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post #1 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Most new TVs seem crappy

After doing a lot of reading over on Rtings.com, it seems to me that most new TVs are crap. Now keep in mind, I usually watch movies in a dark room, so flaws like clouding, flashlighting and uniformity issues are more noticeable. For example, here's their black uniformity test (scroll down for photos):

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-...-flashlighting

Not counting the OLEDs (they seem to have other issues), hardly any of the screenshots I see are acceptable. On many of them, the reviewer says "great black uniformity, we hardly noticed any issues at all", but when I look at the photo, there are obvious clouds. Many of these edge-lit TVs seems to use "local" dimming to conceal these flaws, but it most cases, it doesn't seem to be a great solution.

Moving on to gray uniformity...
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-...een-effect-dse

Again, most of these screenshots look god awful.

Who cares about 4K, smart features and all that other hype, when picture quality is subpar My only guess is that, most people are watching these TVs in lit rooms, and don't notice these kinds of issues.

With plasma gone, is there really any TV that excels at movie viewing in the dark, besides ridiculously-priced OLEDs?
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post #2 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 03:03 PM
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They test black uniformity with local dimming disabled. I have clouding on my Samsung JS9000 with local dimming turned off but when it's on, it almost disappears. When watching movies in a dark room it's not visible at all.

Keep that in mind, they don't test in real world conditions IMO. For example the Sony X940c(not reviewed on rtings) has black levels on par with top of the line plasmas when local dimming is turned on from what I heard here from owners.
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post #3 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 03:08 PM
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Samsung's marketing scheme for 2016 is build around the fact that they claim people watch TV in brightly lit rooms. So TVs are going to be brighter and probably have even more uniformity issues.
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post #4 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipeUout View Post
Samsung's marketing scheme for 2016 is build around the fact that they claim people watch TV in brightly lit rooms. So TVs are going to be brighter and probably have even more uniformity issues.
Not necessarily. Again when you enable local dimming things change.
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post #5 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SnipeUout View Post
Samsung's marketing scheme for 2016 is build around the fact that they claim people watch TV in brightly lit rooms. So TVs are going to be brighter and probably have even more uniformity issues.
That's interesting. I would be one of those users with no dark or media den to speak of. I always have a light on somewhere (2 little kids always running around) so even watching a movie at night its not cinema black. Heck i would wager 80% of my TV viewing is during the evening (weekends). The only upside to my lack of nice media viewing is i probably wouldnt be annoyed with a majority of issues people address here. Average user ftw
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post #6 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
They test black uniformity with local dimming disabled. I have clouding on my Samsung JS9000 with local dimming turned off but when it's on, it almost disappears. When watching movies in a dark room it's not visible at all.

Keep that in mind, they don't test in real world conditions IMO. For example the Sony X940c(not reviewed on rtings) has black levels on par with top of the line plasmas when local dimming is turned on from what I heard here from owners.
I was wondering about this. So basically, they're testing worst case. It's good there's improvement with it on, but from what I've read, "local" dimming isn't really possible with edge-lit TVs; it's really only done in zones, which leads to some artifacts. Guess it's better than nothing. I dunno, I'm just not very impressed by the latest offerings in the TV market. I'm sure in a few years, OLED will have the kinks worked out, and hopefully be cheaper, too
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post #7 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 03:34 PM
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Sharp is coming out with some HDR Full Array sets that are at a decent price. Hopefully they will be good and give Samsung / Sony a kick in the rear. No excuse to only have full array in there most expensive tv's only. Total BS..also hopefully Vizio will have an affordable HDR set this year.

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post #8 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SnipeUout View Post
Samsung's marketing scheme for 2016 is build around the fact that they claim people watch TV in brightly lit rooms. So TVs are going to be brighter and probably have even more uniformity issues.
That's why a lot of us use bias lights because a totally dark room is not agreeable to a lot of people. The proper use of a bias light can actually accentuate the pq and you still have just enough light to walk around without bumping into a table We have to remember that we are but a small percentage of the overall buying public who couldn't care less for HDMI 2.0, HDR, etc. They just want a bright, retina burning picture with lots of colors.
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post #9 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
That's why a lot of us use bias lights because a totally dark room is not agreeable to a lot of people. The proper use of a bias light can actually accentuate the pq and you still have just enough light to walk around without bumping into a table We have to remember that we are but a small percentage of the overall buying public who couldn't care less for HDMI 2.0, HDR, etc. They just want a bright, retina burning picture with lots of colors.
Agree. Sometimes it's not fun being the minority
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post #10 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipeUout View Post
Samsung's marketing scheme for 2016 is build around the fact that they claim people watch TV in brightly lit rooms. So TVs are going to be brighter and probably have even more uniformity issues.
True that...........

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post #11 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou View Post
I was wondering about this. So basically, they're testing worst case. It's good there's improvement with it on, but from what I've read, "local" dimming isn't really possible with edge-lit TVs; it's really only done in zones, which leads to some artifacts. Guess it's better than nothing. I dunno, I'm just not very impressed by the latest offerings in the TV market. I'm sure in a few years, OLED will have the kinks worked out, and hopefully be cheaper, too
Pretty much worst case yes and for my part I have no complaints about my JS9000. I didn't think FALD was worth an extra $1k at the time to step up to the JS9500 when that was what the OLED sets were going for which I chose to avoid for the time being.
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post #12 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
They just want a bright, retina burning picture with lots of colors.
I'm emerging from the Dark Ages, needing to transition from my Samsung 61" DLP (love it!) to a TV that I don't want to look like a glossy intense computer screen. I want a more real look - colors to look more like what they are - film - and am baffled by how I'm going to get close to what I want.

I want the impossible: a matte screen.
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post #13 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 07:59 PM
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I'm emerging from the Dark Ages, needing to transition from my Samsung 61" DLP (love it!) to a TV that I don't want to look like a glossy intense computer screen. I want a more real look - colors to look more like what they are - film - and am baffled by how I'm going to get close to what I want.

I want the impossible: a matte screen.
You have the ability to dim the back light and calibrate the colors don't you? Though if you watch HDR programming it will be bright, it's supposed to be that way.
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post #14 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 08:07 PM
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I want the impossible: a matte screen.
I hear ya. have an older LG with a matte screen so I'm not sure what we'll do when it becomes time to buy a new tv.
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post #15 of 91 Old 01-19-2016, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by snipeuout View Post
samsung's marketing scheme for 2016 is build around the fact that they claim people watch tv in brightly lit rooms. So tvs are going to be brighter and probably have even more uniformity issues.
agree! -_-
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post #16 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by SnipeUout View Post
Samsung's marketing scheme for 2016 is build around the fact that they claim people watch TV in brightly lit rooms. So TVs are going to be brighter and probably have even more uniformity issues.
That doesn't sound great. I've seen multiple js series up close, though mostly it's on the curved models with a thin panel, you can see some serious issues near the edges that extends about a half inch into the panel.
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post #17 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 12:49 AM
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I agree that quality control is sloppy at best these days with televisions. Far too many panels have far too many issues - multiple clouding areas, flashlighting, dirty screen effect, blotches - I'm amazed that so many people find this acceptable.

Heck, the JS8500 I'm considering seems to have a very common problem with the bottom or top bezel being bent at the corner. Seriously, how is this allowed to happen? Honestly, from the looks of those clouding comparisons, the JS8500 seems to have one of the better panels, at least in the sample they had.

And I don't hold it against rtings for not enabling dimming during their comparisons. While I agree that dimming should be active for calibration as it's pretty much a must to have dimming enabled to watch these sets, I think leaving it off for the clouding comparisons is a good idea to show us what the panels really look like. I don't consider dimming an ideal solution, as dimming just "hides" a lot of the panel issues. They are still there, and shouldn't be. And dimming only helps so much. Depending on the severity of the issues, dimming may not help much.
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post #18 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 08:18 AM
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OP does kind of have a point. It's really funny when I compare the latest and greatest to an old Sony XBR 36" CRT I still rock in my basement, which was amazingly capable of 720p/1080i! One of the last high end tube TVs. When playing something over component cables on that old beast, when playing the same exact source material on a brand new fancy TV, there is no comparison. My decade+ old tube tv absolutely demolishes most of the new stuff when it comes to color, uniformity, black levels, etc.

I kept that old TV to play old console video games on, but now it's by far my most preferred thing to watch SD material or anything that's low end HD stuff. My wife hates it because it's like 350 lbs and takes up an enormous amount of space, but I do love that old thing.
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post #19 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post
I agree that quality control is sloppy at best these days with televisions. Far too many panels have far too many issues - multiple clouding areas, flashlighting, dirty screen effect, blotches - I'm amazed that so many people find this acceptable.

Heck, the JS8500 I'm considering seems to have a very common problem with the bottom or top bezel being bent at the corner. Seriously, how is this allowed to happen? Honestly, from the looks of those clouding comparisons, the JS8500 seems to have one of the better panels, at least in the sample they had.

And I don't hold it against rtings for not enabling dimming during their comparisons. While I agree that dimming should be active for calibration as it's pretty much a must to have dimming enabled to watch these sets, I think leaving it off for the clouding comparisons is a good idea to show us what the panels really look like. I don't consider dimming an ideal solution, as dimming just "hides" a lot of the panel issues. They are still there, and shouldn't be. And dimming only helps so much. Depending on the severity of the issues, dimming may not help much.
I agree 100%. Shopping for TVs nowadays is not fun. I had a Samsung B750 that I bought back in 2008, and besides for some minor clouding, it was a pretty solid TV.

I've actually given up on TVs for now, and decided to go the projector route. I'm having one issue now, but once I get that sorted out, things will be great. It's really nice to see a totally black screen without flashlighting and clouding. Overall, it seems to be a much better choice for dark-room viewing.
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post #20 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Montucky View Post
OP does kind of have a point. It's really funny when I compare the latest and greatest to an old Sony XBR 36" CRT I still rock in my basement, which was amazingly capable of 720p/1080i! One of the last high end tube TVs. When playing something over component cables on that old beast, when playing the same exact source material on a brand new fancy TV, there is no comparison. My decade+ old tube tv absolutely demolishes most of the new stuff when it comes to color, uniformity, black levels, etc.

I kept that old TV to play old console video games on, but now it's by far my most preferred thing to watch SD material or anything that's low end HD stuff. My wife hates it because it's like 350 lbs and takes up an enormous amount of space, but I do love that old thing.
Funny you mention CRT. I was thinking the same thing yesterday. You couldn't find a CRT screen with such poor uniformity no matter how hard you tried, even 30 years ago. Sure there were differences in image quality with better CRT screens, but even the cheapest of sets had uniform screens. You certainly didn't have to deal with things like these LCD panels have - edge bleeding, blotches, dirty screen. So even though the images can't even come close to what panels can do now, at least the screens were uniform and consistent - they looked good, from any angle, too. Even a few hundred dollars got you a fine looking screen, no research necessary. It's a nightmare these days shopping for a tv, and it's not because of all the wonderful choices, it's the opposite - trying to find the least crappy one.

Sure they look good with sports and bright demos. How about at night with any movie on that features a dark scene (like half of all movies do)? That's where they fall apart badly.
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post #21 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 08:48 AM
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Sure they look good with sports and bright demos. How about at night with any movie on that features a dark scene (like half of all movies do)? That's where they fall apart badly.
YES!!! SO true!
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post #22 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montucky View Post
OP does kind of have a point. It's really funny when I compare the latest and greatest to an old Sony XBR 36" CRT I still rock in my basement, which was amazingly capable of 720p/1080i! One of the last high end tube TVs. When playing something over component cables on that old beast, when playing the same exact source material on a brand new fancy TV, there is no comparison. My decade+ old tube tv absolutely demolishes most of the new stuff when it comes to color, uniformity, black levels, etc.

I kept that old TV to play old console video games on, but now it's by far my most preferred thing to watch SD material or anything that's low end HD stuff. My wife hates it because it's like 350 lbs and takes up an enormous amount of space, but I do love that old thing.
Those old Sony XBR sets were incredible. The sound on those was astonishing, too. The simulated surround was amazing and could throw sound across the room. Destroys the sound on these wafer thin panels. They were beasts, though, in terms of size and weight. A friend of mine bought one several years ago in the used market.
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post #23 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post
Those old Sony XBR sets were incredible. The sound on those was astonishing, too. The simulated surround was amazing and could throw sound across the room. Destroys the sound on these wafer thin panels. They were beasts, though, in terms of size and weight. A friend of mine bought one several years ago in the used market.
Definitely. The sound that comes out of that thing is very impressive (for a tv). Great bass even. Of course, they had a heck of a lot more room to play with. It's actually impressive the sound they squeeze out of flat panels these days, but yeah, there definitely is no comparison to the old XBRs. I lucked out with mine. A few years ago, a caretaker of a huge home in the area actually gave it to me for free when the homeowners replaced every tv in the home. My wife was not pleased when I lugged that thing home. Haha. So worth it. Man, I love that TV. Fingers crossed that it never breaks.
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post #24 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 10:22 AM
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You can't use Rtings camera capture to judge clouding. Cameras have much higher sensitivity than human eyes so you see more clouding.

In person, when viewing at night you don't see that much clouding. Yes, I have done this at home. Took a picture in complete darkness of my TV there are more clouding in picture than I can see in person.

CRT looks better? lol you guys are really funny.
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post #25 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 10:46 AM
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You can't use Rtings camera capture to judge clouding. Cameras have much higher sensitivity than human eyes so you see more clouding.

In person, when viewing at night you don't see that much clouding. Yes, I have done this at home. Took a picture in complete darkness of my TV there are more clouding in picture than I can see in person.

CRT looks better? lol you guys are really funny.
I don't remember saying CRT screens looked better. Read my post again. I quote myself:

"So even though the images can't even come close to what panels can do now, at least the screens were uniform and consistent".

All I said was CRT screens were more uniform, which is a fact. Panels these days are a mess in terms of uniformity. If they weren't we wouldn't be seeing terms like clouding, flashlighting, and dirty screen effect being used regularly with all makes and models.
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post #26 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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True. When I took a photo of my LCD, it did look a little worse than reality. However, I could still see it with my eyes on dark scenes. I find even a little clouding to be very distracting. And gray uniformity? That's even worse on most of these TVs. I've found that the rtings photos of gray screens match pretty well to what I saw on my TV with my eyes—atrocious.
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post #27 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 11:17 AM
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In the last 14 years, I've owned a Mitsubishi HD RPTV, Sony SXRD (XBR1), Panasonic Plasma, Samsung F9000, and Samsung JS9500. The first three were professionally calibrated. The Samsung's were "close enough". The UHD Samsung F9000 was an improvement over the Panasonic Plasma and the FALD JS9500 is a further significant improvement. Especially when viewing UHD HDR material, I believe the JS9500 picture is far beyond anything on the plasma.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, mine is based on displays, in my home, that have been viewed over an extended period of time.
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post #28 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 11:25 AM
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definitely seems that way on paper. Go to a store.

Find your 'mom and pop' AV store if your lucky enough to have one. I've noticed most issues I have with screens are less noticeable in the middle of an explosion or something. I have greater issues with sound...a nice sound setup makes a larger difference to me than video. I'm honestly not sure what I'll do in a few months when I look to upgrade, I really want an OLED...I'm hopeful they will have worked out a few things in 2016.

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post #29 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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To me, stores are pointless for viewing TVs. I might as well buy sight unseen. The store is so bright, and the TVs are all in torch mode, so critical viewing is impossible. I could see a specialty AV store with viewing rooms would be better, but those seem rare nowadays.
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post #30 of 91 Old 01-20-2016, 12:01 PM
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With plasma gone, is there really any TV that excels at movie viewing in the dark, besides ridiculously-priced OLEDs?
There is a reason why they do this, what good is a great TV that lasts 10+ years when theses companies need to feed their investors. They trickle out little pieces of the puzzle every couple of years and then they change the rules just as they are "perfecting" the last one. In the last 10-15 years everybody sees it but can't do much about it as the industry has gone from CRT>DLP>Plasma>LCD>OLED>Laser>and maybe Holograms are next. Yesterday I had a large trash pickup, my 10 year old Mits DLP 720p, a dinosaur I know, but at least I skipped over a couple gens... ha-ha

My replacement is a projector that mixes some of the old with some of the new, so maybe I can hold out for the holograms in the next 10 years

Denon 4200+Sony 2ch receiver=5.1.4, Energy 5.2 Atmos sats, Energy 8.2 sub, JVC Rs-500, ML LX16 for LCR, Monoprice CL2 12/2, Amazon 4k HDMI
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