NTSC - Not The Same Calibrated-picture twice - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 12-04-2014, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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NTSC - Not The Same Calibrated-picture twice

So I have been on the Calibrated display bandwagon for well over a decade. My wife says that if she aggregated the countless hours I have spent (mostly at the dead of night) trying to perfect every display I have purchased all these years ... it would equal a loss of a year's worth of pay.

And now I am beginning to think she has a point - For the last week or so I have been spending countless hours in perfecting the visual experience on my new 4K display --- and finally managed to get to the point where the blu-ray disc I used as a reference ... looks absolutely spectacular. But the sad fact is for a perfect experience ... all the stars have to align ...

A friend of mine came last night and wanted to check out my video gear ... either that or he wanted to show off his newly acquired Oppo. Well I will cut to the chase - let's just say that the same reference material looked quite different when played through the Oppo. No I don't mean it was bad ... I mean it looked different. Meaning, it called for a re-calibration. I would imagine ... had I played the same video material through a streaming or cable service ... Netflix / Hulu / Xfinity ... they would all look different. The same Netflix stream played through Apple TV would look different compared to my Roku3. The same video/movie would look different depending on the broadcast. e.g. HBO Or Showtime. You get the point - there are way too many variables that impact the experience.

So I have come to realize that I may be chasing fool's gold here. I do understand the need for a baseline calibration but even that can only take you so far. Just wanted to voice my frustration with the standard - or lack thereof.
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post #2 of 10 Old 12-04-2014, 08:28 AM
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Not to patronize you, as you are way more knowledgeable and experienced than I am in this area, but doesn't each source require it's own calibration? Meaning, you have one panel (your new 4K display), and multiple possible sources...and calibrations:
- Your primary content (cable or satellite?) -> HDMI -> Calibrated accordingly
- Your BD player -> HDMI 2 -> Calibrated accordingly
- AppleTV -> HDMI3 -> Calibrated accordingly
- Roku3 -> HDMI4 -> Calibrated accordingly
- Your friend's Oppo -> wherever you plugged it in -> Calibrated accordingly

And so forth...

This is more of a question, than a statement...just seeing if my understanding is correct.
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post #3 of 10 Old 12-04-2014, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
Not to patronize you, as you are way more knowledgeable and experienced than I am in this area, but doesn't each source require it's own calibration? Meaning, you have one panel (your new 4K display), and multiple possible sources...and calibrations:
- Your primary content (cable or satellite?) -> HDMI -> Calibrated accordingly
- Your BD player -> HDMI 2 -> Calibrated accordingly
- AppleTV -> HDMI3 -> Calibrated accordingly
- Roku3 -> HDMI4 -> Calibrated accordingly
- Your friend's Oppo -> wherever you plugged it in -> Calibrated accordingly

And so forth...

This is more of a question, than a statement...just seeing if my understanding is correct.
- Ideally, you want to calibrate each HDMI port (i.e. each device connected to a specific port). Not all sets allow independent port calibrations. Even if they do, there are some advanced settings that get applied to all ports (i.e. Game mode).
- Lot of AVS members aggregrate their devices at the receiver with a single HDMI in to the TV.
- Calibrating a Roku using a Netflix stream will mean little if the Amazon Prime stream of the same material looks different.
- Calibrating a cable box means little if the channels vary in specs
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post #4 of 10 Old 12-04-2014, 09:43 AM
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I feel your frustration. I think part of the problem is that not all blu-ray players are made the same and some just do a better job sending video than others, even with all of the video processing disabled that can be disabled by the consumer. Calibrating the individual inputs is a bit controversial in that some say it is absolutely necessary and others day don't bother. I think the underlying reasoning is source variability, which I think is going to be a bigger problem once the higher resolution sets become more and more common and online sources try to keep up with the technology. I finally resolved it in my mind by calibrating my panel with my blu-ray player figuring that blu-ray's would be a little more consistent in how they were encoded than any other source (streaming, OTA, etc). That could be erroneous thinking but the alternative was counseling and medication. I apply pretty much the same settings to all of my sources and have learned to live with it. When I replace my blu-ray player someday I'll probably have to recalibrate again. In theory I shouldn't have to because it's the panel that's calibrated, not the source (blu-ray), but.......
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post #5 of 10 Old 12-04-2014, 10:01 AM
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I think the Oppo BD player can process the signal to the TV and you can turn that off. The notion of each input source (STB, BD player, Roku, etc) requiring it's own calibration is a bunch of bunk. Ask a professional calibrator. They'd charge you $1000 if they had to go through the process multiple times, and they don't, so that settles that. And the majority of people only have one HDMI connection to the TV from the AVR. That's all you need now.

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post #6 of 10 Old 12-04-2014, 11:44 AM
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I don't calibrate my display devices. I will do some initial changes to the global setting based on recommendations here and my own Mk I eyeball, but I have not ever felt the need to do a full-up calibration. However, I will ask a few questions about what you experienced, umenon.

Did you connect the Oppo to the exact same HDMI cable that your other BD player had been connected (either via an AVR or direct to the TV)? If not, was it through a different cable via the AVR, or into a different HDMI port on the TV? You might have calibrated your TV only for the HDMI port from the AVR (or your own BD player), so if you used a different port for the Oppo, the TV would not use your calibrations. (I can't check the Samsung manual right now to see whether it saves calibrations on a per-input basis or whether they are global, otherwise I'd know a bit more about that element.)

Can you be sure that neither your BD player nor the Oppo had any HDMI video outputs tweaks applied?

Just a few suggestions to understand what happened.

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post #7 of 10 Old 12-04-2014, 11:45 AM
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I'm with Otto on the big difference being source material.
I also agree with him that the aggravation multiplies as sets get higher resolution and color gamut.
I think it's smart to use a BluRay or DVD calibration disc to get a decent white level and color balance.
Then fine-tune color management to get fleshtones as consistent as possible from one source to
the next. I know that I had to desaturate the fleshtones on my set in order for the worst to look ok.
It depends on what you use the set for, as well. Cable and satellite programs vary considerably.
Some TVs have some settings that can be customized for each input. Mine has one such, but I don't
use it primarily. I just hit a sweet spot where all sources are ok and BluRays are spectacular.

Sharp UQ17U Calibrations

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post #8 of 10 Old 12-04-2014, 01:40 PM
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^^^^ yeah. We don't have cable/sat so television for us is OTA. Fortunately we live in a sweet spot so we don't have any of the issues that plague a lot of OTA viewers. Signal compression is considerably less with OTA than cable/sat so my calibrated settings via blu-ray, and the single HDMI input, works extremely well for all sources (OTA, blu-ray, AppleTV, and even the laptop if I'm inclined to use it). We get very little pq variation when watching network tv, but I can certainly tell the difference when the broadcast is 720 or 1080.
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post #9 of 10 Old 12-04-2014, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinksma View Post
I don't calibrate my display devices. I will do some initial changes to the global setting based on recommendations here and my own Mk I eyeball, but I have not ever felt the need to do a full-up calibration. However, I will ask a few questions about what you experienced, umenon.

Did you connect the Oppo to the exact same HDMI cable that your other BD player had been connected (either via an AVR or direct to the TV)? If not, was it through a different cable via the AVR, or into a different HDMI port on the TV? You might have calibrated your TV only for the HDMI port from the AVR (or your own BD player), so if you used a different port for the Oppo, the TV would not use your calibrations. (I can't check the Samsung manual right now to see whether it saves calibrations on a per-input basis or whether they are global, otherwise I'd know a bit more about that element.)

Can you be sure that neither your BD player nor the Oppo had any HDMI video outputs tweaks applied?

Just a few suggestions to understand what happened.
I have each component connected directly to the TV. An optical out goes out to the receiver for audio (this TV is not our main HT system). The oppo was using the same HDMI port as the blu-ray device. The point of this discussion is to highlight the variances induced by each component in the chain and the ultimate impact on the overall experience ... thereby questioning the ROI when we calibrate our sets.
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post #10 of 10 Old 12-04-2014, 04:16 PM
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I think the cal procedure is simplified a bit if all devices are connected to a receiver (that doesn't do any video processing) with the single HDMI cable going out to the tv. It's not a pure connection in the sense that you have a single cable connecting two devices but that is something that has to be taken into consideration. The ROI on calibrating is something that certainly has to be considered. Especially now when lots of folks are purchasing the brand new crop of 4k tv's and pairing them with older devices (blu-ray players, STBs', receivers, etc). A well made tv could certainly show the flaws in the rest of the system. Personally, I'd never calibrate each input because you would forever be making tweaks afterwards and always doubting, mostly because of source issues. I would venture to say that most of the tv buying population doesn't care about calibrating their tv to current rec.709 standards and some even like torch mode Those of us anal folks here are the ones who stress over this but once you start, it's hard to go back
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