Vizio Active Led Zones vs Samsung local dimming - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Vizio Active Led Zones vs Samsung local dimming

I was shopping the at Costco yesterday. I noticed several Vizios had local dimming with either 6, 16, or 30+ active Led zones.

The Samsung tvs had thier own version of local dimming but didn't specify number of zones etc.


Is there a consensus opinion on which is better?
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post #2 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 07:56 AM
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The Vizio's you were looking were most likely their full array models unless they were older stock. They have true zones and leds through the back of the entire TV.

The Sasmungs you were looking at was most likely edge lit and only has LEDs around the edge of the TV and does not actually have true local dimmming and cannot distinguish zones like the Vizio's can.

Full array LEDs do a better job of removing flashlighting and clouding in the panel. The Samsung will probably have better color accuracy but worse screen uniformity.
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post #3 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 08:08 AM
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Basically a FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) has full array and a minimum of 90/100 zones. The Vizio stuff you mention has less LEDs and less zones, it is more or less poor man's FALD. Samsung has Edge Lit Dimming and fakes Full Array Local Dimming (Samsung Micro Dimming Ultimate divides the screen into app. 600 fake zones). It needs to be checked out in the dark to see how well it performs (FALD has better contrast, is better for darkroom performance).
http://www.homefuninc.com/local-dimm...mming-standard


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post #4 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm looking for a tv that will not be viewed in a dark room. its for a family/game room with several windows nearby. Is local dimming more effective on tvs viewed in light controlled rooms?
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post #5 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 09:06 AM
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The ''real'' FALDs are high end, expensive, top of the line LCd TVs. Under normal viewing conditions a high end Edge Lit will have a similar performance. Only in the dark the FALD will have a better performance.
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post #6 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nflguy View Post
I'm looking for a tv that will not be viewed in a dark room. its for a family/game room with several windows nearby. Is local dimming more effective on tvs viewed in light controlled rooms?

If not viewing in a dark environment then FALD matters less. Local dimming is so sought after here because most do critical viewing at night or in light controlled rooms. If there are always lights on or its a "bright" room then that matters less.


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post #7 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Basically a FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) has full array and a minimum of 90/100 zones. The Vizio stuff you mention has less LEDs and less zones, it is more or less poor man's FALD.
Sorry, there does not have to be 90/100 zones to be considered FALD. FALD is a technolgy that is based on how the LEDs are placed within a panel and not named by how many zones they are assigned. Obviously the more zones the better but that is not to say a TV with lesser zones is no longer considered a FALD TV. It is just considered a less quality FALD TV which won't have the advantages of panels with more zones.
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post #8 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
If not viewing in a dark environment then FALD matters less. Local dimming is so sought after here because most do critical viewing at night or in light controlled rooms. If there are always lights on or its a "bright" room then that matters less.


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Agree with this. In a bright room the lighting can cover up flashlighting and clouding depending on bad it actually is and also make black's appear darker then they really are.

In a bright room there is no doubt a Samsung edge lit can look better then a Vizio FALD set in a bright room depending on the models we at talking. A Samsung edge lit LED can also look better then a FALD Vizio in a dim room depending on the Vizio model you are looking at.

Samsung's have great color and saturation usually. I also like the clear gloss panels that Samsung uses.

Haven't said all that, I can't stand flashlighting and clouding on a TV so just knowing it is there bothers me but you might feel differently about it.

What models are you comparing?
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post #9 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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What about off angle viewing? I need the tv to mounted high on the wall (we have young kids). It will be mounted roughly same height as tvs mounted above a fire place.

So I'm worried about ghosting etc when looking up at tv. Any suggestions?
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post #10 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Sorry, there does not have to be 90/100 zones to be considered FALD. FALD is a technolgy that is based on how the LEDs are placed within a panel and not named by how many zones they are assigned. Obviously the more zones the better but that is not to say a TV with lesser zones is no longer considered a FALD TV. It is just considered a less quality FALD TV which won't have the advantages of panels with more zones.
Well. What i say is that the Vizio's are poor men's FALD. So i am saying that those Vizio's are FALDs. Look, when one says FALD one thinks of high end with lots of LEDs and lots of zones (and even some of those are considered lesser quality). Technically those Vizio's are FALDs but not really AFAIK and i am not the only one who feels that way.
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post #11 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nflguy View Post
What about off angle viewing? I need the tv to mounted high on the wall (we have young kids). It will be mounted roughly same height as tvs mounted above a fire place.

So I'm worried about ghosting etc when looking up at tv. Any suggestions?
If you mount a TV up high, you want to get a mount that allows you to angle it down.

The off angle viewing to be concerned about with LEDs is from the sides. No LED handles this well IMO but some do better then others depending on the panel that is used.

You usually have to pick better contrast or better side angle viewing, but you can't get both. As long as angling the TV down at viewing at the center then it shouldn't really matter. What matters is where your seating will be located.
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post #12 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Well. What i say is that the Vizio's are poor men's FALD. So i am saying that those Vizio's are FALDs. Look, when one says FALD one thinks of high end with lots of LEDs and lots of zones (and even some of those are considered lesser quality). Technically those Vizio's are FALDs but not really AFAIK and i am not the only one who feels that way.
Well you can think of the Vizio's any way you want and give them any nichname that floats your boat but bottom line is it uses FALD technology and is considered a FALD TV. Not all FALD TVs need to be $5,000 and have 300 zones. That would just be considered a higher tier of the technology.

Only reason why people think that FALD tech needs 100's of zones is because up until now that was all that was available. VIZIO just showed everyone you can release a lower priced, lower spec'd FALD TV with advantages over edge lit technology. Nothing wrong with that.
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post #13 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 12:12 PM
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I read the recent UK Review of the Samsung 65" SUHD and they ran the mouse over test and reported 150 zones. Seen no report on the 78" as they are still pending release.

I've never seen them together to compare but the UK Review gave it it's top Award recently and one of the most positive reviews I've ever seen. However it remains way overpriced at $6K for a 65" so in a battle of the budget buyer it's likely out of reach.

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
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If side viewing is important maybe look at a LG with a IPS Panel.

Current Sets:
Sony XBR65X900B Samsung UN65JS9000 LG 55EC9300
PN64F8500 Plasma SOLD ;(
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Well you can think of the Vizio's any way you want and give them any nichname that floats your boat but bottom line is it uses FALD technology and is considered a FALD TV. Not all FALD TVs need to be $5,000 and have 300 zones. That would just be considered a higher tier of the technology.

Only reason why people think that FALD tech needs 100's of zones is because up until now that was all that was available. VIZIO just showed everyone you can release a lower priced, lower spec'd FALD TV with advantages over edge lit technology. Nothing wrong with that.
My problem with the Vizio FALD's is that when demo-ing them in the stores I've yet to see anything presented that equaled or surpassed my current 65F8000 or D8000 Samsungs or the other current Samsung's/Sony X900/950 or OLED's.

I'm awaiting the highly touted R series to perhaps make me reach for my wallet but it remains MIA. Sorry, but if I audition at the store and the result doesn't wow a buyer beyond what they own then it doesn't matter whether it's FALD or not. The Price is an easy choice but if it doesn't impress after seeing it repeatedly then it doesn't matter as I'll never go backwards but perhaps Vizio just does a crappy job presenting their products in-store?

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
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post #16 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Think of getting this one since I don't want to spend over $1300.

Samsung 65" Class (64.5" Diag.) 1080p Smart LED HDTV UN65H6300AFXZA
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post #17 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post
My problem with the Vizio FALD's is that when demo-ing them in the stores I've yet to see anything presented that equaled or surpassed my current 65F8000 or D8000 Samsungs or the other current Samsung's/Sony X900/950 or OLED's.

I'm awaiting the highly touted R series to perhaps make me reach for my wallet but it remains MIA. Sorry, but if I audition at the store and the result doesn't wow a buyer beyond what they own then it doesn't matter whether it's FALD or not. The Price is an easy choice but if it doesn't impress after seeing it repeatedly then it doesn't matter as I'll never go backwards but perhaps Vizio just does a crappy job presenting their products in-store?
I think the Samsung F8000 will overall produce a better picture due to it's better colors and also the clear filter they use over the muted/semi reflective P series filter. But the P series does offer deep blacks and great screen uniformity.

You talk about not buying being wowed in a store more then what you currently own, well think about how us plasma owners feel. A lot of us won't buy any of these LEDs whether it be FALD or edge lit. At least you have been able to come to terms with LED whichever the tech they use, a lot of us plasma owners don't having anything to choose from because 99.9% of the LEDs produced are inferior to plasma's except for maybe the Sharp Elite.

I know you are a LED guy, but the way you feel about Vizio FALD TVs is the way many of us feel about LEDs overall.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Well you can think of the Vizio's any way you want and give them any nichname that floats your boat but bottom line is it uses FALD technology and is considered a FALD TV. Not all FALD TVs need to be $5,000 and have 300 zones. That would just be considered a higher tier of the technology.

Only reason why people think that FALD tech needs 100's of zones is because up until now that was all that was available. VIZIO just showed everyone you can release a lower priced, lower spec'd FALD TV with advantages over edge lit technology. Nothing wrong with that.
Well. It floats also C|NETs boat According C|NET those are Direct Local Dimming LED LCd's.
http://www.cnet.com/news/led-local-dimming-explained/

Vizio Direct Local Dimming compared with FALD:
- fewer LEDs
- not as many dimmable zones
- dimming is less precise
- more blooming than full array
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post #19 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Well. It floats also C|NETs boat According C|NET those are Direct Local Dimming LED LCd's.
http://www.cnet.com/news/led-local-dimming-explained/

Vizio Direct Local Dimming compared with FALD:
- fewer LEDs
- not as many dimmable zones
- dimming is less precise
- more blooming than full array
Taken right out of the CNET review of the P Series:

"The good The Vizio P series delivers 4K resolution for significantly less than other major TV brands. Its picture quality, thanks to full-array local dimming, delivers deep black levels (aside from the 55-inch size) and excellent contrast for an LCD TV."

Sure sounds like they consider the P series a FALD TV to me.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Well. It floats also C|NETs boat According C|NET those are Direct Local Dimming LED LCd's.
http://www.cnet.com/news/led-local-dimming-explained/

Vizio Direct Local Dimming compared with FALD:
- fewer LEDs
- not as many dimmable zones
- dimming is less precise
- more blooming than full array
Taken right out of the CNET review of the P Series:

"The good The Vizio P series delivers 4K resolution for significantly less than other major TV brands. Its picture quality, thanks to full-array local dimming, delivers deep black levels (aside from the 55-inch size) and excellent contrast for an LCD TV."

Sure sounds like they consider the P series a FALD TV to me.
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Well. You clearly stated that all full array local dimming LED LCd's are FALDs which is not the case according C|NET..

The P series are FALDs, but it is not the real deal
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Well. You clearly stated that all full array local dimming LED LCd's are FALDs which is not the case according C|NET..

The P series are FALDs, but it is not the real deal
You clearly stated that FALD TVs have to have 90/100 zones at a minimum to be considered FALD which is not the case according to CNET.

And yes, I also consider the E Series and M Series FALD as well with fewer zones. Their LED layout is behind the panel (full array) and have a number of zones they can dim (local dimming).
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
You clearly stated that FALD TVs have to have 90/100 zones at a minimum to be considered FALD which is not the case according to CNET.
That is not what i said. I said
''Basically a FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) has full array and a minimum of 90/100 zones. The Vizio stuff you mention has less LEDs and less zones, it is more or less poor man's FALD. ''
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Well you can think of the Vizio's any way you want and give them any nichname that floats your boat but bottom line is it uses FALD technology and is considered a FALD TV. Not all FALD TVs need to be $5,000 and have 300 zones. That would just be considered a higher tier of the technology.

Only reason why people think that FALD tech needs 100's of zones is because up until now that was all that was available. VIZIO just showed everyone you can release a lower priced, lower spec'd FALD TV with advantages over edge lit technology. Nothing wrong with that.
Sounds like you don't differentiate between direct lit and FALD. It would appear Vizio is now using the terms interchangeably.
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Sounds like you don't differentiate between direct lit and FALD. It would appear Vizio is now using the terms interchangeably.
So how would you name the E series, M series and P series?
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Originally Posted by GatorJZ View Post
Sounds like you don't differentiate between direct lit and FALD. It would appear Vizio is now using the terms interchangeably.

Direct lit has no control of individual zones, FALD does, I guess everyone reviewing the Vizio FALD sets is being "fooled". Not sure where you get they are using them interchangeably.

What I do see is a lot of snobbery happening that they are lesser sets because they don't cost 8k and have 85858595 zones. *shrug* seems like a knowledgeable well balanced party as always.


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Vizio Active Led Zones vs Samsung local dimming

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Well. It floats also C|NETs boat According C|NET those are Direct Local Dimming LED LCd's.
http://www.cnet.com/news/led-local-dimming-explained/

Vizio Direct Local Dimming compared with FALD:
- fewer LEDs
- not as many dimmable zones
- dimming is less precise
- more blooming than full array

It seems you're selectively picking out parts as well...the P series isn't even mentioned but you make the resounding jump to say that all vizios are not FALD. The party you forget to mention is that they only mentioned a select few of the lower end E series as using direct backlighting. Of course they mention the Vizio at series as a FALD set, but I guess that's a poor mans version too so it will be auto dismissed.


Just because you have 858595 zones doesn't mean jack if your algorithm that controls the FALD is crap. Doing more with less is what everyone should be trying to achieve. Now that VIzio had brought FALD to the masses where it can be reasonably afforded it seems that all of a sudden "it's not good enough". When looking at same priced competitors that are edge lit however in most cases I'd take FALD that has a decent algorithm.

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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
It seems you're selectively picking out parts as well...the P series isn't even mentioned but you make the resounding jump to say that all vizios are not FALD. The party you forget to mention is that they only mentioned a select few of the lower end E series as using direct backlighting. Of course they mention the Vizio at series as a FALD set, but I guess that's a poor mans version too so it will be auto dismissed.


Just because you have 858595 zones doesn't mean jack if your algorithm that controls the FALD is crap. Doing more with less is what everyone should be trying to achieve. Now that VIzio had brought FALD to the masses where it can be reasonably afforded it seems that all of a sudden "it's not good enough". When looking at same priced competitors that are edge lit however in most cases I'd take FALD that has a decent algorithm.

Sent from nowhere
I don't really waste any breath on criticism of Vizio 2014 TVs by those who have never even bothered to bring one home.

Direct versus full array is a somewhat meaningless distinction - direct generally means fewer individual LEDs positioned further back from the screen versus 'full-array' backlights, so when taken to the extreme of 1-LED-per-dimming-zone, a full-array backlight should (in theory at least) be able to support more LDZs than a 'direct' backlight.

If the number of actual LDZs is the same, there will be no difference in performance between the two -only TV thickness.

In terms of the entire discussion of how many LDZs it takes to qualify as a 'true' FALD, what a misguided concept. What matters is effective Contradt ratio, especially within-scene. Would you prefer to have an IPS panel with 128 LDZs like the AX900 or a good VA panel like the Vizio P70 with 'only' 72 LDZs? This is a very easy decision for anyone who really understands how a local dimming array (direct or full ) works and who has understood that the native contrast ratio of the VA-based P70 or more than 6 times greater than that of the IPS-based AX900.

FALD LRD/LCDs deliver poor black-level performance for one of three reasons:

1/ poor native contrast level- native contrast is so poor that FALD cannot compensate for that deficit (ie: AX900).

2/ FALD is not being applied aggressivly enough to improve effective contrast ratio much beyond what can be de,invented by Frame a Dimming - thisis where effective contrast ratio is similar to native contrast ratio, the UQ TVs being a good example.

3/ FALD is applied too aggressively so that visible halo/bloom is visible on content (I don't give a rat's *ss about credits) - this is where a larger zone count may provide an improvement.

One aspect of the Vizio P70/P60 that is largely responsible for it's fantastic black levels and FALD performance and which few appear to have commented on is it's class-leading native contrast ratio. The P70 contains a Sharp VA panel with native contrast ratio of 6500:1. With local dimming deactivated, it delivers black levels superior to almost any edge-lit pseudo-local dimming LED/LCD and better than any FALD LED/LCD based on an IPS panel (with native contrast ratios of ~1000:1).

Even though 70 local dimming zones may be considered modest by historical standards, married with class-leading native contrast ratio of thevSharp VA LCD panel and used judiciously to improve effective contrast ratio without introducing noticable halo/bloom, the Vizio FALD technology is very effective.

I have measured inter-scene contrast ratio on some especially chalanging scenes from Gravity where a 1" diameter white highlight measured 80% of peak at 80 cd/m2 and 1" regions of black space containing no stars from within the same scene measured 0.002cd/m2.

That represents an effective inter-scene contrast ratio of 40,000:1 which is reaching plasma-like territory and darned good for an LED/LCD (and especially one costing $2000 for 70" ).

Any edge-lit-pseuolocal-dimming LED/LCD will be limited to 2 columns of dimming zones. The M-Series has 4 columns of LDZs and the P-Series has 8 - to question whether those backlights constitue true FALD TVs or is a waste of breath.

The argument has a bit more merit when applied to the E-Series with only two columns, but I truly question whether the debate is worth the effort.

Vizio has shown that marrying Sharp's class-leading VA panels with a relatively modest (and cost-effective) FALD implementation can deliver performance that would have been unheard of 2 years ago.

Videophiles of any ilk should rejoice in that development.

Now we have Samsung following Vizio's 2014 lead and returning to FALD with the JS9500. It has double the LDZs of the 2014 Vizio P (128 instead of 64-72) but native panel contrast that appears less than a third of what the Vizio P delivers with it's Sharp VA panels.

Would you prefer to half twice as many dimming zones with a panel delivering less than half the native panel contrast? That would be a losing proposition...

Of course HDR with it's increased brightness will up the ante and more and smaller LDZs will be needed to deliver deep blacks and high effective contrast without introducing distracting halo/bloom, so I'll be looking forward to seeing what the Vizio ReferencevSeries can deliver (and no doubt at significantly lower cost than that of the Samsung JS9500).

But just in terms of basic 'normal' rec.709 FALD performance, it's a pity we'll never see a Shootout between the $7000 70" Sharp Elite and the $2000 2014 Vizio P70...
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post #29 of 122 Unread 03-22-2015, 11:11 PM
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A consistent black level retention is hard to achieve with any back light system,the lightning controller have their limits ,the black levels of the panel change depending of the amount of light that it needs for x scene ,also the blooming and halos that are introduce by the issue.

but anyone that watch tv under this environments , bias light ,dim lit room ,bright room ,controlled light rooms shouldn't have any problem enjoying this great tv's.

the only issue is in a dark environment.

I'm still debating if I should just trade my stable black levels over the new sets.

my viewing preference is in a dark environment so it will be a hard decision for me.

I have to said that they have made improvements and we will see more improvements over the years.
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post #30 of 122 Unread 03-23-2015, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
It seems you're selectively picking out parts as well...the P series isn't even mentioned but you make the resounding jump to say that all vizios are not FALD. The party you forget to mention is that they only mentioned a select few of the lower end E series as using direct backlighting. Of course they mention the Vizio at series as a FALD set, but I guess that's a poor mans version too so it will be auto dismissed.


Just because you have 858595 zones doesn't mean jack if your algorithm that controls the FALD is crap. Doing more with less is what everyone should be trying to achieve. Now that VIzio had brought FALD to the masses where it can be reasonably afforded it seems that all of a sudden "it's not good enough". When looking at same priced competitors that are edge lit however in most cases I'd take FALD that has a decent algorithm.

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The only LCd's that are (barely) acceptable to me are the Sharp Elite Pro and a few Sony FALDs. Good luck with your Vizio (in a darkroom).
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