Full Array Local Dimming: It's All About the Zones - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Eternitay thanks for the like on my post but you didn't get my point,the point is that even with all the effort and money that they put on that toshiba and lg they failed.


They couldn't avoid blooming ,halos, crushed blacks,Inconsistent black levels.
Sharp with 400 zones and superb processing pretty much avoided haloing and blooming and had excellent blacks and shadow detail on the now defunct (and granted not cheap) 70" Elite. It IS possible to emulate .
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post #32 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 02:55 PM
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At 288 zones, Sharp Elite still produces a lot of halo. At the very least 1152 zones to make the halo tolerable (4608 zones for UHD)

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post #33 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 02:58 PM
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hey easy don't over react people ,I was talking about those 2 particular TVs.That was a lot of effort and money but unfortunately issues were still present.

I think that the nano idea was to fix halos and blooming but it introduced bad crushed blacks.


I don't know if they want to continue trying with different methods. that will be great !!!

is up to sharp elite if they want to share all the work that they put on sharp elite.


EDIT: If david said that halos were still present on sharp elite, then I don't know what should we expect.....I think that we should let oled grow and support oled.


LCD still make a great picture under controlled light environment.


bias light can do wonders.
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post #34 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
At 288 zones, Sharp Elite still produces a lot of halo. At the very least 1152 zones to make the halo tolerable (4608 zones for UHD)
I have a 70" Elite, and haloing is virtually non-existing. One of the reasons for this is that they never turn the backlight off for black level, unlike everybody else.

I also have an LG 55LE8500 and that has noticeable haloing, as well as banding.

Maybe I'm just not as sensitive as you ... o maybe your Elite does exhibit haloing. As always, YMMV ...
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post #35 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 03:47 PM
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Plasma colors/ blacks, picture reminds me of paint, LED colors/ blacks, picture reminds me of a digital photo. Whatever blacks a ideal LED is able to produce it won't be anything like Plasma blacks. There will Always be the LED look (not by definition a bad thing), off axis degredation of picture and uniformity issues.
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post #36 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
hey easy don't over react people ,I was talking about those 2 particular TVs.That was a lot of effort and money but unfortunately issues were still present.

I think that the nano idea was to fix halos and blooming but it introduced bad crushed blacks.


I don't know if they want to continue trying with different methods. that will be great !!!

is up to sharp elite if they want to share all the work that they put on sharp elite.


EDIT: If david said that halos were still present on sharp elite, then I don't know what should we expect.....I think that we should let oled grow and support oled.


LCD still make a great picture under controlled light environment.


bias light can do wonders.
I share RF13's sentiments, just because companies have tried before and met with limited success doesn't mean it can't be done and won't be done by others who build upon their foundations. I think others will continue trying new methods, and I agree with you that this is a great thing.

Say what you will about the sharp elite, but many praised what it achieved which to me shows potential in the technology. Of course you can't please everyone, which is why competition and consumer choice is such a good thing. No matter how good OLED is, we need differing technologies continually attempting to beat it and well done FALD is one option that appears worth pursuing.

I still like your videos, especially the Toshiba demo, no matter what your intent in posting happened to be.

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post #37 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 04:20 PM
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YMMV indeed. As I'm used to Elite Kuro (I used to have 3 at one moment), even the slightest halo is noticeable to me. So after living with almost a year with Magenta tinge and halo, I sold my 70" Sharp Elite.

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post #38 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
At 288 zones, Sharp Elite still produces a lot of halo. At the very least 1152 zones to make the halo tolerable (4608 zones for UHD)
It does not stand to reason that UHD would require any more zones for FALD to be implemented well than for 1080p. It's already been debated elsewhere how noticeable the difference really is from standard viewing distances anyways between the two resolutions, so I very much doubt a 1080p tv with 1000 LDZs that gave a great picture would suddenly show noticeable bloom at UHD resolution. I do agree with your statement that 4 digit zones would be a good goal for the technology, and my belief is that advancing LED technology could make that feasible in the near future where it would have been cost prohibitive up to now.
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post #39 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 04:27 PM
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Having owned an LG 55LE8500 (LCD/LED with true local dimming) there seems to be more to it that just the number of local dimming zones.

On static images the display was stunning with black and shadow detail excellent.

However scenes with panning (horizontal or vertical) showed horrific banding - eventually I persuaded LG to give me a refund which I used to buy a Panasonic Plasma 55VT30

The 55VT30 looks great with no artifacts - meaning I can just watch TV and enjoy it.

The 55LE8500 also looked great (maybe just as good on static images) but the occasional banding meant I was always looking for it which drove me crazy.

I was to upgrade I would definitely be looking at emissive display technologies first. FALD seems to be a way to try to make LCDs look better - but everything implementation I have seen has suffered from some compromise that isn't needed with the emissive displays.
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post #40 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagenstein View Post
Given the transmissive nature of LCD tech, regardless of the light source (I'm thinking back to CCFL days), I've never quite understood why a an extra LCD layer couldn't be sandwhiched between the the primary RGB lcd layers and the light source to serve as sort of a luminance channel. In the abscence of any sort of local dimming, black is simply the LCD panels' blocking of the light source (LEDs these days) to the best of its ability. And of course the brighter the light source, the more likely some of that light is going to slip through. So why not block more of it? Just as putting two pairs of sunglasses on, one over the other, will make things look even darker (and get you some odd looks), seems better blacks could be achieved with LCD tech by having an extra panel (or 2?) specifically between the light source and main panels. They could be 1/10th the resolution of the main panels and *still* have more "zones" than any of the local dimming solutions I've seen to date. Maybe it's not as simple as I'd like to think, or the fear of adding another 1/2" to the thickness of the display sticks the manufacturers' collective craw or something. What am I missing with this concept?

It has apparently been tried (by Sharp or Panasonic). It supposedly worked well except that light throughput was horrible, meaning it would consume a great deal of power and would be prohibitively expensive both because of the second layer of LCD as well as all f the additional LEDs...
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post #41 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 04:34 PM
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But what is "standard viewing distance" anyway? For my bedroom I use a 70" viewed from 16ft away. For my living room, I use 55" from 8ft away. For my HT, I use 96" from 9ft away. My parents use a 46" from 6ft and a 20" from 10ft. Yet my brother uses a 42" viewed from 4ft. At least for my family, there is no "standard viewing distance". As for all of my clients, none of them view their 55" (the smallest size my clients use) from 8ft away at the most (usually 6-7' for the 55" screens).

PS: The resolution chart that is popular with various AV forums have been disputed by ALL owners of 4K displays two of which are my clients who are a professor of opthalmology and an ophtalmologist.

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post #42 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
But what is "standard viewing distance" anyway? For my bedroom I use a 70" viewed from 16ft away. For my living room, I use 55" from 8ft away. For my HT, I use 96" from 9ft away. My parents use a 46" from 6ft and a 20" from 10ft. Yet my brother uses a 42" viewed from 4ft. At least for my family, there is no "standard viewing distance". As for all of my clients, none of them view their 55" (the smallest size my clients use) from 8ft away at the most (usually 6-7' for the 55" screens).

PS: The resolution chart that is popular with various AV forums have been disputed by ALL owners of 4K displays two of which are my clients who are a professor of opthalmology and an ophtalmologist.
Talk about YMMV, my 70" Elite is 8.5 feet away .
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post #43 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 04:40 PM
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You are soooooo in need for a UHD TV my friend!
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post #44 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 04:42 PM
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Just sad that for the best picture quality AND value you still can't beat plasma, yet they have stopped making them.

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post #45 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
But what is "standard viewing distance" anyway?
I guess "distance" should be plural but I'd imagine a range which encompasses the overwhelming majority (certainly not all) of viewing positions relative to screen size would be a good starting point for a definition.

Quote:
PS: The resolution chart that is popular with various AV forums have been disputed by ALL owners of 4K displays two of which are my clients who are a professor of opthalmology and an ophtalmologist.
"ALL?" Really? I bet there are at least one or two 4K display owners out there who have never even heard of that chart.. But i digress.
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post #46 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 04:58 PM
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we are missing something important (viewing preference) some people like to watch in light controlled room or bright rooms others prefer dark room.

I prefer dark environment because it give the best experience with dark movies ,so under this dark environment black levels are very important , the lower the MLL the better the experience.


so bring oled

Im very satisfied with the deep blacks that my plasma produce for now I'll keep my tv and wait till Oled mature and they produce better panels,by that time they probably hit on my budget.
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post #47 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 05:05 PM
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You are soooooo in need for a UHD TV my friend!
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post #48 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
we are missing something important (viewing preference) some people like to watch in light controlled room or bright rooms others prefer dark room.

I prefer dark environment because it give the best experience with dark movies ,so under this dark environment black levels are very important , the lower the MLL the better the experience.
Some people predominantly watch in one environment or the other, but most, myself included, probably require displays that handle both. Samsung's F8500 was praised for it's peak brightness from a plasma, and performed well in bright rooms where many other plasma displays have fallen short, which was terrific to see and made it the choice of several who probably would have bought an LCD otherwise.

Now LCD makers are trying to do something similar and bring the technology into the dark where normally it has not performed the best. This is a good thing, and if they can achieve something similar (yet quite opposite) to what Samsung achieved with plasma then the consumer wins, IMHO.
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post #49 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 05:30 PM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternitay View Post
I guess "distance" should be plural but I'd imagine a range which encompasses the overwhelming majority (certainly not all) of viewing positions relative to screen size would be a good starting point for a definition.



"ALL?" Really? I bet there are at least one or two 4K display owners out there who have never even heard of that chart.. But i digress.
Eternitay, literally from my personal experience of having calibrated 4,200+ systems in the past 20 years, there is no pipular seating distance. Seating ratio, however, tend to be about screen diagonal size, divided by 10, change the value from " to ' (not convert) and add 1.5'

For example, a 75" will be viewed from 7.5' + 1.5' = 10' away.
55" from 7' away.

At least that's the ratio I find from my personal experience.

As for the 4K owners who dispute the chart, well obviously without the need to specify, are the 4K owners who have had looked at the chart. And when I wrote ALL, as if I need to clarify, are all the 4K owners that I know of. Obviously if I don't know of yhe persosn's existence, I wouldn't know what type of display they're using and their view / opinion of the chart.

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post #50 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 05:33 PM
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Now we are off topic what 4k have to do with blacks?


well guys later...

Last edited by losservatore; 08-30-2014 at 07:30 PM.
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post #51 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 06:18 PM
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Well, in Canada, the only way to get FALD is by buying 4K displays.

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post #52 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 08:55 PM
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Does anyone know of or have a list of current "FALD" HDTVs available to buy? Seems like all the ones I find say "edge-lit."

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post #53 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
These are not inherent limitations of a technology. They involve refinement of the basic technology rather than band aids.

Right now there are life term unknowns but the OLED themselves will be refined over the next few years to extend their useful lives ....
LOL ... seriously? What is available in OLED *today*? ... essentially *one* model from *one* manufacturer ... and that model seems to come with all the limitations I've already pointed out. Remember, in the long run, we're all dead ...

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for OLED if it can actually be made viable for more folks than the 1%'ers, but right now, it's nothing more than a "status" toy. For my part, I'm done with the bleeding-edge, experimental stuff ... I've learned my lessons.

PS: For the record, I'm using a EEFL backlit IPS display ... no local dimming of any kind. But, the important thing to remember is I bought it with the intention of using it only during "daylight" hours in lieu of a front-projection system. We plan while the universe laughs.

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post #54 of 125 Old 08-30-2014, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
It has apparently been tried (by Sharp or Panasonic). It supposedly worked well except that light throughput was horrible, meaning it would consume a great deal of power and would be prohibitively expensive both because of the second layer of LCD as well as all f the additional LEDs...
I thought perhaps there might be more to it, and would have been a bit surprised if none of the major players had experimented with it. Even with a fairly transparent LCD panel as a second layer I can see where it likely reduce brightness. So at least they tried.

On a different note and back on topic I suppose, if HDR displays materialize in the next 5 years I wonder what tech that will employ... I do think OLED has the potential to be the next great display tech, but can it really get bright enough without having image-retention or foreshortened life-expectancy issues to support HDR? I don't recall exactly what tech Dolby was working with in their wip HDR displays but was thinking it was a transmissive-light display, not an emissive one... Perhaps there will be a place for FALD LED tech for longer down the road than we think...

Edit - Dolby Vision HDR does indeed seem to be an FALD LED variant. It was shown at both CES and NAB earlier this year. Anyone here that got to see it by any chance? Black levels?

http://www.cnet.com/news/high-dynami...ro-and-beyond/

http://www.studiodaily.com/2014/04/d...stika-support/

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post #55 of 125 Old 08-31-2014, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
The only way FALD can mimic emissive display is if they have 2 million zones for an HDTV and 8 million zones for a UHDTV.
or do what this smart bloke said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagenstein View Post
Given the transmissive nature of LCD tech, regardless of the light source (I'm thinking back to CCFL days), I've never quite understood why a an extra LCD layer couldn't be sandwhiched between the the primary RGB lcd layers and the light source to serve as sort of a luminance channel. In the abscence of any sort of local dimming, black is simply the LCD panels' blocking of the light source (LEDs these days) to the best of its ability. And of course the brighter the light source, the more likely some of that light is going to slip through. So why not block more of it? Just as putting two pairs of sunglasses on, one over the other, will make things look even darker (and get you some odd looks), seems better blacks could be achieved with LCD tech by having an extra panel (or 2?) specifically between the light source and main panels. They could be 1/10th the resolution of the main panels and *still* have more "zones" than any of the local dimming solutions I've seen to date. Maybe it's not as simple as I'd like to think, or the fear of adding another 1/2" to the thickness of the display sticks the manufacturers' collective craw or something. What am I missing with this concept?
i think even a simple 4bit b+w 540p panel between the lcds and leds along with some smart algorithms would create some outstanding results. isn't this this equivalent of 518400 zones with 16 levels of brightness, for very little cost?

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post #56 of 125 Old 08-31-2014, 05:22 AM
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It's been done and I have witnessed it in Japan (invited by Panasonic around 2008). The problem is that the TV becomes thicker, heavier, and dimmer (and more expensive too). I have no oroblem with all of that, but most consumers will.

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post #57 of 125 Old 08-31-2014, 06:13 AM
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Well with Q4 2014 rapidly approaching, my fingers are crossed that Panasonic really does come through with "superior algorithms" to make 128 zones of "unobtrusive local dimming" a reality in the AX900 for 3D hungry consumers like me.
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post #58 of 125 Old 08-31-2014, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jake9 View Post
Does anyone know of or have a list of current "FALD" HDTVs available to buy? Seems like all the ones I find say "edge-lit."
fafrd's thread on 2014 flagship models' pricing would be good place to start as he lists which are FALD.

2014 Flagship model 4K 65" pricing
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post #59 of 125 Old 08-31-2014, 08:05 AM
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? LEDs have replaced LCDs. They are virtually the same just now use LEDs for backlights.

You can basically use them interchangeably.
LEDs have not replaced LCs. LEDs are the means of illuminating a LCD. They are the source of light modulated by the LCs. LEDs replaced a bulb as the source of illumination in a LCD. The light that is transmitted by the LCs. Perhaps slang allows the omission of LCD after the source of illumination in describing a set but to be correct it would properly be described as say a LED LCD. I would reiterate, the technology of the display is LC, LED only describes the means of illumination.

The technology is LC. A display using LC technology is called a LCD. A subset of that technology which now comprises every current set is lit by LEDs. Further subsets of lit by LEDS are edge lit and back lit. FALD is a subset of back lit by LEDs. If you want to eliminate the technology from the description of the set you would have to say LED display or even LEDD. LCD includes the D for display. The only other current technologies are emissive technologies. Basically OLED (organic light emitting diodes) displays and plasma displays.
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post #60 of 125 Old 08-31-2014, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post
LOL ... seriously? What is available in OLED *today*? ... essentially *one* model from *one* manufacturer ... and that model seems to come with all the limitations I've already pointed out. Remember, in the long run, we're all dead ...

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for OLED if it can actually be made viable for more folks than the 1%'ers, but right now, it's nothing more than a "status" toy. For my part, I'm done with the bleeding-edge, experimental stuff ... I've learned my lessons.

PS: For the record, I'm using a EEFL backlit IPS display ... no local dimming of any kind. But, the important thing to remember is I bought it with the intention of using it only during "daylight" hours in lieu of a front-projection system. We plan while the universe laughs.
I don't own a OLED display. And I wouldn't buy one yet. But there a several 2K OLED displays on sale and at this time only one 4K OLED display. But mark my words, in 3 years or so, 4K OLED sets will be commonplace.

Mark Haflich
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