Samsung Q9 65â?³ QLED HDR LCD TV: First Look - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mithras1 View Post
Oh I see it now, will take a look as well tomorrow. Wonder why they said it was a prototype then?
It looked/looks like every other line the pixels are shifted on the CES panel (as in an actual cross hatch) but I guess it's just dark
I see what you are saying, RGB stripe but with the per-line shift, that is indeed different. OK got it. Aside from explaining why the displays at CES seem to have particularly large pixels (for a 4K display) I'm not sure how much (if any) significance to ascribe to that change, in and of itself.

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post #332 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lyris View Post
It's probably both of those things. An adaptive rendering algorithm made possible by a physical change to the panel structure. A different algorithm alone wouldn't realize advantages to off-angle viewing.

The closeup image of the review unit's layout, on its own, isn't meaningful. We need to know what luminance level the panel is showing when its producing that pattern.
No unusual patterns when measuring grayscale from 5% to 100% (5% increments) Necessarily, I used variable exposure, so what you see it the relative luminace of the sub-pixels.

Q9 macro image of SDR grayscale patch pixels, 5% to 100% luminance running left to right, top to bottom.

Open in new tab and zoom to 100% to view properly.
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post #333 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 08:40 AM
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That does look like they changed the addressing. Although at CES, all I had to go from was demo videos, I had no control over the display. (The only opportunity where we might have been able to feed one test patterns wasn't possible because Samsung's PR team didn't have a remote and we couldn't get any to work).

Does it have the 'cross-hatched' appearance at all with any content as opposed to flat patterns?

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post #334 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lyris View Post
That does look like they changed the addressing. Although at CES, all I had to go from was demo videos, I had no control over the display. (The only opportunity where we might have been able to feed one test patterns wasn't possible because Samsung's PR team didn't have a remote and we couldn't get any to work).

Does it have the 'cross-hatched' appearance at all with any content as opposed to flat patterns?
That's what yesterday's picture was about. I'll have more images from content in a bit. Thank you for taking a look.
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post #335 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by lyris View Post
That does look like they changed the addressing. Although at CES, all I had to go from was demo videos, I had no control over the display. (The only opportunity where we might have been able to feed one test patterns wasn't possible because Samsung's PR team didn't have a remote and we couldn't get any to work).

Does it have the 'cross-hatched' appearance at all with any content as opposed to flat patterns?
I was at CES, I saw the Q9 panels there, and I saw the 'white dots' in dark areas corresponding to image you showed in your HDTVTEST article.

I also saw the remarkable improvements to off-angle color accuracy.

And I also saw the 'sparkles/shimmers' from within 1-1.5 screen widths, especially on dark (but not black) areas of the screen.

So aside from these screen shots of pixel zooms (none of which has yet shown the same 'crosshatched/whte-dot' pattern of your HDTVTEST photo, my question for you, Mark, or anyone else having a Q9 in front of them is: 'does the image shimmer/sparkle from up close?'
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post #336 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I was at CES, I saw the Q9 panels there, and I saw the 'white dots' in dark areas corresponding to image you showed in your HDTVTEST article.

I also saw the remarkable improvements to off-angle color accuracy.

And I also saw the 'sparkles/shimmers' from within 1-1.5 screen widths, especially on dark (but not black) areas of the screen.

So aside from these screen shots of pixel zooms (none of which has yet shown the same 'crosshatched/whte-dot' pattern of your HDTVTEST photo, my question for you, Mark, or anyone else having a Q9 in front of them is: 'does the image shimmer/sparkle from up close?'
No I have not seen that at all.

It continues to be a near dead-ringer for the KS9800 aside from having the ability to express more color and handle highlights better, while on a few very rare occasions showing slightly reduced contrast versus the KS9800 due to the edgelit vs. FALD thing.

I already posted that contrast drops pretty fast off-axis. The "better than IPS contast" viewing cone is around 50-60 degrees. But, there's no question that if its viewed way off-axis there's a loss of saturation and contrast. No color shift though.

I'm gonna take a bunch of macro shots later but... oh man I got sucked in again, lol. No really, I'm just taking breaks from calibration sessions.

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post #337 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 09:32 AM
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That's very good news... I found the crosshatched look offputting.

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post #338 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by lyris View Post
That's very good news... I found the crosshatched look offputting.
I was concerned that the 'sparkles/shimmers' might be off-putting to consumers, so from that point of view, their dissapearance is good news.

On the other hand, adding up what you and Mark are reporting is convincing me that Samsung has elected to back-off from the use of their new viewing-angle-enhancing LCD technology and go with conventional VA-LCD panels (possibly sourced from third parties such as AUO).

So comparing these 2017 QLED/LCD TVs to the 2016 SUHD/LCD TVs, the only real differences appear to be a slightly improved QDEF layer and increased brightness. Better than nothing but hardly the technology breakthrough that Samsung promised to address the poor off-angle viewing limitations of VA-LCD:
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post #339 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 11:03 AM
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https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/03/s...ralian-review/
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I was concerned that the 'sparkles/shimmers' might be off-putting to consumers, so from that point of view, their dissapearance is good news.

On the other hand, adding up what you and Mark are reporting is convincing me that Samsung has elected to back-off from the use of their new viewing-angle-enhancing LCD technology and go with conventional VA-LCD panels (possibly sourced from third parties such as AUO).

So comparing these 2017 QLED/LCD TVs to the 2016 SUHD/LCD TVs, the only real differences appear to be a slightly improved QDEF layer and increased brightness. Better than nothing but hardly the technology breakthrough that Samsung promised to address the poor off-angle viewing limitations of VA-LCD:

NanoCell is LG, but I agree with your point. Samsung sold us smoke and mirrors.
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I was concerned that the 'sparkles/shimmers' might be off-putting to consumers, so from that point of view, their disappearance is good news.


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NanoCell is LG, but I agree with your point. Samsung sold us smoke and mirrors.
You two think 2017 to whenever Samsung QLED LCD is maybe a placeholder for some Samsung QDLED or whatever pixel X pixel megawatt 100% bt.2020 emission love or no ?

I"m thinking that may be related to no 2017 Samsung product direct LED FALD investment or no ?
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I was concerned that the 'sparkles/shimmers' might be off-putting to consumers, so from that point of view, their dissapearance is good news.

On the other hand, adding up what you and Mark are reporting is convincing me that Samsung has elected to back-off from the use of their new viewing-angle-enhancing LCD technology and go with conventional VA-LCD panels (possibly sourced from third parties such as AUO).

So comparing these 2017 QLED/LCD TVs to the 2016 SUHD/LCD TVs, the only real differences appear to be a slightly improved QDEF layer and increased brightness. Better than nothing but hardly the technology breakthrough that Samsung promised to address the poor off-angle viewing limitations of VA-LCD:
ahhh ha so I was right!!!! In all seriousness great work by all involved when we work together things get done...
I think Rtings should grab a 65 inch and test too.. I noticed a big difference in quality between the 55 and 65. Samsung Panel Lottery? Bad Batch Rtings got?
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post #343 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 12:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I was concerned that the 'sparkles/shimmers' might be off-putting to consumers, so from that point of view, their dissapearance is good news.

On the other hand, adding up what you and Mark are reporting is convincing me that Samsung has elected to back-off from the use of their new viewing-angle-enhancing LCD technology and go with conventional VA-LCD panels (possibly sourced from third parties such as AUO).

So comparing these 2017 QLED/LCD TVs to the 2016 SUHD/LCD TVs, the only real differences appear to be a slightly improved QDEF layer and increased brightness. Better than nothing but hardly the technology breakthrough that Samsung promised to address the poor off-angle viewing limitations of VA-LCD:
I did find off angle viewing much better though on Q8 over last years Ks

Last year there was no big difference apart from Fald on Ks Tv's. This year I think as you go up off axis improves. I read somewhere brightness/nits is higher on Q8 & Q9 over Q7 .. So maybe Q9 has much more improved off axis than Q8 ..
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Originally Posted by player002 View Post
ahhh ha so I was right!!!! In all seriousness great work by all involved when we work together things get done...
I think Rtings should grab a 65 inch and test too.. I noticed a big difference in quality between the 55 and 65. Samsung Panel Lottery? Bad Batch Rtings got?
Soon Rtings will have their whole lab full of Q7s and their 2017 TV budget is exhausted in March

Who knows about panel lottery, it seems like Samsung is really scrambling... if the prototype panels are not quite ready, maybe Samsung will do a Sony and release a mid-year refresh model ("Q95")? Could that be the reason for no FALD so far this year?

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I did find off angle viewing much better though on Q8 over last years Ks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxjE2BD8V3w

Last year there was no big difference apart from Fald on Ks Tv's. This year I think as you go up off axis improves. I read somewhere brightness/nits is higher on Q8 & Q9 over Q7 .. So maybe Q9 has much more improved off axis than Q8 ..
Last year Samsung finally offered SUHD in 75" +
Last year both KS8000 (Q7) and KS9000 (Q9) were basically the same brightness. And really were very close feature wise If not identical.

There are obvious improvements this year, but people who took advantage of a budget deal on a KS8000 had basically the same TV as a KS9000, this year it appears there is a much wider gap leaving the low end price point not near as good. Q7 also bottom Edge-Lit vs Side-Edge lit on Q9.

So much for perfect picture at any angle campaign of 2017. That ship has sailed.

Spoiler!
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post #346 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 02:12 PM
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Rting video Q7 review is ready to watch.

Samsung QLED TVs at CES 2017


Just a remind the Q9 is a side edge lit not bottom edge lit. Both have different backlight performance.

The Q9 backlight should perform better with almost 3 times the dimming zones. Q7 12 and Q9 32. Also the Q9 letter box turn off.


I don't think that there is any major issue about this displays except for the price ,specially for edge lit tech.

Once Samsung lower the price ,things will settle down.

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post #347 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Rting video Q7 review is ready to watch.

Samsung QLED TVs at CES 2017

Just a remind the Q9 is a side edge lit not bottom edge lit. Both have different backlight performance.
And another reminder that more measurements of store-bought units need to be done. And that will happen as more people buy them...

Because if... and I'm simply saying if... rtings got two duds (maybe the same batch? from the same Amazon warehouse?) then that would NOT automatically be more representative of what consumers get versus what reviewers get. He's really being quite presumptuous there. I looked at one random example, the KS8000, and rtings had a higher peak measurement than reviewed.com, a site that does get its TVs from Samsung.

My interest piqued, I compared a few more measurements. B6 OLED, reviewed says "over 600 nits" and rtings posts 787 nits. Soon enough, I'm seeing a pattern. What exactly is he talking about? I've gone to reviewed.com, met Lee Neikirk, even put my meter on their reference TV to see how close we are. He's getting good numbers, and they are lower than rtings, and so my only conclusion is that Cedric is making a factually incorrect assertion in claiming his TVs are dimmer because he bought 'em instead of getting 'em from Samsung, and that's the end of the story.

As I've noted before but it's worth repeating, aside from the time it takes, it's trivially easy for me to get a meter onto a TV that came from a store. Nothing to it. So I can very easily find out if I've been getting "golden samples." In other words, I'd have figured that out by now. Maybe other TV reviewers never measure TVs other than the ones they review? That's not the case with me and I find that whole line of argument insulting.

I don't live in a bubble where the only TVs I see are provided to me by manufacturers. Between AVS members, people seeking calibrations, and dealers I've got all the access I need.


Obviously none of that is that case for a TV that's not for sale yet like the Q9.

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post #348 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 03:20 PM
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And another reminder that more measurements of store-bought units need to be done. And that will happen as more people buy them...

Because if... and I'm simply saying if... rtings got two duds (maybe the same batch? from the same Amazon warehouse?) then that would NOT automatically be more representative of what consumers get versus what reviewers get. He's really being quite presumptuous there. I looked at one random example, the KS8000, and rtings had a higher peak measurement than reviewed.com, a site that does get its TVs from Samsung.

My interest piqued, I compared a few more measurements. B6 OLED, reviewed says "over 600 nits" and rtings posts 787 nits. Soon enough, I'm seeing a pattern. What exactly is he talking about? I've gone to reviewed.com, met Lee Neikirk, even put my meter on their reference TV to see how close we are. He's getting good numbers, and they are lower than rtings, and so my only conclusion is that Cedric is making a factually incorrect assertion in claiming his TVs are dimmer because he bought 'em instead of getting 'em from Samsung, and that's the end of the story.

As I've noted before but it's worth repeating, aside from the time it takes, it's trivially easy for me to get a meter onto a TV that came from a store. Nothing to it. So I can very easily find out if I've been getting "golden samples." In other words, I'd have figured that out by now. Maybe other TV reviewers never measure TVs other than the ones they review? That's not the case with me and I find that whole line of argument insulting.

I don't live in a bubble where the only TVs I see are provided to me by manufacturers. Between AVS members, people seeking calibrations, and dealers I've got all the access I need.


Obviously none of that is that case for a TV that's not for sale yet like the Q9.
Reviewers that get televisions from the manufacture specifically for review purposes are obviously going to get hand picked samples. Now, that doesn't mean they are looking for one that has the highest brightness, but rather one that has no obvious defects such as horrible banding. Its just a slightly higher level of QC than the norm. A person could return/exchange a television enough times and end up with a golden sample just the same. They could also end up with a lemon, or even a series of lemons. Its random. Cedric was simply stating that he does not review televisions direct from the manufacture but instead buys them in the same way any ordinary person would. What he is doing is great, and gives people real world data instead of the slightly skewed data we get from major reviewers.
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post #349 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 03:30 PM
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It continues to be a near dead-ringer for the KS9800 aside from having the ability to express more color and handle highlights better, while on a few very rare occasions showing slightly reduced contrast versus the KS9800 due to the edgelit vs. FALD thing.
You are running these side by side with identical content via HDMI splitter, I presume? The splitter is 4k HDR capable so you can compare HDR content side by side?
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post #350 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Reviewers that get televisions from the manufacture specifically for review purposes are obviously going to get hand picked samples. Now, that doesn't mean they are looking for one that has the highest brightness, but rather one that has no obvious defects such as horrible banding. Its just a slightly higher level of QC than the norm. A person could return/exchange a television enough times and end up with a golden sample just the same. They could also end up with a lemon, or even a series of lemons. Its random. Cedric was simply stating that he does not review televisions direct from the manufacture but instead buys them in the same way any ordinary person would. What he is doing is great, and gives people real world data instead of the slightly skewed data we get from major reviewers.
Yes, he's got the right idea and I love the entrepeneurhip.

But, to your point, I'll quote him for the sake of clarity...

"Keep in mind that most other reviewers get their samples cherry-picked by Samsung directly, so they will get higher numbers, but for us, we buy our own units..." - Cedric, rtings.com at 03:36


And yet the four different Samsung TVs I cross-referenced all had lower measured peak luminance on reviewed.com vs. rtings.com.

But hey, I see he's done with that TV and that's fine. As always, investigate obvious anomalies if you have the time.

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post #351 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 03:42 PM
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Yes, he's got the right idea and I love the entrepeneurhip.

But, to your point, I'll quote him for the sake of clarity...

"Keep in mind that most other reviewers get their samples cherry-picked by Samsung directly, so they will get higher numbers, but for us, we buy our own units..." - Cedric, rtings.com

And yet the four Samsung TVs I cross-referenced between the two sites all had lower measured peak luminance on reviewed.com vs. rtings.com.
I think in the past that was more true than it is now. In the past reviewers would indeed get samples (whether it be projectors, televisions, speakers, etc.) that performed noticeably better than the large majority of consumer versions. I have noticed over the past few years this trend has died down for the most part. But still, remember Cedric is new to the "game", and he has improved greatly over the short time his site has existed. Statistically, there is a great chance both of his Q7's are representative of the current majority. Now I think its great that Samsung actually flew out engineers to see whats going on because the chain from design to production is long. Things are easy to get lost in translation and now they can investigate what the issue is. At the very least I am sure Samsung would have given the Q7 the 1000 nits they claimed it to have, and I do believe it will be rectified. But, as stated by Cedric that wouldn't raise the score much anyway because overall its just not anything special or new over the outgoing model.
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Rting video Q7 review is ready to watch.

Samsung QLED TVs at CES 2017


Just a remind the Q9 is a side edge lit not bottom edge lit. Both have different backlight performance.
Wow this thread going to get even more interesting soon. Samsung Today announced that Q7 was UHD Alliance certified
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post #353 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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You are running these side by side with identical content via HDMI splitter, I presume? The splitter is 4k HDR capable so you can compare HDR content side by side?
Yes, except for when I was comparing streaming with built-in apps, in which case I sync'd manually. Yeah, HDR-compatible HDMI signal splitters are around fifty bucks or so on Amazon. Was using an AVR, got the Sewell Direct Splitdeck. 1x4 is $70.
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post #354 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 03:59 PM
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I believe Samsung will sort out the brightness issue. Afterall, if they claiming 1500 nits and the TV is not capable of producing it, then it is considered false advertising.

I'm been following this everyday and it is interesting to see how things unfold eventually!
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post #355 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 04:01 PM
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Wow this thread going to get even more interesting soon. Samsung Today announced that Q7 was UHD Alliance certified
I don't see the brightness as a major issue,I think the display still hit over 1,000 nits?

The only issue that I see is the price. The rest are things that are inherent to the tech ,nothing that will cause a huge disapoiment to LCD owners.
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post #356 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
I don't see the brightness as a major issue,I think the display still hit over 1,000 nits?
From what I read, I think it's having difficulties hitting 1000 nits.
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post #357 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 04:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yes, he's got the right idea and I love the entrepeneurhip.

But, to your point, I'll quote him for the sake of clarity...

"Keep in mind that most other reviewers get their samples cherry-picked by Samsung directly, so they will get higher numbers, but for us, we buy our own units..." - Cedric, rtings.com at 03:36 03:36

And yet the four different Samsung TVs I cross-referenced all had lower measured peak luminance on reviewed.com vs. rtings.com.

But hey, I see he's done with that TV and that's fine. As always, investigate obvious anomalies if you have the time.
I honestly think Q7 is inferior(ks8000) however I think Rtings got a bad batch. Q7 are UHD alliance certified 1000 nits min is required. I noticed 65 inch looked better and brighter. I will put the patterns on a stick and try to measure if I get some time.

My Ks800 registered over 1400 nits all the time max was 1567 . So Q7 not being as bright is disappointing.. NEW FW was pushed out so lets wait and see.. TBH righ now I would be finding a bargain KS8000 good bang 4 buck.. Q8 looked much better than Q7 to my eyes.
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post #358 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
Reviewers that get televisions from the manufacture specifically for review purposes are obviously going to get hand picked samples. Now, that doesn't mean they are looking for one that has the highest brightness, but rather one that has no obvious defects such as horrible banding. Its just a slightly higher level of QC than the norm. A person could return/exchange a television enough times and end up with a golden sample just the same. They could also end up with a lemon, or even a series of lemons. Its random. Cedric was simply stating that he does not review televisions direct from the manufacture but instead buys them in the same way any ordinary person would. What he is doing is great, and gives people real world data instead of the slightly skewed data we get from major reviewers.

Its good that they buy their own panels, but the major downside is their budget. This corners them to buy mostly 55" models and they don't review flagships with the most superior pictures. They've never reviewed: 950b, 940c, 940d, Z9D, ks9800, E6, G6, Vizio R series, panasonic dx902 (I think this tv available in canada but not sure)
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post #359 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Christian Lin View Post
From what I read, I think it's having difficulties hitting 1000 nits.

You mean the Q7 ?I didn't know that.
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post #360 of 608 Old 03-21-2017, 04:14 PM
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Yes, except for when I was comparing streaming with built-in apps, in which case I sync'd manually. Yeah, HDR-compatible HDMI signal splitters are around fifty bucks or so on Amazon. Was using an AVR, got the Sewell Direct Splitdeck. 1x4 is $70.
Thanks! I ordered a Rocketfish splitter which is said to support 4k UHD and HDR compatible pass-through, on the cheap, so we will see how that one does.

Have you checked out the opening below deck scenes in the first couple of minutes of Master and Commander? Good very low-APL test that used to make my Pioneer 500M bars disappear into a gray fog over the whole screen. There were no black bars in those scenes. You couldn't see any bars at all, just uniform gray over the whole screen. My FALD's would look darker than the Kuro, albeit with blooming anomalies that were distracting. Looking forward to seeing how the Z9D handles these challenging low-APL scenes.
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