2015 Sony TV's.. still no 60hz PC WTF???? - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 31 Old 01-07-2015, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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2015 Sony TV's.. still no 60hz PC WTF????

Bad news came out in CES from Sony..

Sony's 2015 line up of LCD TV's.. they posted their specs over at sony..
As most of you know, many of us are looking at 4K TV as a computer/HTPC monitor but previous either don't have Display port or only have a crippled version of HDMI2.0 that dosen't support 4:4:4 60hz to use as computer monitor..
Well, looks like nothing has changed for Sony's 2015 TV's
http://store.sony.com/gsi/webstore/W...0AAAFKxlsGnE72

Quote:
HDMI PC INPUT
3840x2160@30Hz
How the heck can they make $6,000 TV's with an ability (4K resolution) that SCREAMS ideal HTPC computer hookup.. and STILL not Freaking allow for a full function PC hookup???? after 3 years.. and still no full PC ability?? LAME..
How can they be so nearsighted? I pray other manufactures do not follow suit.. I hope LG's has displayport..
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post #2 of 31 Old 01-08-2015, 05:34 AM
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Its ridiculous they are charging more than their competitors and yet their 4K TV 's can't even support 60Hz or 4:4:4 at 2160p which is just lame. So glad I didn't buy a Sony 4K TV and I'm happy with my LG. Better off looking at either a Panasonic or LG because they are the only ones that can do 4:4:4 at 60Hz properly.
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post #3 of 31 Old 01-08-2015, 05:52 AM
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post #4 of 31 Old 01-08-2015, 07:11 AM
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IMO, the specs are wrong. It will be corrected later on their site.
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post #5 of 31 Old 01-08-2015, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mlmcasual View Post
Bad news came out in CES from Sony..

Sony's 2015 line up of LCD TV's.. they posted their specs over at sony..
As most of you know, many of us are looking at 4K TV as a computer/HTPC monitor but previous either don't have Display port or only have a crippled version of HDMI2.0 that dosen't support 4:4:4 60hz to use as computer monitor..
Well, looks like nothing has changed for Sony's 2015 TV's
http://store.sony.com/gsi/webstore/W...0AAAFKxlsGnE72



How the heck can they make $6,000 TV's with an ability (4K resolution) that SCREAMS ideal HTPC computer hookup.. and STILL not Freaking allow for a full function PC hookup???? after 3 years.. and still no full PC ability?? LAME..
How can they be so nearsighted? I pray other manufactures do not follow suit.. I hope LG's has displayport..
They don't support 4:4:4 either.

It is the dumbest thing ever. Who the hell is buying a 4K TV and not using it with a PC when the bulk of 4K content comes from the PC?

4K TVs should have had at least one DisplayPort from day one on them. At this point I have no problem with Sony's TV business going under due to their constant stupid decisions. They weren't a victim of circumstance; they dug their own grave.
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post #6 of 31 Old 01-09-2015, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony took down the technical specifications pages of the CES2015 TV's (800,900c series)... Three days ago they were up and clearly said

HDMI PC INPUT
3840x2160@30Hz

Now the question is.. were they incorrect or is Sony Purposefully withholding the SPECS to avoid a black eye.. .How come no one reporting at CES has asked/reported on this isse.. DOES sony 2015 4K TV's fully support Computers - 4:4:4chromasampling/fullRGB, 4K resoution, 60Hz.
Why is this such a freaking hard question to have asked and answered??

We see tons of reporting spewing talking points about pointless smartfeatures like streaming Hulu but not the Usefull stuff like using a monster resolution 4K hooked to a PC.. I don't believe that it's such a "niche" thing to hook a pc to TV.. heck it was mainstream back with 1080P first came out so why the heck now we actually have trully USEFULL resolutions it's not even mentioned in reporting????? I just can't figure that out..
I would LOVE for just ONCE to see a so called "Tech Journalist" from Giz, AVS, etc do something other then be just regurgitate manufactures talking points..

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post #7 of 31 Old 04-19-2015, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlmcasual View Post
Sony took down the technical specifications pages of the CES2015 TV's (800,900c series)... Three days ago they were up and clearly said

HDMI PC INPUT
3840x2160@30Hz

Now the question is.. were they incorrect or is Sony Purposefully withholding the SPECS to avoid a black eye.. .How come no one reporting at CES has asked/reported on this isse.. DOES sony 2015 4K TV's fully support Computers - 4:4:4chromasampling/fullRGB, 4K resoution, 60Hz.
Why is this such a freaking hard question to have asked and answered??

We see tons of reporting spewing talking points about pointless smartfeatures like streaming Hulu but not the Usefull stuff like using a monster resolution 4K hooked to a PC.. I don't believe that it's such a "niche" thing to hook a pc to TV.. heck it was mainstream back with 1080P first came out so why the heck now we actually have trully USEFULL resolutions it's not even mentioned in reporting????? I just can't figure that out..
I would LOVE for just ONCE to see a so called "Tech Journalist" from Giz, AVS, etc do something other then be just regurgitate manufactures talking points..
I just checked Sony's site today, and even for the high end model (940) it still says:

HDMI PC INPUT
3840x2160@30Hz

So...no Sony for me this year, although I really like their design, I'm gonna have to pick a Sammy or Panasonic
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post #8 of 31 Old 04-19-2015, 09:25 AM
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I'd guess 95% of us who buy a X940C are not spending $8,000 to use it as a computer monitor.
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post #9 of 31 Old 05-20-2015, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, the 2015 850c are in, and it's verified as of 2015- Sony still lacks the ability to connect with fully functional 4:4:4/60hz ability.. Disappointing, looks like the Samsung is it for me..


Quote:
I'd guess 95% of us who buy a X940C are not spending $8,000 to use it as a computer monitor.
That logic seems backwards to me.. Shouldn't an $8,000 Tv Be ABLE to used with a computer? Manufactures were making provisions back in CRT Days for connecting to a computer.. Now that we have True HIGH resolution and large TV's that .. if anything modern 4K tvs are more suited for a computer connection then ever! That's why we have HTPC's.

I currently use a 2012 Sony 1080P 55" tv connected to an HTPC.. I don't do Just all movies or all computer.. it's a multitasker..
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post #10 of 31 Old 05-20-2015, 12:30 PM
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Question

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Originally Posted by mlmcasual View Post
Well, the 2015 850c are in, and it's verified as of 2015- Sony still lacks the ability to connect with fully functional 4:4:4/60hz ability.. Disappointing, looks like the Samsung is it for me..




That logic seems backwards to me.. Shouldn't an $8,000 Tv Be ABLE to used with a computer? Manufactures were making provisions back in CRT Days for connecting to a computer.. Now that we have True HIGH resolution and large TV's that .. if anything modern 4K tvs are more suited for a computer connection then ever! That's why we have HTPC's.

I currently use a 2012 Sony 1080P 55" tv connected to an HTPC.. I don't do Just all movies or all computer.. it's a multitasker..
Are you all using these large sized TVs(60+ inches) as computer monitors for regular computer use or are you using them to watch 4K videos and play games?
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post #11 of 31 Old 05-20-2015, 01:01 PM
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I don't think that's correct. I mean, if you look at the full specs all of the HDMI ports support 60hz in "non-PC" mode (I even double-checked in the manual). So, just don't tell the TV it's a PC? There's no reason the TV needs to know it's displaying a PC image. You lose 4:4:4 I guess, but whatever. I only use my PC to my TV for gaming anyway and it'll be a loooong time until I'm running games at 4k/60fps.

EDIT: Here's the full specification:

Video Signal : 3840x2160/24p (HDMI only); 3840x2160/30p (HDMI only); *4096x2160/24p (display center 3840 area); YUV420 3840x2160/60p (HDMI only); *YUV420 4096x2160/60p (display center 3840 area); 1080/24p(HDMI only); 1080/60i (HDMI, Component); 1080/60p (HDMI, Component); 480/60i; 480/60p; 720/60p; 1080/30p (HDMI only); 720/30p (HDMI only); 720/24p (HDMI only)

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post #12 of 31 Old Yesterday, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlmcasual View Post
Well, the 2015 850c are in, and it's verified as of 2015- Sony still lacks the ability to connect with fully functional 4:4:4/60hz ability.. Disappointing, looks like the Samsung is it for me..




That logic seems backwards to me.. Shouldn't an $8,000 Tv Be ABLE to used with a computer? Manufactures were making provisions back in CRT Days for connecting to a computer.. Now that we have True HIGH resolution and large TV's that .. if anything modern 4K tvs are more suited for a computer connection then ever! That's why we have HTPC's.

I currently use a 2012 Sony 1080P 55" tv connected to an HTPC.. I don't do Just all movies or all computer.. it's a multitasker..
Can you name some new Samsung models that support 4k60p @ 4:4:4? I'm trying to pick a 4K that can support it.
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post #13 of 31 Old Yesterday, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Carlos_E View Post
I'd guess 95% of us who buy a X940C are not spending $8,000 to use it as a computer monitor.
I swear that sometimes you really come off as a Sony employee. Any time anyone brings up anything negative of their sets there you are to try and rationalize it away.

An 8k TV should have the ability to do what's mentioned here, especially when sets far less in price can do it.

ROB
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Originally Posted by zgemboandislic View Post
Can you name some new Samsung models that support 4k60p @ 4:4:4? I'm trying to pick a 4K that can support it.
All of the new ones, every Samsung JU and JS appears to have at least one 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 input. I returned a few sets last year after trying them and finding out they only came with "10Gbps diet HDMI 2.0", being an early adopter then the documentation was poor and online information was not available.

I agree that other OEMs overlooking this in 2015 even on their top models is unacceptable, the chipset is obviously available and using the right version would barely register a blip on the BOM, printing the box art probably costs more.

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Originally Posted by rlindo View Post
I swear that sometimes you really come off as a Sony employee. Any time anyone brings up anything negative of their sets there you are to try and rationalize it away.

An 8k TV should have the ability to do what's mentioned here, especially when sets far less in price can do it.
Have you read the comments in the 940C thread? NO ONE CARES!

There are like 4 of you who want to use it as a computer monitor. The rest of us, no. If I want a 4K monitor, I'll go buy one.
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post #16 of 31 Old Yesterday, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I would think the HTPC market is large enough size that manufactures like Sony should care...
Samsung and others seem to care...

The 2015 Sony's does HDCP 2.2 only so it can't do 4:4:4 @60 hz.. . The 2015 samsungs are able to do both hdcp 2.2 and non hdcp for full 4:4:4 60hz

I would PREFER to buy a sony but as I want to use it for both movies and as an HTPC (monitor) it's a dealbreaker for me.
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Originally Posted by mlmcasual View Post
I would think the HTPC market is large enough size that manufactures like Sony should care...
Samsung and others seem to care...

The 2015 Sony's does HDCP 2.2 only so it can't do 4:4:4 @60 hz.. . The 2015 samsungs are able to do both hdcp 2.2 and non hdcp for full 4:4:4 60hz

I would PREFER to buy a sony but as I want to use it for both movies and as an HTPC (monitor) it's a dealbreaker for me.
Understood. But you're in the minority. The majority will use it as a TV and not need 4:4:4 @60 hz due to the UHD Bluray standard being 10-bit 4:2:0.
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post #18 of 31 Old Yesterday, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Carlos_E View Post
Understood. But you're in the minority. The majority will use it as a TV and not need 4:4:4 @60 hz due to the UHD Bluray standard being 10-bit 4:2:0.
Not really lots of people myself included use UHD tv for PC games @ 4k and more will come in the fall as new cards are released and HDR for games start shipping. The top end tv's should have this from Sony and it says that Sony did not use the top of the line or latest HDMI silicon Chip . Makes no difference to you but to those who it does makes Sony not a viable option for PC gamers why limite yourself by not putting in the latest HDMI chip? Samsungs lowest level 4k tv JU6500 has 4K @ 60hz the bottom model no excuses sony should have included this but they choose to save money and thus will lose some sales for it .

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post #19 of 31 Old Yesterday, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Carlos_E View Post
Understood. But you're in the minority. The majority will use it as a TV and not need 4:4:4 @60 hz due to the UHD Bluray standard being 10-bit 4:2:0.
That and Blu-rays won’t be 60 FPS. They will be 24 FPS. I bet that we will see 4K @ 24 FPS 4:4:4 Blu-ray players sooner rather than later.
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Originally Posted by mlmcasual View Post
I would think the HTPC market is large enough size that manufactures like Sony should care...
Samsung and others seem to care...

The 2015 Sony's does HDCP 2.2 only so it can't do 4:4:4 @60 hz.. . The 2015 samsungs are able to do both hdcp 2.2 and non hdcp for full 4:4:4 60hz

I would PREFER to buy a sony but as I want to use it for both movies and as an HTPC (monitor) it's a dealbreaker for me.
But an HTPC doesn't need 60hz. Movies/shows are only 24-30fps, so who cares about 60hz? The only real need for 60hz is gaming, which 4k @ 60fps is pretty much impossible right now. To even get 40+fps in modern games, you'd need to build a $3000-$4000 gaming rig. And even then, it's a struggle. You're much better off playing at 1080p on a TV with a high quality 4k scaler. The only other use I can think of is if you are literally using the TV as a monitor for photoshop or something, but seriously who's doing that?
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post #21 of 31 Old Yesterday, 11:32 AM
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If it can do 60Hz on HDMI then I don't see why a PC can't connect via HDMI and send a 3840x2160 signal at 60Hz.
The TV doesn't know if the input is coming from a PC or not. It just needs to have the correct timing and resolution.
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If it can do 60Hz on HDMI then I don't see why a PC can't connect via HDMI and send a 3840x2160 signal at 60Hz.
The TV doesn't know if the input is coming from a PC or not. It just needs to have the correct timing and resolution.
This is correct, except that's with 4:2:0 chroma subsampling. It makes text on PCs kind of hard to read, but I'm not sure how much of an effect it has on movies or games. Somebody else can chime in there, I'm curious myself.
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post #23 of 31 Old Yesterday, 11:46 AM
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This is correct, except that's with 4:2:0 chroma subsampling. It makes text on PCs kind of hard to read, but I'm not sure how much of an effect it has on movies or games. Somebody else can chime in there, I'm curious myself.
Gotcha, I missed the whole 4:4:4 chroma part of the analysis. It is a good question indeed.
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post #24 of 31 Old Yesterday, 11:48 AM
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I would think the HTPC market is large enough size that manufactures like Sony should care...
The HTPC market is surprisingly small. However, the 4K HTPC market is tiny. Most current HTPCs don't have the ability to handle 4K games/content. While I agree this may grow to be a bigger market over time it is not there yet.
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The HTPC market is surprisingly small. However, the 4K HTPC market is tiny. Most current HTPCs don't have the ability to handle 4K games/content. While I agree this may grow to be a bigger market over time it is not there yet.
yes true but it is better to have the option than not .People on AVS might not care and yes it is a small majority but many PC gamers don't post on avs and when they want a 4k tv that can also work as a PC monitor they will choose another brand instead of Sony a lost sale is a lost sale no matter how large of a scale. They should have added it the extra cost would have been very small.. DX12 launches this summer with windows 10.DX12 will improve performance on old cards of up to 500-600% allowing 4k 60hz to be easily obtainable .They are also releasing new cards that will improve even further 4k gaming so by fall 4k 60HZ will be easy to get. Also windows 10 has special built in 4k playback so it will be a factor

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post #26 of 31 Old Yesterday, 01:02 PM
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yes true but it is better to have the option than not .People on AVS might not care and yes it is a small majority but many PC gamers don't post on avs and when they want a 4k tv that can also work as a PC monitor they will choose another brand instead of Sony a lost sale is a lost sale no matter how large of a scale. They should have added it the extra cost would have been very small.. DX12 launches this summer with windows 10.DX12 will improve performance on old cards of up to 500-600% allowing 4k 60hz to be easily obtainable .They are also releasing new cards that will improve even further 4k gaming so by fall 4k 60HZ will be easy to get.
I'm a major PC gamer, I have no qualms about 4k @ 30hz. Plus, you can still get 4k @ 60hz with 4:2:0 or 1080p @ 120hz, both of which are good options. Would the option be nice to have? Sure. Just like it's always nice to buy a motherboard with room for SLI, even though I never end up doing SLI. There's always a way to talk yourself out of a piece of technology, if that's what you want to do. Always some other theoretical option that could be out there. And, really, let's be frank here: there will be no mainstream 4k PC gaming going on any higher than 30fps for at least a couple years. The only way you can even do it now is with spending like $2k on GPUs alone, not to mention the monster board, PSU and case to go along with them. And that's for 30fps.
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That and Blu-rays won’t be 60 FPS. They will be 24 FPS. I bet that we will see 4K @ 24 FPS 4:4:4 Blu-ray players sooner rather than later.
Since all blurays, whether UHD or FHD, store information on disc in 420, I always wondered why on earth you would upscale the chroma to 444 inside the bluray player prior to sending it over the wire, there is literally no image quality benefit. Chroma upscaling is not difficult and every TV does it perfectly well.

The only reason people need 444 is for UHD 60 from PCs. Aside from that, zero benefit. 99.99999% of UHD Blurays, at least for the first few years until HFR becomes more popular, will be stored in 10 bit 420 at 24hz which fits perfectly well inside a 10gbps HDMI 2.0 "b" connection.

Dolby Vision's 12 bits will likely need 18gbps ports, even at 24hz, since the data stored (including metadata) is maybe 50% larger than a normal movie. Although I'm sure there are some nifty transfer functions they will be using to take the base 10 bit data and get 12 from that.
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Originally Posted by player002 View Post
yes true but it is better to have the option than not .People on AVS might not care and yes it is a small majority but many PC gamers don't post on avs and when they want a 4k tv that can also work as a PC monitor they will choose another brand instead of Sony a lost sale is a lost sale no matter how large of a scale. They should have added it the extra cost would have been very small.. DX12 launches this summer with windows 10.DX12 will improve performance on old cards of up to 500-600% allowing 4k 60hz to be easily obtainable .They are also releasing new cards that will improve even further 4k gaming so by fall 4k 60HZ will be easy to get. Also windows 10 has special built in 4k playback so it will be a factor
Agree 18 GB/s HDMI would have been nice for (2160p/60 YbCbr 4:4:4 ) even though most people an I don't need it they could easily do it with 2 parallel Hdmi chips and or dual HDMI link if they insist on using the cheap ones or no Display port. HDMI is just a simple bandwidth limited data data pipe ............... Maybe whoever buys the Sony TV subsidiary won't be so cheap and you can watch VP9 bit starved 2160p You Tube or play 4K BD 4:2:0 and set your GPU to YbCbr 4:4:4 for nothing .........

OTOH as was mentioned earlier you need a phat buffed big monster game box to play 2160p /60 4:4:4 at decent playable frame rates ,the average performance desktop won't even touch that and probably won't in the foreseeable future anyway so really if you don't have one it's not an issue unless u screen geek Photoshop hard or Video edit like that in which case you're going to want a workstation monitor anyway and not a TV

I'm Running my 5th Build of Windows 10 Technical preview they just rolled us out another build yesterday here outside of NO WMC (ever) it's the windows you will want . W10 opens/ runs most things faster and browsers also including Chrome and Firefox like a scalded dog and it has DX 12 baked in and a new graphics rendering stack , text is sharper /clearer also not to mention at General Acceptance it's a free upgrade to Win 7 sp1 and 8.1 owners

I have a 27" 2560 x1440 and a 50" 2013 Sony 1080P for video and multi tasking and also reg TV ,Sat STB and Roku in here .

W10 is the daily driver on this box. (still has some bugs to work out ) I just ignore the start/tard/live tile menu and use x86 desktop and browsers.for the most part other than 3-4 live tile apps ( that actually work ☻)

I will get W10 free without having to give up my 7 x64 product key for enduring the Beta testing on 2 boxes here and keep those dual boot like this one is and will be . That being said it's decent it's the one you will want ,gamers like DX12 ofc .

(expect realistically ) 20 ~25% improvement over DX 11 with DX 12,it depends if beta testing is any indication . OFC not anything near 500-600% it ain't that much of a stretch in beta testing by a country mile (actually hundreds in this case unless even if have an old DX 9 card and who want's one of those anyway 500% ( a huge reality stretch ) of nothing is still a nothing card

I'm going to migrate 3PC here OTOH the earner in the studio will remain 7 x64 for DAW's, Editors ,outboard midi ,WASPI,Synths ,N.I Mashine ,Arturia ,and other HDWE and software and VST compatibility and mission critical reliability

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- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; Today at 12:10 AM.
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post #29 of 31 Old Yesterday, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
Since all blurays, whether UHD or FHD, store information on disc in 420, I always wondered why on earth you would upscale the chroma to 444 inside the bluray player prior to sending it over the wire, there is literally no image quality benefit. Chroma upscaling is not difficult and every TV does it perfectly well.

The only reason people need 444 is for UHD 60 from PCs. Aside from that, zero benefit. 99.99999% of UHD Blurays, at least for the first few years until HFR becomes more popular, will be stored in 10 bit 420 at 24hz which fits perfectly well inside a 10gbps HDMI 2.0 "b" connection.

Dolby Vision's 12 bits will likely need 18gbps ports, even at 24hz, since the data stored (including metadata) is maybe 50% larger than a normal movie. Although I'm sure there are some nifty transfer functions they will be using to take the base 10 bit data and get 12 from that.
repeating what I said in another thread and with some additional points ,

Depends on "which Dolby Vision standard " you are talking about and they are always subject to revision *and have recently been revised* anyway specifically for TV receivers IOW nothing is cast in stone at this point . Right now Dolby Vision (brightness) for TV is a minimum of 600-1000 NIT *revised down from the original 10,000 -14,000 Nit.

When ITU REC 2020 +WCG and any luminance thresholds *they may add in*gets finalized *that will be the stone *and the others will be merely optional .

AFAIK they are talking 10 * and * 12 bit TV panels at Dolby . They can hit the *TV Dolby mark in at 10 bit and within HDMI 18Gb/s bandwidth no prob.
AFAIK Brightness is an amplitude point in a digital wave form representation that's just data word lengths like chroma WCG and at 1000 NIT it's doable on 18Gb/s HDMI. They could even dynamically Data burst the additional Chroma WCG and Luminance data bit words and or metadata if they needed to like 5.1 .

Looks like Sony,Samsung ,Vizio, Phillips ,LG and Toshiba are part of the Dolby TV alliance or whatever it is .
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/categories/tv.html

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