast ratios than any previous non-FALD sets, and they are using AUO panels. The trade off is terrible viewing angles. You can't have it all. Brightness, contrast/black level, and viewing angles. Pick two.
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