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post #1 of 72 Old 05-24-2015, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Post 4K UHD TV 4:4:4 60Hz Capable Master List

2015/05/24

This list is desperately needed, because it's so difficult to round up this information.

For those not familiar with the issue, 4K TVs can make wonderful PC displays, but not many are compatible with 4:4:4 chroma subsampling at 60Hz and 4K resolution. If a display is not using this specification, text will appear blurry. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling for details.

There is some controversy surrounding which displays are truly compatible with this spec. So please chime in and make suggestions, provide some proof, either personal experience or links to other places where it has been tested.

I will update the list as displays are proven. Thanks for helping build the list!



2015/06/03

It has been mentioned that only the nVidia Geforce GTX 900 series has an HDMI 2.0 output, necessary for 4K/60/4:4:4.

If any information in this post is inaccurate, please say something and I will correct it.

Also, just a side note, but 60Hz sets are great for PC use - if you want to feed a 24p signal, you may want a 120Hz set. Some of the sets in the list are 60Hz.



THE LIST:

Samsung 2015
JU6500 (40"/48"/50"/55"/60"/65"/75")
JU6700 (40"/48"/55"/65", curved)
JU7100 (40"/50"/55"/60"/65"/75")
JU7500 (40"/48"/55"/65"/78", curved)
JS8500 (48"/55"/65")
JS9000 (48"/55"/65", curved)
JS9500 (65"/78"/88", curved)

Samsung 2014
UB8500 (49"/55") - needs confirmed
HU8550 (50"/55"/60"/65"/75"/85", TS01/TH02/TD01 revisions only) - needs confirmed

Sharp 2015
UD27U (60"/70")

LG 2014
UB8500 (49"/55")

Last edited by GrandPixel; 06-03-2015 at 10:06 PM.
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post #2 of 72 Old 05-25-2015, 03:52 AM
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Just look at this thread as someone has already started to compile a list

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1837209

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post #3 of 72 Old 05-25-2015, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cstmstyle View Post
Just look at this thread as someone has already started to compile a list

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1837209
I have seen this thread. There are sets on the list that are not compatible, and may be some missing. I think it's good to have a list here at AVS.
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post #4 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 07:42 AM
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If you're going to maintain it, then you could start by listing all JU6500 and above 2015 Samsung TVs.

What I'm wondering is about the Sharp 2015 models, they are priced around the Vizio M-series which don't do 444, so it's not likely at that price range the sharps do, although we never know.

No one has actually been able to confirm from a primary source (do not go by what only one random poster says on the internet, even on Hardforum). People make mistakes, several people got burned buying TVs that didn't actually do 444 when some guy thought it did. Probably because it was doing 422 and the quality was so good that he couldn't tell, but anyway.

If the Sharp LC43UB30U has HDMI 2.0 18gbps it should support 444. Most of the TVs that don't claim they are HDMI 2.0, and technically they are, but they are still using the 10gbps ports and shucking an jiving us to save literally a couple bucks.
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post #5 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 08:11 AM
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I can confirm that the 2015 Vizio M55 doesn’t do 4K @ 60 FPS 4:4:4 properly. There are sample pictures below that show that it isn’t 4:4:4. However, I also believe that the M55 CAN do 4K @ 30 FPS 4:4:4 which most of the reviews have said it can’t do.

When I hooked my computer to the TV at 4K @ 30 FPS it allows me to select YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB. In YCbCr 4:4:4 the artifacts are much less noticeable than in 4K @ 60 FPS mode. I tested this with both the red channel “Quick Brown Fox” text image and the Belle-Nuit Method. Sample images for both are below.

I also must say that I simply couldn’t discern this level of detail with my own eyes at any distance. I have perfect 20:20 vision without contacts or glasses(Yes I know I am lucky there) and I simply couldn’t see what these pictures demonstrate with my own eyes.

Personally I think 4:4:4 is over hyped but I am always for being open about what sets can and can’t do. I want each individual consumer to be able to make the decision for themselves and without this information that would be impossible to do. That is why I think having this thread is a good idea.
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Thing is, to evaluate 444 chroma sub sampling, one must have a source device that actually drives 444 @ 4K/60Hz. There is only one device that has this capability, the nvidia gtx900 series video card. This is why the chroma issue did not exist before 9/19/2014, the day nvidia released the gtx980. If you go to this thread:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/t...ll-rgb-output/

you'll see virtually everybody was returning false positives for 444@4K/60Hz early on because of the arbitrary/ambiguous "if you can read the red/blue text" metric. There's no such thing as a "test image". Any image that has at least one pixel that has color information (photo of the family dog, sunset at Maui, for instance) can be used to evaluate chroma. The purpose for these so-called "test images" is for communication, so that one can post a low res screen photo and "prove" that sub sampling is/isn't happening. If one is standing in front of the TV, then any image sourced at 3840x2160/60Hz can be used to evaluate 444 chroma. The "fox test" underscores the chroma so that even a low res screen photo can be evaluated by another person in cyberspace who is not standing in front of the TV.

Reading text is so arbitrary it's useless for chroma evaluation, so I have posted this non-text image:
http://i.imgur.com/w8W1VPP.png
Of course the image must not be zoomed or otherwise distorted, so open in MS Paint and <F11> to go full screen. If the gray/blue tick marks are 1:1 (exactly one blue tick for one gray tick) then no sub sampling/ 444 chroma. If the blue ticks are thicker and fewer in number than the gray, that's a positive for subsampling.
This image cannot return a false positive or negative, but if the gray ticks are other than 1 pixel wide, then the image has been changed and the image is useless as an evaluation tool. If any of the four yellow squares are missing, the image is zoomed.
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post #7 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I also must say that I simply couldn’t discern this level of detail with my own eyes at any distance.

Personally I think 4:4:4 is over hyped
Here is an actual hi res screen photo taken with a 12 mega pixel camera:

http://i.imgur.com/aYM9b6v.png
Ideally, this photo should be viewed on a 4K monitor of 55" or so, but even an Iphone can give an indication of just how bad sub sampling can be.

Samsungs UNxxHU8550 line originally did 444 chroma @4K/60hz. At various times in 2014 (depending on screen size) samsung discontinued the HU8550, and at the same time, released a completely different/inferior TV that sub samples chroma. Thing is, samsung gave the new TV the same model code as the discontinued HU8550. Samsung did however give the new TV a different version number than the original HU8550. In effect, the version number is a part of the model code, but retailers typically don't bother with publishing the version number, so the customer doesn't know what TV he is getting for his money when he buys a xxHU8550. If he's lucky, he'll get a full color 444 chroma cabable TV versions TS01/TH01/TD01, but more likely a sub sampling TV that does half res 1920x2160 resolution color.
Needless to say, the 444 chroma TVs are almost impossible to find, but I know of one source that has a few, PM me for details.
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post #8 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 09:41 AM
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If you know what you're looking for, it's not that hard to spot subsampling happening, either in vertical, horizontal, or both directions.

All you need is 1-pixel wide lines, non-antialiased off-white text, whatever, contrasting with the background. The subsampled image will have extra trailing spots to the sides and/or the top of the edges, as your pictures show.
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post #9 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roller11 View Post
Thing is, to evaluate 444 chroma sub sampling, one must have a source device that actually drives 444 @ 4K/60Hz. There is only one device that has this capability, the nvidia gtx900 series video card. This is why the chroma issue did not exist before 9/19/2014, the day nvidia released the gtx980...
FWIW ... Nvidia cards like the gtx series are "graphics" cards. "Video" cards from Blackmagic Designs, Kona, etc. have had 444 for several years.
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post #10 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post
FWIW ... Nvidia cards like the gtx series are "graphics" cards. "Video" cards from Blackmagic Designs, Kona, etc. have had 444 for several years.
Right, I sometimes don't make the distinction because people commonly call their computer display devices "video" cards. The proper label is "VGA adapter".

To be clear, the 444 we're talking about here is @ 3840x2160 @ 60 hz screen refresh rate.
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post #11 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roller11 View Post
Here is an actual hi res screen photo taken with a 12 mega pixel camera:

http://i.imgur.com/aYM9b6v.png
Ideally, this photo should be viewed on a 4K monitor of 55" or so, but even an Iphone can give an indication of just how bad sub sampling can be.
I have never encountered an image that looked this bad. There must be something else wrong in that situation. Perhaps it is doing some scaling as well. The non-4:4:4 image never looked that bad when I tested it.
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post #12 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I have never encountered an image that looked this bad. There must be something else wrong in that situation. Perhaps it is doing some scaling as well. The non-4:4:4 image never looked that bad when I tested it.
I would strongly suspect something in addition to sampling is going on there.
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post #13 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post
FWIW ... Nvidia cards like the gtx series are "graphics" cards. "Video" cards from Blackmagic Designs, Kona, etc. have had 444 for several years.
Since we're being arbitrarily pedantic without a technical basis, a Matrox G200 "graphics card" from the late 90s I had definitely did 4:4:4 at fairly high resolutions (more pixels than 1080p) it is nothing particularly special. Throwing away color wasn't the norm for PCs, they had been adding to it for the previous two decades.

What is still currently unique about the 900 series Geforces is that they output 60hz 4k with full chroma over the finally released consumer HDMI 2.0 port. Unforunately many TVs fail to disclose they have only have a bandwidth crippled version of HDMI "2.0", because bullet points are in full control of marketing, not engineering.

PCs have been capable of full chroma (we just call it "regular colors" or "readable text") while at 4k60hz since 2010, but only via displayport 1.2 which is still largely ignored by the consumer product cartels despite lacking royalty fees and having superior bandwidth. Yet in 2015 it is ok to ship flagship consumer products with partially implemented hdmi inputs...

FWIW OP, these 2015 samsung models have been confirmed by various 9x0 owners:
JU6500, 6700, 7100, 7500
JS8500, 9000, 9500

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post #14 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 01:10 PM
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Ah yes, the Matrox G200 - brings back memories Do I remember correctly that it was actually somewhat unique as it was both a GFX card and a Video Card ...
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post #15 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 02:45 PM
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Chroma subsampling is an HDMI only thing, as far as I'm aware. I'd never heard of it before Blurays came out, which is the first thing that was widespread that used it. Although that was r*tarded, they stored the Blurays in 420 on the disc, then the player upscaled it to 422, then the tv upscaled the 422 it received to 444 (since HDMI 1.x only supported 422 or 444 officially, not 420).

Most 1080p TVs didn't care because they usually accepted RGB signals for the most part. At least for the past several years. My 2008 panny 1080p plasma accepted RGB which is the same thing as 444 except in a different colorspace.

In other "news", I tried asking the person at Best Buy website about the Sharp Aquos 43 inch model if it supported 444 and she said nobody knew. Gee, thanks. What a bunch of useless people over there. They can't even tell you details about the products you want to buy.
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post #16 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I have never encountered an image that looked this bad.
Have you ever encountered the FOX test? That's what you are looking at here.
Quote:
There must be something else wrong in that situation. Perhaps it is doing some scaling as well. The non-4:4:4 image never looked that bad when I tested it.
There's nothing else going on here, the two pics are of the same image. All I did was change the refresh rate from 4k/30Hz to 4K/60Hz, didn't change the camera focus or anything else. By design, 4K/30hz = 444, 4K/60hz = 422.
The image was sourced by my gtx980, display was my samsung 65hu8550 version TS02/ nova tek chipset which I no longer own.
There is no scaling, nothing "wrong with that situation". If there were, it would show up on the 30Hz image. It is purely an apples to apples 422 vs 444 comparison with the only variable refresh rate. If it were scaled, you would not see distinct individual pixels in the 30Hz pic.
This is a portion of the famous so-called "FOX test" many people offer up as proof photos.

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Chroma subsampling is an HDMI only thing, as far as I'm aware.
Chroma sub sampling has been around since the 1950s.
Quote:
they stored the Blurays in 420 on the disc, then the player upscaled it to 422, then the tv upscaled the 422 it received to 444 (since HDMI 1.x only supported 422 or 444 officially, not 420).
You can't 'upscale' chroma like you can upscale spatial resolution. The color information lost in the source image is lost forever, can't be retrieved.

Quote:
RGB which is the same thing as 444 except in a different colorspace.
sub sampling is a compression technique which has nothing to do with color space. Techique is same whether in RGB or YCbCr color space. RGB can be 420, 422, 441, 444, what have you.
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post #18 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 04:33 PM
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Chroma sub sampling has been around since the 1950s.

You can't 'upscale' chroma like you can upscale spatial resolution. The color information lost in the source image is lost forever, can't be retrieved.


sub sampling is a compression technique which has nothing to do with color space. Techique is same whether in RGB or YCbCr color space. RGB can be 420, 422, 441, 444, what have you.
How on earth is someone going to do chroma substampling on an RGB image without first separating the chroma and luma channels, pray tell?

Man, you really don't understand how this works, do you. Sorry to be blunt, but I have doubts as to whether you even know what a sample of an image is. When you display a 540p image on your 1080p monitor, you are upscaling, correct? What happens when you take a 1080p source image, downscale it to 540p, then display it fullscreen on your 1080p monitor? You are...wait for it...SUB SAMPLING the original image.

To do any kind of operation on the chroma channels in an image, you FIRST have to convert RGB -> YUV and THEN you can take the UV components and down-rez those independently of the Y = luma channel, which remains untouched and at full resolution.

Then when you re-constitute the RGB pixels for final display, you take whatever your Y is at each pixel, (1920x1080 of them, on a Bluray), and whatever your CbCr (= UV) is at (typically 420 so therefore 810x540), sampling from a lower resolution image but using bilinear filtering (or something else, like Jinc) to maintain the same pixel coordinates but extracting 1080p worth of information, in other words .....wait for it....upscaling (typically 1/4 of 1080p, so half in each dimension).

You upscale the UV channels when you sample them so the x and y coordinates you are sampling from correspond to their original positions in the original 1920x1080 UV channels. Downscaling then upscaling again is equivalent in meaning and effect and mathematics as subsampling. In fact, that's exactly where the compression comes in. The UV channels are stored on disc in 540p. So they need to be upscaled. The overall process of down-rez then upscale is called subsampling.

The values you get are where the term "subsampling" comes from. You sample from only 1/2 or a 1/4 of the original values, since you have discarded them in order to reduce the frame size. I've implemented YCbCr frame buffers and know exactly how they are packed, have you? The top part of the frame is the 1080p Y values, then the bottom section is the Cb and Cr values in a single sub-frame, packed within the same envelope.

You can and absolutely MUST upscale the chroma to get an RGB image out of a chroma down-sampled.

The term chroma subsampling is indeed a compression technique, and it has everything to do with color space. Namely RGB vs YUV. Y = luma, UV = chroma. RGB is a color space in that sense (in computer graphics), and so is YUV. They aren't the same color space. Perhaps the terminology is tripping us up here, but as a 3D programmer that's the term we use in computer graphics.

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post #19 of 72 Old 05-26-2015, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
How is someone going to do chroma substampling on an RGB image? ...
Chroma sub sampling is done after the lumina and chroma values have been determined, whether those values are RGB color space or YCbCr.
If you really want to understand how chroma sub sampling works, wikipedia has a very easy to understand explanation, with graphics. Even a novice can grasp the basics.
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post #20 of 72 Old 05-27-2015, 02:21 PM
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You can't 'upscale' chroma like you can upscale spatial resolution. The color information lost in the source image is lost forever, can't be retrieved.
You can most definitely upscale chroma-only buffers, like any other image. Yes, information is lost any time you downscale then re-upscale. That's why 420 chroma subsampling is called a lossy compression scheme. It's a simple one and a smart one, though, because human eyes aren't as sensitive to minor local changes in color.

420 on Bluray downscales the chroma buffers, stores them in a separate subsection of the frame below the luma data, then when the display receives this YUV 420 buffer it takes the chroma, upscales it (or uses bilinear filtering to sample it, same thing, or same net effect), and reconstitutes the RGB full resolution image out of it with the luma in a reverse YUV -> RGB matrix operation.

Downscaling chroma = same thing as subsampling chroma. Same exact thing.

It's the downscaling of the chroma buffer that's saving the space on disc in 420 YUV encoded video.

Hope this makes it clear. Please, show a little humility. You're saying all kinds of misleading and utterly wrong stuff that makes it clear you don't understand this topic anywhere near as well as you believe you do.

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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
you don't understand this topic anywhere near as well as you believe you do.
If I'm saying 'wrong stuff', then it's a matter of terminology, semantics. My screen observations under magnification and close-up screen photos are 100% in agreement with Wikipedia's tutorial, so perhaps wiki is also 'wrong'. As long as my direct observations are same as Wiki's, I'm sticking with Wiki's version of sub sampling.
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post #22 of 72 Old 05-28-2015, 05:01 AM
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Nothing I wrote in any way contradicts or is contradicted by, the wikipedia page on this topic.

When you are trying to discuss tech, semantics matter, and accurate terminology matters.

It's not my problem if you can't recognize or comprehend the basic fact that subsampling anything is equivalent to downscaling it then sampling the downscaled image at sub-pixel coordinates. Do you know what a texture LOD is? It's which mip level you are accessing. Chroma subsampling is equivalent to sampling LOD 1 (after discarding LOD 0 to save memory) at a given texel coordinate. We do this kind of LOD-level sub-sampling stuff ALL the time in computer games. All...the....time.

420 is just making two mips of the chroma buffer, discarding mip 0, and sampling LOD 1 exclusively, at the same texel coord that you would have at LOD 0. That's it. The algorithm is dead simple. And exactly as the wiki page explains in every way.

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post #23 of 72 Old 05-28-2015, 12:47 PM
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Nothing I wrote in any way contradicts or is contradicted by, the wikipedia page on this topic.
Exactly, and same is true for me, nothing you said contradicts anything I said. That's why I couldn't understand your false claims of "wrong stuff" and "you're clueless". I said just three things:
1. chroma sub sampling has been around since the 50's
2. The pre-subsampling values can't be retrieved after the TV sub samples them.
3. An RGB color space video stream can be sub sampled by the TV.

None of this is incorrect, and this is all I said.

My posting sytle is non-combative. If someone says something I disagree with, I don't attack them. For example, if someone said "Edgar Allen Poe died in 1858" I would not tell them they are wrong.
I would simply respond
" Edgar Allen Poe died in 1849".

I would not respond
"Wrong! Edgar Allen Poe died in 1849. Stop posting wrong stuff!"
Do you see the difference? People in the thread dislike bickering, makes them uncomfortable.
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post #24 of 72 Old 05-29-2015, 08:58 AM
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Are we done arguing over nothing?

Let's move on.

To get back on topic, it looks like the low-priced Sharp Aquos 2015 models don't support 444 at UHD 60, making them unsuitable for computer monitor use.

That leaves only Samsung, Philips, and maybe Hisense's new 599 50 inch TV at Walmart.

Does anyone have any info about chroma on that one? I need to buy either a TV or a monitor soon to code on but if I can save a few hundred dollars, that would be great. I expect it to be a cheap panel which means compromised image quality, but for the price, to get that size, that could be really good.

There's also Seiki's 12 bit TVs coming out soon. I wonder if they'll put Samsung JU6500 on the low end of prices, out of the running. I'd love to have a native 12 bit panel with DisplayPort 1.3 and get 444 at the same time. Not really that interested in spending a lot of money on an LCD TV, but 12 bit color would be a huge improvement, even for monitor use.
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post #25 of 72 Old 06-03-2015, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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sorry for the delay, updated the list, and thanks for all who gave input

Are there any LG sets?
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post #26 of 72 Old 06-03-2015, 08:42 PM
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sorry for the delay, updated the list, and thanks for all who gave input

Are there any LG sets?
i own the 55 lg ub8500 only hdmi 3 can do 4k 60hz 4:4:4. it was confirmed by Banzhii in that ub8500 thread post #204 .both the 49/55 are capable, i suspect the other lg 4k sets are capable as well.

Last edited by Rf13; 06-03-2015 at 08:51 PM.
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post #27 of 72 Old 06-03-2015, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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i own the 55 lg ub8500 only hdmi 3 can do 4k 60hz 4:4:4. it was confirmed by Banzhii in that ub8500 thread post #204 .both the 49/55 are capable, i suspect the other lg 4k sets are capable as well.
thanks, I assume UB8200 is not capable?

also, anyone know about 2015 LG models? UF7600/UF7700/UF8500/UF9500?
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post #28 of 72 Old 06-03-2015, 10:17 PM
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thanks, I assume UB8200 is not capable?

also, anyone know about 2015 LG models? UF7600/UF7700/UF8500/UF9500?
Yes the ub8200 is as well as the ub9500, and 9800. I don't know about the 2015 models, but if the port label says hdmi 2.0 10-bit. then it's likely they're capable like the 2014 models.
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post #29 of 72 Old 06-08-2015, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Rf13 View Post
Yes the ub8200 is as well as the ub9500, and 9800. I don't know about the 2015 models, but if the port label says hdmi 2.0 10-bit. then it's likely they're capable like the 2014 models.
UB8200 is NOT 4:4:4 capable from everywhere else I've read.
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post #30 of 72 Old 06-08-2015, 05:13 PM
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What LG 2015 models are 4:4:4 capable? This information is impossible to find.
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