Samsung Q9 65″ QLED HDR LCD TV: First Look - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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First Look at the Samsung Q9 65″ QLED HDR LED-Lit LCD TV

I got my hands on a 65" Q9 and here's a first look. More details and likely a full review will follow, but I wanted to get a thread going ASAP.

I'm fairly confident this is the first thread about a Q9 that's out in the wild (i.e. in my studio) instead of at a show or in a lab. I was/am able to compare it side-by-side with a KS9800, play some UHD HDR Blu-rays and Netflix, and give it a quick 2-point grayscale tweak (20-point calibration coming soon). Click the link to read the post: http://www.avsforum.com/samsung-q9-6...tv-first-look/

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post #2 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 06:50 AM
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The big test is going to be how it controls light bleed in dark scenes. Especially if you have a KS9800 to compare side by side, what happens when you view content with bright objects towards the center of the screen in essentially black or very dark fields?

Can you see any light path from the edge-lights towards that object or overalls elevated black levels compared to the KS9800? Is there light bleed into letterbox bars or the telltale 'hot' corners/edges that other edge-lit sets suffer from?

Basically I'd like to see a torture test of material that's going to be the most unforgiving of an edge-lit set to see if Samsung's claims that this is actually the equal of a FALD TV are true.
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Thanks Mark
looking forward for the in-depth full review
looks very promising
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post #4 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
The big test is going to be how it controls light bleed in dark scenes. Especially if you have a KS9800 to compare side by side, what happens when you view content with bright objects towards the center of the screen in essentially black or very dark fields?

Can you see any light path from the edge-lights towards that object or overalls elevated black levels compared to the KS9800? Is there light bleed into letterbox bars or the telltale 'hot' corners/edges that other edge-lit sets suffer from?

Basically I'd like to see a torture test of material that's going to be the most unforgiving of an edge-lit set to see if Samsung's claims that this is actually the equal of a FALD TV are true.
I'll certainly run those sort of tests. I can say letterbox bars remained black with all the content I viewed and there was no visible bleed or "hot" corners or edges and frankly screen uniformity is great for an LCD. But I can't speak to the behavior of the TV with flashlight/halo torture tests, not yet anyhow.

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post #5 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'll certainly run those sort of tests. I can say letterbox bars remained black with all the content I viewed and there was no visible bleed. But I can't speak to the behavior of the TV with flashlight/halo torture tests, not yet anyhow.
I second this request. Also interested in you elaborating more on the comment about basement horror/sci fi viewing. I assume that's a reference to black level. Does the Q9 fall a little short of the KS9800 in this regard? Or are you comparing it to OLEDs with this sentiment?

Very interesting take though, and impressive work by Samsung. No wonder they priced these like FALDs.

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post #6 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by anthonymoody View Post
I second this request. Also interested in you elaborating more on the comment about basement horror/sci fi viewing. I assume that's a reference to black level. Does the Q9 fall a little short of the KS9800 in this regard? Or are you comparing it to OLEDs with this sentiment?

Very interesting take though, and impressive work by Samsung. No wonder they priced these like FALDs.
I was talking about OLEDs for sure. I'm not even getting into the black levels in that context, everyone knows there's no contest.

But versus the KS9800, in terms of black levels an image quality, you have an interesting situation. In my first round of nighttime viewing, the two TVs were generally running neck and neck but I have not had nearly enough time or watched enough content to cement an opinion on that. Plus, gotta calibrate that Q9 first.
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post #7 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I was talking about OLEDs for sure. I'm not even getting into the black levels in that context, everyone knows there's no contest.

But versus the KS9800, in terms of black levels an image quality, you have an interesting situation. In my first round of nighttime viewing, the two TVs were generally running neck and neck but I have not had nearly enough time or watched enough content to cement an opinion on that. Plus, gotta calibrate that Q9 first.
Gotcha thanks. Well, sounds like overall the Q9 is basically the equal of the KS9800 on SDR, and superior to it on HDR. Given what I paid for my 88" KS98 and what they're asking for the 88" Q9 I'm not even a little disappointed in my purchase

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Looking forward to the review. Since you have some high quality cameras, pictures of the examples would be great.

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post #9 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 07:45 AM
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One other question that interests me is the wide viewing angle claim. Apparently the Q7s out in the wild have fallen (very) short in this regard despite Samsung making quite a big deal about it. It doesn't impact me either way as my room doesn't lend itself to off axis viewing. But I'm curious to see how the Q9 does in this regard compared to both the KS9800 and KS8000.
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post #10 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Looking forward to the review. Since you have some high quality cameras, pictures of the examples would be great.
I will do my very best to provide photographic examples that are meaningful. It's kind of challenging with TVs, whereas when photographing front projection I find I never have issues, It seems to be an interaction between the way camera sensors work and the pixel structure of TVs that causes color shifts, moire, and exaggerates certain tendencies. This is all now compounded by the fact that these TVs display such a wide color gamut and high dynamic range that it's impossible to capture it accurately with the camera, or show it accurately on the standard dynamic range display.

So yeah, with those caveats, I'll do what I can to get some good photographic examples posted.

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post #11 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by anthonymoody View Post
One other question that interests me is the wide viewing angle claim. Apparently the Q7s out in the wild have fallen (very) short in this regard despite Samsung making quite a big deal about it. It doesn't impact me either way as my room doesn't lend itself to off axis viewing. But I'm curious to see how the Q9 does in this regard compared to both the KS9800 and KS8000.
I'm going to have to go ahead and say that, based on first impressions, the viewing angle doesn't seem all that different between the Q9 and the KS9800. But, I haven't done anything that would resemble a proper comparison in that regard.
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post #12 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 07:51 AM
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I'm going to have to go ahead and say that, based on first impressions, the viewing angle doesn't seem all that different between the Q9 and the KS9800. But, I haven't done anything that would resemble a proper comparison in that regard.
Interesting. Samsung marketing at work it would seem.
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post #13 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting. Samsung marketing at work it would seem.
Incremental improvement? Sure. There's no color shift, the only viewing angle issue is a loss of contrast when significantly off-axis. But, is it a VA panel with IPS viewing angles? No. People should not expect that. But, you probably can reasonably argue that you have to be way off-axis for contrast to drop to IPS panel levels—by that measure its viewing angle is quite wide. But the viewing cone in which picture quality is optimal is not all that wide, it's still a VA panel at the end of the day.

Does it look good if you are sitting anywhere on a couch that's 8-12 feet away (or further) and facing it? Looks great, very deep blacks, when calibrated for BT.709 (SDR) the native contrast is enough to make the image looks very seamless/stable and letterbox bars are pitch black. I have not done much viewing with HDR content yet, nor have I taken any measurements in HDR mode, so I can't speak to that experience yet.
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post #14 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Incremental improvement? Sure. There's no color shift, the only viewing angle issue is a loss of contrast when significantly off-axis. But, is it a VA panel with IPS viewing angles? No. People should not expect that. Does it look good if you are sitting anywhere on a couch that's 8-12 feet away (or further) and facing it? Looks great, very deep blacks, when calibrated for BT.709 (SDR) the native contrast is enough to make the image looks very seamless/stable and letterbox bars are pitch black. I have not done much viewing with HDR content yet, nor have I taken any measurements in HDR mode, so I can't speak to that experience yet.
Have you noticed any of the shimmering/sparking from the new pixel structure that some people were noticing at CES?
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post #15 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Have you noticed any of the shimmering/sparking from the new pixel structure that some people were noticing at CES?
None at all. Zero. I think those CES TVs were running in vivid mode (every time I asked that was the answer) and who knows what was done to the sharpness control. UHD/4K imagery looks clean, clear, sharp, and pristine. Granted I don't have that exact demo loop but I'm not seeing any situation where the pixel structure could ever be evident.
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post #16 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 08:21 AM
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Mark, please, PLEASE, do not justify the Q9's edge-lit short comings by saying it does better at noise reduction and edge enhancement. Remember, the 65" Q9 will be priced at or MORE than the 65" Z9D, fully array set. Lets not forget the 65" ks9800 is priced LESS than even the 65" Q7. The Q9 and KS9800 shouldn't even be in the same sentence at this point. If Samsung wants the Q9 to compete with the ks9800 it should price it, and the rest of the lineup, accordingly. How about you put a Z9D next to that Q9?
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Mark, please, PLEASE, do not justify the Q9's edge-lit short comings by saying it does better at noise reduction and edge enhancement. Remember, the 65" Q9 will be priced at or MORE than the 65" Z9D, fully array set. Lets not forget the 65" ks9800 is priced LESS than even the 65" Q7. The Q9 and KS9800 shouldn't even be in the same sentence at this point. If Samsung wants the Q9 to compete with the ks9800 it should price it, and the rest of the lineup, accordingly. How about you put a Z9D next to that Q9?
Hey, Not only are those two TVs in the same sentence, there in the same room. Side-by-side. Any comparisons I make are real world, not speculative. I need some more time, but so far their performance has been so close that aside from the curved screen it would be tough to tell them apart a lot of the time.

But hey, I'm sure there will be moments when FALD benefits the KS9800 when rendering certain dark scenes with bright objects—that's inevitable. Just like there are going to be moments when the Q9's 100% DCI/P3 color volume in the highlights and 2000-nit peak luminance help it look better. Indeed, my first impression is that this latter capacity is of greater importance when quantifying differences between the two TVs. And that has nothing to do with edge enhancement or noise reduction.

Better processing is a plus, like it or not. Sure, I'd like to see lower prices, wouldn't we all?

Anyone who has a Z9D, that wants to bring it over, is welcome to do so.

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The 65Q9 may be equal to the KS9800 in some areas and even surpass it in others, but at its current price point is an insane purchase. Especially, when the improved 65 LG B7 OLEDs can be had around $3.5K. No HDMI 2.1, no DolbyVision and no QDCF makes this a one year flagship model. As for this review, could you determine the true percentage of REC 2020, peak nits in a 2% and 10% window, and of course black levels.
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The 65Q9 may be equal to the KS9800 in some areas and even surpass it in others, but at it current price point is an insane purchase. Especially, when the improved 65 LG B7 OLEDs can be had around $3.5K. No HDMI 2.1, no DolbyVision and no QDCF makes this a one year flagship model. As for this review, could you determine the true percentage of REC 2020, peak nits in a 2% and 10% window, and of course black levels.
Yes, the price is steep. Yes, these measurements are all doable.
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post #20 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 09:38 AM
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The 65Q9 may be equal to the KS9800 in some areas and even surpass it in others, but at its current price point is an insane purchase. Especially, when the improved 65 LG B7 OLEDs can be had around $3.5K. No HDMI 2.1, no DolbyVision and no QDCF makes this a one year flagship model. As for this review, could you determine the true percentage of REC 2020, peak nits in a 2% and 10% window, and of course black levels.
Yeah. The price is tough to swallow at 65". The conventional rule of thumb that at 65" and below OLED is the way to go for flagship performance certainly still seems to hold from a value standpoint.

What's somewhat interesting to me is what's happening at larger sizes, where LCD was heretofore the obvious choice owed to price. Now though, the pricing at 75" for the Q9 is $10k, almost sorta kinda in the same ballpark as the 77" OLEDs at $15k. Assuming the OLEDs will be discounted and the Samsung will not (at least not for a many many months if the 2016s were any guide) then I do believe these will be cross shopped, along with the 75" Z9D or its replacement.

We may need to re-write the rule, and say that up to 75/77", OLED is the way to go for flagship performance.

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post #21 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 09:50 AM
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Interesting. Samsung marketing at work it would seem.
The improvements in viewing angle were very clear at CES. It wasn't marketing. There was dramatically less color shift over angle. The same goes for LG's nano cell tech. You don't see color shift over angle reported in the typical TV reviews, certainly not with measurements, so the improvements may not get much notice in reviews.
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The improvements in viewing angle were very clear at CES. It wasn't marketing. There was dramatically less color shift over angle. The same goes for LG's nano cell tech. You don't see color shift over angle reported in the typical TV reviews, certainly not with measurements, so the improvements may not get much notice in reviews.
You see Mark's comment about this? He said incremental improvement overall in viewing angle, limited to color but not to blacks which still fell off as usual.

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You see Mark's comment about this? He said incremental improvement overall in viewing angle, limited to color but not to blacks which still fell off as usual.
I said the same thing as him. The improvements are in color. They're most apparent in less than fully saturated colors. I don't think Samsung made any promises about improved blacks over angle.
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I said the same thing as him. The improvements are in color. They're most apparent in less than fully saturated colors. I don't think Samsung made any promises about improved blacks over angle.
But when you actively tout improved viewing angle, all aspects of PQ ought be taken into account IMHO. Are you more likely to be okay with a far off axis seating position with these TVs? If blacks wash out same as ever, I sure wouldn't be.

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I said the same thing as him. The improvements are in color. They're most apparent in less than fully saturated colors. I don't think Samsung made any promises about improved blacks over angle.
You do realize Samsung was taking shots at OLED during the entirety of their appearance at CES right? While being the usual vague Samsung, they were inferring that their "new" Qled's were stiff competition for OLED. Im not sure OLED loses perceived contrast in any major way when viewed off-axis...
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The improvements in viewing angle were very clear at CES. It wasn't marketing. There was dramatically less color shift over angle. The same goes for LG's nano cell tech. You don't see color shift over angle reported in the typical TV reviews, certainly not with measurements, so the improvements may not get much notice in reviews.
Rtings report colour shift in their viewing angle grade and for the Q7 it was better than most VA panels but not the best. On the other hand it did maintain black level better (but hardly a big improvement). If you're watching tv/non HDR stuff I doubt even the Q9 will look improved after reading the initial viewing angle comment above ...

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So buy UFOS logic, a Q9 vs E6 would not be comparable because the E6 costs less? Is this serious?
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post #28 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
The big test is going to be how it controls light bleed in dark scenes. Especially if you have a KS9800 to compare side by side, what happens when you view content with bright objects towards the center of the screen in essentially black or very dark fields?

Can you see any light path from the edge-lights towards that object or overalls elevated black levels compared to the KS9800? Is there light bleed into letterbox bars or the telltale 'hot' corners/edges that other edge-lit sets suffer from?

Basically I'd like to see a torture test of material that's going to be the most unforgiving of an edge-lit set to see if Samsung's claims that this is actually the equal of a FALD TV are true.
This. I think that is what everyone is interested in.

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I'll certainly run those sort of tests. I can say letterbox bars remained black with all the content I viewed and there was no visible bleed or "hot" corners or edges and frankly screen uniformity is great for an LCD. But I can't speak to the behavior of the TV with flashlight/halo torture tests, not yet anyhow.
Samsung has always been good about keeping letterbox dark from my experience. I think "cinema black" is the setting that helps with that. It's the full screen night scenes without letterbox. Also subtitles on an all black screen and how much of a halo effect there is. Really excited to see how this set performs. I hope it is not a case where you have to have a setting on that causes the whole picture to dim or brighten to maintain deep black without blooming/flashlighting.
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post #29 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 11:30 AM
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So buy UFOS logic, a Q9 vs E6 would not be comparable because the E6 costs less? Is this serious?
Your analyses of his comment, and logic, are correct. As for his seriousness.........yeah.

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post #30 of 603 Old 03-11-2017, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
Mark, please, PLEASE, do not justify the Q9's edge-lit short comings by saying it does better at noise reduction and edge enhancement. Remember, the 65" Q9 will be priced at or MORE than the 65" Z9D, fully array set. Lets not forget the 65" ks9800 is priced LESS than even the 65" Q7. The Q9 and KS9800 shouldn't even be in the same sentence at this point. If Samsung wants the Q9 to compete with the ks9800 it should price it, and the rest of the lineup, accordingly. How about you put a Z9D next to that Q9?
You realize that the MSRP of the Z9D was $7,000 on release, right? So, using your pricing logic, they are not comparable. Also, the KS9800 was $4,500, so how much more is the Q9?
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