Masking Your Edgelit LCD TV for Better Blacks - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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Old 07-01-2014, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
Are you people serious? The walkman was the only thing Sony did right.
Ha ha I'm not so sure of that however they did and still do at least as many things wrong as they do right

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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Old 07-02-2014, 03:07 AM
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Lol, all this reminds me of a famous quote by someone I really don't want to credit.

"It is not truth that matters, but victory"

...........sigh
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Old 07-02-2014, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Canaria View Post
Lol, all this reminds me of a famous quote by someone I really don't want to credit.

"It is not truth that matters, but victory"

...........sigh
Yes he was particularly despicable individual which in it self is actually a gross understatement !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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Old 07-02-2014, 04:33 AM
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Yes he was particularly despicable individual which in it self is actually a gross understatement !
Lol, have you broken anything out of pure frustration yet.
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Old 07-02-2014, 04:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Lol, have you broken anything out of pure frustration yet.
I see people who make repeated incorrect posts as both an opportunity and the motivation to get good information out there.
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Old 07-02-2014, 04:45 AM
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Lol, have you broken anything out of pure frustration yet.
TBH.....well there was a while here when I was questioning my sanity (or at least my better judgment ) and why I was wasting so much time
responding to someone to absolutely no avail with what would appear to be diagnosable issues
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Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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Old 07-02-2014, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I see people who make repeated incorrect posts as both an opportunity and the motivation to get good information out there.
Well I have to tell you and Tubetwister. If it wasn't for this persons stubbornness, I would have never been able to learn as much from the rest of you as I have in the last few days. It backfired on him and something positive came of this, I at least have to thank him for that.

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Old 07-02-2014, 06:08 AM
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Shooting fish in a barrel gets boring and monotonous after a while .......... I had to stop !
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Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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Old 07-02-2014, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canaria View Post
Well I have to tell you and Tubetwister. If it wasn't for this persons stubbornness, I would have never been able to learn as much from the rest of you as I have in the last few days. It backfired on him and something positive came of this, I at least have to thank him for that.

OK based on what you have learned here, how does a Sony TV when set to the auto scene mode know how to choose the Music scene mode when you watch a concert via an off air ATSC broadcast? How does the TV know that it is a music concert and not music in a movie or music in a TV series or music in a video game?

You "professionals" can try to answer that one!
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Old 07-02-2014, 07:15 AM
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I am scared to jump into this one - but wasn't the point of all this discussion an attempt to say the Sony is calibrating itself so to speak and that calibration in general was a waste of money. I imagine that there is some type of algorithm involved in the displays programing that selects the mode when in auto similar to a receiver set to auto surround mode and it selecting what it thinks is the best mode for surround. In the end all of this has nothing to do with the value of calibration and I have yet to see any metadata, sorry I mean data, from you proving anything that you've said/speculated. I can throw out theories all day long on this thread, the hard part can be proving that theory is indeed a fact. Your position is a perfect example of the hard part, it may be time to give it a rest unless you can link some factual information backing up your claims.

Full disclosure, I am not a professional, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night with all the 2 cents gifted to me by another forum member. When do we go back to cardboard and tape? Now that Mark has a plasma he won't need it in his house
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:35 AM
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Again , Shooting fish in a barrel gets boring and monotonous after a while (too easy ).......... I had to stop !
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Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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Old 07-02-2014, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
OK based on what you have learned here, how does a Sony TV when set to the auto scene mode know...
Moot point because only someone who had no clue what they're doing would leave the TV in auto scene mode.
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by THX1720 View Post
Moot point because only someone who had no clue what they're doing would leave the TV in auto scene mode.
Is that like using your camera in the green box mode?
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:49 AM
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Almost but not quite. The green mode usually just creates a balance between aperture and ISO and shutter speed. The scene mode in digital cameras also take aperture priority or shutter priority or macro mode or flash intensity or exposure compensation into consideration depending on the scene analysis.

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Old 07-02-2014, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Cool. Do you do anything to eliminate the gap between the bezel and the screen itself, or does it not really matter?
GREAT THREAD imagic! This is just the type of propeller-head stuff that makes an enshusiast forum so fun and valuable.

As I've mentioned many times, I began masking my plasma early on:

My Adventures In Masking....

(Unfortunately it seems an earlier thread I'd made detailing how I did the masking, with photos, has been lost).
My Panasonic plasma did not produce perfect pitch black, so masking improved the image.

I started with dark drawing board in a manner much like yours. But I wanted a smaller gap from the masking to picture surface as you mention. So I went to a fabric store and found this black wide (e.g. around 6" wide if I remember), stretchy material, almost like a waistband, that came in whatever length you cut it.

I cut two pieces of fabric to wrap around top/bottom of the screen covering 2:35:1 black bars. I attached velcro to each side of the fabric, and attached velcro just around the back of my plasma screen edge. It worked perfectly.
The benefits were:

No ugly masking contraption sitting on the screen, and the velcro is hidden behind, so nothing ruins the aesthetics of the TV in normal viewing conditions.

But when it came time to watch a 2:35:1 movie, the material wrapped on in seconds.

Final benefit is that the stretchy, taut nature of the fabric put it much closer to the screen surface, almost right on it but not quite touching, so visually there was no gap between the material and the movie image: it was just a perfect black edge.

As mentioned in the link I've given, I also hung a black sheet behind my plasma sometimes, which made the 2:35:1 image "float" even better in space.

I don't use this any more on the plasma as I watch movies in my home theater with variable 4 way masking.

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Old 07-02-2014, 12:35 PM
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With all due respect, this is the dumbest idea I've seen since those "make your screen larger" magnifying sheets they used to sell to people to put in front of their CRT TVs!

Why not just buy a better TV and/or use bias lighting and/or more ambient lighting in the room?
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Old 07-02-2014, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loopthrough View Post
With all due respect,
You always know it's going to be bad with that lead in...


Quote:
Originally Posted by loopthrough View Post
this is the dumbest idea I've seen since those "make your screen larger" magnifying sheets they used to sell to people to put in front of their CRT TVs!
Not that someone with 3 posts shouldn't have an opinion but...maaaybe some experienced members have put a bit more thought into this than you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by loopthrough View Post
Why not just buy a better TV
Better TVs are more expensive. Not everyone owns a TV with perfect black levels, or is in a position to replace
theirs.

In my case, my plasma at the time couldn't do great black levels - no non-CRT display could (and no CRTs could give you as big and precise an image as a plasma). So the masking turned out to be a huge benefit.

These days there are still plenty of displays that can not maintain perfectly black "bars" for 2:35:1 movies, especially as LCD has become so dominant. Even in very expensive, well regarded LCD displays I see uneven light illumination issues in the black bars area. Masking really does help make images look better in many cases.


Quote:
Originally Posted by loopthrough View Post
and/or use bias lighting
I don't like bias lighting. Having tried it several ways, I find it more distracting than a benefit. As Mark was saying, the masking is of particular use to those of us who like to watch in the dark, for a greater sense of focus and immersion. I find bias lighting detracts from this goal. (If someone else likes bias lighting, that's great: but not everyone does).

Further, bias lighting is unlikely to fix the issue of uneven illumination in the black bar areas of the 2:35:1 image.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loopthrough View Post
and/or more ambient lighting in the room?
Because: as already stated in the OP, watching with the lights down aids the sense of immersion, which is why so many of us do it. Raising the ambient light is moving in the opposite direction of the goal!

Further, the more ambient light you introduce, the more chance you have of compromising the image on your TV.

Honest...there really are good reasons why some people would want to do these types of things. It just takes a little more experience to learn why. Maybe hold off on the twitchy trigger finger of condemnation for maybe a few more posts?
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Old 07-02-2014, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loopthrough View Post
With all due respect, this is the dumbest idea I've seen since those "make your screen larger" magnifying sheets they used to sell to people to put in front of their CRT TVs!

Why not just buy a better TV and/or use bias lighting and/or more ambient lighting in the room?
I'll explore bias lighting in another thread. I just picked up a 64-inch F8500; I'm doing OK in the "better TV department." That doesn't make my suggestion any less valid, if someone has a TV they want to tinker with the results are very pleasing.

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Old 07-02-2014, 01:38 PM
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Imagic,

I also have to add that even people with Black Diamond 0.6 gain screen WILL benefit from the masking.

As most of us already know, in projector world, there is no such thing as "real black".
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Old 07-02-2014, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Imagic,

I also have to add that even people with Black Diamond 0.6 gain screen WILL benefit from the masking.

As most of us already know, in projector world, there is no such thing as "real black".
Yeah, so many people assume "if I get a dark gray screen then I won't need any masking because the black bars will be so dark!" But (if we are talking about the projected black 2:35:1 bars) dark screens don't make automatically dark black bars. It's still projected "black" and not true black.

I watch in real "bat cave" conditions so I'm sensitive to black levels. As for TVs, I continue to check them out (and in the higher end stores when I can, under controlled lighting). Aside from OLED I personally have not seen a display do perfect black levels in the dark, and to that extent I'd think most displays would still benefit from masking for 2;35:1 movies. (And when I say "benefit" I mean in terms of tweaking toward perfection of the black bars....not that many people will bother doing so, which I fully understand).

Mark/imagic
...do you watch in pitch black, or just "darker lighting" conditions? With the lights out, can you see the black bars on your plasma for scope movies? (Obviously I'd mean in lower APL scenes, due to the fact that bright scenes can bias our eyes to percieve the "gray" bars as "black").
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Old 07-02-2014, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'll explore bias lighting in another thread. I just picked up a 64-inch F8500; I'm doing OK in the "better TV department." That doesn't make my suggestion any less valid, if someone has a TV they want to tinker with the results are very pleasing.
Fair enough but it seems like a clunky solution to me!
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Old 07-02-2014, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Is that like using your camera in the green box mode?
Haha sort of. Except there is a lot more of subjectivity and artistry in photography, as it is your own creation. In the case of a TV it's about achieving the proper look given objective criteria.
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Old 07-02-2014, 06:20 PM
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NO TBH I' m watching Megan Kelly and Brit Hume hate on Bill Ayers and his buddy Obama on the Fox network that is far more entertaining than discussing picture control fairy nonsense with fools !

My Sony is a black rectangular 2013 model I forget which one ....no resident picture fairies in there though
picture sucks on automatic I never use it myself .

After a while I'm going to stream a Netflix super HD movie to my real TV ..............the Sammie Plasma


I will probably be busy as far as you are concerned for the next 100 years or so ............know what I mean

It would have been a lot easier to just say that your TV does not have auto scene select and you don't understand how it works or what it does!

https://docs.sony.com/release/KDL-R4...421A_R400A.pdf
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Old 07-02-2014, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Almost but not quite. The green mode usually just creates a balance between aperture and ISO and shutter speed. The scene mode in digital cameras also take aperture priority or shutter priority or macro mode or flash intensity or exposure compensation into consideration depending on the scene analysis.


How does the Music mode in your camera work these days!
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loopthrough View Post
Fair enough but it seems like a clunky solution to me!
Why not just buy a better TV and/or use bias lighting and/or more ambient lighting in the room?

re /tubetwister
I have bias lighting behind my Sony LED

I also have bias lighting behind my real TV ( Sammie plasma )

I'm running about 5000 K on my bias lights ......... I know it's supposed to be 6500K but in my rooms
light creamy beige color (if I described it right ) 5000K works for *my preferences* I tried both
not a big difference in my rooms anyway or maybe I'm going blind

I haven't thought about the mask thing here but on 2: 35: 1 movies especially in bright scenes on LCD I can certainly see it you need some black

I'm mixed on the bias lights sometimes I like them sometimes not so much but I can see the merit there. .
and I use mine as much as not all in all I think most of us should at least try it can be pretty cool .
I would never discourage anyone from trying them in fact I think they should they can be useful .

Further would recommend both Plasma and LCD owners try them they can be cool!
they are probably even more useful with LCD's
I'll be looking forward to Marks discussion on lighting I'm sure I will learn a thing or two

We maybe should cut loopthrough a little slack with him being new and all he's been doing alright over in the LCD
forum . ( I got something working over there for him anyway )☺ all in good fun though not like the other thing .

I don't know if he would like the darkside (plasma forum ) just yet though ☺ .

I think loopthrough is an LCD guy thats OK long as they don't hate on plasma .

You all know how it is with plasmas if you know you know if you don't you don't

loopthrough though opinionated seems seems to know a lot for a newbie or even a not so newbie I think he's been around some TV's I think he will fit in fine !
reasonably credible so far not like YOU KNOW WHO I don't think we have to worry about that with loopthrough.

regards
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:15 PM
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Will somebody tell palmer My TV has auto scene select and I know how to push the button and I know how it works just like David Susilo and his people at Sony told us same as we knew all along ?.


TBH I DGAS about Auto scene select. I'm a Calibrated Cinema scene select/picture mode guy. Auto scene selector is for grandma's and the unfortunate clinically diagnosable misfits or otherwise maybe visually challenged people out there and besides it ruins a good picture !


....... I guess Palmer hasn't figured out by now we aren't speaking .....I don't how he missed the " I'm busy as far as you are concerned for the next 100 yrs thing " .
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Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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Old 07-02-2014, 09:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
TBH.....well there was a while here when I was questioning my sanity (or at least my better judgment ) and why I was wasting so much time
responding to someone to absolutely no avail with what would appear to be many readily apparent clinically diagnosable issues
Hey, now. Watch yourself. I got banned from another thread for saying exactly the same about a different poster who remained recalcitrant despite disproof of his ignorant statements. Apparently calling a kook a kook is a no-no in certain areas of AVS.
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Old 07-02-2014, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Imagic,

I also have to add that even people with Black Diamond 0.6 gain screen WILL benefit from the masking.

As most of us already know, in projector world, there is no such thing as "real black".
Funny you mention that I thought my Toshiba had good blacks for about a year it does for an LCD pretty low as LCD's go I can't remember the # anyway I got my first plasma and thought NOW that's what I'm talkin about !

Then I found out the blacks were grey in the daytime on the PDP kept lurking here learned how to do a passable
very basic DIY calibration on it using AVS HD .709 files from AVS here.


ofc I had already been practicing on the LCD's around here but tuning up a plasma is whole different thing .... to me anyway . The Toshiba has been re purposed and replaced by a bigger Sony recently with good LCD blacks and the first PDP has been sold for what I paid for it and replaced by a bigger PDP
lots of practice on my 5 sets (over and over ) and some I've fixed for folks ( friends or relatives ) still learning .

I have them looking pretty decent for a non expert DIY job now don't have to fiddle anymore . Blacks can be a challenge sometimes no lie and mine aren't perfect but a lot better than they were out of the box . I was an LCD turn it up torch guy before I joined AVS best thing I ever did for my TV's
I think anyone with the dough and isn't an enthusiast rocking their own should hire pro calibrator !

Seems like everytime I see one on out of the box presets now I want to cringe or fix it ☺
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Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-02-2014 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 07-02-2014, 09:49 PM
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Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
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Originally Posted by Apostate View Post
Hey, now. Watch yourself. I got banned from another thread for saying exactly the same about a different poster who remained recalcitrant despite disproof of his ignorant statements. Apparently calling a kook a kook is a no-no in certain areas of AVS.
Yeah I guess telling it like it is isn't always politically correct thanks for the heads up !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-03-2014 at 01:09 AM.
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Old 07-02-2014, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
As you know I was talking about my personal TV. You know, the one that does not require masking because it was calibrated properly at the factory!.
Which TV would that be?

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