Samsung QN65Q9F 65" QLED-LCD TV Review, Part 1 - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 309 Old 04-01-2017, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
I got 10 billion dollars that says the Q9 as of right now will NOT come in last. Book it.
The last I checked the flagship LG LCD will be in the shootout, if not you better have that $10 Billion just in case
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post #92 of 309 Old 04-01-2017, 04:07 PM
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The last I checked the flagship LG LCD will be in the shootout, if not you better have that $10 Billion dollars just in case
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
I'm pretty sure they have an edge-lit LG LCD slated to compete, so I'll agree with you.

Aside from the Ali vs Frazier of the Z9D vs Q9 it's going to be interesting to see if this is the year LCD upsets OLED. Have we finally reached a point where the greater color volumes and highlight potentials of top-end LCDs can overcome the perfect blacks of OLED? It may come to how SDR vs HDR is weighted.
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to realize the LG IPS is currently in the shootout

That's why is said "as of right now". Theres always a chance it gets removed.
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post #93 of 309 Old 04-01-2017, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
I'm pretty sure they have an edge-lit LG LCD slated to compete, so I'll agree with you.

Aside from the Ali vs Frazier of the Z9D vs Q9 it's going to be interesting to see if this is the year LCD upsets OLED. Have we finally reached a point where the greater color volumes and highlight potentials of top-end LCDs can overcome the perfect blacks of OLED? It may come to how SDR vs HDR is weighted.
I predict it'll come down to the Sony A1E and LG W7 finishing within a point of each other and than the Sony Z9D so I see the Q9 finishing finishing 4th. I don't think Kevin Miller and his gang are going to give a pass to a display with notable blooming with HDR specular highlights.

And before UFO goes into the deep end (but in a tongue and cheek way) in his last post he does have a point that the 2017 OLED displays are much better with bright HDR content and remains great with specular highlights in low APL.
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post #94 of 309 Old 04-01-2017, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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For me, the question I would ask of you Imagic, is if you would purchase this tv over an OLED or the Z9D and replace your Samsung plasma with it? DNice saying he would be willing to replace his Kuro plasmas with the new LG C7 OLED carried a lot of weight with me. Just curious if you would give the Q9 a similar recommendation?
OK let's sort through this somewhat complex question/answer.

First things first... I junked the F8500 and don't wish to ever see a plasma again in my life. 1080P with a visible pixel grid? No thanks. Image retention? No thanks. ABL? Hope I never see that acronym again. Limited brightness and no HDR? I'll pass. And the flickering! Hey, I know some folks are not sensitive but blech. Yeah I put up with it because it could make a Blu-ray look great. The F8500 was super accurate and had great uniformity and motion rendering but... it's gone.

OK the Q9 issue is no different than the F8500 issue was. No, I would not buy it now, at launch MSRP. But, that's true for any premium TV. Right now, the Z9D is the TV I'd buy with my money. But as some have pointed out, it debuted somewhat higher than its current price.

Remember LG's first 55" OLED? $15,000 when it debuted, literally $2000 at Micro-Center a year later. I don't think we'll ever see prices come down quite that vertiginously again anytime soon, but if the Q9F becomes available for less, as is always the case with Samsung, then the equation might be different. Ireally do have to weigh the weakness vs. OLED in displaying backs vs. what a beast the Q9F is when it comes to rendering vibrant color and vivid highlights. And not just specular stuff, but large areas of bright and vibrant color.

So far the Q9F's presentation has been excellent. What I can say is I have no desire to look at the KS9800 again—seriously. But... if you factor price then hey, the KS9800 is also a great choice. Really does depend on your wallett and also your usage. I plan video games and use TVs as giant PC monitors, so for me that makes OLED less desirable. The plasma was a truly terrible PC monitor, lol. But I did use it for color grading because again, it was crazy accurate. But, so is the Q9F—I would not hesitate to master video with it.

But unless/until I can get a Z9D to compare to directly, I can't make that specific value judgment vs. Q9D. And I do not expect this MSRP on the Q9F to last long. As for OLED, while I LOVE the deep blacks, here's the reality: I'm gonna stick with front projection to get my cinematic kicks. I just put a Sony VPL-VW365 in my upstairs home theater/studio room and it blows away TVs, period. Like, I never give it a second thought. So, for me, it's gonna be an LCD for the situations where I do watch/use a TV like PS4 HDR gaming.

@D-Nice knows what he's talking about, no question. Rock star of the flat-panel world.
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post #95 of 309 Old 04-01-2017, 07:07 PM
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I thought that the "3 USB 2.0" was a typo. Then I watched the youtube and it still showed 3 USB 2.0.

Are we to believe Samsung did not put a USB 3.0 port on this set? I mean dropping 3D was not enough? We're supposed to use a USB 2.0 to play a 4K file on this thing????
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post #96 of 309 Old 04-01-2017, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by w1070hfr View Post
I thought that the "3 USB 2.0" was a typo. Then I watched the youtube and it still showed 3 USB 2.0.

Are we to believe Samsung did not put a USB 3.0 port on this set? I mean dropping 3D was not enough? We're supposed to use a USB 2.0 to play a 4K file on this thing????
USB 2 is 200-500Mbps. 4k requires about 30Mbps.
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post #97 of 309 Old 04-01-2017, 07:26 PM
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[QUOTE=imagic;51946801]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJayDub View Post
For me, the question I would ask of you Imagic, is if you would purchase this tv over an OLED or the Z9D and replace your Samsung plasma with it? DNice saying he would be willing to replace his Kuro plasmas with the new LG C7 OLED carried a lot of weight with me. Just curious if you would give the Q9 a similar recommendation?
OK let's sort through this somewhat complex question/answer.

First things first... I junked the F8500 and don't wish to ever see a plasma again in my life. 1080P with a visible pixel grid? No thanks. Image retention? No thanks. ABL? Hope I never see that acronym again. Limited brightness and no HDR? I'll pass. And the flickering! Hey, I know some folks are not sensitive but blech. Yeah I put up with it because it could make a Blu-ray look great. The F8500 was super accurate and had great uniformity and motion rendering but... it's gone.

OK the Q9 issue is no different than the F8500 issue was. No, I would not buy it now, at launch MSRP. But, that's true for any premium TV. Right now, the Z9D is the TV I'd buy with my money. But as some have pointed out, it debuted somewhat higher than its current price.

Remember LG's first 55" OLED? $15,000 when it debuted, literally $2000 at Micro-Center a year later. I don't think we'll ever see prices come down quite that vertiginously again anytime soon, but if the Q9F becomes available for less, as is always the case with Samsung, then the equation might be different. Ireally do have to weigh the weakness vs. OLED in displaying backs vs. what a beast the Q9F is when it comes to rendering vibrant color and vivid highlights. And not just specular stuff, but large areas of bright and vibrant color.

So far the Q9F's presentation has been excellent. What I can say is I have no desire to look at the KS9800 again?seriously. But... if you factor price then hey, the KS9800 is also a great choice. Really does depend on your wallett and also your usage. I plan video games and use TVs as giant PC monitors, so for me that makes OLED less desirable. The plasma was a truly terrible PC monitor, lol. But I did use it for color grading because again, it was crazy accurate. But, so is the Q9F?I would not hesitate to master video with it.

But unless/until I can get a Z9D to compare to directly, I can't make that specific value judgment vs. Q9D. And I do not expect this MSRP on the Q9F to last long. As for OLED, while I LOVE the deep blacks, here's the reality: I'm gonna stick with front projection to get my cinematic kicks. I just put a Sony VPL-VW365 in my upstairs home theater/studio room and it blows away TVs, period. Like, I never give it a second thought. So, for me, it's gonna be an LCD for the situations where I do watch/use a TV like PS4 HDR gaming.

@D-Nice knows what he's talking about, no question. Rock star of the flat-panel world. [/QUOTE

Its a shame samsung only offers their "flagship" sets at 65 inches. Some of us live in small living room spaces, a 55 ks9800 FLAT screen I would buy im a heartbeat for the prices the q7 55 is going for right now.. wasnt to impressed with it, stuck it back in the box amazon shipped it to me in within 4 hours.
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post #98 of 309 Old 04-01-2017, 07:45 PM
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Imagic, thanks for the review. Can you comment on the Q9D's CMS? Does the Custom mode still use the wide (RGB) color space seen in the Samsung S9C Oled? And is there room for real adjustments in this mode?
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I believe all the calibration comments are coming in Part 2, hopefully soon
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post #100 of 309 Old 04-01-2017, 08:44 PM
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Thanks. I thought he might take a quick look at the CIE chart.
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[QUOTE=produced the best post-calibration peak-luminance numbers, hitting an 1835-nit peak in a 10% window and sustaining 1750 nits for 10 seconds before settling down to 1195 nits.[/QUOTE]

This sounds to crazy to be true, so I'm just going to assume I don't understand this correctly, so during a brightly lit scene (daylight documentary) I can expect the tv to dim it's image significantly even though the scene has not changed, after ten seconds? April fools joke?

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imagic, when you talk about oled, do you talk about 2017 oled? Have you reviewed one? Because it would be great for potential buyers like me to know exactly what is being compared... Some say HDR and color volume have improved in 2017 oleds so I was wondering if the q9 is still better in those areas than the latest oled. Thanks and keep up the good work.

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post #103 of 309 Old 04-01-2017, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
here's the reality: I'm gonna stick with front projection to get my cinematic kicks. I just put a Sony VPL-VW365 in my upstairs home theater/studio room and it blows away TVs, period. Like, I never give it a second thought. So, for me, it's gonna be an LCD for the situations where I do watch/use a TV like PS4 HDR gaming.
What's the draw to a front projector over the TV? Is it just the size/scale of the image? You had positive comments about giant LED screens in the thread about Samsung's CLEDIS competitor, would you take a giant active display over your current front projector set-up if it was financially reasonable, or is there something about a projected image you prefer?

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post #104 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 05:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sbattosai View Post
imagic, when you talk about oled, do you talk about 2017 oled? Have you reviewed one? Because it would be great for potential buyers like me to know exactly what is being compared... Some say HDR and color volume have improved in 2017 oleds so I was wondering if the q9 is still better in those areas than the latest oled. Thanks and keep up the good work.

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I have not had a 2017 OLED in my home or done a hands-on calibration of one since Scott Wilkinson did the W7 first look. I'll have that chance though. Scott was gonna review the Sony OLED but there's a reasonable argument here that I should do it so I can speak to this.

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post #105 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by deanzsyclone View Post
This sounds to crazy to be true, so I'm just going to assume I don't understand this correctly, so during a brightly lit scene (daylight documentary) I can expect the tv to dim it's image significantly even though the scene has not changed, after ten seconds? April fools joke?
Since most current HDR content is mastered to 1000 nits, you can expect this TV to easily render such content faithfully, and have tons of headroom to spare. It'll show an HDR scene without changing a thing indefinitely, and with zero image retention.

Also, this dimming effect did not occur in larger bright patches, only with small windows, that produced very high peaks. Real content it totally stable, for example daylight scenes from Planet Earth II on pause—rock solid.

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post #106 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
What's the draw to a front projector over the TV? Is it just the size/scale of the image? You had positive comments about giant LED screens in the thread about Samsung's CLEDIS competitor, would you take a giant active display over your current front projector set-up if it was financially reasonable, or is there something about a projected image you prefer?
The size of the image is a big part of it. For some, the option to use an acoustically transparent screen is another big draw (I prefer a non-perf scree).

If I could have an active direct-emitting LED screen that's 120 inches horizontal & 2.40:1, like what I have in the projection rig, and the image looked truly seamless, and I could get full HDR and DCI/P3 out of it, I'd take it. Projection is great but a huge emissive display is even better (you can turn on the lights, for one thing).

But right now, once you get past 85" the price/performance ratio starts to tilt very heavily in front projection's favor, especially with Sony and JVC units that can hit amazing OLED-like contrast ratios.

Even 1080P DLP from a $1400 BenQ HT4050 was, as a rule, more compelling than the KS9800 except when watching HDR content on the TV. That's because most content is still 1080p rec.709, which that projector nails for not a lot of $.

Once you get into the better home theater projectors, you get 4K and HDR and the combo looks quite profound. It won't be long before 4K HDR projection with an LED or laser light source that requires no maintenance and turns on instantly will be the norm, at which point the main pain points of projection—bulbs and bulb life and fans and warm-up + cool-downs will be things of the past.

Now, the Sony VLP-VW365 is $10,000, but so is a 75" Q9F QLED, and a 77" LG OLED is $15,000. So the value offered by the Sony is pretty darned high. No, blacks are not perfect, but the overall viewing experience is superior—mostly because of the screen size. There's a reason TV makers can get away with such steep price increases for just a few more inches in screen size, it has that much impact.

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post #107 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 09:51 AM
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Hi Mark,

Do you test input lag by chance? If so could you confirm the input lag being at 15ms in 1080p and 4K as John Archer did in his review?

That is an incredible result regardless and I think it's the lowest result of any 4K TV yet!

Thanks and looking forward to part II!
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post #108 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Mark,

Do you test input lag by chance? If so could you confirm the input lag being at 15ms in 1080p and 4K as John Archer did in his review?

That is an incredible result regardless and I think it's the lowest result of any 4K TV yet!

Thanks and looking forward to part II!
I have just now placed an order for a Leo Bodnar Input Lag Tester, and in the future I'll post numbers. I paid for FEDEX so might even have the measurements as soon as Thursday. Glad to add that to my toolkit, for sure.

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post #109 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 10:09 AM
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Scott was gonna review the Sony OLED but there's a reasonable argument here that I should do it so I can speak to this.
NO!

We need UNBIASED reviews on AVS.
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post #110 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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NO!

We need UNBIASED reviews on AVS.
I strive to publish accurate reviews, it's the best way to avoid bias. As my editor, so does Scott. Regardless of who reviews Sony's OLED, that's what an editorial review of any TV AVR Forum will be... unbiased.

Aside from the subjective judgments all critics make, of course. But when it comes to the calibration reports and such... it's math.

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post #111 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 10:16 AM
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I have just now placed an order for a Leo Bodnar Input Lag Tester, and in the future I'll post numbers. I paid for FEDEX so might even have the measurements as soon as Thursday. Glad to add that to my toolkit, for sure.
Good news, thanks.
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post #112 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
This isn't true anymore starting 2017. LG has really improved upon OLED this year, and the 2017 panels have a wider color gamut, higher brightness with less aggressive ABL, improved shadow detail, and no more artifact issues in near black scenes. One can easily get that high brightness feel from OLED. Imagine what the 2018 OLED improvements will bring. They are quickly becoming what was thought would never exit, the perfect display. Samsung and Sony will be forced to make emissive displays by 2018, whether its sourcing (see Sony's A1E) from LG or scrambling to come up with their own solutions. When this happens, tv's like this Q9F will end up on craigslist for $500 and eventually LCD will only exist in the low-end market. If Samsung can make emissive QD displays, well then LG should start to be worried. But for now, they are king of the hill. I think the Q9F would look great for staging a home for sale, or maybe even turned into a decorative coffee table. Maybe even a doorstop if needed from time-to-time? It truly does look beautiful when turned off. Well done Samsung.

I agree they are greatly improved starting with near blacks and shadow detail. The brightness is bumped but I don't think it's a groundbreaking bump. It still has ABL and can't go past 150 full screen nits. I still think lcds such as Z9D, 940e, ks9800, Q9, 930e will look much better with bright hdr material. I still think 2017 is a pick your poison year. But all tvs (except samsung, imo) have made great strides with blacks.
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I'm pretty sure they have an edge-lit LG LCD slated to compete, so I'll agree with you.

Aside from the Ali vs Frazier of the Z9D vs Q9 it's going to be interesting to see if this is the year LCD upsets OLED. Have we finally reached a point where the greater color volumes and highlight potentials of top-end LCDs can overcome the perfect blacks of OLED? It may come to how SDR vs HDR is weighted.
Samsung's marketing have done a great job over the last couple of years - last year the important thing was peak brightness. You need a 1,000 nits or you are dust ... even Joe Blogg types knew that.

Now it seems to be color volume is this years buzzword. I am fairly confident that 99.9% of consumers won't have a clue what color volume actually is and more importantly why it is important so this may be more of a hard sell for Samsung this year. Especially at the sort of prices quoted.

I wonder what the mark-up on these QLED's will be??
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post #114 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Samsung's marketing have done a great job over the last couple of years - last year the important thing was peak brightness. You need a 1,000 nits or you are dust ... even Joe Blogg types knew that.

Now it seems to be color volume is this years buzzword. I am fairly confident that 99.9% of consumers won't have a clue what color volume actually is and more importantly why it is important so this may be more of a hard sell for Samsung this year. Especially at the sort of prices quoted.

I wonder what the mark-up on these QLED's will be??
As far as features go, color volume is actually an easy sell because high color volume directly translates to brighter and concurrently more vivid images on the showroom floor.

And it's easy to describe... Customer... "What's color volume?" Sales guy... "It means the colors are more vibrant." Done.

You don't have to explain something that is, in the end, one of the main criteria people use to choose a TV when shopping. Not everyone spends hours on forums debating minutia, or cares exactly how dark the blacks of a given TV get.

In a Best Buy, bright and colorful sells, and the Q9F has both those qualities in spades. It'll be interesting to see how it looks in that environment, once demo units are installed.
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post #115 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by cah95046 View Post
USB 2 is 200-500Mbps. 4k requires about 30Mbps.
Good point, but I have 120 Mb/s 4k UHD demos, so they can run much higher than 30 Mb/s.
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post #116 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 11:25 AM
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Samsung's marketing have done a great job over the last couple of years - last year the important thing was peak brightness. You need a 1,000 nits or you are dust ... even Joe Blogg types knew that.

Now it seems to be color volume is this years buzzword. I am fairly confident that 99.9% of consumers won't have a clue what color volume actually is and more importantly why it is important so this may be more of a hard sell for Samsung this year. Especially at the sort of prices quoted.

I wonder what the mark-up on these QLED's will be??
QLED has a ring similar to OLED, Samsung's marketing machinery continues to do a great job. IMO Sony is eating their lunch this year in terms of product but I'm not sure that will be reflected so much in sales.
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post #117 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
As far as features go, color volume is actually an easy sell because high color volume directly translates to brighter and concurrently more vivid images on the showroom floor.

And it's easy to describe... Customer... "What's color volume?" Sales guy... "It means the colors are more vibrant." Done.

You don't have to explain something that is, in the end, one of the main criteria people use to choose a TV when shopping. Not everyone spends hours on forums debating minutia, or cares exactly how dark the blacks of a given TV get.

In a Best Buy, bright and colorful sells, and the Q9F has both those qualities in spades. It'll be interesting to see how it looks in that environment, once demo units are installed.
So you think these Q9's will be flying off the shelf of Best Buy based on colors being more vibrant?? I don't think anybody in their right mind could think this TV will do even remotely well up against the 2017 OLED range and it will be interesting to see if Samsung lose more ground in the premium TV game this year.

All signs thus far point to that being the case ...
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post #118 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 11:34 AM
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Since [most] HDR is mastered to 1000 nits...
Fixed it for you. Some is at 4000.
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post #119 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rikkyjames View Post
So you think these Q9's will be flying off the shelf of Best Buy based on colors being more vibrant?? I don't think anybody in their right mind could think this TV will do even remotely well up against the 2017 OLED range and it will be interesting to see if Samsung lose more ground in the premium TV game this year.

All signs thus far point to that being the case ...
I can't predict the future or consumer buying habits, but I do know that on a show floor it's the same dynamic as used to be the case with plasma versus LED-LCD, where the brighter TV (with higher color volume) is likely gonna look the most vivid under store lighting.

Maybe not relevant to watching TV at home, but that's just a matter of fact—OLEDs are not getting as bright as 2017 quantum dot LED-lit LCDs when showing high APL scenes.

Anyhow, seems one of the main objections with the QLEDs is price, so it'll be interesting to see where street prices settle. My guess is that since at the end of the day it's a flat edgelit LCD, there's a lot of leeway for Samsung to drop prices on QLEDs and still make money.

It'll be interesting to see this all play out. Enthusiasts and luxury/lifestyle customers are two different breeds.

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post #120 of 309 Old 04-02-2017, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Fixed it for you. Some is at 4000.
True, will edit

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