Official Samsung KS8000/KS8500 Owners Thread - Page 886 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26551 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf7002 View Post
I agree, something is being lost in translation. If, just like you pointed out, an HDR movie doesn't trigger the HDR profile in Game Mode but does in Movie Mode, and a console doesn't trigger the HDR profile in Game Mode but does in Movie Mode, then I tend not to think the game is "missing something", since it has everything it needs outside of Game Mode. It's Game Mode itself that isn't responding the way we would expect/want it to.
Agreed. And since it can auto-detect the change from using BT 1886 (what we currently call Gamma)* for SDR to ST 2084 (the PQ EOTF) for HDR - and it already auto-changes the gamut - then it's certain that Game mode doesn't turn off too much processing in order to be able to auto-detect the changes in the incoming signal.

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And thanks for clarifying again that Game Mode does indeed process HDR properly. I've started referring to the separate HDR picture settings as a profile rather than a mode, hoping to not add to the confusion.
Excellent idea, thank you sir! Profile is a good one. So some Modes have two Profiles.

The other one that gets called a "mode" is the "Input type is set to a PC" one.

* I really like the way that the 2017 models have Gamma as a heading and then the 3 "flavours" - HLG, ST 2084 and BT 1886 - as the options inside that heading. It does mean people will have to learn that BT 1886 is the SDR gamma they've used all their lives, but that's a minor thing, I really like the way it makes it much clearer that the ST 2084 system is the HDR equivalent.

We know that on our 2016 models that when processing HDR, the "Dynamic Contrast" control behaves completely differently (to how it does when processing SDR) and it changes the EOTF curve in some way to make HDR images look brighter. At the same time, we've got this other control called "Gamma" which can't be adjusting BT1886 (because that system isn't in use) so it must be being re-purposed and *also* be tweaking the same EOTF curve, but presumably in a different way.
It's all rather opaque.

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post #26552 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 02:31 PM
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My program guide doesn't display when pressed using my Samsung remote. I have OTA tv only. Any fixes?

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post #26553 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninguno View Post
Hi, I was reading the pdf guide of first post. It suggest getting HDMI 4k 2.2 cables.

Is this the correct cable for that? I'm planning to use it to connect my android media player that support 4k/hdmi 2.0, not for ps4 or xbox.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DI8A4Hu

Thanks
Yes, but I personally would go with the Amazon cables. https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-.../dp/B014I8TC4E

My current KS800 settings. PM:Movie, BL:13, B:45, C:85, S:0, C:40, T:G48/R52, DCV:Off, AMP:Off, SLED:Low, FM:Auto1, BL: Auto, DC:Off, CT:Warm1, Gam:0, CS:Auto
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post #26554 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Shankenstein View Post
Every game I have played so far on the Pro has automatically triggered HDR in game mode.


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How can you tell if the TV is properly detecting and decoding HDR in game mode?

Or are you just saying that the backlight maxes out etc.

@mrtickleuk how can you tell that ST2084 is engaged while playing a game?

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post #26555 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post
How can you tell if the TV is properly detecting and decoding HDR in game mode?

Or are you just saying that the backlight maxes out etc.

@mrtickleuk how can you tell that ST2084 is engaged while playing a game?
I guess I am assuming with the flicker of my and the banner showing HDR content is being viewed.
Yes, backlight is maxed and smart LED is set to high.
I have tried turning off HDR in the actual menu of Horizon, Infamous and Uncharted could instantly notice the difference.
As far as I know it is decoding.


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post #26556 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 06:06 PM
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I had my back panel repaired today and it took longer for them to drive from their prior appointment than to fix the TV.
There is tape in the four corners of the display and two long strips running along the top and bottom of the display.

The issue with mine was a long metal rod that attaches the back panel to the body. They had installed mine backwards at the factory, so the tape was all that held it in place.
Very satisfied with my experience.

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post #26557 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr.Shankenstein View Post
I had my back panel repaired today and it took longer for them to drive from their prior appointment than to fix the TV.
There is tape in the four corners of the display and two long strips running along the top and bottom of the display.

The issue with mine was a long metal rod that attaches the back panel to the body. They had installed mine backwards at the factory, so the tape was all that held it in place.
Very satisfied with my experience.

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So it sounds as though the panel separation problem is human assembly error versus design error (i.e., it should not separate if put together as designed.) As that how it seemed? If so that is good news for the TV series overall and likely means if fix, it should stay together.

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post #26558 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post

We know that on our 2016 models that when processing HDR, the "Dynamic Contrast" control behaves completely differently (to how it does when processing SDR) and it changes the EOTF curve in some way to make HDR images look brighter.
That likely means that it is pushing the nits up from what the content is, which would probably mean that bright peaks will clip and therefore defeat one of the primary difference makers in HDR.

It would probably be as the different viewing modes on the SONY X900E are:

http://referencehometheater.com/revi...00e-tv-review/

(The following statements are in reference to HDR performance.)

With some more time, I’ve gone through and measured more of the presets on the X900E after the update to Android 7.0 and have some notes on each of them.

Cinema Pro: This is the most accurate mode. It tracks the EOTF correctly and has the lowest grayscale errors of any of the presets.

Cinema Home: Cinema Home makes everything brighter, earlier. So a pixel that should be 95 nits is coming out at 251 nits, while one that should be 10 nits is 34 nits. This continues all the way up. What it does provide is a brighter, punchier image in many scenes, but when you have bright highlights those clip to a high degree and you lose lots of detail.

Custom: Custom tracks the opposite way that Cinema Home does, it in that it makes everything dimmer. This leads you to seeing more detail in bright highlights, but most other scenes are dimmer than they should be. A pixel that should be 10 nits is instead 8.4, one that should be 94 nits comes out at 73 nits. The first value that should peak at 906 nits instead is only 554 nits.

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post #26559 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Shankenstein View Post
I had my back panel repaired today and it took longer for them to drive from their prior appointment than to fix the TV.
There is tape in the four corners of the display and two long strips running along the top and bottom of the display.

The issue with mine was a long metal rod that attaches the back panel to the body. They had installed mine backwards at the factory, so the tape was all that held it in place.
Very satisfied with my experience.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

By the way, have you had enough viewing time to evaluate the 1170 update? If so, any pros/cons?
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post #26560 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 06:49 PM
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By the way, have you had enough viewing time to evaluate the 1170 update? If so, any pros/cons?
I am 98% percent gaming use, so that is all I can go by.
I have watched a little Daredevil on Netflix which is quite fantastic and issue free.
I have also been hdr/4k searching on YouTube with my only issue being voice search.

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post #26561 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
So it sounds as though the panel separation problem is human assembly error versus design error (i.e., it should not separate if put together as designed.) As that how it seemed? If so that is good news for the TV series overall and likely means if fix, it should stay together.
He said of all the issues he has seen, panel separation has been the most common and it stems from that pin being installed incorrectly.

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post #26562 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 07:11 PM
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I feel like update 1170 changed something in the picture.
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post #26563 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 07:14 PM
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Does anyone know of 1170 may fix the auto switching of devices such as the Nintendo switch?

They said the fix was coming "early summer" but I am wondering if they may have meant early summer for North America since it was a North American representive that gave that statement
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post #26564 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 07:23 PM
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I ordered a UN49KS8500 from BB for our family room to replace a 5 year old LG 1080P TV. Last years model, but it looks like the 2017 8000 in the 49" is not the same. No curved either although that's not a deal breaker. I don't see any forums here on the 2017 models? Looks like the new MU8000 is more like the 2016 7000 series?
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post #26565 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoakimMogren View Post
I feel like update 1170 changed something in the picture.

Good, bad?

A bunch of Internet commentors claim that 1169 purposely screwed with the image in order to make the 2016 sets look washed out compared to the 2017. No idea how accurate that is.
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post #26566 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post
I ordered a UN49KS8500 from BB for our family room to replace a 5 year old LG 1080P TV. Last years model, but it looks like the 2017 8000 in the 49" is not the same. No curved either although that's not a deal breaker. I don't see any forums here on the 2017 models? Looks like the new MU8000 is more like the 2016 7000 series?
I'm not sure about model numbers in the states (I'm assuming you are american) but the MU8000 here is the same as last year's ks8000 minus the quantum dots.
Same basic design, same nits etc just no QD
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post #26567 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 09:27 PM
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I'm not sure about model numbers in the states (I'm assuming you are american) but the MU8000 here is the same as last year's ks8000 minus the quantum dots.
Same basic design, same nits etc just no QD
Isn't the QD tech a pretty big difference? Samsung classifies the KS models as SUHD and the new MU is just UHD. The MU motion rate is only 120 as well.
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post #26568 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post
I ordered a UN49KS8500 from BB for our family room to replace a 5 year old LG 1080P TV. Last years model, but it looks like the 2017 8000 in the 49" is not the same. No curved either although that's not a deal breaker. I don't see any forums here on the 2017 models? Looks like the new MU8000 is more like the 2016 7000 series?
It offers slightly improved specs over the KU7000 from last year, but is the only size in the MU8000 line up that is 60hz.

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post #26569 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Viche View Post
Good, bad?

A bunch of Internet commentors claim that 1169 purposely screwed with the image in order to make the 2016 sets look washed out compared to the 2017. No idea how accurate that is.
It hasn't washed anything out on my set. I believe the same commentator is claiming it also causes backlight bleed where was none before.

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post #26570 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 09:55 PM
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Yes, but I personally would go with the Amazon cables. https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-.../dp/B014I8TC4E
Hi thanks!! It seems they are great cables! Althought the 25 feet seems so large
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post #26571 of 29334 Old 06-01-2017, 10:34 PM
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Yes, but I personally would go with the Amazon cables. https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-.../dp/B014I8TC4E
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Hi thanks!! It seems they are great cables! Althought the 25 feet seems so large
And I would personally go with these, and you'll find that most on these forums would prefer these over any others for reliability and price....

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15427
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post #26572 of 29334 Old 06-02-2017, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr.Shankenstein View Post
He said of all the issues he has seen, panel separation has been the most common and it stems from that pin being installed incorrectly.

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What is your TV build date?
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post #26573 of 29334 Old 06-02-2017, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by JoakimMogren View Post
I feel like update 1170 changed something in the picture.
What was the change?
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post #26574 of 29334 Old 06-02-2017, 05:11 AM
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What is your TV build date?
I'll give it a look at home

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post #26575 of 29334 Old 06-02-2017, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Viche View Post
How can you tell if the TV is properly detecting and decoding HDR in game mode?

@mrtickleuk how can you tell that ST2084 is engaged while playing a game?
Well you have to have content where it's obvious that it's HDR, and learn what it looks like. The TV might not tell us. But something very bright that's clearly a few hundred nits should do it.
It's a bit like if you use the two awful "Natural" or "Dynamic" pictures modes which do not support HDR, and then feed them HDR content. If you think you're watching HDR in those modes - you are not - and you can't tell the difference, there's not much we can do to help. I think the difference is so striking that we all soon learn to tell.


But as Doctor S says below, this image:


is also a dead give-away.

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I guess I am assuming with the flicker of my and the banner showing HDR content is being viewed.
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
That likely means that it is pushing the nits up from what the content is,
We don't know exactly what changes it does to the EOTF yet. Needs someone to measure it with meters!

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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
which would probably mean that bright peaks will clip and therefore defeat one of the primary difference makers in HDR.
Luckily this TV implements Tone Mapping and it rolls off, instead of clipping. Earlier Samsung models (the 2015 models) did have HDR but without Tone Mapping. They clipped.

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It would probably be as the different viewing modes on the SONY X900E are:

http://referencehometheater.com/revi...00e-tv-review/

Spoiler!
Agreed, I'm sure it's very similar to that sort of thing. Nice reference! For our TVs, Dynamic Contrast=Off will be the most accurate setting.

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post #26576 of 29334 Old 06-02-2017, 06:37 AM
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Well you have to have content where it's obvious that it's HDR, and learn what it looks like. The TV doesn't tell us. But something very bright that's clearly a few hundred nits should do it.
It's a bit like if you use the two awful "Natural" or "Dynamic" pictures modes which do not support HDR, and then feed them HDR content. If you think you're watching HDR in those modes - you are not - and you can't tell the difference, there's not much we can do to help. I think the difference is so striking that we all soon learn to tell.


But as Doctor S says below, this image:


is also a dead give-away.





We don't know exactly what changes it does to the EOTF yet. Needs someone to measure it with meters!



Luckily this TV implements Tone Mapping and it doesn't clip. Earlier models (the 2015 models) did have HDR but without Tone Mapping.



Agreed, I'm sure it's very similar to that sort of thing. Nice reference!
In most cases on my Pro/XB1S the highlights are much brighter while not losing environmental detail.
When switching from HDR to SDR in game the there bit of loss in detail and colors go from natural and evenly saturated to looking like older Samsungs that would overemphasize red and green making it a little over saturated.

Horizon is fantastic for HDR and Gears of War 4 is another fantastic example of HDR done right.

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post #26577 of 29334 Old 06-02-2017, 07:08 AM
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Luckily this TV implements Tone Mapping and it rolls off, instead of clipping. Earlier Samsung models (the 2015 models) did have HDR but without Tone Mapping. They clipped.
But that would be compressing it (banding)? And if the EOTF curve was shifted up, that compression would happen sooner.
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post #26578 of 29334 Old 06-02-2017, 07:15 AM
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But that would be compressing it (banding)? And if the EOTF curve was shifted up, that compression would happen sooner.
Well yes of course. For a good explanation of what Tone Mapping is and why it is necessary, please watch all of this all the way through. It's very well explained by Vincent here.


Until we have TVs that can do 4000 nits, there are two choices, both commonly called "compromises".
  1. Clipping (unsophisticated)
  2. Tone Mapping (sophisticated)

In the above video, Vincent explains the differences between the 3 Tone Mapping approaches taken by those manufacturers, and the pros/cons of each method. Obviously, no method is without cons, but it does explain a lot of what people see.
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post #26579 of 29334 Old 06-02-2017, 07:50 AM
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Anybody have an 8500 series curved and regret the curved design? I can't find a 49" 8000 anywhere, but I did find an 8500. Other than the price being higher on the curved, does it present any issues that would be considered a con or compromise?
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post #26580 of 29334 Old 06-02-2017, 07:52 AM
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Hey Everyone! I bought my 55" KS8000 in the beginning of the year for a good deal. I usually only watch movies on it at night or game here and there, but lately I've been working a lot and haven't had time to fully enjoy it like I use to.

Thing is, I was watching Logan the other night and started noticing a lot of flash lighting and light bleed where before I couldn't see any at all. I did some research and found that some people claim that update 1169 caused some of these issues, wether intentional or not. So I checked and sure enough mine has update 1169. This amount of flash lighting/light bleed is a big problem to me...to the point where I'm considering getting a Sony X900E now...

Does anyone know for sure if the update 1169 caused this? I sure I'm not just imagining it...has Samsung acknowledged the issue? Is update 1170 suppose to fix it at all?...just curious because I LOVED the tv when I first bought it and now I'm just not too impressed at all by it...
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