Is there a consensus on how 4k will be implemented into consumer tvs? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 07-21-2014, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there a consensus on how 4k will be implemented into consumer tvs?

Maybe Im just not up to speed with it, but theres seems to be some confusion/speculation on how 4k will be implemented(meaning how it will be transmitted to the tv via a new hdmi port, what players will be available, etc.)

The worry is, you spend a large amount of money on a large 4k tv, then as 4k progesses, your tv is basically obsolete as it doesnt have the right connections to utilize whatever hardware is chosen as the provider of 4k content.

Is this a real threat or am I just not educated on how this new tech is advancing, who the leaders are on this, etc.

thanks
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post #2 of 18 Old 07-21-2014, 10:28 AM
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4k is already available, to a limited extent, within the current HDMI 1.4 protocols. It will get better once 10-bit panels and beyond are commonplace and all devices (tv's, STB's, blu-ray players, etc) have the upcoming HDMI 2.0 chipsets. Some tv's are already upconverting to 4k and the reports are that it looks very good.
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post #3 of 18 Old 07-21-2014, 10:32 AM
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It's a real threat. It's not clear yet which source for 4k video, if any, will be able to deliver a variety of cheap programming to homes.

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post #4 of 18 Old 07-21-2014, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
4k is already available, to a limited extent, within the current HDMI 1.4 protocols. It will get better once 10-bit panels and beyond are commonplace and all devices (tv's, STB's, blu-ray players, etc) have the upcoming HDMI 2.0 chipsets. Some tv's are already upconverting to 4k and the reports are that it looks very good.
I do understand there is upconverting already, but in progressing from the blu ray players, to a 4k player, i was wondering if its set in stone that the HDMI 2.0 is THE method of transfer

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post #5 of 18 Old 07-21-2014, 12:39 PM
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HDMI 1.4 chipsets are limited to 10.4 Gbps bandwidth max. To fully utilize the resolutions offered, and other benefits, HDMI 2.0 has a maximum bandwidth of 18.2 Gbps. Actually, a DisplayPort connection would theoretically offer more but the industry seems to be stuck with HDMI. There's even discussions of HDMI 3.0 but I don't know how valid those are. Delivering 4k to homes is going to be a challenge because of the bandwidth necessary. Someone will have to pay and guess who that is going to be?
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post #6 of 18 Old 07-21-2014, 03:54 PM
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While the components are here much are in the infancy period.

HDMI 2.0 @60fps

HDCP 2.2 (Copy Protection Encryption - in it's Infancy)

HEVC H.265 (Over one billion devices shipped with it past year - ISP's, Broadcasters love it but Royalty issues are to be resolved but HEVC offers bandwidth efficiency gains between 30 to 50 percent compared to MPEG-4/H.264.This will be the bandwidth highway for all devices)

Rec 2020 10-12 bit color (Not mandatory but a Goal to be reached-surpassing Rec 709)

There should be big news announced at IFA in Sept and CES in January that will demo strong growth. Japan has a full-time UHD TV Channel. Korea has the strongest bandwidth globally and home to Samsung/LG and HEVC H.265 will explode across all platforms from tablets, smartphones, and of course TV's.

4K is likely to bloom way faster than HD ever did. There's gold in them there 4K Hills.
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post #7 of 18 Old 07-21-2014, 04:47 PM
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post #8 of 18 Old 07-22-2014, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
It's a real threat. It's not clear yet which source for 4k video, if any, will be able to deliver a variety of cheap programming to homes.
My U-Verse Internet is 6 mbps and $46 per month and is barely fast enough to stream video as it is so even if they have the capability to deliver the speeds required for 4K, i bet it would be prohibitively expensive and still would have limited content.

My TWC cable company is already compressing the 720p and 1080i signal and keeps adding channels so it's extremely unlikely they'll broadcast in 4K anytime in the next several years.

AT&T U-Verse here seems to have even less bandwidth - my next door neighbor can only get two HD streams to his house even though the VRAD is in front of his house, and his signal is even more compressed than mine is and the same channels look a lot worse than my cable does so it's extremely unlikely they'll broadcast in 4K anytime in the next several years.

My friends in high places at DirecTV's satellite engineering divisions and hardware engineering divisions said don't count on DirecTV ever upgrading to 4K.

I just don't get the hype.


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post #9 of 18 Old 07-22-2014, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post
My friends in high places at DirecTV's satellite engineering divisions and hardware engineering divisions said don't count on DirecTV ever upgrading to 4K.

I just don't get the hype.


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If you saw good 4K, you'd understand the 'hype'. It's not 'hype'.

As for your friend, I'm not sure how connected he is, but everything I've read said that DirecTV is planning for a 4K channel in the not too-distant future. In fact, testing is underway.
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post #10 of 18 Old 07-22-2014, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
If you saw good 4K, you'd understand the 'hype'. It's not 'hype'.

As for your friend, I'm not sure how connected he is, but everything I've read said that DirecTV is planning for a 4K channel in the not too-distant future. In fact, testing is underway.
I get the hype, I just don't know how it's going to be driven to the consumer. Driven meaning cable, internet, and a 4k blu ray player with a consistent hdmi type connection
For now, it's basically dependent on up conversion and a small sample of 4k content

I do agree with a poster above saying it will come to light faster than hd did, but it would be a shame if there are products out now that ultimately, won't work with the hardware that is used
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post #11 of 18 Old 07-22-2014, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post
I get the hype, I just don't know how it's going to be driven to the consumer. Driven meaning cable, internet, and a 4k blu ray player with a consistent hdmi type connection
For now, it's basically dependent on up conversion and a small sample of 4k content

I do agree with a poster above saying it will come to light faster than hd did, but it would be a shame if there are products out now that ultimately, won't work with the hardware that is used
I hate to be a Negative Nancy. But I have real doubts it will come to light faster than HD. The move to HD was not market driven, it was a mandate by the government that broadcasters had to be off analogue by a certain date. That is what mainly opened the doors to HD digital transmissions. That and along with the new larger LCD sets that enabled people to do away with their outrageously heavy (and small) CRT sets.

Another thing is that the jump from HD to UHD is perceptually smaller than the jump from SD to HD. Even then, many still watch SD on their HD sets and seem fine with it.

There is also the problem that the bet on Blu Ray content was largely a failure for what manufacturers like Sony had to invest in it. Up until recently, DVD still outsold Blu Ray discs. Any push to UHD disks might be a very small and niche market. And even then, Studios would have to make the film transfer to UHD.

Streaming seems to be the way of the future but that still leaves the problem of adequate compression. You would blow through your data caps with your ISP very quickly trying to stream two hour 4K films.

Now that doesn't mean any of these problems are insurmountable. We may very well make a full transition to 4K but I believe these problems will cause the transition to take considerably longer than going from SD to HD.

I think the saving grace for 4K is the TV tech's upconversion abilities. If you can get 80% of the way there then that should be good enough for human perception. It also removes a lot of the obstacles that will slow the progress considerably.
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post #12 of 18 Old 07-22-2014, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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We need google fiber, nationwide
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post #13 of 18 Old 07-22-2014, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post

I do agree with a poster above saying it will come to light faster than hd did, but it would be a shame if there are products out now that ultimately, won't work with the hardware that is used
It all depends on how you define "4k" and "work". Television mfrs are taking advantage of the fact that the hype of 4k is dazzling a lot of consumers who don't know, or pay attention, to what is actually meant by those terms, unlike those of us anal AVS'rs. 4k and UHD are technically different terms but visually they are probably indistinguishable. HDMI 2.0 currently means different things depending on what's being implemented. It's still not clear, how HDMI 2.0 the current release of HDMI 2.0 devices are. Mfrs seem to be very reluctant to list the specs that their current hardware supports. My guess is to pull in the early adopters (of which there is nothing wrong with that if you understand what you're getting) and the bulk of the consumers who are buying the hype. There are probably aspects of HDMI 2.0 that will never see the consumer level for a couple of years to come. Display Port and MHL are other aspect of the new connectivity that a lot of people aren't aware of so it's almost impossible to buy a 4k whatever now and feel confident that 3 years down the road you will still be relatively current with what's available for viewing.
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post #14 of 18 Old 07-22-2014, 09:35 AM
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We need google fiber, nationwide
So that Google can become even more intrusive on your privacy?
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post #15 of 18 Old 07-22-2014, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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So that Google can become even more intrusive on your privacy?
I'll trade some privacy for 4k content and some $$$$ savings

For now, I view 4k tvs as 65+ screens that can deliver hd content, without it looking like you are watching tv through a screen
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post #16 of 18 Old 07-22-2014, 10:39 AM
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You must sit awful close then I've never experienced the screen door effect, but that's 8-9' away.
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post #17 of 18 Old 07-22-2014, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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You must sit awful close then I've never experienced the screen door effect, but that's 8-9' away.
Do you have a 70-80 inch tv?
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post #18 of 18 Old 07-22-2014, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post
My friends in high places at DirecTV's satellite engineering divisions and hardware engineering divisions said don't count on DirecTV ever upgrading to 4K.
I'm not counting on 4k from DirecTV soon, but all the same, it could happen. In the dbstalk forum, it's been pointed out that it might be possible to get 4k from DirecTV to Samsung Smart TVs over the network, so that HDMI would not be involved, and that in a recent FCC filing, DirecTV has cited UHD as a possible use for a 400MHz frequency band it intends to deploy. http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/212552-...8#entry3266627

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