Eye Test vs Accuracy - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 06-18-2014, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Eye Test vs Accuracy

With so many people, reviewers and websites talking about color accuracy I decided to go see some of these sets calibrated to their settings which, for most TVs, was movie mode.

I have to say I was not impressed at all with "accurate" colors. I'm watching TV. I know I'm watching TV. I know the difference between TV and real life. If I wanted realistic color and lighting I would go outside and enjoy a real life activity.

Most movies and all video games are CG therefore they have nothing as a basis for colors anyway. Who is to say if Tron should be a blue-green, blue, or green-blue color. I want my colors to pop and during night scenes have city lights shine brightly against the dark sky.

Personally I look for 3 attributes:

1. Clarity
2. Color Saturation
3. Contrast

And for me, Samsung sets seem to hit all 3 marks better than almost any other brand regardless of how accurate testers say other TVs are.

So why is such a big deal made out of accuracy? I'll take the dynamic seeing over standard or movie modes any day.

Oddly enough though, as can be seen by my avatar, I'll take my musical sounds nice and smooth. Sennheiser HD598 fit that requirement nicely.

PS This was written while my significant other was yammering on about something. What that was I have no clue.

Last edited by Ohiojosh78; 06-18-2014 at 01:33 PM.
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post #2 of 19 Old 06-18-2014, 01:33 PM
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I agree, only I think a set should be able to render well-lit fleshtones in a pleasing way.
Nothing jars my sensibilities more than flat 'clay face' color that lacks depth and contour.
But you are right about the color of most productions -- they are deliberately skewed for effect.
That's where clarity, saturation and contrast come in. It's important to be able to see what's
going on in those dark and moody scenes!
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post #3 of 19 Old 06-18-2014, 02:03 PM
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The industry uses a standard and if the viewer wants to see the image as intended then you look to match that standard which is what calibration does. It's pretty simple.

You talk about Tron and ask who is to say it should look a certain colour...the director and cinematographer and all the other people involved in making the movie say it should look a certain colour.

It's interesting you bring up real life when most movies and shows are not produced to look like real life both in colour and lighting which is often what bothers non purists because they complain that show X or movie Y doesn't look like what they see when they step outside of their house.

Having said that, if people wish to view the image however it pleases them then all the power to them as long as I don't have to watch stuff like dynamic and vivid mode and jacked up super cool colour temps which I don't (thankfully) with manufacturers letting the user have access to adjustments in their displays.
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ROB

Last edited by rlindo; 06-18-2014 at 02:07 PM.
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post #4 of 19 Old 06-18-2014, 02:43 PM
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Good points. There is the assumption that the display will be able to render everything thrown at it.
I'm not sure that is the case. Technology takes two steps forward and one step back over and over.
Plasma TV uses phosphors the way CRT TVs did and has problems with brightness.
Liquid crystal displays worked a certain way with the phosphors of fluorescent tubes -- even some expanded gamut possibilities.
White LEDs are the newest game and they started out poorly, with unbalanced spectra.
Each system has it's good points and all have faults. I love to see the deep emerald greens that
a friend's plasma set can deliver. Another friend has a wide gamut fluorescent-lit LCD that makes
vivid aquamarine colors. The latest generation of white LEDs is better than last year's, with much
better balance of the primaries and less need to push everything towards blue to boost brightness.
All I want is accuracy -- well a boring old studio monitor would dimly display that -- or a set whose
color space is restricted by the least robust of the primaries. Competence is hard to come by and
each maker has their own formula, which changes as they take on new challenges. We don't even
have competent compression of HDTV pictures over cable and satellite and we are jumping into 4K.
Where is competence in all this?
I'm getting to know a state of the art edge-lit set whose backlight masterfully controls the screen to
render extremes of light and dark seamlessly. A dark room with an open bright doorway shows the
shadow detail and the brilliant sunlight streaming in side by side without recourse to local dimming
with all its problems. I had a set I loved for 2 years and it died and the warranty replaced it with
one that is lightyears better. There is progress, but 4K will set us back while the kinks are worked out.
And the price wars. It never ends...
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post #5 of 19 Old 06-18-2014, 03:22 PM
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There is no question different company sets and techs will look different out of the box but that's why all those adjustments are there to make things look generally the same save for any funky stuff they have thrown into their sets that can't be easily adjusted without screwing up other stuff or any deficiencies in areas like contrast ratio which has a huge impact on how saturated/good colour looks.

I have 5 different technologies of displays in my life and while I am sure if I put them side by side I'd see some differences, going from one to another looks close enough (save for the differences in contrast ratio, brightness, sharpness of course) that I am not saying "wow, this image is way off compared to the other" and the reason for that is because I've calibrated them to the same industry standard.

ROB
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post #6 of 19 Old 06-18-2014, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo View Post
There is no question different company sets and techs will look different out of the box but that's why all those adjustments are there to make things look generally the same save for any funky stuff they have thrown into their sets that can't be easily adjusted without screwing up other stuff or any deficiencies in areas like contrast ratio which has a huge impact on how saturated/good colour looks.

I have 5 different technologies of displays in my life and while I am sure if I put them side by side I'd see some differences, going from one to another looks close enough (save for the differences in contrast ratio, brightness, sharpness of course) that I am not saying "wow, this image is way off compared to the other" and the reason for that is because I've calibrated them to the same industry standard.
If someone would go into my settings and use a meter on them, I'd be happy to try the revisions.
I wonder what role Green plays in color temperature calculation. I know they triangulate all
three primaries, but the red/green axis is all that is used to determine 'temperature'.
All I try to do is make the white uniform and as close to clean chalky white as I can.
That, and make sure none of the colors are clipping. I have no problem with machine calibration
if the resulting real-world image is pure monochrome, without variation based on shade of gray
and the white is clean and the faces have some life to them. Is that too much to ask?
Most calibrations are done on MOVIE mode and look like they are lit by candlelight to my eyes.
Call be jaded by all the blue in the world, I suppose, but what about the green?...
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post #7 of 19 Old 06-19-2014, 03:07 PM
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Personally I like to calibrate to HD.709 rec with a BT.1886 gamma.

Why?

It looks better.

If you target white (color temp) outside of 6500 (D65) you throw your color off as well.

Skin tones don't look right
whites look off
everything is just a bit off

I agree games/animated movies it wouldn't matter for me as there is no reference to "normal". But that is a 1% part of my viewing.

Even if you do pick your own white target (color temp) that isn't the D65 standard, setting your 2&10pt white balance can make a big difference if yours is off from the factory. You need a meter to do this.

But really in the end, it's your TV and it only matters what makes you happy. No one can tell you any different... However my wife who could care less about video now points out when we go places what is off with their TV picture since she watches a calibrated TV all the time. I think it's kinda funny... I should note she only says what she see's to me

-SiGGy

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post #8 of 19 Old 06-19-2014, 03:21 PM
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Out of the mouths of babes.
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post #9 of 19 Old 06-19-2014, 03:27 PM
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This is probably the most hotly debated subject on AVS. There are a lot of individuals who are very passionate and dogmatic in their approach to this subject. The bottom line is what looks best to you. A real calibration done on your own set, borrowing some else's settings and saying your tv is calibrated, adjusting only with a disk, or tweaking to taste (eyeball adjustment). It doesn't really matter. If you want your tv to be able to display movies with as much accuracy as is possible, and to fully display the capabilities of your brand new investment, then either calibrate it properly or, at the very least, adjust the basics with a disk. Games and animation don't count because they don't really have to follow the rec.709 standards. Every tv has different responses, even within the exact same build line. Some look great right out of the box and need very little, if any adjusting. Others can be a nightmare. Source is also a problem so there will always be compromises even with a calibrated tv that is dead-on-balls perfect. I think the advantage of at least adjusting with a disk is that you learn how the various parameters work together and you can always "touch up" your tv as components age and start to drift a bit.
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post #10 of 19 Old 06-19-2014, 03:32 PM
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If you want what's on a blu-ray disk on you flatscreen then calibrate your TV on a professional level. If you do not care what's on a blu-ray disc then do whatever you want..
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post #11 of 19 Old 06-19-2014, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
If you want what's on a blu-ray disk on you flatscreen then calibrate your TV on a professional level. If you do not care what's on a blu-ray disc then do whatever you want..
Passionate and dogmatic indeed...
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post #12 of 19 Old 06-19-2014, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohiojosh78 View Post
I have to say I was not impressed at all with "accurate" colors. I'm watching TV. I know I'm watching TV. I know the difference between TV and real life. If I wanted realistic color and lighting I would go outside and enjoy a real life activity.
There is little agreement among us about how to interpret "accuracy". Accurate to what? My own preference is "accurate to real life", but that is unusual. Most, like you, have some other standard in mind. The non-realists can speak for themselves. Here is a post from Richard Harkness that approximates my own view: "Steaming Rat," or "Rich's Method For Achieving A More Realistic Image... .

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post #13 of 19 Old 06-19-2014, 05:20 PM
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I think the answer to that, which is what I painfully learned over in the Calibration forum, is that "accuracy" in a calibration is defined as adjusting your tv to known, verifiable, and scientifically determined reference standards (that are used by the movie industry). Certainly open to interpretation, and I agree with everyone here, so don't take that as an introduction to an argument. I think we all agree that if you're happy with your pq then that's all that matters, regardless of how you came to that. I know a lot of people who paid good money for a very well done professional calibration (not by BB) but just didn't like it cause it was not what they were used to seeing or what they thought it should be.
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post #14 of 19 Old 06-19-2014, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
This is probably the most hotly debated subject on AVS. There are a lot of individuals who are very passionate and dogmatic in their approach to this subject. The bottom line is what looks best to you. A real calibration done on your own set, borrowing some else's settings and saying your tv is calibrated, adjusting only with a disk, or tweaking to taste (eyeball adjustment). It doesn't really matter. If you want your tv to be able to display movies with as much accuracy as is possible, and to fully display the capabilities of your brand new investment, then either calibrate it properly or, at the very least, adjust the basics with a disk. Games and animation don't count because they don't really have to follow the rec.709 standards. Every tv has different responses, even within the exact same build line. Some look great right out of the box and need very little, if any adjusting. Others can be a nightmare. Source is also a problem so there will always be compromises even with a calibrated tv that is dead-on-balls perfect. I think the advantage of at least adjusting with a disk is that you learn how the various parameters work together and you can always "touch up" your tv as components age and start to drift a bit.
Good advice!
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post #15 of 19 Old 06-19-2014, 06:45 PM
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I think we all agree that if you're happy with your pq then that's all that matters, regardless of how you came to that.
No, it's not about being happy, so far as I'm concerned. I'd like to find the right way, whether or not it pleases me.

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post #16 of 19 Old 06-19-2014, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I decided to pick up the Disney Wow blue ray since it was on sale again on Amazon. Once my Sammy U8550 shows up and they haul away the F8000 I'll see if it does any better than my own, by the seat of my pants, adjustments.

Yes, I know that disk isn't a professional calibration but I'm not spending 100s on that.

II was wanting to hold out for the Vizio P or R series but they're talking too long to say anything

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post #17 of 19 Old 06-19-2014, 10:12 PM
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No, it's not about being happy, so far as I'm concerned. I'd like to find the right way, whether or not it pleases me.
That's easy then. Just calibrate your tv. Either pay a professional or buy the proper equipment and learn how to do it yourself if you don't know already. The decision is yours.
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post #18 of 19 Old 06-19-2014, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohiojosh78 View Post
Well I decided to pick up the Disney Wow blue ray since it was on sale again on Amazon. Once my Sammy U8550 shows up and they haul away the F8000 I'll see if it does any better than my own, by the seat of my pants, adjustments.

Yes, I know that disk isn't a professional calibration but I'm not spending 100s on that.

II was wanting to hold out for the Vizio P or R series but they're talking too long to say anything
Using a disk alone may be all you need. $40, or what ever the disk costs, is a lot cheaper than $350 - $600 for a professional cal. There is the free AVS HD709 disk that works very well if you want to try a free disk. Just don't compare the two. Pick a disk and stick with it. Turn off or disable all video processing on your tv and the blu-ray player and adjust away.
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post #19 of 19 Old 06-20-2014, 01:58 AM
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I have great good luck with the disc found here on this site.
It takes some patience and hitting the 'reset' button a few times to master it.
Start with which picture you want: Standard, Movie, User, PC, etc.
Then pick a shade of white from the Temperature scale.
Then balance that white shade with the disc gray scale.
Usually, that is about all you need to do!
Set up the picture with several different settings and compare them.
Im recommending using the OPC control. It works great on the new sets.
At least give it a try -- you can always switch it off and set the backlight manually.
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