Vizio Demo: M Series vs. Samsung H7150 - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 47Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 10:53 AM
Advanced Member
 
SiGGy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Posts: 724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The letterbox bars on all 2014 Vizios are a revelation for anyone who watches 2.40:1 content on older Vizio M, and most other edgelit TVs... the backlight just shuts off and they are deep black as a result. It's impossible for an edgelit TV to imitate that effect.
?

Samsung has had this feature on their edge lit for a couple of years now it's called "Cinema Black". Before that it was under another name. It turns off the LEDs in the areas where the bars are; they go totally black.

http://skp.samsungcsportal.com/integ...=in&seq=871601

I guess this wasn't turned on for the event. I do have to agree with a previous poster unless both TVs are calibrated/adjusted the best they can be this was nothing more than a Visio pep rally. But understandably so
gamermwm likes this.

-SiGGy

Last edited by SiGGy; 06-13-2014 at 10:59 AM.
SiGGy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 10:58 AM
Member
 
cjpk248's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtn5000 View Post
They do not use the same panel. The 60" is a B3 (10-bit Sharp) and the 55" is a B2 (8-bit AUO)
So does that mean the 49" is the same supplier as the 55" since they're both B2? If that's the case I may lean more towards the 60" now. I was originally thinking the tighter zones of the 49" may be slightly better, but if the 60" is a better, different panel, I'll take the 18% increase in zone size.
cjpk248 is offline  
post #33 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:04 AM
Blu-ray Reviewer
 
Ralph Potts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Middletown NY
Posts: 9,085
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 463
Greetings,

Nice article Mark, thanks!


Regards,
tenthplanet likes this.

Ralph C. Potts
Blu-ray Reviews
AVS Forum
My Home Theater
My DVD/HD DVD/Blu-ray Collection
Ralph Potts is offline  
post #34 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Writer @ AVS
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,557
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1035 Post(s)
Liked: 2183
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
?

Samsung has had this feature on their edge lit for a couple of years now it's called "Cinema Black". Before that it was under another name. It turns off the LEDs in the areas where the bars are; they go totally black.

http://skp.samsungcsportal.com/integ...=in&seq=871601

I guess this wasn't turned on for the event. I do have to agree with a previous poster unless both TVs are calibrated/adjusted the best they can be this was nothing more than a Visio pep rally. But understandably so
Cinema Black as implemented on edgelit sets negatively impacts image quality, that's a well-known side-effect. It is also not as precise as backlit dimming, where the zones are well-defined compared to edgelit.

I go into these things knowing that the manufacturer who sponsors it seeks an advantage. I actually encourage you not to take my word on anything, go out and experience this stuff for yourself... it's the only way to really know. I'm confident in my own good judgement.
blau808 likes this.

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
imagic is online now  
post #35 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:15 AM
Senior Member
 
rtn5000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 213
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjpk248 View Post
So does that mean the 49" is the same supplier as the 55" since they're both B2? If that's the case I may lean more towards the 60" now. I was originally thinking the tighter zones of the 49" may be slightly better, but if the 60" is a better, different panel, I'll take the 18% increase in zone size.
If I remember correctly the 49, 55 and 65 are all 8 bit panels with 400 nit brightness from AUO (B2).

I wouldn't say the 60 is better because of the 10-bit panel since nothing takes advantage of the added colors. We also believe the B3s are all Sharp panels. Last years Sharp panels were outperformed by the AUO panels by a bit from what I recall reading about them.
rtn5000 is offline  
post #36 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:21 AM
Member
 
cjpk248's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtn5000 View Post
If I remember correctly the 49, 55 and 65 are all 8 bit panels with 400 nit brightness from AUO (B2).

I wouldn't say the 60 is better because of the 10-bit panel since nothing takes advantage of the added colors. We also believe the B3s are all Sharp panels. Last years Sharp panels were outperformed by the AUO panels by a bit from what I recall reading about them.
Really? So maybe the 49" is the way to go. I should know this, but even a blu-ray run through Oppo uses only 8 bit? I would think a 10 bit panel would be more expensive to produce and cut their margin so what's the rationale?
cjpk248 is offline  
post #37 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:27 AM
Senior Member
 
rtn5000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 213
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjpk248 View Post
Really? So maybe the 49" is the way to go. I should know this, but even a blu-ray run through Oppo uses only 8 bit? I would think a 10 bit panel would be more expensive to produce and cut their margin so what's the rationale?
I'm personally leaning towards the 65 M. But I reserve final judgment until I see them all in person.

I believe the current Blu-Ray spec is only 8 bit. All cable and OTA wouldn't take advantage of 10-bit either.

I have no idea why they would use a 10-bit panel. Unless their provider gave them a good deal or said this is the only option.
rtn5000 is offline  
post #38 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:29 AM
Advanced Member
 
SiGGy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Posts: 724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Cinema Black as implemented on edgelit sets negatively impacts image quality, that's a well-known side-effect. It is also not as precise as backlit dimming, where the zones are well-defined compared to edgelit.

I go into these things knowing that the manufacturer who sponsors it seeks an advantage. I actually encourage you not to take my word on anything, go out and experience this stuff for yourself... it's the only way to really know. I'm confident in my own good judgement.
I will, but I wouldn't use a setup like this to write an post/article myself.

I was correcting your statement that edge lit can not do what full array does with cinemascope bars as this is untrue. When in fact they can perform the same light tick.

I have not seen any ill effects from turning the feature on and off in any of my calibration readings. The feature only turns off the LEDs where there is no data (black) same as FALD, just in this case it doesn't have the same resolution. I have not seen it effect any other video parameter abruptly.

Could you reference where it is said to impact image quality? Or elaborate?

-SiGGy
SiGGy is offline  
post #39 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:30 AM
Member
 
cjpk248's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtn5000 View Post
I'm personally leaning towards the 65 M. But I reserve final judgment until I see them all in person.

I believe the current Blu-Ray spec is only 8 bit. All cable and OTA wouldn't take advantage of 10-bit either.

I have no idea why they would use a 10-bit panel. Unless their provider gave them a good deal or said this is the only option.
10-4. Thanks for the good info.
cjpk248 is offline  
post #40 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:31 AM
Member
 
cranster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Per Mark's other posts, Vizio would not say anything on the record about either the P-series or Reference series. However, the Reference series was still on the model roadmap Vizio's showed as a 2014 model.
This is enough positive news to hold off and wait and see the p series, and hopefully the r series... (price?!?!) before pulling the trigger on any mid season sets.
cranster is offline  
post #41 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Writer @ AVS
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,557
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1035 Post(s)
Liked: 2183
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
I will, but I wouldn't use a setup like this to write an post/article myself.

I was correcting your statement that edge lit can not do what full array does with cinemascope bars as this is untrue. When in fact they can perform the same light tick.

I have not seen any ill effects from turning the feature on and off in any of my calibration readings. The feature only turns off the LEDs where there is no data (black) same as FALD, just in this case it doesn't have the same resolution. I have not seen it effect any other video parameter abruptly.

Could you reference where it is said to impact image quality? Or elaborate?
An edgelit set can't dim a zone with the same precision as a backlit set.

Excerpts from HDTVtest, regarding the Samsung UE55F8000:

"The use of the phrase “dimming” in the context of an LED LCD conjures up images of local dimming LED backlight arrays. The UE55F8000 is an edge-lit LED LCD, meaning that providing actual dimming of localised areas of the picture is not possible – at least not with any huge deal of precision."

"The UE-55F8000′s LED edge-lights appear to be mounted to the left and right of the panel. These two strips of LEDs, together with a light guide plate, illuminate the entire panel. Since the LEDs are mounted vertically, an approximate local dimming effect can still be provided over rows (groups of lines) on the panel. This doesn’t sound useful at first, but Samsung provides a feature called [Cinema Black] which means that the LEDs responsible for illuminating the areas of the LCD which show letterbox bars at the top and bottom of 2.35:1 scope ratio movies (that’s almost everything coming out of Hollywood) can be dimmed."

"In the scene we chose, Off and Low gave the same result, as did Medium and High. This did have the intended effect of dimming the letterbox bars, but during motion, it also caused the light output from the entire screen (not just the letterbox bars) to increase and decrease, occasionally “popping” after a scene change. We tested the feature with tests specifically designed to reveal such video processing, and found that the Medium and High settings have some dynamic gamma behaviour included. In our view, that’s a more noticeable characteristic than the letterbox bars not appearing jet-black. As a result, we stayed with “Low”."
- HDTVtest.co.uk

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com

Last edited by imagic; 06-13-2014 at 11:46 AM.
imagic is online now  
post #42 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:44 AM
Member
 
cjpk248's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtn5000 View Post
I'm personally leaning towards the 65 M. But I reserve final judgment until I see them all in person.

I believe the current Blu-Ray spec is only 8 bit. All cable and OTA wouldn't take advantage of 10-bit either.

I have no idea why they would use a 10-bit panel. Unless their provider gave them a good deal or said this is the only option.
I will say that I saw the 42" in BB and the corners of the set were terribly darkened. I know this is the "lower tier" of M's, but I was shocked at how noticeable it was. Maybe it was a bad set but they had just put it up. And by noticeable I mean you didn't have to look at another set to see the darkness, it was distracting even for a non-videophile type.
cjpk248 is offline  
post #43 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:48 AM
Advanced Member
 
SiGGy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Posts: 724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
No edgelit set can turn off a zone with the same precision as a backlit set.

Excerpts from HDTVtest, regarding the Samsung UE55F8000:

"The use of the phrase “dimming” in the context of an LED LCD conjures up images of local dimming LED backlight arrays. The UE55F8000 is an edge-lit LED LCD, meaning that providing actual dimming of localised areas of the picture is not possible – at least not with any huge deal of precision."

"The UE-55F8000′s LED edge-lights appear to be mounted to the left and right of the panel. These two strips of LEDs, together with a light guide plate, illuminate the entire panel. Since the LEDs are mounted vertically, an approximate local dimming effect can still be provided over rows (groups of lines) on the panel. This doesn’t sound useful at first, but Samsung provides a feature called [Cinema Black] which means that the LEDs responsible for illuminating the areas of the LCD which show letterbox bars at the top and bottom of 2.35:1 scope ratio movies (that’s almost everything coming out of Hollywood) can be dimmed."

"In the scene we chose, Off and Low gave the same result, as did Medium and High. This did have the intended effect of dimming the letterbox bars, but during motion, it also caused the light output from the entire screen (not just the letterbox bars) to increase and decrease, occasionally “popping” after a scene change. We tested the feature with tests specifically designed to reveal such video processing, and found that the Medium and High settings have some dynamic gamma behaviour included. In our view, that’s a more noticeable characteristic than the letterbox bars not appearing jet-black. As a result, we stayed with “Low”."
- HDTVtest.co.uk
Thanks!

Yes, the US version performs differently than the UK. I have read that article as well; prior the UK version only had "On/Off" as an option as well while we had low,mid,high. So there's a difference in performance/software between regions with the feature. No clue why... but there is.

Do you have any references that applies to the US version of the TV?

I haven't seen any brightness pops with the US version. I'll re-test gamma but last time I didn't see it. I tried with 2%, %10, 20% windows, APL and FULL screen. Variance was negligible.

-SiGGy

Last edited by SiGGy; 06-13-2014 at 11:50 AM.
SiGGy is offline  
post #44 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:49 AM
Senior Member
 
emmonsh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: west branch,mi.
Posts: 241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 13
first of all if its a vizio booth everything is set to make the vizio look like gold and Samsung look like crap. I have seen the m,s and like every other vizio I wouldn't give you a hundred dollars for them. They dont know how to do fald. The ones I seen were worse than almost every edge lit except the edge lit vizios. also still the same crap internals to them. sorry
mattskr and gamermwm like this.
emmonsh is offline  
post #45 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Writer @ AVS
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,557
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1035 Post(s)
Liked: 2183
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
thanks.

Yes, the US version performs differently than the UK. I have read that article as well; prior the UK version only had "On/Off" as an option as well. So there's a different in performance/software between regions with the feature.

Do you have any references that applies to the US version of the TV?

I haven't seen any brightness pops with the US version. I'll re-test gamma but last time I didn't see it. I tried with 2%, %10, 20% windows, APL and FULL screen. Variance was negligible.
Right on. I have seen Samsung's latest edgelit models and at the high end the image quality/uniformity is excellent. The H7150 at the demo was not competitive with the Vizio M in that regard, but I can also understand how if Samsung found a way to improve the processing with its approach, it could work.

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
imagic is online now  
post #46 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:52 AM
Senior Member
 
Hisma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 262 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmonsh View Post
first of all if its a vizio booth everything is set to make the vizio look like gold and Samsung look like crap. I have seen the m,s and like every other vizio I wouldn't give you a hundred dollars for them. They dont know how to do fald. The ones I seen were worse than almost every edge lit except the edge lit vizios. also still the same crap internals to them. sorry
what a bunch of uninformed nonsense. lol. have you read a single professional review of the 2014 e/m series?
venus933 likes this.
Hisma is online now  
post #47 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Writer @ AVS
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,557
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1035 Post(s)
Liked: 2183
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmonsh View Post
first of all if its a vizio booth everything is set to make the vizio look like gold and Samsung look like crap. I have seen the m,s and like every other vizio I wouldn't give you a hundred dollars for them. They dont know how to do fald. The ones I seen were worse than almost every edge lit except the edge lit vizios. also still the same crap internals to them. sorry
Whoa, that's really something. What else did you see when you were at CES? Can you name the location of the Vizio booth at CES? If you do, I'll believe this is your honest opinion.

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
imagic is online now  
post #48 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:57 AM
Senior Member
 
rtn5000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 213
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjpk248 View Post
I will say that I saw the 42" in BB and the corners of the set were terribly darkened. I know this is the "lower tier" of M's, but I was shocked at how noticeable it was. Maybe it was a bad set but they had just put it up. And by noticeable I mean you didn't have to look at another set to see the darkness, it was distracting even for a non-videophile type.
Yeah this was mentioned by a few people on the official 2014 Vizio M thread. I don't want to derail this thread anymore but along with those that saw dark corners many others reported no dark corners at all. Some are thinking it's either a defect or the way some or these units are being shipped.
rtn5000 is offline  
post #49 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 11:58 AM
Advanced Member
 
SiGGy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Posts: 724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Right on. I have seen Samsung's latest edgelit models and at the high end the image quality/uniformity is excellent. The H7150 at the demo was not competitive with the Vizio M in that regard, but I can also understand how if Samsung found a way to improve the processing with its approach, it could work.
I have been talking about 2014 Visio's FALD to a lot of folks this year; so don't let my technical argumentative side sway you. I am very excited about the possibilities these TV(s) bring. I wanted a Sharp Elite last year but no way I was going to spend what they wanted for the TV. I was replacing a VT50 so, I wanted something with decent blacks. Oddly the "in-between" TV F7100 we snagged from costco to buy time as I figure out what I want hits .008fl with a checkerboard; which is pretty amazing IMO. As dark as my D8000 plasma was.

-SiGGy
SiGGy is offline  
post #50 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 12:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
GregLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waimanalo HI
Posts: 3,237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Without being able to calibrate the sets, I don't see how you can reach any meaningful conclusion about how the black levels compare. Of course, you can lower black level as much as you like by turning down the Brightness control, but then there's a question whether other settings can help recover shadow detail (Gamma, e.g.). I've just gone through this with a Samsung HU8550, which now has very good black level when viewed straight on, but it certainly didn't out of the box.

Greg Lee
GregLee is online now  
post #51 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 12:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 9,897
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 487 Post(s)
Liked: 523
Quote:
Originally Posted by cranster View Post
This is enough positive news to hold off and wait and see the p series, and hopefully the r series... (price?!?!) before pulling the trigger on any mid season sets.
The manufacturer being completely unwilling to make any sort of public statement about their upcoming product is positive news?
Stereodude is offline  
post #52 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 12:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
SiGGy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Posts: 724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Without being able to calibrate the sets, I don't see how you can reach any meaningful conclusion about how the black levels compare. Of course, you can lower black level as much as you like by turning down the Brightness control, but then there's a question whether other settings can help recover shadow detail (Gamma, e.g.). I've just gone through this with a Samsung HU8550, which now has very good black level when viewed straight on, but it certainly didn't out of the box.

On an LCD set with no dimming it's really 2 controls for black level. The brightness control and the backlight level. With the brightness control dialed in for near black you can raise and lower the black level with the backlight control. It then becomes a compromise of screen brightness vs black level.

yes, then you go juggling for good gamma. I use a BT.1886 gamma on my F7100 it does help bring out some shadow detail.

-SiGGy

Last edited by SiGGy; 06-13-2014 at 12:20 PM.
SiGGy is offline  
post #53 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Writer @ AVS
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,557
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1035 Post(s)
Liked: 2183
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Without being able to calibrate the sets, I don't see how you can reach any meaningful conclusion about how the black levels compare. Of course, you can lower black level as much as you like by turning down the Brightness control, but then there's a question whether other settings can help recover shadow detail (Gamma, e.g.). I've just gone through this with a Samsung HU8550, which now has very good black level when viewed straight on, but it certainly didn't out of the box.
It's just a guestimate. The TVs were not that far off from each other. I took my photos into Photoshop and averaged out the luminance of both screens to make sure there was no major discrepancy. Also, I've performed enough calibrations to have a decent feel for this stuff.


In this image, I compared the average luminance between the two screens by blurring the photo and removing saturation. The gray blobs reveal that they are quite close to each other in terms of overall luminance, indicating that the two TVs were in each other's ballpark—both of them being in movie mode. I saw all the settings on both TVs, nothing fishy as far as I could tell.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bright.jpg (76.1 KB, 749 views)

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com

Last edited by imagic; 06-13-2014 at 12:19 PM.
imagic is online now  
post #54 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 02:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
westa6969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: From Michigan now Retired to Naples, FL
Posts: 6,865
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtn5000 View Post
I'm personally leaning towards the 65 M. But I reserve final judgment until I see them all in person.

I believe the current Blu-Ray spec is only 8 bit. All cable and OTA wouldn't take advantage of 10-bit either.

I have no idea why they would use a 10-bit panel. Unless their provider gave them a good deal or said this is the only option.
It's well known that a ten bit panel quadruples shades/steps of gray and from millions of colors to billions. Most high end Sony LCD's for about 6-7 years used ten bit panels - and again I see members confusing a Ten Bit Panel with it's bit processing which are not the same thing. When I've compared them shadow detail and deeper richer colors were on the ten bit panels. Someone recently identified the list of Sony ten bit panels on the 900/950B threads.

This gets debated over and over but I'd choose ten bit hands down.

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
westa6969 is offline  
post #55 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 02:42 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
videobruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 14,976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 121
imagic;
I'm not clear on what I'm looking at. If I understand what you described, the top half of that image is from the image directly below (two sets, side by side) that was edited in PhotoShop?? The bright areas represent the highlights of the image?

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
The Internet is no place for streaming video.
videobruce is offline  
post #56 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 02:53 PM
Senior Member
 
rtn5000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 213
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post
It's well known that a ten bit panel quadruples shades/steps of gray and from millions of colors to billions. Most high end Sony LCD's for about 6-7 years used ten bit panels - and again I see members confusing a Ten Bit Panel with it's bit processing which are not the same thing. When I've compared them shadow detail and deeper richer colors were on the ten bit panels. Someone recently identified the list of Sony ten bit panels on the 900/950B threads.

This gets debated over and over but I'd choose ten bit hands down.
If the content that's available does not take advantage of a 10-bit panel..what's the point?
rtn5000 is offline  
post #57 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Writer @ AVS
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,557
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1035 Post(s)
Liked: 2183
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
imagic;
I'm not clear on what I'm looking at. If I understand what you described, the top half of that image is from the image directly below (two sets, side by side) that was edited in PhotoShop?? The bright areas represent the highlights of the image?
The gray blob roght above each inage represents the averaged luminance. If the two look really similar, it means the overall brightness was also similar.
videobruce likes this.

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
imagic is online now  
post #58 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 04:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,603
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 418 Post(s)
Liked: 743
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hisma View Post
This is simply an untrue statement.

Are you saying that all FALD sets have superior PQ to all edge-lit sets, simply because FALD is inherently better?

If that's the case, then the < $1000 vizio E series should outmatch the $5000 sony x900B or $4000 samsung HU9000 & Panasonic AX800U, which are all edge-lit sets. See any of those sets with your own eyes, and tell me if you still believe that statement.
I think what he meant(and what I would agree with) is that it's not possible for an edgelit LED to look as good as a well designed and made FALD LED.


I'm sure there's some overlap, where a super crappy FALD set will look worse than the best edgelit LED, but generally speaking FALD is better than edgelit. and if you compare similar quality(best vs best) the FALD units are always going to be better.


say we use the sharp elite as our reference for FALD. I would say that no edgelit LED ever made will be as good.


personally, I haven't enjoyed an edgelit led ever. when I buy lcd, I opt for CCFL backlit or FALD if available(so far it hasn't been when I was in the market)
fierce_gt is online now  
post #59 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 04:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
EscapeVelocity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 5,641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Any word on the 49" and 50" M series dates on retailer shelves yet?

Vizio VP322 Plasma / Vizio GV42LF LCD / Denon 2200 Silicon Image DVD / Panasonic S97 Faroudja Genesis DVD / Oppo 970HD Mediatek DVD / Oppo 983H Anchor Bay DVD / Panasonic LX-600 Laserdisc / Aiwa MX100 Multi-region VCR / JVC S7600 S-VHS / PS2 / Sega Genesis / Nintendo SNES / Roku 2 XS & HD-XR / Realistic STA-90 Reciever / Realistic Minimus 7 / Antennacraft G1483 Hoverman / Belden 7915A RG6 / Channel Master 7777 Titan 2 UHF/VHF / Panasonic AX-200u / Optoma Graywolf 92" / Draper Luma 92"
EscapeVelocity is offline  
post #60 of 166 Old 06-13-2014, 05:21 PM
Senior Member
 
Hisma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 262 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I think what he meant(and what I would agree with) is that it's not possible for an edgelit LED to look as good as a well designed and made FALD LED.


I'm sure there's some overlap, where a super crappy FALD set will look worse than the best edgelit LED, but generally speaking FALD is better than edgelit. and if you compare similar quality(best vs best) the FALD units are always going to be better.


say we use the sharp elite as our reference for FALD. I would say that no edgelit LED ever made will be as good.


personally, I haven't enjoyed an edgelit led ever. when I buy lcd, I opt for CCFL backlit or FALD if available(so far it hasn't been when I was in the market)
Totally agree.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
Hisma is online now  
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

Tags
frontpage

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off