Samsung Q9 65â?³ QLED HDR LCD TV: First Look - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by babator View Post
How is an edge-lit LCD so different from a FALD in a starfield, though? There will not be enough zones in any case - an OLED with good shadow details is pretty much the only option if you want both the blackness of space and brightness of stars.

If purer QD primaries can avoid the usual blue-tinted shadows caused by the LED backlight, a starfield may actually look better on an edge-lit LCD than a FALD.
Not true, many FALD that have high enough zone counts can reproduce star fields with excellence. Of course an OLED or plasma will be better, but to say there is no difference is ignorant. Yes, a 64 zone FALD wont be much better, but the Z9D will not have issues with this.
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post #272 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 01:21 PM
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Forgot to add, while I mention the Z9D it should be noted that the FALD 648-zone monster that is the Z9D retails for $500 less than the Q9, and reaches similar brightness levels while having better picture processing, dolby vision, and useable features.
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post #273 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 01:27 PM
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Samsung's response here was that the panels used at CES were prototypes, not production.
Let me see if I have this right. The thing they were showing to the world less than 3 months ago has a different pixel structure than what they're selling? Not just an outdated firmware or something like that, but a different panel pixel structure?
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post #274 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 01:33 PM
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Let me see if I have this right. The thing they were showing to the world less than 3 months ago has a different pixel structure than what they're selling? Not just an outdated firmware or something like that, but a different panel pixel structure?
You seem to have read it correctly.

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post #275 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Let me see if I have this right. The thing they were showing to the world less than 3 months ago has a different pixel structure than what they're selling? Not just an outdated firmware or something like that, but a different panel pixel structure?
That's where we're at as of now, yes. The shipping product has a different (and more typical) sub-pixel structure. This Q9 panel resembles the panel on the KS9800.

Next year at CES, I'm shooting everyone's TV with a macro lens and documenting the sub-pixel structures for all the new models I see on the show floor.

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post #276 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 01:38 PM
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Not true, many FALD that have high enough zone counts can reproduce star fields with excellence. Of course an OLED or plasma will be better, but to say there is no difference is ignorant. Yes, a 64 zone FALD wont be much better, but the Z9D will not have issues with this.
There are not many FALDs with the zone count of a Z9D. How many zones is enough for a convincing difference to a 32 zone edge lit Q9? 100, 200, 500, 1000? What I have noticed is that for me, if FALD zone blooming has a different (usually blue) tint to the in-eye blooming caused by a bright object in the middle of the zone, it looks more noticeable than a little bit larger blooming zone that is tint-free. And this is one reason why I am interested in imagic's A/B comparison and will not just take it as a given that it will suck just as bad as every single edge-lit LCD ever.
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post #277 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
That's where we're at as of now, yes. The shipping product has a different (and more typical) sub-pixel structure. This Q9 panel resembles the panel on the KS9800.

Next year at CES, I'm shooting everyone's TV with a macro lens and documenting the sub-pixel structures for all the new models I see on the show floor.
Well, this is ridiculous. I am trying to be fair and give Samsung at least a little benefit of the doubt and they pull stunts like this... really, they are starting to remind me of Nokia around 2008.
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post #278 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 01:44 PM
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Well, this is ridiculous. I am trying to be fair and give Samsung at least a little benefit of the doubt and they pull stunts like this... really, they are starting to remind me of Nokia around 2008.
And look where that got Nokia...
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post #279 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 01:52 PM
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And look where that got Nokia...
Well, of course there is a possible comparison that could be made...
- going it alone with Meego, then Windows Phone, for strategic reasons, as the world is going Android
- going it alone with QLED (the real thing will be here any year! surely no delays!), for strategic reasons, when the rest of the world is going LG OLED

No Microsoft plant CEOs in sight, however, so Samsung will survive this
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post #280 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 01:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Gotcha. Well, it's true. And, I just took a close-up of the Q9 and it too has regular a typical sub-pixel layout. Samsung's response here was that the panels used at CES were prototypes, not production.


Samsung Q9 sub-pixels close-up.
Wow, this is a really interesting development. It is sounding more and more like Samsung got caught flat footed that QDCF was not ready and just threw out a whole bunch of smoke and mirrors to prevent LG from totally taking the high end market. Like I said, the Q9 may have been a fine display for the price had it come out 3 years ago, but other than form factor there is nothing new here.

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post #281 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Gotcha. Well, it's true. And, I just took a close-up of the Q9 and it too has regular a typical sub-pixel layout. Samsung's response here was that the panels used at CES were prototypes, not production.


Samsung Q9 sub-pixels close-up.
Wow, this is just stunning. I took the trouble to go to CES, to report on what I witnessed at thecSamsung booth, including impressively improved viewibg angle, pixels that 'shimmered' when viewed from within 1.5-times screen width, and visible color-banding on dark tones that concerned me.

All of that effort was for naught.

If I had been excited about the Q9 based on what I saw at CES and purchased one sight-unseen based on that experience, I would be an exceedingly unhappy AVSer right now.

Is Samsung's behaviour illegal? No. Is it insulting? Yes. Unethical is a fuzzier boundry, but this is touching it.

Maybe I should ask Samsung to refund my trip .

These 2017 QLED TVs are nothing more than very bright QDEF-enhanced conventional edge-it LED/LCDs...
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post #282 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 02:06 PM
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I'm very surprised by the Pixel structure , is basically a normal VA panel.

I mean, it is a very good display for bright scenes ,but I was expecting more given the new name Qled.

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post #283 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 02:13 PM
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I'm very surprised by the Pixel structure , is basically a normal VA panel.

I mean it seems like a very good display for bright scenes but I was expecting more given the new name Qled.
Not meant to be mean - but I think you must be the only serious AVSer videophile who expected the whole QLED marketing BS to mean anything different then what Samsung does year after year with how they name the same VA panels. On the other hand I've got a KS8000 (49") in the bedroom which I really like, but I'm not watching TV in a cave - at least not long or with my eyes open

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post #284 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 02:27 PM
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Not meant to be mean - but I think you must be the only serious AVSer videophile who expected the whole QLED marketing BS to mean anything different then what Samsung does year after year with how they name the same VA panels. On the other hand I've got a KS8000 (49") in the bedroom which I really like, but I'm not watching TV in a cave - at least not long or with my eyes open
Is ok , I still have hopes for emmisive Qled, if Oled doesn't come up first with their high efficient blue light and QD.

In the emissive world I have no preference ,at least that's what I feel so far.
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post #285 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 02:49 PM
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There are not many FALDs with the zone count of a Z9D. How many zones is enough for a convincing difference to a 32 zone edge lit Q9? 100, 200, 500, 1000? What I have noticed is that for me, if FALD zone blooming has a different (usually blue) tint to the in-eye blooming caused by a bright object in the middle of the zone, it looks more noticeable than a little bit larger blooming zone that is tint-free. And this is one reason why I am interested in imagic's A/B comparison and will not just take it as a given that it will suck just as bad as every single edge-lit LCD ever.
Whether or not there are many FALDs with that zone count is irrelevant, my point was that the Z9D is better in every way but $500 cheaper. In my opinion, a FALD needs at least a few hundred dimming zones to be competitive in todays high end display market. LG has really shook things up with OLED, and for the better. I have to give them tremendous props for doing what they did. Realize that if LG had not gambled and went ahead with OLED that we would only have the LCD for the mass market, with no other options. Plasma had died, and things were looking grim. You should have zero interest in Mark's A/B comparison. Why? Because no gimmick the Q9 could come up with would justify it. For the money, or I should say much less money, you can get a better display. It really is that cut and dry. The QLED's are edge-lit LCD televisions with QD's, as has been the case for years now. Even the Chinese are releasing new FALD LCD's with massive zone counts. Will they outperform the Q9? You bet! And for a fraction of the cost. Now the user interface may suck, and it may have bugs, but thats another issue in itself. Its been predicted that the Chinese takeover of the LCD market was imminent. We are just now seeing this become reality, and LG will be the one laughing all the way to the bank as Sony, Samsung, Panasonic etc. beg LG to license their technology. If you think Samsung is even remotely close to releasing emissive QD technology think again. They couldn't even bring a new LCD matrix to market, the very new matrix they claimed was able to drastically improve viewing angles and a host of other claims.
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post #286 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 02:51 PM
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Also, Mark has reported that the QLED series has recieved UHD premium certification. At ces, multiple reps were unsure if the tvs would qualify based on small technical issues. Well I'm curious if the ces prototypes would not pass certification but the consumer models (which may be different,) DO pass the tests.
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Sony hasn't been on the picture quality throne since 2005 or something though... Last time I considered them to have the best TV on the market was the Sony XBR 960-970 CRT HD TV


But that said, Sony finally entering the OLED market... I think the Sony A1E OLED will actually be the best TV of the year.
The 2005 Sony SXRD LYCoS I bought in 2005 was on the RPG throne at least before most of them blew the light engine out .

I went from that to Plasma for my primary display for a good while with Toshiba and Sony 1080P LCD in here until making this room and my 2015 Sony 55X850C the primary display in here , the 2013-2014 Samung 64f8500 1080p Plasma in my sig remains out front and the family likes it fine .

Sony was on the throne from maybe at 1968 to 2005 or longer in the retail TV picture quality markets and has regained it for sure in 2017 .

AFAIK Sony while late to LCD owned direct view LCD for a while ouside of maybe 3 or 4 yrs or 5 yrs of range topping Samsung LCD but 2005-2010 I never followed them much so I may be off on that 2005-2011 -2012 business

IMO overall Samsung LCD is real decent and I thought better than Sony at least in 2013 -2014 LCD and the 2015 Samsung JS8500 is arguably better than my 2015 Sony X850C anyway and that's what I observed but no regrets with the Sony X850C at Q4 pricing here it's still putting out a pretty fair picture for what it is but an upgrade may happen

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post #288 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 03:09 PM
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The 2005 Sony SXRD LYCoS I bought in 2005 was on the RPG throne at least before most of them blew the light engine out .

I went from that to Plasma for my primary display for a good while with Toshiba and Sony 1080P LCD in here until making this room and my 2015 Sony 55X850C the primary display in here , the 2013-2014 Samung 64f8500 1080p Plasma in my sig remains out front and the family likes it fine .

Sony was on the throne from maybe at 1968 to 2005 or longer in the retail TV picture quality markets and has regained it for sure in 2017 .

AFAIK Sony while late to LCD owned direct view LCD for a while ouside of maybe 3 or 4 yrs of range topping Samsung LCD but 2005-2010 I never followed them much so I may be off on that 2005-2011 business .
Sadly, Sony still hasn't fixed the SXRD degradation issues. Ive had a few SXRD based projectors, including a mits HC5 and an HW65 and all have had failed light engines that required new SXRD panels and light filters. It sure is amazing though, while it lasts...
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Whether or not there are many FALDs with that zone count is irrelevant, my point was that the Z9D is better in every way but $500 cheaper. In my opinion, a FALD needs at least a few hundred dimming zones to be competitive in todays high end display market. LG has really shook things up with OLED, and for the better. I have to give them tremendous props for doing what they did. Realize that if LG had not gambled and went ahead with OLED that we would only have the LCD for the mass market, with no other options. Plasma had died, and things were looking grim. You should have zero interest in Mark's A/B comparison. Why? Because no gimmick the Q9 could come up with would justify it. For the money, or I should say much less money, you can get a better display. It really is that cut and dry. The QLED's are edge-lit LCD televisions with QD's, as has been the case for years now. Even the Chinese are releasing new FALD LCD's with massive zone counts. Will they outperform the Q9? You bet! And for a fraction of the cost. Now the user interface may suck, and it may have bugs, but thats another issue in itself. Its been predicted that the Chinese takeover of the LCD market was imminent. We are just now seeing this become reality, and LG will be the one laughing all the way to the bank as Sony, Samsung, Panasonic etc. beg LG to license their technology. If you think Samsung is even remotely close to releasing emissive QD technology think again. They couldn't even bring a new LCD matrix to market, the very new matrix they claimed was able to drastically improve viewing angles and a host of other claims.
I count 10 conjectures. Anyone want to do a recount?
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post #290 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 05:03 PM
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I count 10 conjectures. Anyone want to do a recount?

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post #291 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 05:05 PM
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That's where we're at as of now, yes. The shipping product has a different (and more typical) sub-pixel structure. This Q9 panel resembles the panel on the KS9800.

Next year at CES, I'm shooting everyone's TV with a macro lens and documenting the sub-pixel structures for all the new models I see on the show floor.
Is it possible to get a better explanation of the panel at CES versus the one in the shipping Q9 from Samsung, other than "the CES panel was a prototype"?

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post #292 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Is it possible to get a better explanation of the panel at CES versus the one in the shipping Q9 from Samsung, other than "the CES panel was a prototype"?
Well let's be careful before derailing the train... it looks like what we're talking about is a rendering technique, not a sub-pixel layout.

Just consider this quote from David Mackenzie and HDTVtest:

"As with those similar methods from other manufacturers, full white areas of the screen in Samsung’s QLED implementation appear as RGB stripe, with the different pixel rendering technique becoming more visible in the darker and mid tones."

Here's his whole article: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/qled-...1701044404.htm

So let me have another look because per his description, the QLEDs at CES would in fact render a standard LGB stripe after all.

Could be that some alarmists are making this into a bigger deal than it is.

Looking into it...

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post #293 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks to me like there's confusion between pixel rendering technique and sub-pixel layout. All this hulbaloo appears to be over algorithms for sub-pixel rendering techniques, and not physical properties of one panel vs. another.

Here's a different picture using actual content... you can see the similarity to the pattern shown in the HDTVtest image...



HDTVtest CES QLED sub-pixel rendering





Review unit Q9 sub-pixel rendering with real content.

Sorry folks, the confusion comes from mistaking a pixel-rendering algorithm for a fundamental difference in sub-pixel structure.

Next year it's gonna be necessary to take photos of the sub-pixels of all the TVs while in Vegas. Don't need to go through this confusion again.

So yeah, while its probably true the CES prototypes and shipping TVs have panels from different sources, in the end we're still talking VA LCD panels for both CES and for the shipping TVs. No conspiracy best I can tell, just misunderstanding.

Too bad some folks who would rather flame Samsung than try to work things out reasonably and constructively.
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post #294 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 05:41 PM
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can you talk about prices in this thread? because its already on the main samsung site.
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post #295 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 05:53 PM
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Looks to me like there's confusion between pixel rendering technique and sub-pixel layout. All this hulbaloo appears to be over algorithms for sub-pixel rendering techniques, and not physical properties of one panel vs. another.

Here's a different picture using actual content... you can see the similarity to the pattern shown in the HDTVtest image...



HDTVtest CES QLED sub-pixel rendering





Review unit Q9 sub-pixel rendering with real content.

Sorry folks, the confusion comes from mistaking a pixel-rendering algorithm for a fundamental difference in sub-pixel structure.

Next year it's gonna be necessary to take photos of the sub-pixels of all the TVs while in Vegas. Don't need to go through this confusion again.

So yeah, while its probably true the CES prototypes and shipping TVs have panels from different sources, in the end we're still talking VA LCD panels for both CES and for the shipping TVs. No conspiracy best I can tell, just misunderstanding.

Too bad some folks who would rather flame Samsung than try to work things out reasonably and constructively.
OK, interesting, if a bit confusing for me. I was under the impression that there was a different subpixel layout on the QLED panels versus standard VA type LCD, and that this unique subpixel layout results in the improved viewing angles for the QLED TVs. I am guessing that this impression was wrong, and that any improvement in viewing angles in the QLED's is not due to a different subpixel layout?

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post #296 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, interesting, if a bit confusing for me. I was under the impression that there was a different subpixel layout on the QLED panels versus standard VA type LCD, and that this unique subpixel layout results in the improved viewing angles for the QLED TVs. I am guessing that this impression was wrong, and that any improvement in viewing angles in the QLED's is not due to a different subpixel layout?
Nope it's the sub-pixel rendering, not the layout. Just an algorithm, and now that I understand it, clearly one the Q9 I have uses (per the photo). Key parts of David's article:

"When viewed up close, the majority of the images shown on the QLED LCD panels did not appear with the traditional RGB stripe layout, but instead were displayed with a cross-hatch pattern."

"As with those similar methods from other manufacturers, full white areas of the screen in Samsung’s QLED implementation appear as RGB stripe, with the different pixel rendering technique becoming more visible in the darker and mid tones."
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post #297 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:03 PM
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Nope it's the sub-pixel rendering, not the layout. Just an algorithm. Key parts of David's article:

"When viewed up close, the majority of the images shown on the QLED LCD panels did not appear with the traditional RGB stripe layout, but instead were displayed with a cross-hatch pattern."

"As with those similar methods from other manufacturers, full white areas of the screen in Samsung’s QLED implementation appear as RGB stripe, with the different pixel rendering technique becoming more visible in the darker and mid tones."
OK thanks! I will give that David MacKenzie article a good read.

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post #298 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Looks to me like there's confusion between pixel rendering technique and sub-pixel layout. All this hulbaloo appears to be over algorithms for sub-pixel rendering techniques, and not physical properties of one panel vs. another.

Here's a different picture using actual content... you can see the similarity to the pattern shown in the HDTVtest image...



HDTVtest CES QLED sub-pixel rendering





Review unit Q9 sub-pixel rendering with real content.

Sorry folks, the confusion comes from mistaking a pixel-rendering algorithm for a fundamental difference in sub-pixel structure.

Next year it's gonna be necessary to take photos of the sub-pixels of all the TVs while in Vegas. Don't need to go through this confusion again.

So yeah, while its probably true the CES prototypes and shipping TVs have panels from different sources, in the end we're still talking VA LCD panels for both CES and for the shipping TVs. No conspiracy best I can tell, just misunderstanding.

Too bad some folks who would rather flame Samsung than try to work things out reasonably and constructively.
You do realize VA panels come in different flavors right? With varying sub-pixel structures? The two images look nothing alike. They might both be VA type panels, but the sub-pixel structures are indeed different. It also appears the CES panel has a RBG order, while your image has a RGB order. The image could be flipped, but not likely.
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post #299 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
You do realize VA panels come in different flavors right? With varying sub-pixel structures? The two images look nothing alike. They might both be VA type panels, but the sub-pixel structures are indeed different. It also appears the CES panel has a RBG order, while your image has a RGB order. The image could be flipped, but not likely.
Oh my pic is upside-down, lol... silly cell phone. fixing it.

Anyhow, take a minute and read David's article because in the end we're talking about a sub-pixel rendering algorithm and not a radical new physical sub-pixel structure, and there's no indication Samsung claimed anything different. Indeed, as David notes Samsung did not draw attention to it at all.
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Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum

Last edited by imagic; 03-20-2017 at 06:15 PM.
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post #300 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
Mark Henninger
 
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Heres more compelling evidence, a Samsung PVA panel, with the same RBG (BGR) layout:
Evidence of what? That you have nothing better to do than gun for having the most posts in this thread?

Edit - oh I guess you deleted that.

It's late. Beer time.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum

Last edited by imagic; 03-20-2017 at 06:20 PM.
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