Decided I want to step up from 1080p to 4k w/HDR, while also going from 55" to 65". Current TV is an LG 55EC9300. Room is completely light controlled so normal TV viewing is moderate to dim and movie watching is pitch black. I sit about 8 feet away and love the in your face encompassing feeling (used to have a dedicated theater room with 133" screen from 12ft away). I LOVE deep blacks but I absolutely understand I am giving up absolute black by getting rid of the OLED and none of my choices will have the same black level. That's fine with me, but the best blacks I can do outside of OLED is my goal.
The choices are: Samsung KS8500 vs. Sony X850D vs. Vizio P65
- AFAIK, the Vizio is the only one of these three that will support both Dolby Vision and HDR10
- The Vizio is also the only TV of these three that has FALD
- The Samsung has Quantum Dot which supposedly should help with better colors
- Curve doesn't bother me at all (a very guilty part of me likes it)
Positives for me:
- Deepest blacks possible without noticeable drawbacks (edge bleed, blooming, etc)
- Best near-black performance/no black crush (one drawback I hate with my EC9300 is the black crush present at near black)
- Best grayscale uniformity (another EC9300 drawback was the horrible 1-5% IRE banding and DSE)
- Best white uniformity (third drawback of the EC9300 was an all white picture turned to pink further from the center)
Bonuses for me:
- Good motion handling for sports (without resorting to any motion enhancement settings...hate the SOE)
- Good input LAG for gaming (although I used to game on a JVC projector so LAG doesn't bother me too much)
1) The first obvious issue is the lack of Dolby Vision with Samsung and Sony. Will this prove a roadblock with UHD content? I know the HDR standard is still an evolving beast but wasn't sure what content I may be missing out on in the foreseeable future without having Dolby Vision support.
2) The next question is lack of FALD with the Samsung and Sony. Both claim meeting HDR standards with Edge-Lighting and both have their own marketing for better black levels using non-FALD methods (Sony says "Slim Backlight Drive" and Samsung says "UDH Dimming")
How reliable is Rtings.com for comparisons? Reading their black level reviews, it says the Sony 930D is around 0.030 cd/m2 while the Samsung KS8000 and Vizio P are around 0.015 cd/m2. If true, this would suggest the Sony would be out of the running for me...
I saw both but Best Buy is adequate at best for judging, especially since my local Best Buy never puts anything Vizio in their Magnolia room (so no way to correctly compare dark pictures). Both looked great. The Samsung popped more for color, but again it wasn't competing with the bright lights of the showroom floor.
I suppose my biggest question is still: Will the lack of Dolby Vision by Samsung and Sony be a roadblock to certain UHD content in the future? If I start buying UDH Blu-rays will I one day get a title that uses Dolby Vision and now miss out on HDR content?
I was at Best Buy yesterday and they had the 75" new P-Series next to the X850D. The Vizio-provided demo reel is bad, just very little 'pop' in the material, but they were able to switch it to the same main store feed that the Sony was on.
Side by side on the same content the Vizio P has dramatically better black levels than the 850D. If black levels are important to you and you view in a dark environment, I'd take the 850D off of your list.
The Sony did have more intense color, and Sony's upscaling is better, especially when it comes to poor content, though I was unable to adjust any settings on the Vizio, so the color could have probably been adjusted for more pop there.
If you're going to go Sony, the only one worth getting is the x940D, which is obviously quite a bit more expensive. If you can still find one you could probably get last year's X940C for a decent price, though still more than the others you're looking at, and it's very similar to this year's 940D in terms of PQ from most reports.
Thanks! That seems to confirm the Rtings.com cd/m2 levels tested for the new Sony's without FALD.
I've read the Vizio processing for SD poor content is subpar, which is fine with me. Everything I watch on DirecTV is 720p or better. And 95% of my movie collection is Bluray anyways. The only SD poor content I have is Mystery Science Theater 3000 collection, which I can live with.
The colors being drastically different between the Vizio and Samsung/Sony could be a deal breaker but I am confident with calibration I could close the gap.
Going to take one last trip to another local Best Buy Magnolia near me and see if I can get them to move a P Series into the dark area for evaluation.
Thanks again guys! Anymore input in the meantime is appreciated.
Well. Here's the thing. If I go with the Vizio my budget is ~$2000 due to paying cash. If I go with the Samsung I can go up to $5000 due to 2yr interest free financing. I can also go up to $5000 for the Sony due to 2yr interest free financing also.
In all honesty I could also do the new 2016 LG OLED models in 65" with similar 2yr interest free financing. Or step up to the top of the line Samsung (KS9500) or Sony (940D).
That said, the glaring issue with the Sony and Samsung are lack of Dolby Vision which seems like a huge hindrance if jumping to UHD and paying that much money. And I didn't include the LG OLED as I am not sure if OLED is ready for HDR yet or not...
I have similar question as OP. I'm looking for a 65 inch TV and have been comparing the P-series, 850D, and KS8000. I've read tons of reviews. The TV will be used in a family room setting with a fair amount of light.
Although initially I thought the P-series might be the way to go, there are two primary concerns for me on that one. First, it supposedly doesn't do upscaling as well as the other two brands. Upscaling is important for me since we mostly do tv watching of cable being broadcast at 720p or 1080i. However, we will have some streaming 4K Netflix but high def cable is more common at the moment. Second, I am not a fan about its tablet remote and no smart apps built into the set. I have a Harmony Remote that I want to continue using and having that to be able to access the smart apps on the TV is important to me along with my family members who are less motivated to switch remotes.
I've gone to three Best Buys and in each of them the reps swear by Sony and the 850D. To them it's a hand down decision. I thought it interesting that all three stores had the same story line. Does Sony have some deal with Best Buy or are those reps all sincere? Anyway, I compared the 850D next to P-series. The 850D had better colors in their theater room. I didn't compare it to the KS8000 at that time.
In another store, I was less impressed with 850D and noted it's blacks weren't so dark. In fact, lower models of the Sony seemed to have better blacks. Also, for upscaling of a 1080P source, I compared the 850D to a Sony 1080P set. The 850D's upscaling actually made some fine details get too soft. Those details were more visible in the lower model 1080P Sony.
I may go back to Best Buy and try to compare the 850D next to the KS8000. By itself, the KS8000 seems to have good whites and blacks. But I don't know how the colors compare sitting next to the 850D. I also want to see how well the KS8000 upscales.
Most on-line "professional" reviews seem to rate the KS8000 higher than the 850D. The KS8000's local dimming gets a lot of attention. However, the few user reviews on Amazon of the KS8000 rate it pretty low due to light bleeding. The user reviews of the 850D are higher on Amazon.
So, in a nutshell, according to the few user reviews on Amazon and the reps at three different Best Buys, the 850D would appear to be better. According to several professional, in-depth on-line review web sites, the KS8000 is better than the 850D. For my particular situation where upscaling is important, watching tv in a well lit family room, what is the better TV of this lot (cost aside since these particular sets are within my price range).
Although initially I thought the P-series might be the way to go, there are two primary concerns for me on that one. First, it supposedly doesn't do upscaling as well as the other two brands. Upscaling is important for me since we mostly do tv watching of cable being broadcast at 720p or 1080i.
Everyone always says this yet no one has ever actually demonstrated this. I have the P75 and I can unequivocally say that it does just as well as any other TV with lower quality and lower resolution sources as long as you utilize the settings correctly.
Sony X850D: IPS Panel, Color gamut is about the same as the Vizio, no local dimming, low nit output, and thin frame design that may have issues.
Vizio P65: Great Contrast ratio, FALD, DV and soon HDR10, cool tablet concept, however yellow banding issue.
Samsung: Don't really know to much...
For the money the Vizio is the clear winner. I would bother with the Sony if you interested in HDR, it doesn't get dark nor bright so whats the point. The Samsung is the only 1000 nit set in the bunch, however the local dimming may cause some issues with blooming and effect the black cinema bars.
Wow, didn't even realize the 850D was IPS. Yea that scratches it off my list for good.
Looks like the Vizio P65 is the front runner with the Samsung KS8000 in consideration (now that I know all UHD Blurays will support HDR10 so the most I would miss out on is Dolby Vision specific streaming content). Trip to Best Buy tomorrow to take some more looks.
The LG C6 OLED is a wildcard...if the price is sub-$4k once they drop (already around $4500 for preorders) I may commit fully to it and be done for a long long time. Will wait to see what happens when they finally appear within the next few weeks (hopefully) as I am going to wait til the end of May to make a decision anyways.
P65 is the winner if we're talking retail prices, but I've already seen some ridiculous sales on the KS8000. One recently was buydig via ebay had the 65" for $1799 which is a killer deal for a great set.
Well. Just got back from a Magnolia that had the Vizio P75 in it's showroom, right next to a Sony 930D and 850D. After seeing it in a somewhat dedicated environment I am...not impressed
I started off looking at the LG OLED E6 and fell in love, as I knew I would. Then I worked my way down the row, first staring at the Sony 930D, then 850D, then Vizio P Series. Immediately my wife said "No, absolutely not. It looks washed out. Get the OLED" (I should definitely keep her). And she was right. I watched both the Vizio and Best Buy store demos, than watched a UHD clip of the Bellagio Fountains in Las Vegas and I wasn't pulled in. Blacks were spectacular, yes, but the colors just didn't pop. And that was on Vivid mode. Next to the Sony 850D the Sony kept drawing my attention away. And the 930D was even better. Then I sat down and watched the 75" Sony 940D and fell in shear love. For the price of the 65" LG OLED I could go up to 75" and get FALD on the Sony...still not the same black levels but darn near close. Only major drawback is no Dolby Vision support.
What I thought was going to be a $2k purchase is now approved to be up to a $6k purchase per the wife. I was going to be the reasonable one and just step up ever so slightly but she is insisting I either get the OLED or will *settle* for the 940D Sony. So I have some more thinking to do since the LG I want (the C series) isn't available yet.
First thing is first: Is Dolby Vision support available in the future via firmware upgrade on the Sony?
The thing is that Vivid is not the setting you want to use to make the colors pop. "calibrated" is actually the best mode for color reproduction with the Vizio. There Vivid mode actually pushes the colors too much and causes clipping. That is probably why you didn't like it. All of the sets you mentioned are capable of producing virtually the same colors. You just have to know what settings to select for each of the TVs.
The OLED is definitely an excellent TV and the Sony 940D is as well. However, if you were viewing a properly configured Vizio P-series with the same content as the other TVs you would have saved yourself $4000. But what the heck it is only money right?
That is odd, that the Sony was playing the Vizio demo that is, I thought it was running off of a dedicated media server attached to the TV for the one I saw. Who knows what goofy things various Best Buys do in their setups though.
Vizio's $6000 reference series tv would be good alternative rather than the P series against the OLED. 384 zones, higher brightness, and better color. Samsung's upcoming KS9800 is rumored to have 500+ zones.
The Reference Series is going to be in the VE Shootout, and it will be interesting to see how it does, but it's a weird product right now, and I'm not sure how Vizio can justify the price on it. Had it come out back in 2014 when it was supposed to it could have been a game changer for them, instead it's just way too much money for what you get, at least on paper.
It's marginally brighter (800 nits vs 600 nits on the P Series), and may or may not have a wider color spectrum than the P, and it does have more zones, but at 3x the price, and being saddled with the old Vizio smart-TV system that isn't going to be supported any longer, it looks very tough to recommend. Plus, I wonder how much of the cost is tied up in the soundbar, subs, and satellite speakers than many people will never use because they already have something better?
Did someone say P series and dim in the same sentence? Something must have been really wrong with the tv then. I have the 75" P and even at 50% backlight it is brighter than my F8500 was on 100%.
Yes. That was me. P75 at my Magnolia. Dim compared to the Sony 850D and Sony 930D. Vizio was running in Vivid so whatever the default Brightness and Backlight is on Vivid is what it was set at.
As also noted, the Sony 930D was also running the same Vizio demo disc as the P Series and it looked a heck of a lot better and brighter. But just to please certain people I am headed back now to change the Vizio to a more "subdued" preset and re-evaluate.
Vivid is 90% backlight which is eye searingly bright unless someone changed the backlight setting on it. Even in the reviews they say the P is one of the brightest tvs ever. Vizio rates it at 600 nits but that's full screen white and most other manufacturers rate their tvs based on a 10% window.
I have the P75 and will also add that it is eye searingly bright and the colors have nice pop.
BCJ I know what you mean however comparing the P75 to the Sony, LG and Samsungs in the Magnolia showroom. That Vizio demo is horrible and does not compare to the other brands demos... not even close.
Personally I would advise to stay away from the P75 and go with Sony or Samsung (my preference of the 2 models you listed) if you can only base your purchase off of the showroom experience. You will always have that nagging doubt in the back of your mind otherwise. You'll also have a very nice TV.
The alternative would be to try the P75 at home and don't be afraid to play with the settings... I think you'll be surprised.
There must be something wrong with this P at my Best Buy.
I took a copy of Oblivion on Bluray (1080p) and had them put it on the Vizio and change the picture mode to Calibrated. As I suspected the picture got even darker and more flat/dull compared to Vivid mode. Blacks looked a lot better (compared to Vivid) but the colors still were...not there really. I manually adjusted the backlight and there must be something wrong with it because it barely changes the overall brightness even going from 25 to 100. The Best Buy employee didn't seem to think anything of it but yea, it can't be working properly. So it wasn't colors being clipped by Vivid. This TV literally is way too dull and soft and lacks any pop. Compared to reports of other P series owner I would have to give the benefit of the doubt that it is broken (most likely a backlight issue).
Same Oblivion Bluray on the Sony 940D was fantastic. It absolutely drew me in (the 75" helped a lot to). And the LG was, well it was perfect as I biasedly expected lol.
Since I am waiting til the end of May anyways I check back in once the P75 is replaced (well, hopefully replaced) at the showroom, see if I can't get a different experience.
It sounds like clear action was turned on. The things you are describing would definitely be present with clear action turned on.
You really can't judge these TVs unless you are in complete control of the settings and know what settings to select. I can make any TV look bad by adjusting the settings incorrectly.
Most average consumers do not know that the pop they are seeing is inaccurate. They just love it because to them it jumps out. It's bright, it's vivid, it pops out and screams to their attention. The same is usually true for a lot of motion processing that produces severe SOE. I've seen plenty of people love the effect despite how unrealistic it is. Because it grabs their attention.
The Vizio I was demoing had no pop on a picture mode that should produce it. It was flat and dull. And as I have found out is most likely due to a faulty backlight issue.
While I would never use vivid or any other picture mode outside of a reference preset due to such inaccurate colors and contrast, for the sake of testing I noticed that on vivd the TV at my Best Buy failed miserably to produce anything bright or punchy or poppy. It was just flat.
Are we just going to keep going around in a circle?
If it helps to keep repeating the same things I already know about Vivid mode and the stock Vizio demo loop and using the correct picture mode for accurate representation, that's fine. But to sum it up:
- In a picture mode that on any other TV I have ever demoed produces the brightest picture possible (no matter how inaccurate the colors), the P Series I saw was very flat, dim, and dull...not just on the stock Vizio Demo but also on the stock Best Buy Demo and a 4k clip of the Bellagio fountains
- Due to the unimpressive picture I went back and used the Calibrated setting on a known source I am familiar with (1080p Bluray of Oblivion) where, to no astonishment, the picture was even more flat and dull compared to the original Vivid mode...I wasn't there to judge color reproduction but to understand why the picture was so dim, dull, punchless...I say it was to no astonishment because as I have already expressed if a TV cannot look bright and punchy on any type of "Torch" mode setting, it sure won't get any brighter on a more calibrated (read: subdued) setting
- The problem with THIS TV seems to be a faulty backlight panel adjustment or setting relationship as turning the panel up and down, no matter what picture setting I tried, didn't help to brighten the picture at all on non-HDR material (so no Dolby Vision in play)
- I am now waiting to see if this Best Buy replaces the set or if (by some miracle) my local A/V store will have it on display since they have never carried Vizio in the past
Do we really need to keep discussing Vivid mode anymore? The TV has a flaw outside of possible color clipping which is producing the lackluster picture. Not much else to say.
My 3 yr old 55in base model hd LG looks better than my p75 on vivid mode. No joke. I had a Sony 850c that I returned to get the vizio. Before I pulled the trigger on it I went into a bb to check one out. I wasn't impressed at all. Picture was just ok. I had one of the employees hook a blu Ray player up to it with Pacific rim. That too looked horrible. I based my decision on reviews and rtings.com. They said the p series has the best picture they have ever tested on a LCD and they kind of no what they are talking about. I'm still blown away by the picture this tv produces. It blows away my Sony 850c. I can't afford an oled but in my opinion it's as close as your gonna get. The fald on this set works wonderfully. The blacks are just sick. I play oled demos on it and people are blown away. Bluray looks like 4k. I've never seen such shadow detail. To put it simply I'm very happy and I grin knowing it only cost me 3600 bucks.
I'm also in this very same boat. I have spent countless hours at BB and reading reviews over the P-Series, X850D, and KS8000. I was sure I was going to get the 2016 Vizio P-Series when it was released over any other TV given its specs on paper. When I was finally standing in front of a P75 and watching the Dark Knight on Blu-Ray in the Magnolia room at BB I was extremely disappointed. I looked at the Samsung sitting right next to it and it was night and day. The Samsung's picture was sooooo much better it was ridiculous. Messing with all the settings on the Vizio couldn't even come close to the Samsungs pic. Now after reading how much better the Samsung converts 480,720,etc. than the Vizio I am pretty much sold on the Samsung. I would say 90% of my viewing is going to be from DirecTV (Sports, movies, reality shows,etc.). I really wanted the Vizio but now that the Samsung is just $200 more through Costco I think I am going to pull the trigger on that next weekend unless I am really missing something here about the Vizio?
You are missing the fact that simply “Messing” with the settings is not going to give you the full potential of any TV. You must do the research to find out exactly what the optimal settings are for the TVs and apply only those settings and use the same content from the same sources on both TVs. Then compare the TVs.
If you do that then you will see the P-series at its full potential.
The review sites used the wrong settings when they said it is inferior for low resolution content. With the correct settings it does great with all sources including lower resolution and over compressed content.
That being said the P-series does struggle a bit with DSE. You will see it in Hockey. It isn’t terrible but you will see it. I think DSE is the P-series biggest drawback.
After watching the upconvert from the lower signals, which was my main concern, the Samsung KS8000 was finally my choice. No matter what I did to the settings on the Vizio, and I know all the Vizio peeps are going to start commenting, it still lacked the colors and pop that I found on the Samsung. If I had to sit there and try that hard to make the Vizio look good then its not worth it in my opinion. It looked like on all the Vizio P sets that the screen has that matte haze look to it and I am assuming its for anti glare but I wonder if this effect the picture at all. Remember I watch 90% Directv and my main concern was upconvert.
The KS8000 is an outstanding TV and it really doesn't cost that much more than the Vizio P-series. It just lacks Dolby Vision HDR and FALD but otherwise it is probably the best edge lit TV out there.
I've been debating the Vizio P vs the Samsung KS8000 for two months. The P series thread is filled with problem reports. I do 95% of watching in a lighted room from cable sources. I also watch several series on Amazon, which is not available on the P series. The Samsung has just dropped to $1979 on BJs and may go on sale elsewhere. That may be the deciding factor for me. Am I making a mistake?
I highly considered the KS8000, even at the Ebay special. After seeing photos of light bleed on some of the members sets and poor blacks, I knew it wouldn't be a contender as much as I wanted to save a couple hundred off the P65 price. I have a blacked out room and light bleed and poor blacks would drive me nuts. Also, I don't watch much sd content or cable at all and most tv shows I download in 1080p that look better than the highly compressed crap Uverse 1080i. Not only that, no Dolbyvision was a deal breaker. And, while HDR10 isn't yet supported on the P, it is coming soon. The lack of Amazon 4k was alleviated by the Roku 4 I picked up for around a $100, which I returned instead and got a K8500 that I was getting anyways since Amazon updated to support HDR.
Now it's just a matter of when HDR10 is pushed.
So far I've watched Marco Polo, Man of Steel and Gatsby in DV and I can see the superb effects of DV and it makes certain things pop and look fantastic. An example is in MOS at the beginning on Krypton where explosions are going on. They're so bright I have to squint. Marco polo night scenes where there's fire, they look so bright almost 3d like.
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
AVS Forum
34M posts
1.5M members
Since 1999
A forum community dedicated to home theater owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about home audio/video, TVs, projectors, screens, receivers, speakers, projects, DIY’s, product reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!