Vizio Demo: M Series vs. Samsung H7150 - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 146 Old 06-13-2014, 07:35 PM
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Both sets were viewed in cinema mode. The Vizio is a FALD set which I'm sure was the being used in the demonstration. Samsung's movie mode disables the dimming feature of the set on the 7150. I realize it's not "true" dimming as a full array set, but the blacks are much deeper on my 7100 when using standard mode (which engages micro dimming) instead of movie in combination with cinema black. The dimming on my Samsung also removes any clouding or flashlighting. I realize I'm biased because I own a Samsung, but you're basically comparing a TV with FALD to a set with all dimming capabilities disabled then pointing out how bad the black levels are. Also, I find it odd the motion is regarded as that good when cnets review basically said the motion capabilities of the M series are quite lacking short of engaging SOE, especially compared to the F8000 they had on hand. I realize the 7150 is not the same league as the 8000,but it's just really looking like that was a very biased demo.
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post #62 of 146 Old 06-13-2014, 07:45 PM
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I had a f8000, dead pixels so I had to return it. So I got the best flat panel by samsung this year due to me not liking curves (the 8550). The 8550 has no cinema black (only the curved models do) so the letterboxes are washed out.

I think I'm going to a E or M series now. If not, then I'm done and getting a plasma and done with TV choosing. Its so annoying.


I have a question, are you saying micro dimming engages on Standard mode on the 7000 series? When I had the f8000 you had Smart LED and Cinema Black for the dimming. That was the best -- and if my HU8550 is worse than the 7000 series with its Smart LED dimming and its "UHD Dimming" than the Vizio E/M series is worse. But if the 8550 is better in dimming, which it obviously has to be, the E/M just overcomes it.

Also if they just put Cinema Black on the 8550, their best flat panel it would have been amazing. Samsung is just pushing the curve. Forget it. I use my TV to entertain and playing Mario Kart 8 split screen on a curved TV would look dumb. I say Samsung flops this year

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post #63 of 146 Old 06-13-2014, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by konigsberg7 View Post
I


I have a question, are you saying micro dimming engages on Standard mode on the 7000 series? When I had the f8000 you had Smart LED and Cinema Black for the dimming. That was the best -- and if my HU8550 is worse than the 7000 series with its Smart LED dimming and its "UHD Dimming" than the Vizio E/M series is worse. But if the 8550 is better in dimming, which it obviously has to be, the E/M just overcomes it.


Also if they just put Cinema Black on the 8550, their best flat panel it would have been amazing. Samsung is just pushing the curve. Forget it. I use my TV to entertain and playing Mario Kart 8 split screen on a curved TV would look dumb. I say Samsung flops this year
I have the F7100 and it uses a different version of local dimming than the F8000 from what I understand. It's software based in simple terms if memory serves me right. In cinema mode, there is no dimming. It's off. All the other modes have dimming engaged by default. You can't turn it on or off. You have the option of using cinema black on all modes, but there is no smart led. I use standard for bright room and it's pretty darn black. I'm not doubting vizios bang for the buck. But I've been following both the E and M threads and it seems like the quality control, remote, implementation of apps and software updates, motion handling, etc all still scream budget TV. If they fixed those things, I would consider buying one.
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post #64 of 146 Old 06-13-2014, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by konigsberg7 View Post
The 8550 has no cinema black (only the curved models do) so the letterboxes are washed out.
The borders around letterboxed 480i input on my 8550 are completely black. There is no washing out.

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post #65 of 146 Old 06-13-2014, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post
I have the F7100 and it uses a different version of local dimming than the F8000 from what I understand. It's software based in simple terms if memory serves me right. In cinema mode, there is no dimming. It's off. All the other modes have dimming engaged by default. You can't turn it on or off. You have the option of using cinema black on all modes, but there is no smart led. I use standard for bright room and it's pretty darn black. I'm not doubting vizios bang for the buck. But I've been following both the E and M threads and it seems like the quality control, remote, implementation of apps and software updates, motion handling, etc all still scream budget TV. If they fixed those things, I would consider buying one.
I hate to rain on your parade but the Vizio M series is a much better TV than the Samsung 7 series in terms of PQ IMO. You're going to find that about every professional review is going to back up Mark's impressions. Heck, even last year's M series outperformed the F7100 per testing by cnet. IMO Vizio's error was not comparing the M series to the Samsung UNH8000 as that TV would have been a much fairer comparison. But I guess they wanted to pick on a TV that's clearly inferior but in Vizio's defense the H7150 does cost quite a bit more.

As for motion the demonstrations aligned perfectly with my experiences when comparing the D7000 and M501d-A2R when I had both sets. No I still don't own the 2013 M series as I returned 3 of them (one at a time) due to light bleed issues especially with blooming. I also sold the D7000 as I could no longer take the clouding and flashing lighting issues. Hence I don't have any TV for my bedroom currently.

You're darn right the F7100 has a different version of dimming, it called framed (also known as global) dimming which is video based and it's pretty much worthless as dimming is done to the entire screen from frame to frame. It does nothing to improve contrast.

Based upon a Consumer Reports' survey on problems encountered by TV owners, Panasonic was at the top and Samsung was near the bottom with Vizio somewhere in between. Keep in mind I think Samsung's results were skewed a bit since they're the first to try out new features but it's not like Samsung is known as a paragon of quality control.

The F7100 has a clear advantage over the M series with video processing. Samsung is simply the best in that regard. It's one of the reasons I'll be holding out for the P series. However that advantage become less meaningful for those who watch little SD content.

After I returned my M series television I thought I was done with Vizio but I freely admit I've become a big fan of theirs ever since the 2014 CES as I was highly impressed with their specs and the early reviews of the 2014 E and M series have pretty much backed the hype. Hey, be sure to check out cnet's review of the H7150 if they review it this year. I'm sure to be entertained as you rationalize how Vizio screams budget TV in comparison.

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post #66 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 04:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post
Both sets were viewed in cinema mode. The Vizio is a FALD set which I'm sure was the being used in the demonstration. Samsung's movie mode disables the dimming feature of the set on the 7150. I realize it's not "true" dimming as a full array set, but the blacks are much deeper on my 7100 when using standard mode (which engages micro dimming) instead of movie in combination with cinema black. The dimming on my Samsung also removes any clouding or flashlighting. I realize I'm biased because I own a Samsung, but you're basically comparing a TV with FALD to a set with all dimming capabilities disabled then pointing out how bad the black levels are. Also, I find it odd the motion is regarded as that good when cnets review basically said the motion capabilities of the M series are quite lacking short of engaging SOE, especially compared to the F8000 they had on hand. I realize the 7150 is not the same league as the 8000,but it's just really looking like that was a very biased demo.
I did not measure motion resolution, but it was visibly superior on the Vizio M vs. the 7150 when all settings were turned off. When motion interpolation was turned on, the Vizio outperformed the Samsung H7150 by an even more significant margin.

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post #67 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 06:34 AM
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I hate to rain on your parade but the Vizio M series is a much better TV than the Samsung 7 series in terms of PQ IMO. You're going to find that about every professional review is going to back up Mark's impressions. Heck, even last year's M series outperformed the F7100 per testing by cnet. IMO Vizio's error was not comparing the M series to the Samsung UNH8000 as that TV would have been a much fairer comparison. But I guess they wanted to pick on a TV that's clearly inferior but in Vizio's defense the H7150 does cost quite a bit more.

As for motion the demonstrations aligned perfectly with my experiences when comparing the D7000 and M501d-A2R when I had both sets. No I still don't own the 2013 M series as I returned 3 of them (one at a time) due to light bleed issues especially with blooming. I also sold the D7000 as I could no longer take the clouding and flashing lighting issues. Hence I don't have any TV for my bedroom currently.

You're darn right the F7100 has a different version of dimming, it called framed (also known as global) dimming which is video based and it's pretty much worthless as dimming is done to the entire screen from frame to frame. It does nothing to improve contrast.

Based upon a Consumer Reports' survey on problems encountered by TV owners, Panasonic was at the top and Samsung was near the bottom with Vizio somewhere in between. Keep in mind I think Samsung's results were skewed a bit since they're the first to try out new features but it's not like Samsung is known as a paragon of quality control.

The F7100 has a clear advantage over the M series with video processing. Samsung is simply the best in that regard. It's one of the reasons I'll be holding out for the P series. However that advantage become less meaningful for those who watch little SD content.

After I returned my M series television I thought I was done with Vizio but I freely admit I've become a big fan of theirs ever since the 2014 CES as I was highly impressed with their specs and the early reviews of the 2014 E and M series have pretty much backed the hype. Hey, be sure to check out cnet's review of the H7150 if they review it this year. I'm sure to be entertained as you rationalize how Vizio screams budget TV in comparison.
In response:

At least we agree on motion handling.

I'm well aware of cnet's review on the F7100 and the rating they gave it. I've read most reviews they've done in the past few years on tvs. The point that I was trying to make was that it didn't look like exactly an "apples to apples" type comparison between two brands. You have a FALD set being compared to a set with it's version of dimming (regardless of whether its good implementation or not) disabled. I know some people have issues with cinema black, but I like it on mine. It makes the letterbox bars very black and on the low to med setting doesn't affect the rest of the picture. I know the black levels of the vizio set are much better than the Samsung. I'm not arguing that and vizio gives a lot of bang for the buck. And no, I won't be reading the review of the F7150 and rationalizing anything. I've spent my 2K last fall on the F7100 as it met my needs more than any other set I looked at within my price range. I was lucky and got a good one with no flashlighting or bleeding and I've been pretty happy with it so far. I can't justify buying a new tv every year (neither can most forum members I would assume, as much as we would like to) so for now I'm content.


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post #68 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 06:57 AM
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The point that I was trying to make was that it didn't look like exactly an "apples to apples" type comparison between two brands. You have a FALD set being compared to a set with it's version of dimming (regardless of whether its good implementation or not) disabled.
I think you make a very good point. Local dimming is LCD-LED's best shot at approximating the great black levels of plasma. In comparing black levels of LCD-LED and plasma sets, it makes no sense at all to turn off local dimming, because then any progress LCD-LED has made becomes unobservable.
In setting up my Samsung HU8550 (with non-FALD local dimming), consequently, I put the "Smart LED" control at its maximum value, to use all available local dimming.

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post #69 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
.
Or, they hand picked from a 5 or 10 Vizio's the best one, then did the reverse with the Sammy, found the worst one.
I'm sure what was sent was not the first one someone grabbed.
Pure speculation. This talk of a panel lottery or source panels is a bunch of hooey as it's not enough of a differentiating factor to undermine the basic design of both sets (edge-lit w/frame dimming vs FALD). Both series use VA panels across the board (sans the 32" and 42" M series) correct? When you bring a knife to a gun fight you're worried about being shot, not the particulars of the knifes and guns.

I don't see any iteration where the H7150 won't be outmatched by the M series.

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post #70 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 07:36 AM
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I think you make a very good point. Local dimming is LCD-LED's best shot at approximating the great black levels of plasma. In comparing black levels of LCD-LED and plasma sets, it makes no sense at all to turn off local dimming, because then any progress LCD-LED has made becomes unobservable.
In setting up my Samsung HU8550 (with non-FALD local dimming), consequently, I put the "Smart LED" control at its maximum value, to use all available local dimming.
That's the point I was trying to relay. You did a much better (and shorter) job of getting that across than I did. When I read this thread, what I was picturing was my several year old samsung back lit lcd and the vizio lcd I have in the bedroom. I also have an eight year old panasonic plasma in the living room that's still going strong. In the interim between when I sold my LG 7600 (which was edge lit w/local dimming as LG called it) and when my 7100 was delivered, I watched my old samsung lcd. The blacks looked quite gray. There was a huge perceived difference between it and what the LG looked like , and obviously what the F7100 could do. The LG and the samsung even make my old panasonic plasma look gray in comparison. The "local dimming" (I'll use that term loosely because I know it's not full array or even "true" local dimming as was pointed out to me earlier so I don't want anyone to think I don't understand the difference) makes the blacks "blacker" and tames all but the worst cases of edge bleeding inherent in the edge lit led sets. In a normal viewing environment, most led sets regardless of manufacturer in a lit room nowadays are going to look pretty good. The differences become more apparent side by side with the lights out and I won't argue that. The gist of all my rambling is yes, when you put the tv in movie mode and it disable the micro dimming by default and turn off cinema black, you might as well be watching a several year old tv which is exactly what was going on. The OP described how gray the letterbox bars looked and the apparent edge bleeding and flashlighting. All to be expected in that setup. And it made the vizio look fantastic. I'm not arguing that the samsung is a better set. It's not. Calibrated in a dark room there's no comparison. The FALD is going to win. But saying "oh, they are both in movie mode" to make it seem like they are set up the same, seems a little unfair. Vizio stacked the deck in their favor since it was their demo. And once again, I'm NOT saying the 7150 is better. Not by any means. I'm trying to point out that in reality, the differences aren't SO huge.


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post #71 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 08:00 AM
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I think you make a very good point. Local dimming is LCD-LED's best shot at approximating the great black levels of plasma. In comparing black levels of LCD-LED and plasma sets, it makes no sense at all to turn off local dimming, because then any progress LCD-LED has made becomes unobservable.
In setting up my Samsung HU8550 (with non-FALD local dimming), consequently, I put the "Smart LED" control at its maximum value, to use all available local dimming.
You need to understand that there are hardware and video based dimming schemes (frame dimming) for edge-lit designs. You can read this article on the differences between the two, in particular read near the end of the article about global dimming (a.k.a frame dimming):

"Another variation of the theme senses the average brightness of the scene and, during darker scenes, ratchets down the whole backlight. Again black levels improve at the expense of highlights and sometimes-visible fluctuations in overall brightness."

The HU8550 uses a hardware based dimming scheme and the F7100/H7150 uses a video based dimming scheme. From the cnet Samsung F7100 Series review:

"The TV features microdimming, which is an electronic dimming system; it doesn't control the backlight, it's software only. The "Dynamic Contrast" is designed to offer better contrast but, as per the calibration notes, it behaved similarly to the same mode on the F6400 (that is, it caused crushing), and I ultimately opted not to use it."

So yes, it can make sense not to engage the dimming scheme used on the F7100/H7150.

I think Samsung's 7 series has some admirable traits but other than top notch video processing they're not PQ based.

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post #72 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 09:54 AM
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Pure speculation. This talk of a panel lottery or source panels is a bunch of hooey as it's not enough of a differentiating factor to undermine the basic design of both sets (edge-lit w/frame dimming vs FALD).
Not if you're talking about off angle viewing and off-axis color fade. From head on it doesn't much matter.
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post #73 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 01:14 PM
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The HU8550 uses a hardware based dimming scheme and the F7100/H7150 uses a video based dimming scheme. From the cnet Samsung F7100 Series review:

"The TV features microdimming, which is an electronic dimming system; it doesn't control the backlight, it's software only. The "Dynamic Contrast" is designed to offer better contrast but, as per the calibration notes, it behaved similarly to the same mode on the F6400 (that is, it caused crushing), and I ultimately opted not to use it."

So yes, it can make sense not to engage the dimming scheme used on the F7100/H7150.
There are several things I don't understand, here. One is how you can have dimming which doesn't control the backlight. Another is what "Dynamic Contrast" has to do with dimming. (I have a control by this name on a plasma set as well as on my HU8550, and I didn't think it controlled dimming.) I did read your references, and here is what the CNET calibration report says about this:
Quote:
-Calibration notes: Using the "Cinema Black: Low" value had the best black levels of all the options tested. While Dynamic Contrast control at Low in concert with the Cinema Black control gave a tiny (0.001) better black it pushed the Gamma levels out too much. Other DC values caused crushing of the 5 per cent bar and hence a loss of contrast.
But even if a dimming control does crush blacks, if it improves black level, I don't see how you reach the conclusion that a reviewer should turn it off for reporting on black level.

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post #74 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
I think you make a very good point. Local dimming is LCD-LED's best shot at approximating the great black levels of plasma. In comparing black levels of LCD-LED and plasma sets, it makes no sense at all to turn off local dimming, because then any progress LCD-LED has made becomes unobservable.
In setting up my Samsung HU8550 (with non-FALD local dimming), consequently, I put the "Smart LED" control at its maximum value, to use all available local dimming.
That's the point I was trying to relay. You did a much better (and shorter) job of getting that across than I did. When I read this thread, what I was picturing was my several year old samsung back lit lcd and the vizio lcd I have in the bedroom. I also have an eight year old panasonic plasma in the living room that's still going strong. In the interim between when I sold my LG 7600 (which was edge lit w/local dimming as LG called it) and when my 7100 was delivered, I watched my old samsung lcd. The blacks looked quite gray. There was a huge perceived difference between it and what the LG looked like , and obviously what the F7100 could do. The LG and the samsung even make my old panasonic plasma look gray in comparison. The "local dimming" (I'll use that term loosely because I know it's not full array or even "true" local dimming as was pointed out to me earlier so I don't want anyone to think I don't understand the difference) makes the blacks "blacker" and tames all but the worst cases of edge bleeding inherent in the edge lit led sets. In a normal viewing environment, most led sets regardless of manufacturer in a lit room nowadays are going to look pretty good. The differences become more apparent side by side with the lights out and I won't argue that. The gist of all my rambling is yes, when you put the tv in movie mode and it disable the micro dimming by default and turn off cinema black, you might as well be watching a several year old tv which is exactly what was going on. The OP described how gray the letterbox bars looked and the apparent edge bleeding and flashlighting. All to be expected in that setup. And it made the vizio look fantastic. I'm not arguing that the samsung is a better set. It's not. Calibrated in a dark room there's no comparison. The FALD is going to win. But saying "oh, they are both in movie mode" to make it seem like they are set up the same, seems a little unfair. Vizio stacked the deck in their favor since it was their demo. And once again, I'm NOT saying the 7150 is better. Not by any means. I'm trying to point out that in reality, the differences aren't SO huge.

Until you see both side by side it's kind of hard to say that the differences are not that big. The OP is a reputable poster and was just reporting back his personal findings. Could someone see it differently sure, I think too much is being made of 1 persons opinion though. He was able to put them on settings that most consumers would use (not those who regularly visit this forum) as a test since the majority of buyers don't know and don't care about calibration or the major settings of a TV. Most just turn it on and select one of the picture modes IF they change anything at all. I think we sometimes forget that as enthusiasts we have a different view of TVs and what it takes to get the best picture out if them. Imagic's test was perfectly fine for an initial impression which is how most tvs are bought these days.


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post #75 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

There are several things I don't understand, here. One is how you can have dimming which doesn't control the backlight. Another is what "Dynamic Contrast" has to do with dimming. (I have a control by this name on a plasma set as well as on my HU8550, and I didn't think it controlled dimming.) I did read your references, and here is what the CNET calibration report says about this:
Quote:
-Calibration notes: Using the "Cinema Black: Low" value had the best black levels of all the options tested. While Dynamic Contrast control at Low in concert with the Cinema Black control gave a tiny (0.001) better black it pushed the Gamma levels out too much. Other DC values caused crushing of the 5 per cent bar and hence a loss of contrast.
But even if a dimming control does crush blacks, if it improves black level, I don't see how you reach the conclusion that a reviewer should turn it off for reporting on black level.
Ty Pendlebury, the reviewer, reached the conclusion not to engage the dimming scheme, not me. Dynamic Contrast is Samsung's verbiage for their dimming scheme according to Ty but I'm not sure if he's correct. You may want to refer to cjsiv on that. I believe for your TV it's called Smart LED.

I think what Ty meant by "it doesn't control the backlight" is that none of the LEDs are dimmed independently by the dimming scheme.

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post #76 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 04:28 PM
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Dynamic Contrast is Samsung's verbiage for their dimming scheme according to Ty but I'm not sure if he's correct. You may want to refer to cjsiv on that. I believe for your TV it's called Smart LED.
On my Samsung HU8550, the Smart LED control does change local dimming. On this same set, there is also a control called "Dynamic Contrast" which is said to limit the contrast between light and dark areas.

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The cnet review says the f8000 had more washed out letterboxes than the e series (or m series review). We can trust this review for obvious reasons.

I owned a f8000 and now I own a HU8550 which is now going back. The hu8550 doesn't have cinema black (a dimming option to make letterboxes more black) which the f8000 from 2013 did and now only the curved models this year do (they both have cinema black and Smart LED).

When watching gravity on my 8550. I turned the backlight from 17 to 8 on Movie mode and tried Smart LED high and Dynamic contrast and everything at High.

No matter what, the letterboxes got washed out and the blacks on the letterboxes changed from scene to scene. Sometimes pitch black sometimes a bit lighter -- this never happened on the f8000.

I'm sorry but the E/M series just has better dimming and I really wanted the samsung flat panels to be better. I really did. The 7000 series is obviously inferior to the f8000 in dimming.
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post #78 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 08:37 PM
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When watching gravity on my 8550. I turned the backlight from 17 to 8 on Movie mode and tried Smart LED high and Dynamic contrast and everything at High.
Yes, I know. You said that. Are you listening to me at all? Don't turn the backlight down -- don't turn Dynamic Contrast up. Try turning down Brightness. Just give it a try. Then turn up Gamma.

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post #79 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 09:45 PM
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"If you still think of Vizio as a value brand, it's time to recognize that the company is becoming a leader in image quality. The main reason for that is the use of a backlit LED array. Vizio had a number of LED-backlit TVs in 2013, but according to the company, the improvements in the local-dimming algorithm make the 2014 models much better. Based on the performance of Vizio's E series and M series, I must admit I am quite enthused to see the P series and R series under similar conditions." - imagic

I found this part of the review most interesting. Samsung is stuck in a Catch-22 situation. In order to improve its TV line for the future (2015 and beyond) it has to adopt a proven tech: FALD. But, by doing so it is relinquishing its role as the leader in the industry; leaders do not follow. I believe they assumed this role when all the other TV makers followed Samsung into the edge-lit world. If it begins to abandon edge lighting it would be a tacit admission that it is no longer the leader in the industry and if they do not they risk others surpassing it and ultimately affecting the bottom line. It is also reasonable to assume that all the TV makers are closely monitoring Vizio as we are doing here and to see low and mid range models doing so well against high end models will cause changes in future products. It seems to me the target has moved from Samsung to Vizio and it is probably giving Samsung executives sleepless nights as others are redesigning their future TVs.
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post #80 of 146 Old 06-14-2014, 09:55 PM
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Not sure Samsung execs will have sleepless nights. They will still sell boatloads of TVs compared to Vizio. Also, going to FALD would not be relinquishing a "leader" status. There are many improvements that can be made with FALD and by putting their selling power behind the tech they could start something really great. Melding their motion capabilities and a FALD screen would be one heck of a TV.


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post #81 of 146 Old 06-15-2014, 12:20 AM
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"If you still think of Vizio as a value brand, it's time to recognize that the company is becoming a leader in image quality. The main reason for that is the use of a backlit LED array. Vizio had a number of LED-backlit TVs in 2013, but according to the company, the improvements in the local-dimming algorithm make the 2014 models much better. Based on the performance of Vizio's E series and M series, I must admit I am quite enthused to see the P series and R series under similar conditions." - imagic

I found this part of the review most interesting. Samsung is stuck in a Catch-22 situation. In order to improve its TV line for the future (2015 and beyond) it has to adopt a proven tech: FALD. But, by doing so it is relinquishing its role as the leader in the industry; leaders do not follow. I believe they assumed this role when all the other TV makers followed Samsung into the edge-lit world. If it begins to abandon edge lighting it would be a tacit admission that it is no longer the leader in the industry and if they do not they risk others surpassing it and ultimately affecting the bottom line. It is also reasonable to assume that all the TV makers are closely monitoring Vizio as we are doing here and to see low and mid range models doing so well against high end models will cause changes in future products. It seems to me the target has moved from Samsung to Vizio and it is probably giving Samsung executives sleepless nights as others are redesigning their future TVs.
It wouldn't be forfeiting an industry leadership role at all. If I recall the only reason that Samsung stopped making full-backlit LED sets was because they got into some sort of patent lawsuit over the technology with Sharp and haven't made one until just last year, and even then only in the small volume 85" 4K set. If I remember correctly Samsung had three models with full-array local dimming; the 81F, the A950, and the B8500 before Vizio was even a blip on the enthusiast radar.

What I don't understand is how a full-backlit TV with only 32 zones can 1) dim effectively enough with sufficient resolution and 2) not cause excessive blooming. Even the 55" Sony 929/950 had some issues with this and those had something like 96 zones. The Cnet review of the M-Series said blooming was not egregious, but I'd like to see for myself.

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post #82 of 146 Old 06-15-2014, 12:32 AM
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So wait vizio doesnt use ips anymore? Is that for the e series or m series? 2014 or 2013? If not what panel do they use i was gonna grab one but not sure now.
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post #83 of 146 Old 06-15-2014, 05:06 AM
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It wouldn't be forfeiting an industry leadership role at all. If I recall the only reason that Samsung stopped making full-backlit LED sets was because they got into some sort of patent lawsuit over the technology with Sharp and haven't made one until just last year, and even then only in the small volume 85" 4K set. If I remember correctly Samsung had three models with full-array local dimming; the 81F, the A950, and the B8500 before Vizio was even a blip on the enthusiast radar.
The lawsuit from Sharp didn't have anything to do with full array local dimming backlights. Samsung decided to stop making them for some other reason.

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What I don't understand is how a full-backlit TV with only 32 zones can 1) dim effectively enough with sufficient resolution and 2) not cause excessive blooming. Even the 55" Sony 929/950 had some issues with this and those had something like 96 zones. The Cnet review of the M-Series said blooming was not egregious, but I'd like to see for myself.
It's all about how aggressive you get with the local dimming. One way would be to limit the amount of backlight intensity difference between adjacent zones. IE; Don't allow adjacent zones to go full on / full off. I'm sure a lot of companies are busy trying to improve and tune their algorithms.
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post #84 of 146 Old 06-15-2014, 05:56 AM
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The edge lit LCD TV will never match with backlit full array with local dimming. This was one of the major issue that prevented me to buy any TV back then in 2011 and that's why I finally bought Sony XBR55HX929 a full array with local dimming and it still looks amazing.

Though I could have got good deal on Panasonic plasma TV through my company's perk discount but, the buzzing issue and burn-in issue (yes it's still present though highly improved) still exist.
I just bought my wife a 46" 7150 because it could fit on her stand and was lightweight and slim. Its ok picture and shes happy. I like to get the best though.
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post #85 of 146 Old 06-15-2014, 05:59 AM
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"If you still think of Vizio as a value brand, it's time to recognize that the company is becoming a leader in image quality. The main reason for that is the use of a backlit LED array. Vizio had a number of LED-backlit TVs in 2013, but according to the company, the improvements in the local-dimming algorithm make the 2014 models much better. Based on the performance of Vizio's E series and M series, I must admit I am quite enthused to see the P series and R series under similar conditions." - imagic

I found this part of the review most interesting. Samsung is stuck in a Catch-22 situation. In order to improve its TV line for the future (2015 and beyond) it has to adopt a proven tech: FALD. But, by doing so it is relinquishing its role as the leader in the industry; leaders do not follow. I believe they assumed this role when all the other TV makers followed Samsung into the edge-lit world. If it begins to abandon edge lighting it would be a tacit admission that it is no longer the leader in the industry and if they do not they risk others surpassing it and ultimately affecting the bottom line. It is also reasonable to assume that all the TV makers are closely monitoring Vizio as we are doing here and to see low and mid range models doing so well against high end models will cause changes in future products. It seems to me the target has moved from Samsung to Vizio and it is probably giving Samsung executives sleepless nights as others are redesigning their future TVs.
Not willing to change and continually releasing inferior products will easily remove you from leader status. People will start to abandon anyone when their products do not equal or best the competition. We don't get paid to buy a specific manufacturers product, we pay them and people should be buying the best product for their money.
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post #86 of 146 Old 06-15-2014, 06:40 AM
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[quote=fatuglyguy;24978745]
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Originally Posted by jhck66 View Post

What I don't understand is how a full-backlit TV with only 32 zones can 1) dim effectively enough with sufficient resolution and 2) not cause excessive blooming. Even the 55" Sony 929/950 had some issues with this and those had something like 96 zones. The Cnet review of the M-Series said blooming was not egregious, but I'd like to see for myself.
It's about the improved algorithms they are using that can do more with less.





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post #87 of 146 Old 06-15-2014, 07:48 AM
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Not willing to change and continually releasing inferior products will easily remove you from leader status. People will start to abandon anyone when their products do not equal or best the competition. We don't get paid to buy a specific manufacturers product, we pay them and people should be buying the best product for their money.
It's not that Samsung is not willing to change ('lead') - it's that they are leading in a different direction. Samsung is doing its best to lead us into a future where the best TVs are curved.

Samsung sold the world on 'thin' and they sold the world on 'LED' and now they believe they can sell the world on 'curve'

We'll get what we deserve, but I'm sure hoping Vizio eats Samsung's lunch in the US market this year.
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post #88 of 146 Old 06-15-2014, 12:52 PM
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It's not that Samsung is not willing to change ('lead') - it's that they are leading in a different direction. Samsung is doing its best to lead us into a future where the best TVs are curved.

Samsung sold the world on 'thin' and they sold the world on 'LED' and now they believe they can sell the world on 'curve'

We'll get what we deserve, but I'm sure hoping Vizio eats Samsung's lunch in the US market this year.
Actually I have no problem with "thin" and "LED" backlighting. Vizio's FALD units are still fairly thin televisions. I'm not sold on curve however and it appears Samsung has given up on having us gesturing to our televisions. They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I expect to see some of that next year. Then again it's not like the market on the whole cares a great deal about PQ.

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post #89 of 146 Old 06-15-2014, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Not willing to change and continually releasing inferior products will easily remove you from leader status. People will start to abandon anyone when their products do not equal or best the competition. We don't get paid to buy a specific manufacturers product, we pay them and people should be buying the best product for their money.
It's not that Samsung is not willing to change ('lead') - it's that they are leading in a different direction. Samsung is doing its best to lead us into a future where the best TVs are curved.

Samsung sold the world on 'thin' and they sold the world on 'LED' and now they believe they can sell the world on 'curve'

We'll get what we deserve, but I'm sure hoping Vizio eats Samsung's lunch in the US market this year.
So far Samsung's moves appear savvy, it has a commanding lead in sales of premium TVs. Vizio really is an bit of a phenomenon and if it can give the US market a TV that the world can feel a little jealous about, then more power to the company. I hope Vizio's brave break from where the market was going pays off big-time. Curved TV screens are useless, I have no problem stating that as a fact, no IME required.
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post #90 of 146 Old 06-15-2014, 02:11 PM
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