Masking Your Edgelit LCD TV for Better Blacks - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 310 Old 06-24-2014, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by krips View Post
Here are 2 scenes from THOR - The Dark World. Also, let me know if you have any personal preference about any particular scene you want to see from any particular movie. But I hope this picture will answer your question about those black bars on XBR-55HX929

BTW, I've taken these pictures using Sony SLT-a77 and other than cropping and re-sizing from the raw format, no other processing have been done
Listen, they do look good for an LCD. The blacks do look a wee bit crushed. If my ZT60, ST60's & VT50 were stolen along with all the curtains in my house and my perception of natural motion... I would definitely buy a Sony FALD.
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post #92 of 310 Old 06-24-2014, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GardenVariety View Post
It's a thread about a guy who had such bad black levels (LCD) that he cut out cardboard to block the gray/blue letter boxes and then said "screw it" and bought a plasma. How could us "plasma guys" not comment?
Fairly accurate description, as long as the context is dark room viewing.
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post #93 of 310 Old 06-24-2014, 08:56 PM
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Price for the 55" was $4,000 and $5,500 for the 65" ,what do you think about the poor viewing angle and blooming that David mentioned also blacks that look a little bit blue? Is he right or wrong about that? Do you notice the halos that Audioholics describe? is he wrong or right?


You don't need to fight over this, you have a TV that is right at the level of plasma blacks with just very few minor issues.




Another review



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post #94 of 310 Old 06-24-2014, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
"Professional" calibration would be performed in what picture mode?
Your THX Optimization would be performed in which picture mode?
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post #95 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 03:20 AM
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Thread rolled back before the bickering and name-calling. Some legitimate posts may have been lost in the rollback. Discuss the topic and not each other. Further attacks will result in immediate loss of posting privileges in this thread.
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post #96 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by THX1720 View Post
Your THX Optimization would be performed in which picture mode?

THX Optimizer can be used in any scene mode to evaluate gray scale, black levels, white levels, colors. Good enough to tell you if you are in the ballpark with your settings.

The default scene mode is Cinema for the bluray input. The sub menu scene that I use is Cinema-1 subject to settings that I change.

Now to the basic question, is Cinema-1 the appropriate scene mode that should be used in a professional calibration? No way is my answer!
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post #97 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 10:35 AM
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It has been my experience that the darker I make my room the more prominent black bars are on the screen. A poster earlier claimed that seeing the black bars was caused by bad calibration. Well I calibrate my exceptional performing JVC projector and with all the light off I see the black bars, as faint as they are I see them. That is why I and others use masking. I would wager that any TV in a completely black non reflective room would show black bars. For me in my setup the masking really puts the image over the top and makes the image pop. And when I say a black room I mean completely covered in triple black velvet. Again great post Mark.

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post #98 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 10:46 AM
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Talking Anxious to try it out

Thanks Mark for sharing the creative and simple solution to a very annoying problem. Through the allignment of the stars and planets I was fortunate enough to win a Samsung UN55B7000 back in 2009 during a work raffle. I believe the TV retailed around $4000 at the time and was one of the first "ultra-thin" edge-lit LEDs. Praised for its suprior color and picture (at the time; I still remember watching Avatar for the first time...WOW). However, I was shocked to see so much blooming in the corners during letterbox movies, I could hardly find anything online explaining this phenomenon. Surely something that costs so much wouldn't have such a glaring picture defect? How could the brilliant scientists at Samsung overlook this? I mean, they can white balance hundreds of thousands of mass-produced TVs perfectly ...how could they miss this?

Well, the rest is history...and thankfully I didn't shell out $4000 of my own dollars for this TV (would have for a VT or Z series though!). However I'm very thankful for it and still enjoy it in my basement family room as my kids allow me to. That being said, as you and others have mentioned, once you see a flaw, you can't "unsee" it.

I'm currently waiting to see a new TV technology that complells me to spend my hard-earned cash now that plasma is vitually gone----but in the meantime this solution fixes several things for me personally:

1. Solves my blooming problem...duh!
2. Hides the hideous "Touch of Color" Samsung tried out...let's hope <100" curved screens disappear as quickly as this did.
3. Decreases the chance of my kids throwing something at the screen resulting in catostrophic failure by 33.3% (give or take)...yeah foam!
4. Allows me to dust off my hole punch that I've been dying to use for the past 18 months so my IR sensor will function properly.

Thanks again, Cheers!

ps - my wife wanted to sell the thing after I won it and use the proceeds towards a down payment on our first house. I "manned up" however, held my ground and we are still happily married and celebrating our 10 year anniversary this year. You can have both...but maybe I'm just an exception. BTW we bought the house anyway.

*I also had a friend who is ISF certified, calibrate the TV (replacing the "standard" mode). It did help a bit, but the blooming was still very much present...also, shockingly, it wasn't "perfectly" white balanced...waaaay to much blue.

Last edited by kernmyea; 06-25-2014 at 01:03 PM.
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post #99 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
If you are serious about your home theatre, you will NEVER use the room brightness screen adjustment sensor

So what if Imagic never watched 4:3 movies? You can't extrapolate that you can also make masking for 4:3 movies?
Actually, that depends. Some LCD/LED models do not have very good dark room performance. I find that using the ambient light sensor on the low setting on my bedroom TV in the dark gives me better black levels and thus better PQ than if off.

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post #100 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
You are correct, it is beyond you. Which is the reason why I will never let a "professional calibrator" touch my TV.

The concept that you guys prefer is calibrate your TV so that you require the use of a masking system to hide your calibration defects!
Those are defects with edge-lit LED TVs and has absolutely nothing to do with the calibration. All a professional calibrator will do is change the picture settings using measurement tools as a guideline. These are the same picture options that you have access to, and they will have no need to go into your service menu. You should probably stop now, because we are all laughing at you. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

CHALLENGE: Bust out your colorimeter and/or spectrophotometer and you will see that the factory did not properly calibrate your TV to REC 702 standards. I promise you this! Even the best TVs are off.

EDIT: REC 709 is what I meant, lol.
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post #101 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by cardoski View Post
It has been my experience that the darker I make my room the more prominent black bars are on the screen. A poster earlier claimed that seeing the black bars was caused by bad calibration. Well I calibrate my exceptional performing JVC projector and with all the light off I see the black bars, as faint as they are I see them. That is why I and others use masking. I would wager that any TV in a completely black non reflective room would show black bars. For me in my setup the masking really puts the image over the top and makes the image pop. And when I say a black room I mean completely covered in triple black velvet. Again great post Mark.

The subject is not about projectors, but LCD TVs.

The entire room in triple black velvet? Fireproof or firetrap?
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post #102 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by kernmyea View Post
[FONT=Arial]

*I also had a friend who is ISF certified, calibrate the TV (replacing the "standard" mode). It did help a bit, but the blooming was still very much present...also, shockingly, it wasn't "perfectly" white balanced...waaaay to much blue.

How was the white balance before it was calibrated by a "professional"? Just wondering.
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post #103 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Icon13 View Post
Actually, that depends. Some LCD/LED models do not have very good dark room performance. I find that using the ambient light sensor on the low setting on my bedroom TV in the dark gives me better black levels and thus better PQ than if off.
It's been over 30 years since I owned a TV that did not have an ambient room light sensor.

Yes, it makes a difference especially when you have a bright room during the day.
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post #104 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
The subject is not about projectors, but LCD TVs.

The entire room in triple black velvet? Fireproof or firetrap?

Actually the subject is masking and I am making the point that even the best display devices can use masking.

James Reid:D
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post #105 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Icon13 View Post
Those are defects with edge-lit LED TVs and has absolutely nothing to do with the calibration. All a professional calibrator will do is change the picture settings using measurement tools as a guideline. These are the same picture options that you have access to, and they will have no need to go into your service menu. You should probably stop now, because we are all laughing at you. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

Well, here is the LCD TV in question. The claim is that it is properly ISF calibrated.

I don't recall ever seeing a worse setup!

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post


Without masking, in a dark room, the letterbox bars are clearly visible and rather distracting



With masking, the letterbox bars are pitch black in a darkened room


[/I]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon13 View Post

CHALLENGE: Bust out your colorimeter and/or spectrophotometer and you will see that the factory did not properly calibrate your TV to REC 702 standards. I promise you this! Even the best TVs are off.

Which scene mode in a Sony 55-NX720 was designed to be calibrated to REC 702 standards?
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post #106 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 12:43 PM
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I don't have this issue with my Samsung F8000, but I had to read every post just to watch J_Palmer humiliate himself further and further, very "Tin Cup" like lol...
He brings new meaning to "special" AVS Member!
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post #107 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
Well, here is the LCD TV in question. The claim is that it is properly ISF calibrated.

I do<n't recall ever seeing a worse setup!


Which scene mode in a Sony 55-NX720 was designed to be calibrated to REC 702 standards?
You are incorrect.
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Last edited by imagic; 06-25-2014 at 01:19 PM.
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post #108 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
Which scene mode in a Sony 55-NX720 was designed to be calibrated to REC 702 standards?

None, because there is no such thing as REC 702.
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post #109 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 01:44 PM
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Why are people carpping on this idea?
THere is nothing better than a good cheap hack. If you can get the performance of a GREAT TV with a GOOD TV then more power to ya!!!
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post #110 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 01:52 PM
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None, because there is no such thing as REC 702.
LOL, meant 709.
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post #111 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
Well, here is the LCD TV in question. The claim is that it is properly ISF calibrated.

I don't recall ever seeing a worse setup!

Which scene mode in a Sony 55-NX720 was designed to be calibrated to REC 702 standards?
What is bad about his setup? The uneven brightness in the bars are due to the fact that his TV is edge lit and thus the LED lights are around the edges of the panel. Again, that has nothing to do with how he calibrated his TV. I am sure that his TV is calibrated just fine as Mark knows what he is doing.

And what I meant to say was REC 709, which is probably what Mark calibrated his TV to using a spectrophotometer. The scene mode for your Sony that would be closest to REC 709 would be movie/cinema or something to that effect. Of course, if you use that setting, you can bring the TV even closer to REC 709 than the settings the manufacturer preset by calibrating it. It's science. You might not get it.

Mark's hack is not supposed to be a band-aid for issues from a calibration, it is a band-aid for edge lit televisions. I think you missed that entirely.
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post #112 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by stickboy2k View Post
Why are people carpping on this idea?
THere is nothing better than a good cheap hack. If you can get the performance of a GREAT TV with a GOOD TV then more power to ya!!!

I like these type of stuff! I'm not handy but I still like reading about DIY stuff (well, especially the ones so simple even I can do it).

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post #113 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 02:15 PM
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I like these type of stuff! I'm not handy but I still like reading about DIY stuff (well, especially the ones so simple even I can do it).
Yeah, I learned a long time ago that if you are too picky you will never be happy.
I don't look for dead pixels, and if I see problems I just remind myself how much money the perfect alternative costs.

That being said, what would the world be like if these perfectionists were not around?
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post #114 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 02:19 PM
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What I would love to see would be a nice DIY Cheap-o Depot guide to bias lighting!

You have your mission, now GO!
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post #115 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by stickboy2k View Post
Yeah, I learned a long time ago that if you are too picky you will never be happy.
I don't look for dead pixels, and if I see problems I just remind myself how much money the perfect alternative costs.

That being said, what would the world be like if these perfectionists were not around?
Isn't this where we are? Hence the reason so many returned bum sets…

"You're well within tolerance levels" Or something along that statement.
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post #116 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stickboy2k View Post
What I would love to see would be a nice DIY Cheap-o Depot guide to bias lighting!

You have your mission, now GO!
That is a plan...
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post #117 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 02:49 PM
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Ditto Gandalf

DIY applause!

Not that I need this method, as my Samsung is not edge lit. However, if for some reason I ventured to incorporate masking to solve a situation I would indeed cause the lose of a feature I weight more heavily than sound, reflection, or PQ and that is caption/subtitles.

enclosing exif and pic in spoiler to not preoccupy ppl's display.

Spoiler!
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post #118 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickboy2k View Post
What I would love to see would be a nice DIY Cheap-o Depot guide to bias lighting!

You have your mission, now GO!
I use white LED strips from IKEA.

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post #119 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 03:33 PM
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What is the difference between Plasma and LCD how a camera see's the picture? As I get this effect no matter what shutter speed like Woobieizer's shot. Even if the shutter speed matches up with the frame rate/Hz.

There's this strange rainbow pattern over the TV through the lens. Yet shoot a Plasma and it's pristine. Or is this the angle effect with LCD? Yet I still get it centralised with LCD.


Woobieizer, out of curiosity… is it your camera or is your TV not awfully sharp? I can't tell if it's the camera or TV and the Tungsten temperature.
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post #120 of 310 Old 06-25-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Woobieizer View Post
DIY applause!

Not that I need this method, as my Samsung is not edge lit. However, if for some reason I ventured to incorporate masking to solve a situation I would indeed cause the lose of a feature I weight more heavily than sound, reflection, or PQ and that is caption/subtitles.

enclosing exif and pic in spoiler to not preoccupy ppl's display.

Spoiler!
I am very much against subtitles. That little white stuff down under is ruining the visual experience a picture gives. If you like those subtitles that much you might as well read a book (A BOOK ) instead of watching a movie.
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