Samsung Q9 65â?³ QLED HDR LCD TV: First Look - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 608 Old 03-15-2017, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by synccoil View Post

Fair enough on all counts and folks here with good sense should and likely all know this ,keep up the good work !
My goal is to take the TV that exists (whatever the specs and technologies within may be), which some people are going to purchase one way or another, and find the way to get the best possible picture out of it. The Q9 I have is obviously one of the first, and the firmware within is still in development. So for people to be taking (for example) the numbers HD Guru published as definitive (who knew measuring 98.5% DCI/P3 instead of 100% would be so upsetting to some) is perhaps premature.

Clearly the move to edgelit is something that has distressed videophiles and it's probably fair to say a 512-zone FALD behind that panel would have triggered more enthusiasm here on AVS Forum.

I'm not sure that niche matters so much to Samsung, versus the style-oriented and aesthetic decisions that the company made. As I posted earlier, the ability to easily mount it, have it rest flat on a wall, and still be able to tilt the screen—with that ultra-thin Invisible Connection cable and the power cord being the only two visible cables.

These things plus the plug-and-play capabilities combine with the high color volume capability and an ability to get bright over a large portion of the screen (1100-nits in a 50% window) to make it a decision many people looking for a multi-use premium living room TV would consider a plus versus black levels that—much as I hate to say it—most people do not care about nearly as much as AVS Forum members do.

So I encourage everyone here to vocalize their desire to see Samsung take the Q9 and make a Q9+ that dispenses with the wall-mount wizardry and goes for the gusto in terms of FALD. Let's see 1000 nits full screen, 1500 nits in a 50% window, and 2000 nits in a 25% window... with no time limit while we're at it, right? Can't hurt to ask.

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post #212 of 608 Old 03-15-2017, 11:39 AM
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s" probably fair to say a 512-zone FALD behind that panel would have triggered more enthusiasm here on AVS Forum".
Without seeing it and a few more reviews and how they positioned their PR video went. If they had come out with a FALD- and price it right, it could be a dragon slayer........
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post #213 of 608 Old 03-15-2017, 11:44 AM
 
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Quote:
imagic

My goal is to take the TV that exists (whatever the specs and technologies within may be), which some people are going to purchase one way or another, and find the way to get the best possible picture out of it.


So I encourage everyone here to vocalize their desire to see Samsung take the Q9 and make a Q9+ that dispenses with the wall-mount wizardry and goes for the gusto in terms of FALD. Let's see 1000 nits full screen, 1500 nits in a 50% window, and 2000 nits in a 25% window... with no time limit while we're at it, right? Can't hurt to ask.
1000 nits full screen, 1500 nits in a 50% window, and 2000 nits in a 25% window Direct LED FALD and good edge lit dimming like that .......it's all good I could get with all that .

OTOH the Sony and Samsung better edge lit + edge dimming sets are improving remarkably since my 2015 frame dimming edge lit Sony 55X850C which even today isn't bad if you have one with a decent panel like this one just not range topping in 2015 or even a tier or so below that now in 2017 .

I don't have to have the best but there is definitely room to upgrade from my X850C maybe a Sony X930E or Sony OLED or 9ZD or something else and my usual TV upgrade cycle in this room for my most watched TV 99% here will be 2017-2018 anyway .


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post #214 of 608 Old 03-15-2017, 12:17 PM
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I'm glad to hear Samsung is returning to side edge-lit as it can actually pull off far more convincing local dimming compared to bottom/top-bottom edge lit sets (particularly Cinema Black).

I have a 55" Samsung F8000 LED LCD and 51" Samsung F8500 plasma. Despite being 1080p and from 2013/2014 they are still satisfyingly striking to look at in terms of PQ and design aesthetics. The F8000 and Sony's edge-lit W900A of the same year are considered to be the pinnacle of 1080p LED LCDs beating out any 1080p FALD in overall PQ, especially in color and picture processing. So I'm perfectly happy with my sets waiting to see how TV technology progresses these next couple years.

From a pure side edge-lit technology basis the Q9 is very exciting compared to previous iterations. 3000:1 -> 4000:1 contrast ratio, 375 nits max -> 1700 nits max, rec.709 -> DCI P3 coverage and rec.2020 tracking, along with all the other improvements to motion handling, picture processing, picture settings precision, Smart TV platform, etc. Keep the details coming, Mark!

Would I like Samsung to magically defy physics and combine the brightness of LED LCD, the perfect blacks/infinite contrast of OLED, and the wide viewing angles of PDP? Why, yes! But we're on planet earth and they're doing the best that they can with what they have.

Contrary to what many harsh critics may believe, Samsung isn't dumb. They know how to sell TVs and they know what constitutes high fidelity image reproduction. The non-OLED, non-self-emissive-QLED Samsung of 2017 practically has a hand tied behind its back due to the technology limitations they are currently under. In spite of this they are still producing some of the best picture quality just shy of OLED (and in some areas equal or better). That is all that needs to be done by Samsung right now and they are doing a tremendous job.

Unfortunately, videophiles make up a very small part of Samsung's consumer base so there is very little incentive for them to constantly cater to our astronomical demands. Throwing in expensive and bulky FALD technology into their flagship makes very little sense from a business and marketing perspective. Most consumers don't care about the relatively marginal improvements FALD gives over a high quality edge-lit set (the success of the sweet spot KS8000 proves this).

The TV market is extremely diverse right now so there is bound to be a set that ticks all of the right boxes for you. That being said, if the Q9 does not live up to your expectations then I would kindly ask you to leave the people who are interested in peace please!

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post #215 of 608 Old 03-15-2017, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I found a way to quantify the off-axis performance of the Q9 that is easy to digest...

First: It's true, tonality is maintained off-axis. Color shifting is not a thing here.

Second: There is a drop in saturation but not much until you are way off axis

Which brings is to...

Third: ANSI contrast drops to IPS panel levels (1000:1) at just past 25 degrees off-axis. That means anyone within a 50-degree viewing cone is going to see "better than IPS" contrast when watching the Q9.

But it would also be silly to pretend this TV does not have a sweet spot. Like the KS9800, it rewards viewers willing to sit somewhat close to perpendicular to the screen (anywhere on a couch is fine). This tighter cone—let's call it 30 degrees—is the range wherein black levels are nice and dark plus colors are super rich.

But even viewing from 25-30 degrees off-axis produces an IPS-like image, which is more than good enough for guests and kids and such. No color shift, and only some loss of saturation and contrast vs. head-on.
Thanks , I read the QLED's have hit the stores here as well (at least on display) so I'll have a look soon enough (could have attended some Samsung events but had other/better things to do ). On the Q9 note again: are you able to take closeups of the pixel structure?

These were posted by HDTV Test (back in January I think and most likely of a Q9)


and look quite different in arrangement than the ones on the Q7 as posted by Rtings:
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post #216 of 608 Old 03-15-2017, 11:08 PM
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Pricing just got released for Australian Consumers:

QLED Q7 55-inch TV - $4,499 QLED Q7 65-inch TV - $6,499 QLED Q7 75-inch TV - $10,999
QLED Q8 55-inch TV - $5,499 QLED Q8 65-inch TV - $7,499 QLED Q8 75-inch TV - $12,499
QLED Q9 65-inch TV - $9.499 QLED Q9 75-inch TV - $14,999 QLED Q9 88-inch TV - $39,999
So a Q7 65" is $500 more than a 65" Z9D here , dear god Samsung better bundle them with refrigerators and candies.
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post #217 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 12:59 AM
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So a Q7 65" is $500 more than a 65" Z9D here , dear god Samsung better bundle them with refrigerators and candies.
This is Australian dollar=0.77 US Dollar
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post #218 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 01:11 AM
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This is Australian dollar=0.77 US Dollar
I know, the Z9D was in fact $5999 AUD here at least for quite sometime. Actually you know what it's even cheaper now, $4995 AUD
http://www.harveynorman.com.au/tv-bl...-smart-tv.html
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post #219 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The attacks on my credibility, which had been ongoing for years, are exasperating. I'm not perfect, nobody is perfect, no review is perfect, no TV is perfect.
Keep on keeping on and thanks for the work. In your next go round with Samsung could you please ask them if they're going to bring HDR10+ to the 2016 models, at least for the streaming apps if not via the HDMI inputs?

Also, from HDGuru's first take:
"After our initial overview, we preferred the full-array backlighting in last year’s KS9800 to the Q9’s LED edge light, even with the brightness boost." (this was a pre-production model so this could change)

Stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking, nerf herder.
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post #220 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I just coaxed 2010 nits in a 10% window out of the Q9 in dynamic mode. Just sayin'... yeah it's a marketing spec (2000 nits!) but I figured out how to get there and measure it.

Movie Mode Warm2 peak in a 10% window is still in the 1600-1700 nit range, which of course is more than you need for today's HDR content. The ability to exceed 1000 nits in a 50% window in movie mode with 6500K color dialed-in is the capability that's really noteworthy.

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post #221 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I just coaxed 2010 nits in a 10% window out of the Q9 in dynamic mode. Just sayin'... yeah it's a marketing spec (2000 nits!) but I figured out how to get there and measure it.

Movie Mode Warm2 peak in a 10% window is still in the 1600-1700 nit range, which of course is more than you need for today's HDR content. The ability to exceed 1000 nits in a 50% window in movie mode with 6500K color dialed-in is the capability that's really noteworthy.
For bragging rights and winning the 'brightness wars' I get what your saying, but for enjoying actual HDR content, I do not.

Since HDR is mastered to an APL of 120 nits, you will never, ever, have half of your screen putting out 1000 nits. Even if the other half of your screen is 0% black, that would be an APL of 500 Nits, more than 3X what they are mastering to.

For HDR, the dynamic and sustained brightness at 2% and even 1% are far more important than 50%.

Do you see any increase in Movie Mode Warm2 brightness when the window is decreased to 2% and 1%?
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post #222 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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For bragging rights and winning the 'brightness wars' I get what your saying, but for enjoying actual HDR content, I do not.

Since HDR is mastered to an APL of 120 nits, you will never, ever, have half of your screen putting out 1000 nits. Even if the other half of your screen is 0% black, that would be an APL of 500 Nits, more than 3X what they are mastering to.

For HDR, the dynamic and sustained brightness at 2% and even 1% are far more important than 50%.

Do you see any increase in Movie Mode Warm2 brightness when the window is decreased to 2% and 1%?
When I get home, and heading into the weekend, I will go through a bunch of measurements.
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post #223 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
For bragging rights and winning the 'brightness wars' I get what your saying, but for enjoying actual HDR content, I do not.

Since HDR is mastered to an APL of 120 nits, you will never, ever, have half of your screen putting out 1000 nits. Even if the other half of your screen is 0% black, that would be an APL of 500 Nits, more than 3X what they are mastering to.

For HDR, the dynamic and sustained brightness at 2% and even 1% are far more important than 50%.

Do you see any increase in Movie Mode Warm2 brightness when the window is decreased to 2% and 1%?
120 nit sounds a little light, i believe ive read that hdr has max apl of 400 nit
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post #224 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 12:49 PM
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120 nit sounds a little light, i believe ive read that hdr has max apl of 400 nit
I was referrng to average APL, but even if you are correct that max APL is 400 Nits, it underscores my point that you will never, ever, have actial contend require 50% white output of 1000 Nits or more...

The peak brightness measurements of 1% and 2% windows are far more representative of the specular highlights HDR is designed to deliver.
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post #225 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I was referrng to average APL, but even if you are correct that max APL is 400 Nits, it underscores my point that you will never, ever, have actial contend require 50% white output of 1000 Nits or more...

The peak brightness measurements of 1% and 2% windows are far more representative of the specular highlights HDR is designed to deliver.
HDR is not just about specular highlights. That capability to do the 50% window is tied to color volume performance as well.

Anyhow no big deal just saying the Q9 is on cruise control when comes to meeting the UHD Premium spec. for brightness.

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post #226 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 01:19 PM
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HDR is not just about specular highlights. That capability to do the 50% window is tied to color volume performance as well.

Anyhow no big deal just saying the Q9 is on cruise control when comes to meeting the UHD Premium spec. for brightness.
If you want to characterize peak blue, red, and green ouput, that would be great.

50% white peak is pretty meaningless, was my point (though as you suggest, it may be a promising indication of the ability to exceed 120 Nits of fully-saturated blue .
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post #227 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 02:28 PM
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50% white peak is pretty meaningless, was my point (though as you suggest, it may be a promising indication of the ability to exceed 120 Nits of fully-saturated blue .
Yes, that fully-saturated blue with a large yellow circle in the middle

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post #228 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I was referrng to average APL, but even if you are correct that max APL is 400 Nits, it underscores my point that you will never, ever, have actial contend require 50% white output of 1000 Nits or more...

The peak brightness measurements of 1% and 2% windows are far more representative of the specular highlights HDR is designed to deliver.
well i don't see how meaningful an AVERAGE average picture level could be... Nevertheless, you're correct in that 50% output of 1,000 nit seems meaningless.
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post #229 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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well i don't see how meaningful an AVERAGE average picture level could be... Nevertheless, you're correct in that 50% output of 1,000 nit seems meaningless.
Unless, confronted with a TV that offers this capability, someone who is grading a film finds it useful and finds an artistically valid application for that capability. Who knows. But sure, it's meaningless the same way a 200 mph sports car is meaningless... because who drives 200 mph, right?
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post #230 of 608 Old 03-16-2017, 04:15 PM
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Unless, confronted with a TV that offers this capability, someone who is grading a film finds it useful and finds an artistically valid application for that capability. Who knows. But sure, it's meaningless the same way a 200 mph sports car is meaningless... because who drives 200 mph, right?
Yeah but based on the standards I think the line has been drawn below 1,000 nits at 50% APL so we won't see anyone use it.
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post #231 of 608 Old 03-17-2017, 01:02 PM
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Unless, confronted with a TV that offers this capability, someone who is grading a film finds it useful and finds an artistically valid application for that capability. Who knows. But sure, it's meaningless the same way a 200 mph sports car is meaningless... because who drives 200 mph, right?


Downside of that anectdote, that McLaren P1 owner can always go to a track to enjoy that 200 MPH if he wants to. Samsung owner who wants to enjoy 50% APL fields at 1000 nits sustained will watch what? Calibration slides?


Just saying, right now, the nits canon Q9 owner doesn't have a way to really take advantage of all that power.
The 200 mph car owner does.


Better fully saturated colors is what I'd stick to as the upside that people could see today. Not idea that maybe someday there will be content to take advantage of sustained large areas.
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post #232 of 608 Old 03-17-2017, 03:35 PM
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Downside of that anectdote, that McLaren P1 owner can always go to a track to enjoy that 200 MPH if he wants to. Samsung owner who wants to enjoy 50% APL fields at 1000 nits sustained will watch what? Calibration slides?


Just saying, right now, the nits canon Q9 owner doesn't have a way to really take advantage of all that power.
The 200 mph car owner does.


Better fully saturated colors is what I'd stick to as the upside that people could see today. Not idea that maybe someday there will be content to take advantage of sustained large areas.
Reading this literally made me laugh out loud
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post #233 of 608 Old 03-18-2017, 03:33 AM
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Reading this literally made me laugh out loud
me too. I admit I did enjoy watching this, but only for the geek factor which we all (on this thread, anyway!) have:


Does it look good on the Q9 towards the end, @imagic ?

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post #234 of 608 Old 03-18-2017, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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As pertains to prior comment addressing the utility of being able to render a 50% APL scene and indeed the question of whether they even exist....

Here's a nifty white paper from SpectraCAL: http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/...20Patterns.pdf

And here's a screen shot of a relevant section of that white paper...

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post #235 of 608 Old 03-18-2017, 04:13 PM
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As pertains to prior comment addressing the utility of being able to render a 50% APL scene and indeed the question of whether they even exist....

Here's a nifty white paper from SpectraCAL: http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/...20Patterns.pdf

And here's a screen shot of a relevant section of that white paper...

But is that 50% APL supposed to be 1000 nits? If the 50% APL is 200 nits.... That is the question, and I think the important distinction.

Anyways, don't really want to start some big tangent.

The Q series will be in the running alongside the Sony X9xx series if my parents need a new tv this year.

Their main setup is absolutely atrocious for ambient light so could put the brightness to good use
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post #236 of 608 Old 03-18-2017, 09:02 PM
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Clearly the move to edgelit is something that has distressed videophiles and it's probably fair to say a 512-zone FALD behind that panel would have triggered more enthusiasm here on AVS Forum.

I'm not sure that niche matters so much to Samsung, versus the style-oriented and aesthetic decisions that the company made. As I posted earlier, the ability to easily mount it, have it rest flat on a wall, and still be able to tilt the screen—with that ultra-thin Invisible Connection cable and the power cord being the only two visible cables.

These things plus the plug-and-play capabilities combine with the high color volume capability and an ability to get bright over a large portion of the screen (1100-nits in a 50% window) to make it a decision many people looking for a multi-use premium living room TV would consider a plus versus black levels that—much as I hate to say it—most people do not care about nearly as much as AVS Forum members do.
Sure, Samsung is targeting the mass market for their TVs, and as a business decision, it's a good one. That being said, since the AVS community in general does care about the nitty-gritty details of performance more than the average no-research Best Buy shopper, reviews here should hold them to a higher standard.

If their style and aesthetic decisions result in compromised performance, they should be raked over the coals for it. Making things thinner for looks at the expense of capability is a trend that deserves loud and constant ridicule.
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post #237 of 608 Old 03-19-2017, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Sure, Samsung is targeting the mass market for their TVs, and as a business decision, it's a good one. That being said, since the AVS community in general does care about the nitty-gritty details of performance more than the average no-research Best Buy shopper, reviews here should hold them to a higher standard.

If their style and aesthetic decisions result in compromised performance, they should be raked over the coals for it. Making things thinner for looks at the expense of capability is a trend that deserves loud and constant ridicule.
I'm not here to rake companies over the coals for the sake of snarky, presumptuous angry mobs of self-declared experts. I'll call out a bad product, sure. Don't hold your breath for me to do that with the Q9, it is an excellent TV.

Frankly, often what I see posted here and on other AV forums is exaggeration and ego run amok, not companies trying to pull some fast one. Yeah there are products that are duds and yeah there are issues that require firmware fixes, that's always gonna be the case. And I mean in general, for audio and video, and year after year. Nothing to do with this thread in particular.

I'm loathe to take a new TV, with what is effectively beta version firmware, and right off the bat declare it is worse than the fully-matured and understood predecessor. Even with the switch from FALD to edgelit.

I'll have performance details, namely calibration reports... after all I have the tools it takes to make those observations. But, I've also seen how so-called objectivists can take one or two specs and run with them and basically ruin the discussion.

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Last edited by imagic; 03-19-2017 at 07:05 AM.
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post #238 of 608 Old 03-19-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
Sure, Samsung is targeting the mass market for their TVs, and as a business decision, it's a good one. That being said, since the AVS community in general does care about the nitty-gritty details of performance more than the average no-research Best Buy shopper, reviews here should hold them to a higher standard.

If their style and aesthetic decisions result in compromised performance, they should be raked over the coals for it. Making things thinner for looks at the expense of capability is a trend that deserves loud and constant ridicule.
These folks never cease to amaze me. But, just like we should engage with people from the opposite end of the political spectrum, it's always a refreshing wake up call to chat with someone who is - at best - an interested consumer but well short of an AVS obsessive. Just last night, during a dinner party we hosted, I stepped into our family room to fire up the 88" KS98 for a friend. He'd just purchased a 4K TV from Best Buy and the conversation he related to me that he'd had with a BB salesman made me want to vomit Anyway, after I picked his jaw up off the floor it was good to get out of the bubble and gently explain/correct HDR, WCG, UHD/4K, etc. for him.

Stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking, nerf herder.
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post #239 of 608 Old 03-19-2017, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by anthonymoody View Post
These folks never cease to amaze me. But, just like we should engage with people from the opposite end of the political spectrum, it's always a refreshing wake up call to chat with someone who is - at best - an interested consumer but well short of an AVS obsessive. Just last night, during a dinner party we hosted, I stepped into our family room to fire up the 88" KS98 for a friend. He'd just purchased a 4K TV from Best Buy and the conversation he related to me that he'd had with a BB salesman made me want to vomit Anyway, after I picked his jaw up off the floor it was good to get out of the bubble and gently explain/correct HDR, WCG, UHD/4K, etc. for him.
It certainly happened, that I've been in Best Buy in the TV section, and overheard and interaction between customers and a uninformed salesperson. Yes, I interrupt the conversation and briefly introduce myself as a writer and reviewer for AVS Forum, and pass on the relevant information before disappearing in a cloud of purple smoke and lightning.

Mark Henninger (aka Imagic)
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post #240 of 608 Old 03-19-2017, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'm not here to rake companies over the coals for the sake of snarky, presumptuous angry mobs of self-declared experts. I'll call out a bad product, sure. Don't hold your breath for me to do that with the Q9, it is an excellent TV.

Frankly, often what I see posted here and on other AV forums is exaggeration and ego run amok, not companies trying to pull some fast one. Yeah there are products that are duds and yeah there are issues that require firmware fixes, that's always gonna be the case. And I mean in general, for audio and video, and year after year. Nothing to do with this thread in particular.

I'm loathe to take a new TV, with what is effectively beta version firmware, and right off the bat declare it is worse than the fully-matured and understood predecessor. Even with the switch from FALD to edgelit.

I'll have performance details, namely calibration reports... after all I have the tools it takes to make those observations. But, I've also seen how so-called objectivists can take one or two specs and run with them and basically ruin the discussion.
From the early reports I'm not expecting it to be a bad product, and it sounds like it does take a couple steps forward from the KS9800 in a few areas.

At the same time, if it takes a step or two backwards in other areas due to the change from FALD to Edge-lit, especially since that change smacks of being cost-cutting and/or style-driven in motivation, that's certainly worth highlighting. If sites like this don't try to beat back the tide of companies trying to make things wafer-thin for aesthetics as the expense of performance then who's going to?

IMO it's similar to your criticism of Sonos for operating under the impression that full multi-speaker surround sound systems are aesthetically undesirable and can be replaced by soundbars. Taking them to task a bit on that was not only valid, but important to do. Samsung operating under the impression that thicker TVs incorporating proper backlight systems are aesthetically undesirable is also worth taking Samsung to task for.
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