Samsung Q9 65″ QLED HDR LCD TV: First Look - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Evidence of what? That you have nothing better to do than gun for having the most posts in this thread?

Edit - oh I guess you deleted that.

It's late. Beer time.
Deleted after you claiming you flipped your image (hmmm, we will have to wait for Rtings to confirm this). Maybe I should post your deleted post? You know, the one you deleted almost immediately after posting but that I have record of?

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post #302 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mithras1 View Post
A whopping day ago I pretty much flat out said it : Samsung QLED TVs at CES 2017
player002 actually guestimated it earlier as well (don't know on what basis as it seemed very unlikely at the time; but I suppose the Rtings review might have already mentioned it had an AA01 panel, something I only noticed yesterday) Samsung QLED TVs at CES 2017
And earlier in this topic I already remarked about the difference in pixel structures: Samsung Q9 65″ QLED HDR LCD TV: First Look

That AUO panel simply doesn't have this new QLED 'dual-pixel' structure


[credit: Hardwarezone Sing]

One of these days I'll take a closeup of the pixels myself (when the skies clear up that is ). Either they put the internals of an MU model in these 55" Q7's or they took a headstart on their annual panel lottery
Ya I kinda new it was AUO panel because Samsung likes to use them in lower end 4k sets. The AA01 panel I saw 2 and they looked completly different than 65 inch they seems dimmer and one had really bad banding..Bottom line to my eyes it seemed like it had a inferior panel. Samsung panels 99% of the time will not have such bad banding(Samsung made ones) they have much higher QC. Like I said 65 inch looked much better I suspect Panel Lottery on 55 inch entry Q7..
Edit: Oh I also remember the pixel response seemed slow I could see trails/Smearing

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post #303 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:35 PM
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Ya I kinda new it was AUO panel because Samsung likes to use them in lower end 4k sets. The AA01 panel I saw 2 and they looked completly different than 65 inch they seems dimmer and one had really bad banding..Bottom line to my eyes it seemed like it had a inferior panel. Samsung panels 99% of the time will not have such bad banding(Samsung made ones) they have much higher QC. Like I said 65 inch looked much better I suspect Panel Lottery on 55 inch entry Q7..
Here is the 55 incher with really bad banding
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SWu1-pZ9UQ
One possibility for this may be because AUO would be sending Samsung the bare panel, with no backlight or diffusers attached while Samsung would be manufacturing the panel with the backlight. Banding says nothing about the quality of the panel, but rather the quality of how it was assembled with the backlight. Banding is caused by the layers behind the LCD panel, not the panel itself.
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post #304 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:38 PM
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By the way, AUO actually is the leader in LCD panel manufacturing. I would rather have an AUO panel over a Samsung panel. Have a look: http://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/panel-lottery-samsung Samsung had the worst panel overall.
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post #305 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Deleted after you claiming you flipped your image (hmmm, we will have to wait for Rtings to confirm this). Maybe I should post your deleted post? You know, the one you deleted almost immediately after posting but that I have record of?
Yes, please do. You make this thread fun and interesting. That post was kinda just for you but if you want to share, we're all adults here.

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post #306 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:42 PM
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Yes, please do. You make this thread fun and interesting.
I think the kid with the beer takes that position.
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post #307 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I think the kid with the beer takes that position.
Hey, I've done my job when a thread stays popular and gets lots of clicks, and you have been quite helpful in that regard so thanks.

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post #308 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:47 PM
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Hey, I've done my job when a thread stays popular and gets lots of clicks, and you have been quite helpful in that regard so thanks.
Oh trust me, its been clear you care about nothing more than your numbers, and staying on Samsung's nice list. Such an unbiased, honest contributor to these forums.
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post #309 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:51 PM
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Meh.. Is this a soap opera or a review thread?!? This **** is getting old now..

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post #310 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:52 PM
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Meh.. Is this a soap opera or a review thread?!? This **** is getting old now..
That depends what you mean by review?
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post #311 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
Oh trust me, its been clear you care about nothing more than your numbers, and staying on Samsung's nice list. Such an unbiased, honest contributor to these forums.
Like I said I thank you for your contributions. Good stuff.

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post #312 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Meh.. Is this a soap opera or a review thread?!? This **** is getting old now..
Review is coming soon. This is just noise, guess *UFO* is bored.
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post #313 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:56 PM
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Put him on ignore like everyone else has and move on already.

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post #314 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Put him on ignore like everyone else has and move on already.
Lol

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post #315 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 07:10 PM
 
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Alright, well I am confused. So Samsung's claims of increased viewing angles (yes I have the article where they claim that) is achieved by sub pixel rendering manipulation and not any new cross hatch pixel structure or tech? QDCF can not come soon enough. When you do have your review done, I suggest you start a new thread and lock this one down. It has clearly gone off the rails.
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post #316 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright, well I am confused. So Samsung's claims of increased viewing angles (yes I have the article where they claim that) is achieved by sub pixel rendering manipulation and not any new cross hatch pixel structure or tech? QDCF can not come soon enough. When you do have your review done, I suggest you start a new thread and lock this one down. It has clearly gone off the rails.
Lol, review will be a new thread. Should be no need to shut this one down. I don't mind people challenging me. A bit stressful but I appreciate critics. Samsung claims better viewing angles in its marketing but the examples relate to color not contrast, which is consistent with the HDTVtest article.

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post #317 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Messy as this process is, and even though I don't love the way some impugn my character, I find that I get to understand what's going on faster than my peers thanks to the back-and-forth of threads like these. Don't see how I could have made it this far withut AVS Forum members and that includes the critics and the skeptics and the people willing to challenge me at every turn.

It has not been that long that I've been doing this, just a few years a a writer. My background in video and imaging and color... much longer. But this is it, my dream job. Writing about AV and audio systems is the culmination of many years of a Hi-Fi hobby mixed with what I learned in a pro career in digital photography and video.

Now, a real chance exists for AVS Forum to have a voice like it's never had before, thanks to the editorial department (myself, Scott Wilkinson - AVS Forum Editor, and Ralph Potts - AVS Forum Blu-ray reviews). AVS Forum still has the voices of all its members, but hey why not embrace behind-the-scenes and first-look access that editorial brings to the table.

It's all good.

And a few uncouth comments are not going to stop anything. Thank you everyone for your support and insights and knowledge and company and all that!

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post #318 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 07:24 PM
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This should not surprise you!!

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Wow, this is just stunning. I took the trouble to go to CES, to report on what I witnessed at thecSamsung booth, including impressively improved viewibg angle, pixels that 'shimmered' when viewed from within 1.5-times screen width, and visible color-banding on dark tones that concerned me.

All of that effort was for naught.

If I had been excited about the Q9 based on what I saw at CES and purchased one sight-unseen based on that experience, I would be an exceedingly unhappy AVSer right now.

Is Samsung's behaviour illegal? No. Is it insulting? Yes. Unethical is a fuzzier boundry, but this is touching it.

Maybe I should ask Samsung to refund my trip .

These 2017 QLED TVs are nothing more than very bright QDEF-enhanced conventional edge-it LED/LCDs...
Samsung had to find a way to make back some of their losses with the millions of phones that were recalled for smoking batteries,, So out comes a high priced TV with somewhat older technology,, However the TV still looks impressive for sure,, but the price seems steep.. Thanks everyone who contributes to this and other AVS forums,, it does help with making that critical buying decision..
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post #319 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Samsung had to find a way to make back some of their losses with the millions of phones that were recalled for smoking batteries,, So out comes a high priced TV with somewhat older technology,, However the TV still looks impressive for sure,, but the price seems steep.. Thanks everyone who contributes to this and other AVS forums,, it does help with making that critical buying decision..
It would appear you do not read financial news. This is a myth, it keeps popping up.

Here's reality: Samsung is making huge profits as Note 7 crisis fades - CNN

QLED pricing has nothing to do with cell phones and Samsung is not in any sort of financial trouble. Back to our regularly scheduled program...
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post #320 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 07:51 PM
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HDTVtest CES QLED sub-pixel rendering





Review unit Q9 sub-pixel rendering with real content.

Sorry folks, the confusion comes from mistaking a pixel-rendering algorithm for a fundamental difference in sub-pixel structure.

It's probably both of those things. An adaptive rendering algorithm made possible by a physical change to the panel structure. A different algorithm alone wouldn't realize advantages to off-angle viewing.

The closeup image of the review unit's layout, on its own, isn't meaningful. We need to know what luminance level the panel is showing when its producing that pattern.

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It's probably both of those things. An adaptive rendering algorithm made possible by a physical change to the panel structure. A different algorithm alone wouldn't realize advantages to off-angle viewing.

The closeup image of the review unit's layout, on its own, isn't meaningful. We need to know what luminance level the panel is showing when its producing that pattern.
OK this conversation... so far has it's been a bit rushed in this thread, but tomorrow as I calibrate... I'll shoot 5%, 10%, 15% gray etc and post.

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post #322 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 07:58 PM
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Yeah, I haven't had time to read it all. What's the point of contention? We know the rendering algorithm is variable (RGB stripe like in full white areas, something different at a certain point darker). Based on the second picture, there's no reason to believe the production version is any different?

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post #323 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 08:09 PM
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This thread is entertaining, and while it has seemed like it would get locked down or derailed completely somehow it continues.

I have been wrong so many times with my comments, Samsung is hard to figure out. I jumped on the Qtrain and ordered a Q7 being a pretty big Samsung fanboy. Then Rtings review came out and I canceled it.

Now apparently a magical firmware update is what is wrong with the Q7, so waiting for that one to pan out. I think that from what I have seen 2017 viewing angles have really not improved much, nothing to put a big percentage around.

There definitely are some improvements with the 2017 Q9, but also no FALD this year, was really hoping for a FALD that was NOT curved. That would be nice, I really do prefer Samsung app support and Tizen OS over Android OS.

Also, everyone is waiting for Mark to review the Q9, but I think he might spend a bit to much time on the forums instead of reviewing :P

I think Sony is really getting into the sweetspot this year, 930e looking pretty good, 900e is basically the same as a KS8000, although Samsung wins the brightness wars it seems. 940e could really be the game changer come Holiday for around 4k. I am very curious as to how many nits it does.

Samsung has given a voice to the naysayers, they predicted pretty much everything that is going on, well its easy to predict failure I guess. TV land changes at such a fast pace, and Sony sets won't even have Dolby Vision until late summer, HDR 10+ might make it to UHD disks but who knows when that is, and we all need HDMI 2.1

I can say that the biggest disappointment was Samsung canceling the evolution program in 2016, would have been nice to know we can spend $300 and get HDMI 2.1 or other major updates on our 1-2 year old sets. Seems like 2018 might be a crazy year for TV.

Somehow, I managed to still have a return/exchange when I started this trek to upgrade my 70" to 75" Samsung last November! Because of backordered sets and poor Samsung quality, here I am getting a new TV from BB on April 1st! That's a 6 month return window. Primarily because it took 3 months to get a couple exchanges for my KS9000....

Thanks for reading my ramble, I mentioned Q9 in this post so I guess it's relevant somehow. Question is, will I be happy with my Sony 940e? Or will the return cycle continue?
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post #324 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 08:15 PM
 
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Heres more compelling evidence, a Samsung PVA panel, with the same RBG (BGR) layout:
Samsung PVA or SPVA ? I believe those may be different quality levels of panels even though later ones may have 3000:1 Contrast up from maybe 1200:1 if computer LCD panels are applicable to all this like they may be at least below HDR .

Scroll down to PVA panels here :

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles...tm#pva_summary
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post #325 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 08:26 PM
 
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Samsung had to find a way to make back some of their losses with the millions of phones that were recalled for smoking batteries,, So out comes a high priced TV with somewhat older technology,, However the TV still looks impressive for sure,, but the price seems steep.. Thanks everyone who contributes to this and other AVS forums,, it does help with making that critical buying decision..
I can appreciate the best TV for my spend and a 65" Sony OLED in here is entirely plausible discretionary cash wise but that doesn't mean it's going to happen with my upgrade cycles and today's broad market scale content but we all may see this differently

LCD FALD and Edge lit + dimming is nothing new Sony is just refining all that albeit maybe significantly like Samsung is maybe doing with the mega watt LED QLED high color volume panels and LGD in turn with the next 2 gen OLED panels and way cool in school super thin LG OLED TV .

Nothing is new on the Sony X900E outside of refinement in the model tier and a lower price Sony FALD derivative and new X1 Chip , even the glass speaker Sony OLED is not a new speaker thing just on a TV but it's all looking good anyway and so is the Sony OLED


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Samsung had to find a way to make back some of their losses with the millions of phones that were recalled for smoking batteries,, So out comes a high priced TV with somewhat older technology

Quote:
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It would appear you do not read financial news. This is a myth, it keeps popping up.

Here's reality: Samsung is making huge profits as Note 7 crisis fades - CNN

QLED pricing has nothing to do with cell phones and Samsung is not in any sort of financial trouble. Back to our regularly scheduled program...
While that Samsung panel skulduggery and non existent losses is a myth and the Samsung Chaebol is *really phaat with bank from profits of more than mayne 4X Sony inc. with Sony inc. declining sales and profit mostly in mobile & comm. and unfavorable foreign currency rates and a 112.1 billion JPY ($920 million) impairment charge of goodwill for Sony Pictures, announced earlier this week........ ,

My pre disposition is that Samsung Q X QLED LCD TV product is a legitimately improved cost effective VA panel content to differentiate at least maybe 2016 -2017 product and or model tiers and be a placeholder for more advanced Pixel X Pixel control QD LED or something like that if it can all scale to mass production TV ,



OTOH , The Greater Samung ROK chaebol has each business segment like Samsung mobile ,Semiconductor ,Electronics and TV, Samsung Display and so on strictly accountable for thier EBIT (earnings ) contributions to the greater Samsung chaebol bottom line and that no joke it's the same thing at Hyundai and LG Chaebols and ROK business 101 .

The thing is a lot of folks just don't understand but what they hear in the lame stream news sound bytes and blogs or on forums that are more often with lamestream news and Blogs rubbish for ratings and clickbait outside of the legitimate financial l news venus .


I managed at 4 global multinationals that gobbled up some name brands for maybe 3.5 decades . I've seen and worked as part of incredible things at incredulous scale including our going into China ,the eastern Bloc and so on and we have been global for nearly 100 years at my longest 28 yr groove that keeps me well covered in retirement .

TBH IMO anyone that doesn't think Samsung & LG TV and Samsung & LG Display are still in a long game like the emerging brand PRC mainland & Taiwan inc. trifecta of Hisense TCL and Foxconn /Sharp doesn't understand the ROK Chaebols ,ROK culture or these other cultures and thier business constructs or Japan inc. ,China ,ROK and North American business /trade history that includes NAFTA ,nation rebuilding trade constructs since WWII and so on ,the Trifecta above bears watching .


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post #326 of 608 Old 03-20-2017, 10:52 PM
 
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This thread is entertaining, and while it has seemed like it would get locked down or derailed completely somehow it continues.

I can say that the biggest disappointment was Samsung canceling the evolution program in 2016,
That would make me unhappy and with no 2014 Sony 4K SDR to HDR ,upgrade path or HDMI 2.0 and Samsung connect complaints and scores of DOA or failing connect boxes and prolonged replacements , all that kept me out of the market to replace the 2013 1080p Sony Bravia rubbish that had a 6 bit + frc panel that couldn't go over 185 NIT by LED spec. or make accurate colors ( don't get me going on that rubbish )

I replaced the Sony Bravia Rubbish with an arguably decent 2015 4K HDR Sony Triluminos X850C deliberately a late production model because of the many bad panels in earlier ones that could have been an arguably better and definitely brighter Samsung SUHD JS 8550 that I'm sure would have been fine .

OTOH Sony has significantly improved X850C all over including the SDR/ HDR processing and max brightness with the last 2 - 2016 firmware upgrades and the newest Android 6 platform and more of all that coming in 2017 including Android 7 Nougat for the 2015 XBR TV's and all the new ones .



Quote:
Thanks for reading my ramble, I mentioned Q9 in this post so I guess it's relevant somehow. Question is, will I be happy with my Sony 940e? Or will the return cycle continue?
TBH I think the legendary Sony XBR TV build quality is as good as it gets on a retail TV outside of randomly defective LCD cells they don't make and having been inside modern Sony LCD they still use primo Rubycon and Nichicon 105° C low ESR capacitors

I've never had a Sony Trinitron or Sony XBR or XBR Wega TV fail since I started buying them in 1993 with no regrets at all

I think 2013- 2014 was the rubbish TV year for Samsung and Sony LCD they had up to five large and more spendy Sony 4K SDR XBR with no upgrade path to HDMI 2.0 or HDR10 or anthing and tons of panel defects going into 2015 X850C ,X900C production so I bought my excellent Samsung 64 f8500 Plasma in late 2013 or early 2014 for the front room it's fine there for a good while the color is fabulous compared to 8 bit LED/LCD and Plasma 1080p at the view distance there is well beyond OK .

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post #327 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 02:46 AM
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Looks to me like there's confusion between pixel rendering technique and sub-pixel layout. All this hulbaloo appears to be over algorithms for sub-pixel rendering techniques, and not physical properties of one panel vs. another.

Here's a different picture using actual content... you can see the similarity to the pattern shown in the HDTVtest image...



HDTVtest CES QLED sub-pixel rendering





Review unit Q9 sub-pixel rendering with real content.

Sorry folks, the confusion comes from mistaking a pixel-rendering algorithm for a fundamental difference in sub-pixel structure.

Next year it's gonna be necessary to take photos of the sub-pixels of all the TVs while in Vegas. Don't need to go through this confusion again.

So yeah, while its probably true the CES prototypes and shipping TVs have panels from different sources, in the end we're still talking VA LCD panels for both CES and for the shipping TVs. No conspiracy best I can tell, just misunderstanding.

Too bad some folks who would rather flame Samsung than try to work things out reasonably and constructively.
Oh I see it now, will take a look as well tomorrow. Wonder why they said it was a prototype then?
It looked/looks like every other line the pixels are shifted on the CES panel (as in an actual cross hatch) but I guess it's just dark

Last edited by mithras1; 03-21-2017 at 03:09 AM.
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post #328 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 02:54 AM
 
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Samsung reveals prices for Q9 "QLED" LCD TVs, starting at $6000 Yikes

Quote:
As you may know, Samsung will be selling edge-lit LCD TVs under the “QLED” brand in 2017. The Q refers to the quantum dot technology that can help boost peak brightness and widen the color gamut

Samsung’s 2017 flagship TV, the Q9, will be priced to match OLED. If you want the 65” version you will have to spend $6000 dollars. The TVs are up for pre-order now.

But can souped-up LCD technology match OLED? Samsung believes so, which is why the products are priced to match OLED. A 65-inch Q9 will set you back $6000 dollars, which matches LG’s 65” E7 OLED and is $500 dollars cheaper than Sony's 65” A1 OLED.

A 75” Q9 will cost $10,000, which on the other hand is significantly cheaper than LG’s 77” OLED TVs.

Samsung 2017 “QLED” LCD TV pricing

Q7 flat - Q7F:
55” $2,799.99
65” $3,999.99
75” $5,999.99
Q7 curved - Q7C:
55” $2,999.99
65” $4,299.99
Q8 curved - Q8C:
55” $3,499.99
65” $4,799.99
65” $6,799.99
Q9 flat - Q9F:
65” $5,999.99
75” $9,999.99
More : http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...+flagship+LCDs
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post #329 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 03:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mithras1 View Post
Oh I see it now, will take a look as well tomorrow. Wonder why they said it was a prototype then?
It looked/looks like every other line the pixels are shifted on the CES panel (as in an actual cross hatch) but I guess it's just dark
Basically, all TVs at CES that are not shipping models are prototypes, and that's the case every year. Perhaps the confusion is it's a prototype TV as opposed to the panel itself being the prototype. Semantic salad? I guess on the CES panel the RGB stripes are shifted/offset on alternating lines. Not sure how relevant that is to anything but if you are looking for a difference in the panels, I guess that's it.

I gotta stay off these QLED threads today or I'll never get my Q9 calibrations done. It may be mostly gossip, but sometimes it's addictive to jump into the fray.
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Mark Henninger

Last edited by imagic; 03-21-2017 at 07:20 AM.
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post #330 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 07:09 AM
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Thank You!

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It would appear you do not read financial news. This is a myth, it keeps popping up.

Here's reality: Samsung is making huge profits as Note 7 crisis fades - CNN

QLED pricing has nothing to do with cell phones and Samsung is not in any sort of financial trouble. Back to our regularly scheduled program...
WOW, that was over before it started with the company! I wonder if VW is as well off with its fines and such with the diesel cars emission issue? In any case thanks for the correction and updated information..
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