Poll: Do You Use Motion Processing when Watching Movies? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: Do you use motion processing when watching movies at home?
Yes. It makes movies look better. 96 20.25%
Sometimes. It depends on the movie. 81 17.09%
No. It makes movies look worse. 297 62.66%
Voters: 474. You may not vote on this poll

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post #61 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 07:26 AM
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I never, ever use motion processing.

I reviewed a set for Amazon (brand and model withheld), and contacted the company's customer service department to discuss the set's local-dimming feature. The person I spoke with was, to my surprise, a knowledgeable engineer who told me that he leaves all the automatic adjustments on his TVs turned off.

I heartily agree. Motion artifacts are rare, and seem to be problems in the source material. Filmed material should look like film, not video.
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post #62 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 07:55 AM
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I use the default most of the time on my Samsung KS8500 but have occasionally noticed, usually when watching video of aircraft sweeping by, small bits of the airplane image flickering slightly in front of or behind the main image. I have even seen the image of the aircraft break up quite seriously. I have no idea what the original frame rate was. I have also noticed the same on high quality YouTube videos. In most cases though it does make the image look much steadier and far more realistic.

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post #63 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 08:18 AM
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As far as I'm concerned, if the original filmmaker didn't intend for the movie to be seen at a higher frame-rate then I don't particularly want to change it. If the film was made to be seen at higher framerate then I want to see it that way. Basically I want to see things as close to the original vision for the movie as possible.
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post #64 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Evazan View Post
As a creator you hope your content is viewed exactly how you intended it to be viewed. That goes for everything from the brightness of the room, to color calibration, to frame rate (completely leaving out audio here). Motion processing, or smoothing as its sometimes called, is adding frames to the source, completely changing how it looks. If i shot something at 24fps, i did that for a reason, and i sure as hell dont want someone viewing with motion smoothing making it look like it was shot at 60fps.

TLDR: you don't paint a smile over the Mona Lisa because you dont like her expression, Da Vinci obviously painted her that way for a reason.
On my set, I have variables that I can set for motion control to help eliminate some of that dreaded soap opera effect.

What I don't understand is the vehement opinion of content creators here against those that use this function. Would you rather have us watch your creative content that exhibits excessive judder or would you rather have us try to eliminate that judder so that we can more thoroughly enjoy that which you have created?

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post #65 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Gordks View Post
I use the default most of the time on my Samsung KS8500 but have occasionally noticed, usually when watching video of aircraft sweeping by, small bits of the airplane image flickering slightly in front of or behind the main image. I have even seen the image of the aircraft break up quite seriously. I have no idea what the original frame rate was. I have also noticed the same on high quality YouTube videos. In most cases though it does make the image look much steadier and far more realistic.
That is ghosting, one of the inherent issues with LCD/LED based TVs. Motion processing generally enhances that effect in my experience, as well as artificially enhancing (sharpening) outlines. All of those things disrupt my viewing pleasure. However, this is where I note that not everyone's vision is the same, and that what is an entirely subpar viewing experience for 1 person is perfectly acceptable for another. Remember the days of 21 inch CRT monitors when computer resolutions finally bumped over 1024 horizontal resolution? We had a few folks working at those resolutions at 60Hz, where you could basically watch the scanning occur on screen and they were completely oblivious to this (picture a bright spot zooming across the screen like a spotlight) Their eyes just didn't see it due to slower reactions to light changes. Bumping the scan upwards made the effect go away for more and more folks until at 76+ none of us noticed it anymore. For the same reason, I never warmed up to a Sony Trinitron, the mesh borders (2 or 3, depending upon set/monitor size) noticeably affected the picture for me. It's one of those "once you see it, that's all you can see" things.
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post #66 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwien123 View Post
What I don't understand is the vehement opinion of content creators here against those that use this function. Would you rather have us watch your creative content that exhibits excessive judder or would you rather have us try to eliminate that judder so that we can more thoroughly enjoy that which you have created?
Content creators are interesting folk. That aside, if you've painstakingly created an effect in your creative product that subsequently gets washed out by some automated technology, I think you too would be upset. Think if you were (cringe) Mariah Carey screeching (err, "singing") your high note, and Samsung's TVs automatically filtered said note to a nice, autotuned smooth vocal, how upset would you be? (bad analogy, I know, that might actually be the one case where autotune would be preferred )
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post #67 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrOct View Post
As far as I'm concerned, if the original filmmaker didn't intend for the movie to be seen at a higher frame-rate then I don't particularly want to change it. If the film was made to be seen at higher framerate then I want to see it that way. Basically I want to see things as close to the original vision for the movie as possible.
+1. if I personally made a movie, I would want the audience to see what I envisioned. If a director wanted his content to be smooth, clean, etc. he or she would make it that way. IMO just turn all these functions off and enjoy the content the way it was intended to be seen.
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post #68 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by CRAZZZY View Post
+1. if I personally made a movie, I would want the audience to see what I envisioned. If a director wanted his content to be smooth, clean, etc. he or she would make it that way. IMO just turn all these functions off and enjoy the content the way it was intended to be seen.
But not all TV's are capable of this. I have a Samsung 6290 that has inherent judder issues with "some" content. I am absolutely sure that content providers did not intend for me to view their content with this kind of judder in place and the only way that I can eliminate some of this is to incorporate a bit of motion control but not so much motion control where it begins to look unnatural.

My viewing experience has absolutely nothing to do with appeasing the content creator but rather has everything to do with appeasing myself.

But in regards to specifically the quote above, it can be said that employing a bit of motion control on an entry level Samsung may indeed help one to "enjoy the content the way it was intended to be seen".

On my set, motion control is not an on/off situation but rather variable. I try to balance that variable so that I eliminate as much judder as I can while at the same time, eliminating the SOE as much as I can. It's a balancing act.

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post #69 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 09:18 AM
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Just enough to remove judder, and not on everything. I have a Vizio P65, which doesn't have great motion processing. Judder reduction, while good on film, makes things like my kids' Ninjago CGI cartoons jump between choppy and slick. Not fun.
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post #70 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 10:05 AM
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No way in hell im ever using that smooth motion garbage. Its the first thing I turned off when I bought my tv.

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post #71 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwien123 View Post
On my set, I have variables that I can set for motion control to help eliminate some of that dreaded soap opera effect.

What I don't understand is the vehement opinion of content creators here against those that use this function. Would you rather have us watch your creative content that exhibits excessive judder or would you rather have us try to eliminate that judder so that we can more thoroughly enjoy that which you have created?
I think that depends on all the variables, how bad is the judder and how intrusive is the motion smoothing? So yes, in some cases I would welcome motion smoothing if it gets rid of bad judder. But in most cases i prefer judder to everything being smoothed out to 60fps looking stuff.
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post #72 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker123 View Post
Content creators are interesting folk. That aside, if you've painstakingly created an effect in your creative product that subsequently gets washed out by some automated technology, I think you too would be upset. Think if you were (cringe) Mariah Carey screeching (err, "singing") your high note, and Samsung's TVs automatically filtered said note to a nice, autotuned smooth vocal, how upset would you be? (bad analogy, I know, that might actually be the one case where autotune would be preferred )
but whose to say Mariah Carey didint want you to hear that screech? just sayin
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post #73 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 10:23 AM
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With all due respect to creaters and cinematographers, we appreciate your uniqueness. We understand you are artists with visions to convey and take great pride in them. You go to a sports bar and want to reach up to the set and turn off judder/blur? Why would you be compelled to turn off a process that enhances realism out of sheer disgust? Again, with all due respect, you sound like a spoiled child stamping his feet to get his way because self expression revolves around you, the center of the universe. Do that in reality and a bouncer will escort you to the door quicker than you can burp that last swig of beer.

The ball is thrown. He was in. No he was out. Without being there and seeing with our own eyes, we'll never know. Let's wait for the instant replay. Darn it, it's not clear! They have judder and blur turned off. It's up to what the ref saw. This game is rigged. Naw, it's just being presented as the league intended.


Their coming around the final turn, neck and neck. This is going to go all the way to the wire. Who won? Don't know, wait for the photo finish. Well, what did it look like to you? Don't know, that dude reached up and turned off smooth motion. Looks great though eh?


After reading further comments here, my thoughts wander. You've turned on interpolation motion enhancement and see things much clearer. Now you see apparant green screen scenes. You see obvious props. You notice things from the vhs/dvd/blu-ray days you never saw using your older display now that you've upgraded to 4k. The things you see now, you weren't/aren't supposed to see. These are production flaws. You can't stand it. The reality makes your eyes bleed. You discover your favorite actress has developed crows feet and the make-up didn't quite cover them up. You're furious. She's furious. You never saw that before. The algo guess work is clearly adding false information to those additional frames. You are told realism is bad and definately not how the creator intended it. You prefer the grain of film vs video to cover up those flaws, to set a mood and bring out artistic value. The bad guys spurs clank when the saloon doors swing open. He's a villin and that sob's name is SOE. You know exactly how to deal with him and bring your favorite actress back to life.


I get this feeling when a scene is/was shot, someone's standing there on the set looking around exclaiming how unconvincing the scenario mock up looks. Someone else taps them on the shoulder and says, not a problem. They'll never decipher it by the time it's on the screen. But then, we do. Disaster scenes don't look like disasters. They look like debri has been cleverly placed one piece at a time. Those bloody scenes of past that stick in your childhood memories were meant to do exactly that. Now that you view them more clearly today, they are laughable. Blood doesn't look like blood and that chainsaw doesn't have teeth on it. I can understand from these perspectives how motion processing/SOE could be unsatisfying.


I think some of this is part of the SOE complaint. You want to be fooled. When you aren't, you've been robbed of how the experience was intended. Perhaps low budget productions suffer the most and are the first to line up and convince you to blur your vision to get the full experience? I prefer to keep it real and look out a fog free window for exactly what the source actually is even if my display has to guess. That rapid frame machine gun pan is far from "acceptable". It's an insult to my eyes. I want to feel like I'm standing on the set when I'm viewing my display. Not in some drug induced coma that seperates fantasy from reality.

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post #74 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 10:36 AM
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We occasionally turn on motion processing / smoothing if the framerate appears jerky or juddery. This may occur on various sources, but we've found it's least likely on Blu-ray movies played on our good ol' Sony BDP-S790. Of course, the TV itself may have something to do with it. We watch a Pioneer Kuro 50-inch and, although its technology is 10 years old, the plasma panel gives us pretty smooth motion without enabling any motion processing.

Settings on the Pioneer are kind of interesting. First, in the Settings menu, you go to Options/HDMI/Signal type. Here you have a choice of PC or Video. If you select PC then there is no motion processing available in the menu. If you select Video then you can go to Setup/Picture/Pure Cinema/Film mode (there's also Text mode). Here you can choose between four modes: Off/Standard/Smooth/Advanced.
OFF:
deactivates Pure Cinema
STANDARD:
(not available for 480p/720p/1080p all @ 60Hz)
"Automatically detects DVD and HD movies running at 24 frames per second for smooth and vivid playback."
SMOOTH:
(not available for 1080p @ 60Hz)
"Produces smoother, more vivid moving images."
ADVANCED:
(not available for 1080p @ 60Hz)
"Converts theatre-quality images to 72 Hz when displaying DVD images (e.g. movies) having 24 frames per second for smooth and vivid playback."
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post #75 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Evazan View Post
I think that depends on all the variables, how bad is the judder and how intrusive is the motion smoothing?
Exactly, and that was my point. As a content creator, you know more than most that things aren't black and white but rather shades of gray. It's not an either/or situation.

As in most things in life, it's a balancing act much like that old risk/reward ratio. In this context, I try to eliminate the judder that is totally distracting while at the same time, not introduce so much motion control that it distracts from my enjoyment. All of this also changes depending on what I am watching. On some programming, I totally leave off motion control. There's just no need for it. On others, I have to apply a bit of it just to help keep my eyeballs from bouncing around inside my head and exiting out from my ears.
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post #76 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwien123 View Post
Exactly, and that was my point. As a content creator, you know more than most that things aren't black and white but rather shades of gray. It's not an either/or situation.

As in most things in life, it's a balancing act much like that old risk/reward ratio. In this context, I try to eliminate the judder that is totally distracting while at the same time, not introduce so much motion control that it distracts from my enjoyment. All of this also changes depending on what I am watching. On some programming, I totally leave off motion control. There's just no need for it. On others, I have to apply a bit of it just to help keep my eyeballs from bouncing around inside my head and exiting out from my ears.
But, In this day and age, if you're someone who cares and makes a conscious decision about whether or not to have motion smoothing on or off, then you should just buy a display that can show 24p correctly without judder. That's one of the first things i look for when buying a new TV or PJ.
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post #77 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Evazan View Post
But, In this day and age, if you're someone who cares and makes a conscious decision about whether or not to have motion smoothing on or off, then you should just buy a display that can show 24p correctly without judder. That's one of the first things i look for when buying a new TV or PJ.
I'm a 73 year old veteran living off of social security. My options are somewhat more limiting than others. At a 499.00 price point, I could not think of anything better than a 55 inch Samsung 6290. It's all about compromises, eh? Do I deal with a bit more judder in order to get a size that I wanted in 4k with good blacks and brightness? For me, the choice was obvious and so I have to deal with some judder by enabling a bit of motion control. Works for me.
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post #78 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwien123 View Post
I'm a 73 year old veteran living off of social security. My options are somewhat more limiting than others. At a 499.00 price point, I could not think of anything better than a 55 inch Samsung 6290. It's all about compromises, eh? Do I deal with a bit more judder in order to get a size that I wanted in 4k with good blacks and brightness? For me, the choice was obvious and so I have to deal with some judder by enabling a bit of motion control. Works for me.
Fair enough sir, I can understand that.
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post #79 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Lurker123 View Post
That is ghosting, one of the inherent issues with LCD/LED based TVs. Motion processing generally enhances that effect in my experience, as well as artificially enhancing (sharpening) outlines. All of those things disrupt my viewing pleasure. However, this is where I note that not everyone's vision is the same, and that what is an entirely subpar viewing experience for 1 person is perfectly acceptable for another. Remember the days of 21 inch CRT monitors when computer resolutions finally bumped over 1024 horizontal resolution? We had a few folks working at those resolutions at 60Hz, where you could basically watch the scanning occur on screen and they were completely oblivious to this (picture a bright spot zooming across the screen like a spotlight) Their eyes just didn't see it due to slower reactions to light changes. Bumping the scan upwards made the effect go away for more and more folks until at 76+ none of us noticed it anymore. For the same reason, I never warmed up to a Sony Trinitron, the mesh borders (2 or 3, depending upon set/monitor size) noticeably affected the picture for me. It's one of those "once you see it, that's all you can see" things.
I think ghosting is something similar to a feint shadow of most of the original image. What I am seeing is more like a hard edged duplication of small portions of the original image flickering in and out of existence in the area in front of, and/or behind (in it's direction of motion) the original. These artifacts are extremely short lived and impossible to predict. Turning off auto motion processing does eliminate these artifacts, but of course, the moving object then becomes a flickering series of images and much less like real life.

I do recall the mesh borders on the Sony I had. I learned to ignore it. Maybe I can do the same with these artifacts since they don't show up all that often anyway.
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post #80 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker123 View Post
Content creators are interesting folk. That aside, if you've painstakingly created an effect in your creative product that subsequently gets washed out by some automated technology, I think you too would be upset. Think if you were (cringe) Mariah Carey screeching (err, "singing") your high note, and Samsung's TVs automatically filtered said note to a nice, autotuned smooth vocal, how upset would you be? (bad analogy, I know, that might actually be the one case where autotune would be preferred )
Well that is the point of discussion isn't it? From what I read it almost looks like 'they' think there are only two options: on or off.
If you watch Walking Dead and have interpolation at a minimum the grain doesn't all of a sudden dissappear nor does it look like 60fps yet the earlier comment has you believe it eliminates grain and the whole filmic look (noise reduction is a separate setting and what host of other picture 'enhancing' features you might get along with a different scene setting).
And then there is difference between brands as also brought up earlier: different brands perform interpolation to a varying degree of quality.
And of course tv broadcast in Europe is mostly in 25 fps so it's not a big gap like 24 vs 30 fps ...

But if I had the option to custom set BFI (not just on and off) I would perhaps use only that, now it's is the mix of lowest interpolation and lowest BFI (aka Clear on a Sony set) or if it clearly leads to too much SOE it get's switched off (Cinema 1 setting = off, Cinema 2 = on). Where SOE to me is when everything seems to move unnaturally quick (think Charlie Chaplin) which using the exact same setting purely depends on the content.

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post #81 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 02:34 PM
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I have a 2016 Samsung KS8000 model TV and I found that Auto is the best setting. Manually changing the settings often end up with jerky motion. So am I use motion smoothing, I don't know and the TV is choosing. However, Auto is not a choice in the survey.
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post #82 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
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I have a 2016 Samsung KS8000 model TV and I found that Auto is the best setting. Manually changing the settings often end up with jerky motion. So am I use motion smoothing, I don't know and the TV is choosing. However, Auto is not a choice in the survey.
On my Sammy, auto gives me total, unabashed SOE which I hate so I never use auto but rather scale it down to 3. On most content, at 3, it eliminates judder completely but on some content, I still get a tiny bit of judder but I'll put up with a bit of that to sidestep total SOE.
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post #83 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 02:54 PM
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Motion handling on Samsung ks7000 is awful so yes I use it. Motion blur at highest setting(10) and judder at lowest (1). Darko settings proposes the same.
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post #84 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 03:54 PM
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I think ghosting is something similar to a feint shadow of most of the original image. What I am seeing is more like a hard edged duplication of small portions of the original image flickering in and out of existence in the area in front of, and/or behind (in it's direction of motion) the original. These artifacts are extremely short lived and impossible to predict. Turning off auto motion processing does eliminate these artifacts, but of course, the moving object then becomes a flickering series of images and much less like real life.

I do recall the mesh borders on the Sony I had. I learned to ignore it. Maybe I can do the same with these artifacts since they don't show up all that often anyway.
That faint shadow was always only the edge of where it had been in my experience. The "correct" image overlay really did override the entire "shadow". On reflection, what you're describing sounds more like bad image processing than the effects I'm referencing, which are more technically related to the underlying technology itself than image manipulation. I should also mention that those processing effects are directly affected by the quality of the underlying video stream - the more compressed it is, the more likely you'll see those effects. Unless, of course, your processing capability is the bottleneck.

If turning motion processing off of a decent video stream (high quality OTA or BD source) results in flickering series of images, then your hardware just isn't up to the task you're asking. My OTA sources are 12 Mbps streams. BD is almost always higher. 4K is way higher. If you're watching a streaming service video, expect no more more than 7 Mbps for video (highest I've personally seen) no matter what the resolution you think you're getting. That huge cut in video is not only due to compression, but actually dropping frames. You won't notice the 60% reduction in stream size if they only send 20 fps vs 60fps, will you?
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post #85 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mithras1 View Post
Well that is the point of discussion isn't it? From what I read it almost looks like 'they' think there are only two options: on or off.
If you watch Walking Dead and have interpolation at a minimum the grain doesn't all of a sudden dissappear nor does it look like 60fps yet the earlier comment has you believe it eliminates grain and the whole filmic look (noise reduction is a separate setting and what host of other picture 'enhancing' features you might get along with a different scene setting).
And then there is difference between brands as also brought up earlier: different brands perform interpolation to a varying degree of quality.
And of course tv broadcast in Europe is mostly in 25 fps so it's not a big gap like 24 vs 30 fps ...

But if I had the option to custom set BFI (not just on and off) I would perhaps use only that, now it's is the mix of lowest interpolation and lowest BFI (aka Clear on a Sony set) or if it clearly leads to too much SOE it get's switched off (Cinema 1 setting = off, Cinema 2 = on). Where SOE to me is when everything seems to move unnaturally quick (think Charlie Chaplin) which using the exact same setting purely depends on the content.
The real question is: why do you have motion issues? If the underlying technology has these issues (LCD/LED sets) then there's no option other than to use some smoothing. The other option is to avoid those issues in the first place, and buy technology that doesn't inherently have these issues. My old CRT based HD RPTV failed suddenly, only a month after all the Kuros closed out. I decided to take the many reviews of the Samsung I bought at face value. After playing with the set and calibrating it, and then watching TV and movies in various environments, the shortcomings of the set rapidly got to the point that the disappointment actually moved to an intolerable viewing experience. (Movies, especially with dark scenes, were just unwatchable) I got a plasma and the viewing experience improved significantly. I also don't have motion issues.
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post #86 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 05:12 PM
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I'll throw in with the people who use it based on the technology in the TV. I'm not a big fan of motion on LCD-based sets so I've got a couple of Samsungs and a Sony that I use some light motion processing on. I don't view it as altering the picture so much as clearing up a deficiency in the tech. The LG OLED just gets a little deblur. And the older Panasonic plasma gets no motion processing at all. I don't change settings based on source or content because they all run through an AVR or preamp and settings would have to be changed manually. I find a setting I can live with for all content since manually resetting things all the time is more of a pain in the rear end than I'm willing to put up with.
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post #87 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 06:27 PM
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My Sony 940C has three methods of motion enhancement.


The first is 'smoothness', which is apparently frame interpolation. I don't like this one, and turn it off for Blu-Ray content. I use it on the '1' setting for satellite TV, at that setting it doesn't add any SOE, but does seem to reduce jerkiness. Anything higher and the SOE comes out.

The second is 'clearness' which is black frame insertion. I use this on a setting of '1' for all sources, it adds some motion resolution without any SOE at an acceptable hit to brightness. In fact, the TV is a bit too bright without it. Using it seems to create a more filmlike look to content.

The third is 'Cinemotion'. I'm not sure what exactly it does. I have it set to 'high' and I think it has something to do with 3:2 pulldown to help preserve the proper 24fps film cadence. It doesn't add any SOE.

I've played around with the 'sports' modes when watching sports, but I prefer my normal 'cinema home' or 'cinema pro' modes that I use for other content even for sports.
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post #88 of 127 Old 02-21-2017, 07:05 PM
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With my 2016 Vizio M70-D3, I set the "Reduce Judder" to 1 ( out of 10 ). It does not create any SOE, but smooths things out nicely. My older Vizio ( 2014 M702i ) had three choices - Low, Med, High. All three were too aggressive, so I couldn't stand to watch even with the low setting. Great improvement with the new TV.
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post #89 of 127 Old 02-22-2017, 01:27 AM
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I use whatever is default mode on the Pioneer Kuro, looks great.

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Code:
      FL  C  FR      | Input  : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
 TFL  WL     WR  TFR | Magic  : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
 TML  SL     SR  TMR | Output : Pioneer KRP-600a, SVS PB13 Ultra
 TRL  RSL   RSR  TRR |          Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
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post #90 of 127 Old 02-22-2017, 05:38 AM
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I use motion processing, but only the "Clear" setting on my Samsung. It seems to remove the nasty judder without making things look like they have the "soap opera effect."
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