Vizio Launches 2017 M-series and P-series XLED Displays - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
I think the anti glare and glossy screen of the Q9 makes it a much Sexier looking TV . if the blacks are at least close, the Q9 has some major advantages. But the price gap is the biggest problem. Q9 way overpriced. Best buy is now showing planet Earth 2 hdr footage on the Qled TVs, and the colors are incredible. But that price and edge dimming...
If you start looking at specific usage scenarios, the Q9F has more capabilities for sure, and is the more luxurious TV. Yes, the anti-glare performance is top-notch and that's a very important quality. And the Samsung has very little latency for gamers, plus those crazy gorgeous colors.

But man, Vizio gets close in overall PQ and I can't deny that in most cases, with ultra-tough scenes in a dark room, the Q9F will trip up more often that Vizio's FALD. The P series I saw today was hanging with an OLED in a blacked out room, whether it looked better or worse than the OLED was scene-dependent, just like with the Q9F.

Vizio's FALD algorithm really is good at this point, but I also anticipate Samsung could make tweaks to the Q9F, but there are obvious limitations to 32 zones, FALD or edgelit.


(caveat: all discussions of these LCDs assumes on-axis viewing)
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post #92 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by scJohn View Post
My suspicion is that the obsolescence cycle will be back in 2018. The failed Vizio/LeEco merger has to have had a major impact on product development for 2017.


2018 is the planned refresh time for the P series anyways (~2 year cycle). This was the case before the merger talk.


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post #93 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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My suspicion is that the obsolescence cycle will be back in 2018. The failed Vizio/LeEco merger has to have had a major impact on product development for 2017.
There's no reason to think that at all. LeEco is the company that ran out of money, not Vizio. The 2-year cycle was the plan when the merger was still a thing.
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post #94 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 01:18 PM
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Sigh. Those wide feet again.
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post #95 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by scJohn View Post
My suspicion is that the obsolescence cycle will be back in 2018. The failed Vizio/LeEco merger has to have had a major impact on product development for 2017.
Or it could be that Vizio is following LG's OLED path of using a variation of the 'tick tock' model. LG has confirmed its 2017 OLED panels are identical to the 2016 panels ('tock') but with some improved processing, updated OS (one advantage of Vizio's implementation of Chromecast is the more seamless implementation of "OS" improvements), 'active' HDR (which in theory sounds great, but if one is calibrating to the source spec, this is a useless feature--but for typical consumers, if it's implemented well, I suppose it can be perceived as an advantage, even if it's "wrong" from the perspective of the source specification for presentation), and various "stylistic" changes (audio may have changed, too... not sure). From what I understand, it's this processing improvement that allows the 2017 OLEDs to eek out a bit more peak brightness. But in reality, it's the same panel.

So what Vizio is doing isn't unusual (or at least they aren't alone in doing it). What is unusual is that you won't have to buy the 2017 version to receive the improvements. For the LG OLED, if you want 2017 peak brightness levels, you need a 2017 model--even though the panels are identical. For the Vizio P Series, from what I gather, it won't matter if you have the 2016 or 2017 "versions". They'll have identical performance. Seems about the only difference (perhaps) is the remote upgrade in place of the tablet. Sounds as if any prospective P-Series owners ought to see if they can find bargain priced 2016 models while they last. And buy the upgraded remote for $50 (or whatever) if that's important.

It's an interesting approach. Some might say it's gutsy being so transparent, even if it's the case other manufacturers are ostensibly doing the same thing--but without the ability/intention to update the prior year's models containing otherwise identical hardware.
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post #96 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 01:39 PM
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So with everything I am reading the 2016 and 2017 are the same, correct?

But on a more serious note/inquiry:
It appears that the P Series, according to what I've read to this point, will receive the Summer 2017 software update/FW. Does anyone know if the M Series will receive the same treatment and receive the Summer 2017 Software/FW update (on-screen menu/info, on-screen OS for streaming, etc...)? (I love and have no complaints about my M55-D0)

Also, quick note from what I gathered on a few other sites, just because I noticed no one mentioned it on here:
The new OS from Vizio is not going to be the Android TV OS, but Vizio's own OS. And as of now, they will not be including Netflix (so you would still need to use the Cast feature from your phone or included tablet on 2016 models for Netflix)...may change before official release to include Netflix on the on-screen display, but just wait and see at this moment. I just can't imagine why, with an already growing relationship with Google - built-in Chromecast, voice control with Google Home, etc..., they wouldn't use Android TV OS. If ultimately wanting to keep cast feature, but offer on-screen menu for viewing, Android TV offers the best package available and would make this a TV worth purchasing - almost eliminating the need for Roku (Amazon Video being the only missing link) along with kicking the direct competition from TCL's new 2017 TV's right in the face with their built-in Roku OS.

Here's to 2018 Vizio! Keep doing what you do and let's make this thing great!
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post #97 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 01:45 PM
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Sigh. Those wide feet again.

Still.

It's the SAME TV.

It's an easy concept people.

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post #98 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 01:45 PM
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So with everything I am reading the 2016 and 2017 are the same, correct?
Correct

But the 2017, which is no different than the 2016 will cost you more at this time than the 2016.

They're both the same but still, you will pay more for the 2017.

Granted they removed the seemingly expensive tablet remote the 2017 will cost you more even though THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EITHER SETS.

lol

I'm sorry, but this rebranding crap is funny to me. I'll stop.
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post #99 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by thunderbird1100 View Post
Exactly what I'm worried about. 24 frame content is still a really big deal. How will blu-rays, streaming movies, etc...look that are 24 frames now at 60hz over 120hz?
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3:2 pulldown?
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What about proper reproduction of 24fps content? Isn't a 60hz native panel going to inherently introduce some judder since 24 doesn't evenly go into 60?
@Matt McRae addressed this in the P-series owner thread once. The P50, which is a 60Hz panel, changes its refresh rate to 48Hz when it is fed 24p content so it just frame doubles (no 3:2 pulldown). In addition, the P-series can detect 24p content that is sent as a 60p signal, reverse the 3:2 pulldown to get the original 24p signal and then output it at 48Hz to avoid the 3:2 judder in a process he called Pure Cinema mode (I'm not sure if the lower level models do this too, but all can switch to 48Hz for 24p signals afaik). Rtings indicated that all models of the P-series (including the P50) passed their judder free 24p tests and passed the 24p over 60p/60i too.

From what I've read, 60Hz panels changing to 48Hz when fed 24p content is actually pretty common these days (although not widely publicized since many people don't know much about framerates or 3:2 pulldown). On most high end TVs made within the last few years, 3:2 pulldown is only an issue when you have movies over TV broadcasts (or from other devices that only output at 60p). In these cases the cable company (or device) has already implemented 3:2 pulldown to maintain their standard 60p broadcast. Some TVs can detect and reverse this as in Vizio's Pure Cinema mode. The rtings article I linked discusses this challenge. You'll notice in that article that only 7 of the 39 TVs tested failed when they were given a 24p input signal, and many of the ones that passed were 60Hz panels (meaning they must change to 48Hz). However, only 10 models were able to detect 24p sent as 60p and correct it (several 120Hz panels failed the test). This issue (24p movies sent over 60p signal) will be a problem regardless of whether your TV is 120Hz or 60Hz as the TV must be able to detect and reverse the 3:2 pulldown in order to show it at the proper framerate.

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post #100 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 01:55 PM
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Can't blame 'em. All TVs are irrelevant until HDMI 2.1 comes out in 2018.
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post #101 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 02:05 PM
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Yes that was HDR. And yes Vizio was basically saying "look how good our Movie mode defaults are vs. that TV"

But the main difference is the Samsung's letterbox bars just cannot compete against the Vizio, even with the E series' minimalist FALD implementation, there's no competition.
Not telling everyone that one display is actually showing HDR and the other one isn't is not a fair comparison. They were both receiving an HDR signal but the Samsung TVs were not configured properly to display it. The Samsung TVs don't look like that unless that is the case.
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post #102 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Not telling everyone that one display is actually showing HDR and the other one isn't is not a fair comparison. They were both receiving an HDR signal but the Samsung TVs were not configured properly to display it. The Samsung TVs don't look like that unless that is the case.
The reason the Samsung looks that way is because the Vizio is on-axis and the Samsung is off-axis. If you stand in front of the Samsung (I did) then the Vizio looks washed out. That's just a terrible photo that should not have been posted, or at least should been posted with a disclaimer. Vizio asked me not to post a photo of that comparison because of copyright issues with the content they showed (a real movie, not a demo loop) so I don't have images to show. Wish I did.

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If you start looking at specific usage scenarios, the Q9F has more capabilities for sure, and is the more luxurious TV. Yes, the anti-glare performance is top-notch and that's a very important quality. And the Samsung has very little latency for gamers, plus those crazy gorgeous colors.

But man, Vizio gets close in overall PQ and I can't deny that in most cases, with ultra-tough scenes in a dark room, the Q9F will trip up more often that Vizio's FALD. The P series I saw today was hanging with an OLED in a blacked out room, whether it looked better or worse than the OLED was scene-dependent, just like with the Q9F.

Vizio's FLAD algorithm really is good at this point, but I also anticipate Samsung could make tweaks to the Q9F, but there are obvious limitations to 32 zones, FALD or edgelit.

Oh, and one thing the Q9F does better than the P series for sure? Keep the letterbox bars dark. I was surprised by this , but I'm fairly confident in the observation. I saw floating blacks during the Vizio P series demo, while on the Q9F I have to measure to catch the floating, visually they stay solid black.

(caveat: all discussions of these LCDs assumes on-axis viewing)

Which P-Series were you viewing, the C or the E? Current C series owners seem to say that their Black Bars stay Black at all times (unlike new Sony TV's that they also own like the 900e and 940e). So if you viewed the new Visio E series I am wondering if something has changed from C to E or are current C owners just mistaken? Or??


I have not had much opportunity to check out the current P-series as it is only at Costco in Canada and they do not display them. Luckily my friend just got the P65 C-1 a week ago and I will check it out soon.
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post #104 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JKR1963 View Post
Which P-Series were you viewing, the C or the E? Current C series owners seem to say that their Black Bars stay Black at all times (unlike new Sony TV's that they also own like the 900e and 940e). So if you viewed the new Visio E series I am wondering if something has changed from C to E or are current C owners just mistaken? Or??


I have not had much opportunity to check out the current P-series as it is only at Costco in Canada and they do not display them. Luckily my friend just got the P65 C-1 a week ago and I will check it out soon.
I have the P50-C1 and my black bars stay pitch black during movies as far as I can tell.
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post #105 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The reason the Samsung looks that way is because the Vizio is on-axis and the Samsung is off-axis. If you stand in front of the Samsung (I did) then the Vizio looks washed out. That's just a terrible photo that should not have been posted, or at least should been posted with a disclaimer. Vizio asked me not to post a photo of that comparison because of copyright issues with the content they showed (a real movie, not a demo loop) so I don't have images to show. Wish I did.
Both TVs were off axis in the other picture. However, both TVs appear to be on axis in the pictures below. How do explain the color difference between the M-series and the Q7 in this picture? The Q7 is light years ahead of the M-series for color according to all of the reviews and specs. However, these pictures make it look like the Q7 isn't even a wide color gamut TV.

The only explanation for the pictures below is that the HDMI UHD Color Setting was not turned on for the Q7. That invalidates the entire comparison right there.


From RTINGS.com

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"For watching HDR content via an HDMI input it is important to set the 'HDMI UHD Color' on for each HDMI input that will receive the HDR content. This will allow the HDMI port to transmit the bandwidth necessary for HDR. If the 'HDMI UHD Color' is not turned on, some devices might not see the Q7F as being HDR compatible."


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post #106 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Both TVs were off axis in the other picture. However, both TVs appear to be on axis in the pictures below. How do explain the color difference between the M-series and the Q7 in this picture? The Q7 is light years ahead of the M-series for color according to all of the reviews and specs. However, these pictures make it look like the Q7 isn't even a wide color gamut TV.

The only explanation for the pictures below is that the HDMI UHD Color Setting was not turned on for the Q7. That invalidates the entire comparison right there.


From RTINGS.com




I was not discussing the M series vs. Q7 comparison, that's correct. I don't have an explanation for this. I do agree that the QLEDs have awesome color. It does look like the photographer is still a bit shifted to the left and shooting to the right... You can see the left side of each screen is taller than the right, a hint it's not truly centered.

When I saw that comparison, the TVs looked very similar when viewed head-on, with a slight saturation advantage going to the Samsung.

I saw this comparison in person. These photos are just creating confusion because they were not taken meticulously.

Best is to shoot each TV head-on and then put the pics side-by-side using photoshop.

Must say, I'm disappointed I was not allowed to take pics, and now these pics are in this thread anyhow... but they are not of the quality I'd like in order to have this discussion.
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post #107 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Which P-Series were you viewing, the C or the E? Current C series owners seem to say that their Black Bars stay Black at all times (unlike new Sony TV's that they also own like the 900e and 940e). So if you viewed the new Visio E series I am wondering if something has changed from C to E or are current C owners just mistaken? Or??


I have not had much opportunity to check out the current P-series as it is only at Costco in Canada and they do not display them. Luckily my friend just got the P65 C-1 a week ago and I will check it out soon.
I'm talking about something extremely mild you have to be close to the TV and looking at the bar to see it. I'd say the P series letterbox bars stay perceptually black when viewed normally, and this was a truly, totally black room with black walls and everything. The harshest possible conditions for a transmissive display.

I don't know which iteration of P I saw. I'm sure @Matt McRae knows.

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post #108 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Oh, and one thing the Q9F does better than the P series for sure? Keep the letterbox bars dark. I was surprised by this , but I'm fairly confident in the observation. I saw floating blacks during the Vizio P series demo, while on the Q9F I have to measure to catch the floating, visually they stay solid black.

(caveat: all discussions of these LCDs assumes on-axis viewing)
I find this odd because I watch all my movies in a black room and I haven't once seen them pop up in the 13 months I've owned mine. Could be a glitch in the new beta firmware.

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post #109 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I find this odd because I watch all my movies in a black room and I haven't once seen them pop up in the 13 months I've owned mine. Could be a glitch in the new beta firmware.
I'm gonna redact that statement because in reality it's a non issue and people are running with it, just like they ran with that photo. So, my comment about the letterbox bars? It has grown incredibly tiresome to try and defend nuanced observations. Forget it. Zap. That post has been edited. P series letterbox bars are black.
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I'm talking about something extremely mild you have to be close to the TV and looking at the bar to see it. I'd say the P series letterbox bars stay perceptually black when viewed normally, and this was a truly, totally black room with black walls and everything. The harshest possible conditions for a transmissive display.

I don't know which iteration of P I saw. I'm sure @Matt McRae knows.

Thank you for clarifying Mark. It is of interest and concern to me.......as I am interested in the 75" to replace my 65ST60 and cannot see one before I order it. I guess they would not let you take any video like you did in Irvine last year?
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Thank you for clarifying Mark. It is of interest and concern to me.......as I am interested in the 75" to replace my 65ST60 and cannot see one before I order it. I guess they would not let you take any video like you did in Irvine last year?
Sorry, no video of the demos.

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I'm gonna redact that statement because in reality it's a non issue and people are running with it, just like they ran with that photo. So, my comment about the letterbox bars? It has grown incredibly tiresome to try and defend nuanced observations. Forget it. Zap. That post has been edited. P series letterbox bars are black.
hahaha... I wasn't running with it, was just saying I haven't seen it. I do look forward to your article and you getting one to play with for a while. I do hope you buy one though so you don't get posts about it being from Vizio and so special and all... =)
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post #113 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 04:31 PM
 
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I could not agree more. If Samsung made a proper FALD QLED, people on AVS Forum would likely be praising the company's flagship instead of criticizing it. That's definitely the reality of the situation. Man, the Vizio P looked good today. As Matt noted, the hardware may be the same but the TV has gotten better over time thanks to improved FALD implementation.

Right now, based on what I saw, I'd say the P series looks like it can hold the mantle of price/performance champion TV for another year. Wow.

Will then it is a good thing Hisense did make a proper FALD QLED with the 320 zone 70H10D and 560 zone 75H10D. Let us just hope they actually release them soon, so we can see HDR done right.
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post #114 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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hahaha... I wasn't running with it, was just saying I haven't seen it. I do look forward to your article and you getting one to play with for a while. I do hope you buy one though so you don't get posts about it being from Vizio and so special and all... =)
Lol, well I dunno about buying TVs to review them. If you guys want to start a collection, I'm all for it.

The thing is the P series is well reviewed and its performance is documented already, so I'm not worried about getting some golden sample (which is a bit of a fantasy). Yes companies check to make sure a TV is free of defects, but so would I. So, anyone who would exchange a TV they think is not up to par should be interested in reviews of samples that are similarly vetted.

Anyhow, since the hardware is the same, one of the main reasons I asked for one is to see what the new software is like.
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post #115 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Lol, well I dunno about buying TVs to review them. If you guys want to start a collection, I'm all for it.

The thing is the P series is well reviewed and its performance is documented already, so I'm not worried about getting some golden sample (which is a bit of a fantasy). Yes companies check to make sure a TV is free of defects, but so would I. So, anyone who would exchange a TV they think is not up to par should be interested in reviews of samples that are similarly vetted.

Anyhow, since the hardware is the same, one of the main reasons I asked for one is to see what the new software is like.
Good point.... I look forward to what we having coming.

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post #116 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 04:36 PM
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I was not discussing the M series vs. Q7 comparison, that's correct. I don't have an explanation for this. I do agree that the QLEDs have awesome color. It does look like the photographer is still a bit shifted to the left and shooting to the right... You can see the left side of each screen is taller than the right, a hint it's not truly centered.

When I saw that comparison, the TVs looked very similar when viewed head-on, with a slight saturation advantage going to the Samsung.

I saw this comparison in person. These photos are just creating confusion because they were not taken meticulously.

Best is to shoot each TV head-on and then put the pics side-by-side using photoshop.

Must say, I'm disappointed I was not allowed to take pics, and now these pics are in this thread anyhow... but they are not of the quality I'd like in order to have this discussion.
It is possible that he took the pictures and then the settings were corrected after that and that is why no one complained there. All I know is the Samsung TVs were not in a state that represents their HDR capabilities when those pictures were taken.

Can you confirm that the "HDMI UHD Color" setting must be on for the Q-series in order to properly display HDR content? Is that setting on by default?

I also have to say that I have experienced a test like this in person before. The difference between having the "HDMI UHD Color" setting on or not is striking no matter what angle it is from and no matter what the conditions are. If it is off and it is being fed an HDR signal you will know about it and it will show up in pictures even with a smart phone.
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post #117 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 04:47 PM
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@Matt McRae addressed this in the P-series owner thread once. The P50, which is a 60Hz panel, changes its refresh rate to 48Hz when it is fed 24p content so it just frame doubles (no 3:2 pulldown). In addition, the P-series can detect 24p content that is sent as a 60p signal, reverse the 3:2 pulldown to get the original 24p signal and then output it at 48Hz to avoid the 3:2 judder in a process he called Pure Cinema mode (I'm not sure if the lower level models do this too, but all can switch to 48Hz for 24p signals afaik). Rtings indicated that all models of the P-series (including the P50) passed their judder free 24p tests and passed the 24p over 60p/60i too.

From what I've read, 60Hz panels changing to 48Hz when fed 24p content is actually pretty common these days (although not widely publicized since many people don't know much about framerates or 3:2 pulldown). On most high end TVs made within the last few years, 3:2 pulldown is only an issue when you have movies over TV broadcasts (or from other devices that only output at 60p). In these cases the cable company (or device) has already implemented 3:2 pulldown to maintain their standard 60p broadcast. Some TVs can detect and reverse this as in Vizio's Pure Cinema mode. The rtings article I linked discusses this challenge. You'll notice in that article that only 7 of the 39 TVs tested failed when they were given a 24p input signal, and many of the ones that passed were 60Hz panels (meaning they must change to 48Hz). However, only 10 models were able to detect 24p sent as 60p and correct it (several 120Hz panels failed the test). This issue (24p movies sent over 60p signal) will be a problem regardless of whether your TV is 120Hz or 60Hz as the TV must be able to detect and reverse the 3:2 pulldown in order to show it at the proper framerate.
Last year's TCL models were able to do this (judder free 24p@60Hz). That's why I hoping the upcoming TCL P series with Dolby Vision will as well. The 2017 65" TCL P model should come in at <$1k.

I don't really care much about 1080p@120Hz gaming because I'm buying a 4k TV I'd be gaming at 4k/60Hz anyways.

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post #118 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 05:16 PM
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Still.

It's the SAME TV.

It's an easy concept people.
But, it's not a TV! No tuner makes it a display.
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post #119 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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But, it's not a TV! No tuner makes it a display.
Ah, but what has happened is the return of the remote and the built-in app capability now has Vizio referring to Smart TV features in these displays, so they are kinda TVs again. But only in the smart context. Anyhow, the actual term TV is now associated with these, and the term Home Cinema Display has been put to rest.

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post #120 of 477 Old 04-25-2017, 07:17 PM
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Correct.

We looked at our product line up and most gamers that would actually use a 120hz are buying P Series. People DO care about color and brightness. So the new M Series has two major changes... first is that the backlight peaks to 600nits... and second we brought in our Ultra Color Spectrum technology.
This is smart thinking.

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