Please help me pick between these 2 4K TV's -Samsung UN65HU8550 Vs Sony XBR65X850B - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 128 Old 07-21-2014, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
Yeah the samsungs will be upgradeable. But they are food now. I also wanted the sony first because I read some pretty misleading info in these forums. But I ended up with the 65 hu9000.



Ig has inky blacks, super color and the 3d image looks better than a standard bluray image.



You should just do whats best for you.



In the end when your samsung has the 4k standards and the 2014 sony buyers dont you will see a huge difference in the owners forums for those sets.



The samaung owners will be talking about how glad they are they were able to upgrade to the 2015 or 2016 one connect box.



The sony B series owners will soubd much like the A owners do now. Owners figuring out work arounds to get just 2014 standards working.



I am not crazy. I know has a wonderful picture. So does the samsung. But the sansung has better 3d.



Why eve buy a tv at all if you dont buy a 4k. Just wait 2 or 3 years to buy a tv. 1080p is outdated. Movies have been filmed in 4k for years. Many just standard cell phone cameras are doing 4k now.



Pictures from cell phones etc. 4k.



Dont be fooled. If you buy a 1080p set this year you will want a new 4k set in 2 to 3 years.

Unless the Samsungs have a 10 bit panel, which nobody knows for sure, these TVs are already obsolete because they won't be able to display the Rec2020 color gamut. I don't think the one connect box can upgrade the panel.
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post #62 of 128 Old 07-21-2014, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by JayBizniss View Post
Unless the Samsungs have a 10 bit panel, which nobody knows for sure, these TVs are already obsolete because they won't be able to display the Rec2020 color gamut. I don't think the one connect box can upgrade the panel.
Well that doesnt help the person who is asking which to buy. I missed the point also. But he has decided to adopt early. Many of us have. Many more will follow. Thsts why I pointed out the samsung brand if you do choose a 4k tv then you should at minimum buy a sammy. At least it will be COMPATIBLE with the 4k standard recs.
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post #63 of 128 Old 07-21-2014, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JayBizniss View Post
Unless the Samsungs have a 10 bit panel, which nobody knows for sure, these TVs are already obsolete because they won't be able to display the Rec2020 color gamut. I don't think the one connect box can upgrade the panel.
You may have a different definition of obsolete than others. Just because 10-bit panels have a wider color gamut doesn't mean Hollywood is about to be releasing a lot of content that uses it any time soon. And for many, that's the basis on which they'd judge the obsolesce of their set.
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post #64 of 128 Old 07-21-2014, 06:57 AM
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Off-topic a bit since this started about the 65", but HD Guru is claiming unnamed sources have told them the 85" 8550 is FALD (unlike all the smaller panels in the model line). That would put it in competition with the 84" 950B but at less than 40% the price (and about 25% the price of last year's Samsung FALD). Seems unlikely but I'll be curious to wait for anyone to definitively debunk it.
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post #65 of 128 Old 07-22-2014, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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That is really interesting. I do believe that the 3D is better on the samsung in terms of output capability as it can do 3D 4K per the manual ( samsung conveniently forgot to call me back because they did not know how to answer any of these questions)

I realize 3D is hardly a deciding factor for most people but Im one of those people that loves the technologies!
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post #66 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Citivas View Post
Off-topic a bit since this started about the 65", but HD Guru is claiming unnamed sources have told them the 85" 8550 is FALD (unlike all the smaller panels in the model line). That would put it in competition with the 84" 950B but at less than 40% the price (and about 25% the price of last year's Samsung FALD). Seems unlikely but I'll be curious to wait for anyone to definitively debunk it.
This is likely true, because Samsung wants the set to have superior uniformity. If it were edge lit it would near impossible to have a uniform screens the logistics alone of service call and returns due to uniformity would be cost prohibitive.
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post #67 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JayBizniss View Post
Unless the Samsungs have a 10 bit panel, which nobody knows for sure, these TVs are already obsolete because they won't be able to display the Rec2020 color gamut. I don't think the one connect box can upgrade the panel.
And when do you really think Rec2020 will be mainstream? You better not buy anything for several years.
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post #68 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 07:09 AM
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And when do you really think Rec2020 will be mainstream? You better not buy anything for several years.

Nobody has a clue.. Could be as soon as CES 2015.
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post #69 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 07:15 AM
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This is likely true, because Samsung wants the set to have superior uniformity. If it were edge lit it would near impossible to have a uniform screens the logistics alone of service call and returns due to uniformity would be cost prohibitive.
The only problem, besides the fact that the price makes it unlikely to be FALD, is Samsung's own terminology. They are not using their FALD terminology in describing the 85" 8550. Rather they are describing the dimming just like they do the other panels in the 8550 line.

I'm just not believing this is a FALD as much as I'd love to.
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post #70 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 07:21 AM
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Nobody has a clue.. Could be as soon as CES 2015.
As we all know, CES often has nothing to do with when products appear in the marketplace. More than likely, you've got a long wait. Besides, even with Rec2020, there will almost certainly be a way for Rec709 displays to remap the Rec2020 color points to 709.

So obsolete? I strongly doubt that. But if you feel safer, wait a few years, but many others won't and will be enjoying their displays in the intervening years.
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post #71 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 07:50 AM
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The only problem, besides the fact that the price makes it unlikely to be FALD, is Samsung's own terminology. They are not using their FALD terminology in describing the 85" 8550. Rather they are describing the dimming just like they do the other panels in the 8550 line.

I'm just not believing this is a FALD as much as I'd love to.
Where are they singling out their terminology for the 85" panel from the rest of the line? Their website and brochures have the same generic specs other than dimensions for all their units. By that measure, the Vizio 80" M-series should be FALD but Vizio's website doesn't match the reality that they re-purposed their 2013 panel for the 80: instead.

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone the 85" Samsung is FALD (and having seen it in person I am not convinced), just saying marketing department materials wouldn't really be a judge. I can't recall a year where Samsung's website perfectly reflected the reality of their products. Also, it would be pretty odd for the HD Guru calibrator to have been fooled or confused by the Samsung marketing-speak as from their reviews its clear they understand what terms Samsung throws around for its edge-lit local dimming. If the rumor is false (as is likely), it would have to be someone at Samsung unequivocally misinforming them, possibly because they themselves are confused about it.
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post #72 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 07:53 AM
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As we all know, CES often has nothing to do with when products appear in the marketplace. More than likely, you've got a long wait. Besides, even with Rec2020, there will almost certainly be a way for Rec709 displays to remap the Rec2020 color points to 709.

So obsolete? I strongly doubt that. But if you feel safer, wait a few years, but many others won't and will be enjoying their displays in the intervening years.
This.

Even if they announce a final spec and companies announce products for it by CES 2015, that doesn't mean it's "mainstream" yet. It won't be mainstream until you can go to Walmart and find a selection of content mastered in the new standard available for purchase, or similarly get a reasonable selection of current studio content online through non-propritary sites (i.e. the Sony and Samsung media players don't count -- that's not mainstream).
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post #73 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 08:11 AM
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... it would have to be someone at Samsung unequivocally misinforming them, possibly because they themselves are confused about it.
That made me laugh and cry at the same time.

[]s,
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post #74 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 08:20 AM
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Where are they singling out their terminology for the 85" panel from the rest of the line? Their website and brochures have the same generic specs other than dimensions for all their units. By that measure, the Vizio 80" M-series should be FALD but Vizio's website doesn't match the reality that they re-purposed their 2013 panel for the 80: instead.

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone the 85" Samsung is FALD (and having seen it in person I am not convinced), just saying marketing department materials wouldn't really be a judge. I can't recall a year where Samsung's website perfectly reflected the reality of their products. Also, it would be pretty odd for the HD Guru calibrator to have been fooled or confused by the Samsung marketing-speak as from their reviews its clear they understand what terms Samsung throws around for its edge-lit local dimming. If the rumor is false (as is likely), it would have to be someone at Samsung unequivocally misinforming them, possibly because they themselves are confused about it.
It could in fact be full array, with their UHD dimming (software). Sharp employs full array on their 90" which I believe has no local dimming.
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post #75 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 08:49 AM
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It could in fact be full array, with their UHD dimming (software). Sharp employs full array on their 90" which I believe has no local dimming.
Yes but the MSRP on that Sharp was 10,999.00 and it is 1080p without local dimming. Add 4x the pixels and local dimming for 9999.99 and don't even advertise any differences between it and the smaller versions? Just doesn't make any sense. I can buy that it is Direct Lit but they don't advertise that because they don't want to admit to how few zones it is but FALD? Not at that price point (yet).

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Does anybody know for sure if a TV that currently takes an 8bit 60hz UHD signal will play the 10 bit signal in the future? Or are we guessing?

An example would be the Sony XBR-65X850B. It claims HDMI 2.0 but only says it will play 3840x2160/60p (YCbCr4:2:0 8bit) on their site.

I can't understand if this is a panel issue, an input issue or a firmware issue. I would assume this is across all manufacturers.
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post #77 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 09:03 AM
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Yes but the MSRP on that Sharp was 10,999.00 and it is 1080p without local dimming. Add 4x the pixels and local dimming for 9999.99 and don't even advertise any differences between it and the smaller versions? Just doesn't make any sense. I can buy that it is Direct Lit but they don't advertise that because they don't want to admit to how few zones it is but FALD? Not at that price point (yet).
JVC has announced (though since it's not shown up yet now knows if it is phantom-ware) a $7.999 MSPR 85" 64 zoneFALD set this year. For all we know, they could be the same physical panel (if it really exists).
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post #78 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 09:10 AM
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JVC has announced (though since it's not shown up yet now knows if it is phantom-ware) a $7.999 MSPR 85" 64 zoneFALD set this year. For all we know, they could be the same physical panel (if it really exists).
That's where the terminology just bugs me. 64 zones across an 85" 4k screen in not FALD and is kind of a joke to call it that but I get it is marketing; That is Direct Lit I know I am harping on this but there is a distinction. Worth noting that Sharp FALD has 500 zones across a 90" 1080p screen.

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post #79 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 09:13 AM
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Just a small note to add. I noticed some people were saying the Sony was not as bright. Make sure you go into settings and turn off the light dimming setting. Its is a setting that adjust the tv to room ambient light. In the store I noticed it was not working like it should and when I turned it off it the TV was just as bright as the Samsung.

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post #80 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 09:27 AM
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That's where the terminology just bugs me. 64 zones across an 85" 4k screen in not FALD and is kind of a joke to call it that but I get it is marketing; That is Direct Lit I know I am harping on this but there is a distinction. Worth noting that Sharp FALD has 500 zones across a 90" 1080p screen.
If that is your main objection, then we're arguing semantics. Right or wrong (and I am certainly not arguing with you about it), most brands promoting new "FALD" sets this year has less than 100 zones. FALD is being used, and accepted as terminology, for sets with 16 zones, 32 zones, etc. I get that you may be a purist and say that's not true FALD. But the word has been appropriated by the marketers and the use has been adopted by the masses (or at least the AV enthusiast masses) and now is more or less synonymous with any degree of direct backlighting with multiple zones of local dimming.

BTW, are you saying the current version of the Sharp 90" (the 90LE657U) has 500 local dimming FALD zones? I thought they discontinued the FALD version a few years ago and that the current version was Full Array but not Local Dimming.
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post #81 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 10:01 AM
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If that is your main objection, then we're arguing semantics. Right or wrong (and I am certainly not arguing with you about it), most brands promoting new "FALD" sets this year has less than 100 zones. FALD is being used, and accepted as terminology, for sets with 16 zones, 32 zones, etc. I get that you may be a purist and say that's not true FALD. But the word has been appropriated by the marketers and the use has been adopted by the masses (or at least the AV enthusiast masses) and now is more or less synonymous with any degree of direct backlighting with multiple zones of local dimming.

BTW, are you saying the current version of the Sharp 90" (the 90LE657U) has 500 local dimming FALD zones? I thought they discontinued the FALD version a few years ago and that the current version was Full Array but not Local Dimming.
Sorry I misspoke, can't keep up with all these threads. The Sharp has over 500 LEDs in there, not zones. We don't know how many LEDs might make up a zone. FALD may be accepted marketing terms for direct lit but it isn't correct. Semantics.

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post #82 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 11:13 AM
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Sorry I misspoke, can't keep up with all these threads. The Sharp has over 500 LEDs in there, not zones. We don't know how many LEDs might make up a zone. FALD may be accepted marketing terms for direct lit but it isn't correct. Semantics.
Semantics, you can't live with them and you can't live without them. Right Clown?
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post #83 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 02:08 PM
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You need to go to this post:UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy

Scott & Mike do another outstanding job on the question of buying 4K now.
I wouldn't buy a 4K now,but if you must, make sure it has a 10 bit panel.
Some Sharp panels are 10 bit, also other makers,but you have to check!

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post #84 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 02:13 PM
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You need to go to this post:UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy

Scott & Mike do another outstanding job on the question of buying 4K now.
I wouldn't buy a 4K now,but if you must, make sure it has a 10 bit panel.
Some Sharp panels are 10 bit, also other makers,but you have to check!
He bought a Sony 4k days ago.
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post #85 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 02:32 PM
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The funny thing is, nobody knows what effect having a current 10 bit panel really means in practical terms.

Yet so many are tripping over themselves to see if their display is 10 bit.
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post #86 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 02:51 PM
 
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I wouldn't buy a 4K now,but if you must, make sure it has a 10 bit panel.
Some Sharp panels are 10 bit, also other makers,but you have to check!
This was somewhat part of my line of questioning above. How do you know if it's a 10bit panel? I had been shopping, and called Sony several times to find out if the TV I listed has a 10 bit panel, and they can't or won't say.

I assumed if the panel was 10 bit then the input issues could be resolved. So how are you finding out the specs on the panels?
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post #87 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 04:21 PM
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The funny thing is, nobody knows what effect having a current 10 bit panel really means in practical terms.

Yet so many are tripping over themselves to see if their display is 10 bit.
Ten Bit Panel has been on many of the high end Sony panels for at least 5 years, Sharp has had some also and it can make a difference as it quadruples the shades of gray(steps) = better details and takes colors from millions to billions. This has been proven dozens of times over the past 5 years or so as it gets brought back up every few months over and over. I lost my research but it was done by professionals in the projector and HT experts.

The primary problem is folks will confuse the Ten Bit Panel with it's Processing rate - often the processing power exceeds Ten Bit.

Also, Rec2020 is not a mandatory piece of 4K but a goal to be attained in the future which is why I believe many manufacturers are expanding Color Gamut so it better approaches Rec2020 while we wait for Ten bit Color - the problem is members constantly confuse these terms with one another.

Sharp 70UD27 will increase color by 21% using Spectros Tech and my guess to get it closer to Rec2020 standard attainment but I believe it requires 10-12 bit COLOR to fully attain that goal. If we lack 10 Bit Color source the this makes it possible.

A clue to Ten Bit is that if the specs list Billions of Colors your likely viewing a Ten Bit panel as 8 Bit cannot deliver it.

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post #88 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 04:31 PM
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They don't know what 10-bit does?

Well, nothing an example (or two) can't help:

10-bit disabled:


10-bit enabled:

[]s,
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post #89 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Magicmirror3 View Post
I assumed if the panel was 10 bit then the input issues could be resolved. So how are you finding out the specs on the panels?
Not a safe assumption. If the set maker supplied a board and ship that can't handle HDMI 2.0 full-bandwidth, there will be no easy fix even if the underlying panel is 10-bit. Some of the manufactures have been using 10-bit panels for a while even though the chips and software could only handle 8-bit. The current 4K sets without the proper chips are no different. The SOny for example uses an HDMI 2.0 chip that will only deliver 4:2:0, not 4:4:4. And since they don't have any equivalent to the Samsung One Connect box for hardware upgradability, there's no reason to believe they will ever support 4:4:4 with this year's sets. By the time it matters, they will be at least one and probably several model years down the line.

There's really no point in finding out if your panel is 8 or 10 bit without also finding out which HDMI 2.0 chipset it used. If the HDMI input supports HDCP 2.2, it does NOT support 4:4:4, this year. By next year I'm sure they all will do both. Some sets have used both chips to solve this, with specific HDMI inputs either doing 4:4:4 or HDCP 2.2 but not both in the same one.
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post #90 of 128 Old 07-23-2014, 04:57 PM
 
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Thank you for that explanation. Indeed, I finally understand what is the limitation and why the external connection box Samsung is touting has some value.
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