Ask the Editors: What TVs and AVRs Have the Best Upscaling? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 49 Old 05-16-2017, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Ask the Editors: What TVs and AVRs Have the Best Upscaling?

Tom has a large collection of DVDs that he'd rather not replace. What 75" TVs and AVRs have the best upscaling?

http://www.avsforum.com/tvs-avrs-bes...g-ask-editors/
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post #2 of 49 Old 05-16-2017, 02:15 PM
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One word: KS9800
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post #3 of 49 Old 05-16-2017, 02:26 PM
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Not "ALL" Samsung TV's are edgelit - many are FALD. As far as which is better at upscaling: I prefer to let my Marantz AV8802A Pre-pro handle the upscale rather than my Sammy UN65JS9500. However, the difference in quality is negligible to my eyes.
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Sony 65" A1E. Spectrum cable looks fabulous!

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post #5 of 49 Old 05-16-2017, 03:41 PM
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I let my xbox 1s do the heaving lifting.
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post #6 of 49 Old 05-16-2017, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0rnarian View Post
One word: KS9800
Not a word, it's a model number. :P
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post #7 of 49 Old 05-16-2017, 04:18 PM
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post #8 of 49 Old 05-16-2017, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizban11 View Post
Not "ALL" Samsung TV's are edgelit - many are FALD. As far as which is better at upscaling: I prefer to let my Marantz AV8802A Pre-pro handle the upscale rather than my Sammy UN65JS9500. However, the difference in quality is negligible to my eyes.
Well, all 2017 Samsungs are edgelit; I just updated the article to reflect that. Also, I disagree that "many" are FALD; there's one from 2016 (KS9800) and one from 2015 (JS9500), but I wouldn't call that "many."

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post #9 of 49 Old 05-16-2017, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jermar View Post
Sony 65" A1E. Spectrum cable looks fabulous!
I'm sure it does. I didn't include OLEDs in my response because Tom wants a 75-incher, and the LG and Sony 77" OLEDs aren't out yet. Also, they will be far more expensive than even the 75Z9D.

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post #10 of 49 Old 05-16-2017, 09:06 PM
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An alternate to upscaling would be to use DarbeeVisions DVP-5000s. It makes quiet an impact with image enhancement.
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post #11 of 49 Old 05-16-2017, 09:56 PM
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I have a Vizio P75-C1. And I'd agree that the upscaling from 720p or less isn't all that great. But I think it does a nice job upscaling 1080p content--though I admit to not being able to compare it with Sony or Samsung. But I don't have any "complaints" with the 1080p upscaling--it's the 720p or less that has visible room for improvement. So in that regard, for non-native 1080p or 4k content (typically, this is content from my DirecTV box), I actually DO use an AVR to do the upscaling to 1080p (or 1080p/24 if it's a movie).

I know the article suggests against this approach, but for my chain, I actually think it does quite a nice job. And I rarely notice any artifacts or general "issues". I'm quite pleased with it. I have a 2013 Pioneer SC-1323-K--which is a pretty decent AVR--retailed at about $1300 (though I paid about half that when I bought it in January 2014). Incidentally, it also has 4k upscaling--but not all the way to 60 frames. At that time, 4k was in its infancy and was at 30 frames per second. I've watched movies using the receiver to upscale to 1080p/24 and to 4k/24. With the latter, the Vizio doesn't upscale further (at least that's my understanding). So this would be an instance where only one device did the upscaling (in this case, the Pioneer AVR is doing the whole enchilada)--which the article suggests is the preferred method. But at least in my chain, I respectfully disagree. To my eye, having the AVR do the 1080p/24 upscaling, and letting the Vizio do the rest gives a more pleasing picture experience. Similarly, if I take the AVR out of the chain and let the Vizio handle the entire upscaling process, it gives an inferior picture, imo. It's subtle--and I don't know if I could specifically identify what's different. It just seems better to my eye to let the Vizio do the 1080p to 4k part, and the Pioneer AVR do the 720p/1080i to 1080p/1080p24 part, even if it introduces two upscalers in the chain.

So I wouldn't dismiss using a high quality AVR as an upscaler. I've used a colorimeter and performed various calibration tests through a direct chain and through the AVR upconversion chain, and the results are basically identical. So as far as I can tell, the AVR isn't introducing any residual impact on the grayscale, black levels, brightness, or color readings. It's just doing partial upscaling. And at least for my situation, I'm very satisfied with the results.
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post #12 of 49 Old 05-16-2017, 11:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Suchocki View Post
I have a Vizio P75-C1. And I'd agree that the upscaling from 720p or less isn't all that great. But I think it does a nice job upscaling 1080p content--though I admit to not being able to compare it with Sony or Samsung. But I don't have any "complaints" with the 1080p upscaling--it's the 720p or less that has visible room for improvement. So in that regard, for non-native 1080p or 4k content (typically, this is content from my DirecTV box), I actually DO use an AVR to do the upscaling to 1080p (or 1080p/24 if it's a movie).

I know the article suggests against this approach, but for my chain, I actually think it does quite a nice job. And I rarely notice any artifacts or general "issues". I'm quite pleased with it. I have a 2013 Pioneer SC-1323-K--which is a pretty decent AVR--retailed at about $1300 (though I paid about half that when I bought it in January 2014). Incidentally, it also has 4k upscaling--but not all the way to 60 frames. At that time, 4k was in its infancy and was at 30 frames per second. I've watched movies using the receiver to upscale to 1080p/24 and to 4k/24. With the latter, the Vizio doesn't upscale further (at least that's my understanding). So this would be an instance where only one device did the upscaling (in this case, the Pioneer AVR is doing the whole enchilada)--which the article suggests is the preferred method. But at least in my chain, I respectfully disagree. To my eye, having the AVR do the 1080p/24 upscaling, and letting the Vizio do the rest gives a more pleasing picture experience. Similarly, if I take the AVR out of the chain and let the Vizio handle the entire upscaling process, it gives an inferior picture, imo. It's subtle--and I don't know if I could specifically identify what's different. It just seems better to my eye to let the Vizio do the 1080p to 4k part, and the Pioneer AVR do the 720p/1080i to 1080p/1080p24 part, even if it introduces two upscalers in the chain.

So I wouldn't dismiss using a high quality AVR as an upscaler. I've used a colorimeter and performed various calibration tests through a direct chain and through the AVR upconversion chain, and the results are basically identical. So as far as I can tell, the AVR isn't introducing any residual impact on the grayscale, black levels, brightness, or color readings. It's just doing partial upscaling. And at least for my situation, I'm very satisfied with the results.
Glad to see a counter-example to my argument!

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post #13 of 49 Old 05-16-2017, 11:37 PM
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I have a 1080p 40" vizio e from 2015 and a 55" 4k e from last year, cable looks better on the 1080tv. Im using charter spectrum with 1080i set on the box.
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post #14 of 49 Old 05-16-2017, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
I have a 1080p 40" vizio e from 2015 and a 55" 4k e from last year, cable looks better on the 1080tv. Im using charter spectrum with 1080i set on the box.
I had my Spectrum cable box replaced a few weeks ago. The new box also reads always 1080i. I wonder if this hurts 720p that is used by some stations.

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post #15 of 49 Old 05-17-2017, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jermar View Post
I had my Spectrum cable box replaced a few weeks ago. The new box also reads always 1080i. I wonder if this hurts 720p that is used by some stations.
converting 720p60 to 1080i60 is a heavy conversation with a general quality loss and resolution loss!
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post #16 of 49 Old 05-17-2017, 03:06 AM
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Onkyo TR-NR818 supports 4K upscaling, but not sure how good it is.
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post #17 of 49 Old 05-17-2017, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
I have a 1080p 40" vizio e from 2015 and a 55" 4k e from last year, cable looks better on the 1080tv. Im using charter spectrum with 1080i set on the box.
Different size tv's.... the dpi is smaller on the 40 inch
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post #18 of 49 Old 05-17-2017, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Suchocki View Post
I have a Vizio P75-C1. And I'd agree that the upscaling from 720p or less isn't all that great. But I think it does a nice job upscaling 1080p content--though I admit to not being able to compare it with Sony or Samsung. But I don't have any "complaints" with the 1080p upscaling--it's the 720p or less that has visible room for improvement. So in that regard, for non-native 1080p or 4k content (typically, this is content from my DirecTV box), I actually DO use an AVR to do the upscaling to 1080p (or 1080p/24 if it's a movie).

I know the article suggests against this approach, but for my chain, I actually think it does quite a nice job. And I rarely notice any artifacts or general "issues". I'm quite pleased with it. I have a 2013 Pioneer SC-1323-K--which is a pretty decent AVR--retailed at about $1300 (though I paid about half that when I bought it in January 2014). Incidentally, it also has 4k upscaling--but not all the way to 60 frames. At that time, 4k was in its infancy and was at 30 frames per second. I've watched movies using the receiver to upscale to 1080p/24 and to 4k/24. With the latter, the Vizio doesn't upscale further (at least that's my understanding). So this would be an instance where only one device did the upscaling (in this case, the Pioneer AVR is doing the whole enchilada)--which the article suggests is the preferred method. But at least in my chain, I respectfully disagree. To my eye, having the AVR do the 1080p/24 upscaling, and letting the Vizio do the rest gives a more pleasing picture experience. Similarly, if I take the AVR out of the chain and let the Vizio handle the entire upscaling process, it gives an inferior picture, imo. It's subtle--and I don't know if I could specifically identify what's different. It just seems better to my eye to let the Vizio do the 1080p to 4k part, and the Pioneer AVR do the 720p/1080i to 1080p/1080p24 part, even if it introduces two upscalers in the chain.

So I wouldn't dismiss using a high quality AVR as an upscaler. I've used a colorimeter and performed various calibration tests through a direct chain and through the AVR upconversion chain, and the results are basically identical. So as far as I can tell, the AVR isn't introducing any residual impact on the grayscale, black levels, brightness, or color readings. It's just doing partial upscaling. And at least for my situation, I'm very satisfied with the results.
I have the p65 with the latest beta and can say without a doubt that cable watching was Mediocre at best a year ago but now has improved dramatically with the latest beta firmware.
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post #19 of 49 Old 05-17-2017, 03:22 AM
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Different size tv's.... the dpi is smaller on the 40 inch

Not true, my 55" 4k has higher pixel density than my 40". I dunno why, but cable just looks better on the 1080p TV.
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post #20 of 49 Old 05-17-2017, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Tom has a large collection of DVDs that he'd rather not replace. What 75" TVs and AVRs have the best upscaling?
If the concern is a DVD collection, I would not be looking at either a TV model or AVR to be doing the upscaling. I would go straight to an Oppo blu ray player. I do not yet own one of the 200 series players (their current models), but the 103 and 105 that I own both do an amazing job of upscaling DVDs to 1080p at either 24fps or 60Hz output.

Get an Oppo, you will not be disappointed.

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post #21 of 49 Old 05-17-2017, 04:17 AM
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Your artical is good. I can add a little more to it.

There are a number of processing involved with the generic term "upscaling". Rather than comparing resolution changes in "stepped" upscaling, I would compare the different processing in different gear to mix/match for the best results.

From the DVD resolution of 480i to 4k60. These below processing occur

De-interlacing: 480 interlaced to 480 progressive scan lines. This is probably the most difficult task in the entire chain. None of the devices out there does it perfectly but some come pretty close. Scaling can only occur in progressive therefore all interlaced sources including 1080i must be deinterlaced.

UpScaling: this is literally digital zoom on your low res video. Smart algorithms guess/estimate the pixels to make up a higher resolution picture from the original low res. Some do this guessing/estimating better than others.

Colorspace conversion: DVD is rec.601 and 4K can be rec.709 or 2020. You are not adding more colors but mapping the available colors in a bigger colorspace so they align well. This is generally done with respectable results in most gear.

Upsampling: all digital media is in 4:2:0 form. Hdmi can't do any less than 4:2:2. So at least an upsampling of 4:2:0 to 4:2:0. Again, this is generally done in acceptable quality in most devices.

There are also noise reduction, edge enhancement and artificial sharpening functions as add ons. I don't like them but they should also be explored in each device individually as some do it better than others. Generally you want to apply these at the source resolution before any scaling occurs.

I would get some test footage to evaluate deinterlacing in each device in turn first. Then work on scaling. I would feed the tv 4:2:2 (4:2:0 in case of 4K) at the end.
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post #22 of 49 Old 05-17-2017, 04:37 AM
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De-interlacing: 480 interlaced to 480 progressive scan lines. This is probably the most difficult task in the entire chain. None of the devices out there does it perfectly but some come pretty close. Scaling can only occur in progressive therefore all interlaced sources including 1080i must be deinterlaced.
deinterlancing it self is upscaling you can do this directly to the output resolution.

soft telecine DVDs are technically progressive so this case is boring because there is nothing to do and perfect.

the really complicated part is the hard telecine on DVDs. good "deinterlancer" are recovering the original frame rate of these disc and the output is again progressive done with field matching.

than we have true interlanced DVDs. but again they are just upscaled with some more fancy upscaling tricks.

Quote:
UpScaling: this is literally digital zoom on your low res video. Smart algorithms guess/estimate the pixels to make up a higher resolution picture from the original low res. Some do this guessing/estimating better than others.
digital zoom is done by cropping the image down and upscaling/downscaling the reminding image to the screen resolution this is defiantly not done when upscaling an DVD/image.

and there is a simple reason to not add this this is way to technical.
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post #23 of 49 Old 05-17-2017, 06:52 AM
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The first 1080p blu-ray titles were released in june 2006. That gives one 11 years to replace, at least partially, ones DVD collection by buying the blu-ray version. A 1080p TV will do one thing best which is displaying 1080p material. DVD quality, even when propper upscaled on a 1080p TV, can not touch that.
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it doesn't matter how old the BD spec is. there is a lot of content with no BD release.
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post #25 of 49 Old 05-17-2017, 07:08 AM
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it doesn't matter how old the BD spec is. there is a lot of content with no BD release.
When i look at my collection there are less than 20 movies which are not released on blu-ray.. Only those who really like old movies are screwed here..
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you are not the only person out there and the list is pretty long.
and there is other content than movies.
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you are not the only person out there and the list is pretty long.
I myself recently watched Bronson ''Deathwish'' 2,3,4 on blu-ray, even can buy his classic Hard Times on blu-ray if i want to. Just bought Krull on blu-ray. Just stumbled on Memoirs of the Invisible Man on blu-ray..one that i still have on DVD. There is lots 70/80 stuff released on blu-ray bit by bit..pre 70s is harder to get..must be really old..or a fan for that..
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and there is other content than movies.
The thread is about a guy and his DVD collection..
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post #28 of 49 Old 05-17-2017, 08:43 AM
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This thread is very interesting and applies to my situation too.

I'm in the market for a new 65" (my Samsung F8500 failed recently). I have an extensive DVD and BD collection, but I rip all my movies to MKV and playback with JRiver Media Center (and madVR) on a dedicated HTPC at each TV, so I don't have an option to get a good up-scaling DVD/BD/UHD player. I have the Denon AVR-X4200W (that's not going to be replaced any time soon), and I'm not going to replace my old DVD movie rips - its just not worth the cost for the visual improvement. But I still want the best picture with the formats I have. Also, I don't plan on buying UHD movies any time soon (at least not until they can be ripped) but all the new TVs are UHD so I don't have much choice there. Since I'm going to be buying a new TV soon, I might as well get one with good/best up-scaling capabilities.

So far, I guess the Sony (Z9D or A1E) are the preferred choices.
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post #29 of 49 Old 05-17-2017, 09:12 AM
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The thread is about a guy and his DVD collection..
TV series...
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post #30 of 49 Old 05-17-2017, 11:45 AM
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Upscaling - Not a final opinion

I have a LG 65e6v TV, a Marantz 7011 AVR and an "old" Sony 770 BD reader (this while the Oppo that costs 850€ or more around here doesn't became less expensive , if not maybe another Sony or Panny soon). All this to say that I turned off the "upscaler" of the Marantz and is the TV that does what it needs to present the 4K image on the screen. Why? First because I avoid (for now with no 4K BD reader yet) the necessity of higher frequencies in the HDMI cables (they need to pass only signals till 1080p) and also because like this I try to avoid several consecutive upscales (AVR and/or TV) and last because I need to do more tests to the image quality with the different upscale options. Except the TV Box and BD reader, almost all the other sources are processed by the TV (Netflix, NAS, ...) where they arrive through an Ethernet cable.
PS: My Sony PJ goes only to 1080p too and is connected to the second HDMI output of the AVR.
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