Samsung 88" Q9F QLED HDR UHDTV Launches - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 77 Old 08-11-2017, 12:02 AM
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accidentally double posted when I thought my 1st post..this post...didn't go through. Deleting so it doesn't look weird :-) lol

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post #62 of 77 Old 08-11-2017, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/qled-q9f-q9


Rtings rated the dimming performance a 2.0 out of 10. a 2.0 lol
Also. you can find any review online from professionals that have had negative things to say about the backlighting on the Q9. From flatpanelHD, Forbes, HDGuru. Granted those reviews were for the 65", but there is no indication whatsoever that the 88" version will have an advanced backlight system over the smaller version.
I'm not really trying to bash the tv. But as a previus owner of edge lit Samsung tvs (F7100, HU8550, HU9000), and then Samsung FALD tvs (JS9500, KS9800), it blows my mind and is a slap in the face to go back to edge lit tvs and still charge a giant premium.
Hey cool. Rtings has been called out for flawed Q9F reviews on this site and HDGuru cred is also suspect. Personal opinion, I'll take imagic's hands-on, real world advice with respect to the 65".
Back to my original question. Proof with respect to your 88" claims? Haven't seen one reviewed anywhere so your comments are supposition, nonsense and non-factually misleading.
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post #63 of 77 Old 08-11-2017, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Sorry, but every expert or reviewer that has had the Q9 next to ANY of the TVs i listed above have all agreed the Q9 has the inferior backlight design. Every. Single. Expert.

Perhaps you missed the 2017 value electronics shootout? The Q9 was flat out embarrassed off the stage when it came to dark room performance.

Does the Q9 have its own strengths? Of. Course it does. It has the best anti glare panel on the market and beautiful vibrant colors. Bright room Performance is excellent on the Q9 also, super impressive.


Don't be fooled by the Q9. I believe it is a placeholder TV until Samsung releases Qled next year with Quantum Dot Color Filters on the front of the panel. This is supposed to drastically improve viewing angles and also lower light bleed as certain Blu lights won't be needed anymore to light the picture. MAYBE I'll upgrade my ks9800 with one of those bad boys.
I already have a posted in this thread several examples of professional reviews (and I could post more) that gave the TV very high marks and focusing on dimming alone is not what buying a TV is about. The shoot out is not at all representative of the average conditions of what is in a person's home or what they would perceive and Rtings isn't the bible of what every brain should follow (not to mention I trust Consumer Reports more). Even the shoot out organizers have stated that the purpose of the shoot out is to measure against a specific reference against very specific criteria. It has zero reliability of what a consumer should judge his/her own purchase on. It has nothing to do with what average consumers watch. It didn't test the TVs in the average often brighter conditions with windows that most people have. Nor did the shoot out test the size that many more people are leaning toward. When you watch a movie, do you go by what every critic thinks...or the ones that you want to focus on? When you buy a phone, do you go by which ones had the best test results, or the experience that just works for you for what you look for? If I did that I would have missed quite a number of great movies and regretted quite a number of phone pruchases.

I agree with you that there are better TVs (especially when price is a factor), but again, this thread is about the 88" Q9, it has a purpose for a certain audience, you just mentioned several of them with regard to the glare, colors, bright room performance....to some like me..that is more important than contrast in dark conditions which is a minor part of my viewing. I don't care about viewing angles because 99% of the time I'm centered in front of my TV and my non technical guests couldn't care less and would be happy watching a TV from 2000. I also don't want to worry about Burn In and fiddle with settings or worry about did I forget to unpause my DVR in fear of being a victim of Burn In even if the possibility is only a 10% chance. When someone buys a 8K+ device, they should be able to watch whatever they want as often as they want including news channels with static logos or games with static HUDs. Like I said, everyone has different priorities. If I wanted a 75-77", I'm not so sure I would be debating you on this topic.

If someone has done the research in person, then there is nothing to be fooled by. I will say that you are absolutely correct, there will be something by Samsung better next year. Guess what? There will also be something better by LG next year....and by Sony next year....and the year after that...and the year after that....zzzzzzzzzz.

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post #64 of 77 Old 08-11-2017, 01:03 AM
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My morning thoughts to echo some others on here... I think it's unfair and a little misleading to propective customers to compare this TV to anything other than display tech at this size. Bash the 65 by all means but for those looking for larger screens the comparisons surely have to be against former JS&KS models and possibly a similar priced projector and screen. You pick an 88 inch for the immersion factor in your given room that 75/77 can't offer no matter how much better their picture might be... & who's to say if an OLED was made at this size that it would maintain the quality found at the easier to produce smaller sizes. If Samsung manage to produce the 88 without any perceptible drop in quality from the 65 then we should probably say hats off to them until someone can produce something better. I agree the price is high but let's face it an 88 OLED or ZD9 would likely be a lot more, if indeed one is ever made.
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post #65 of 77 Old 08-11-2017, 05:18 AM
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So talks about nits, nats, falds, edges, size, rtings etc is all very well and good like, and I'm pretty much all out of popcorn right now, but I'm kind of surprised that - even with the idea of everything being obsolete after a while - that the lack of DV support hasn't raised more in the way of collective eye brows on here. And HLG and any other new or newish type update.

I spent some time of the Samsung website last night, looking at this unit, and I didn't see much in the way of anything around HDR at all.

I am surprised that any TV maker, regardless of size, isn't rushing to be in a position to categorically state that its new whizz bang TV can be updated to the new format by way of firmware etc.

For me, ignoring the cost, if I were able to buy this, I would pass on it for the very fact that it can't do DV, that DV has been known about for long enough for it to be a defacto inclusion at some point and because if I drop 20k large for it, it had better be able to do everything that is known about at this point. Video codecs, audio codecs, HDMI specs, every damn thing.

For the record, my Denon AVR can't pass DV right now. Denon is on record, with a somewhat wishy washy date I do admit, as stating that there will be a firmware update that will allow for most/all of the 2016 line up to be able to pass DV. Even though they will be in the 2017 model range at that point. And I promise you, the AVR wasn't 20k...

Anyway, back to the mud slinging about edge lit vs FALD...

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post #66 of 77 Old 08-11-2017, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Chill View Post
Moving and especially hanging an 88" TV takes a minimum of 3 people. It's no small job and there's a lot to lose if someone slips up. Better left to insured professionals.
My cousin and I installed my 88KS9810 though I agree a third person would've been helpful a couple of times.

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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
The back lighting system being worse than other brands isn't subjective, it's fact. Superior backlight systems: LG OLED, sony oled, 940e, Z9D, Panasonic oled, Vizio P series, ks9800, maybe even the sony edge lit 930e as well, maybe even the 900e too.

I understand there aren't many 88" options, but at this point I'd try to snag an 88" ks9800 for half the price online somewhere.
That's more or less what I did and couldn't be happier.

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Originally Posted by Keithian View Post
What is embarrassing is anyone who thinks the shoot out is at all representative of the average conditions of what is in a person's home or what they would perceive. Even the shoot out organizers have stated that the purpose of the shoot out is to measure against a specific reference. It has zero reliability of what a consumer should judge his/her own purchase on. It has nothing to do with what average consumers watch. When you watch a movie, do you go by what every critic thinks? If I did that I would have missed quite a number of great movies.
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post #67 of 77 Old 08-11-2017, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/qled-q9f-q9


Rtings rated the dimming performance a 2.0 out of 10. a 2.0 lol


Also. you can find any review online from professionals that have had negative things to say about the backlighting on the Q9. From flatpanelHD, Forbes, HDGuru. Granted those reviews were for the 65", but there is no indication whatsoever that the 88" version will have an advanced backlight system over the smaller version.

I'm not really trying to bash the tv. But as a previus owner of edge lit Samsung tvs (F7100, HU8550, HU9000), and then Samsung FALD tvs (JS9500, KS9800), it blows my mind and is a slap in the face to go back to edge lit tvs and still charge a giant premium.
The problem is that the performance of the Q9F isn't nearly as bad as a "2.0" score for local dimming from rtings would imply. Is it a limiting factor? Yes, depending on content and usage. Is it a deal-breaker? No. Not at all, except for a few folks here on AVS Forum. Indeed, for most people, the way it handles letterbox bars is the only local dimming performance they care about, and it does that very well.

The price? It's high. But here we're talking 88" of great TV, and the per-inch premium above 65" in OLED land is pretty steep.

I'm right there with any reviewer who notes that a QLED with a FALD backlight would improve performance in certain specific scenes.

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Originally Posted by Blitzdog View Post
Hey cool. Rtings has been called out for flawed Q9F reviews on this site and HDGuru cred is also suspect. Personal opinion, I'll take imagic's hands-on, real world advice with respect to the 65".
Back to my original question. Proof with respect to your 88" claims? Haven't seen one reviewed anywhere so your comments are supposition, nonsense and non-factually misleading.
I have only ever questioned rtings.com's conclusion when it came to the peak brightness capability of the Q7F (two of them!). And that led down an interesting path.

Rtings review of the 65" Q9F is actually very positive. It gets a 7.9 total rating because it gets dinged for movies. But highlights include how it displays TV shows, plus regular gaming and HDR gaming. I'd duly note that I was able to get the Q9F to look essentially perfect with BT.709 (i.e. SDR movies).

The 2.0 rating for local dimming is the site's way of saying that edgelit will never perform like well-implemented FALD, which is a fact and not worth debate. But taking that rating out of context for the sake of Internet forum brand-bashing? Par for the course and disappointing.

I'm not fond of making judgments on the 88" Q9F's picture quality based on that one rtings spec. It's daft.

What's with the negative mob mentality about this TV? I dunno, maybe it's peer pressure? Or perhaps because there is no such thing as an 88" OLED.
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post #68 of 77 Old 08-11-2017, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The problem is that the performance of the Q9F isn't nearly as bad as a "2.0" score for local dimming from rtings would imply. Is it a limiting factor? Yes, depending on content and usage. Is it a deal-breaker? No. Not at all, except for a few folks here on AVS Forum. Indeed, for most people, the way it handles letterbox bars is the only local dimming performance they care about, and it does that very well.

The price? It's high. But here we're talking 88" of great TV, and the per-inch premium above 65" in OLED land is pretty steep.

I'm right there with any reviewer who notes that a QLED with a FALD backlight would improve performance in certain specific scenes.



I have only ever questioned rtings.com's conclusion when it came to the peak brightness capability of the Q7F (two of them!). And that led down an interesting path.

Rtings review of the 65" Q9F is actually very positive. It gets a 7.9 total rating because it gets dinged for movies. But highlights include how it displays TV shows, plus regular gaming and HDR gaming. I'd duly note that I was able to get the Q9F to look essentially perfect with BT.709 (i.e. SDR movies).

The 2.0 rating for local dimming is the site's way of saying that edgelit will never perform like well-implemented FALD, which is a fact and not worth debate. But taking that rating out of context for the sake of Internet forum brand-bashing? Par for the course and disappointing.

I'm not fond of making judgments on the 88" Q9F's picture quality based on that one rtings spec. It's daft.

What's with the negative mob mentality about this TV? I dunno, maybe it's peer pressure? Or perhaps because there is no such thing as an 88" OLED.
That was the point I was trying to make. Though a TV might have a better performance when using FALD, that one implementation aspect shouldn't default the TV to worse status without looking at the individual buyers use case and priorities. It will be interesting next year to see if Samsung moves more in this direction because the repetitive bashing for the sake of bashing is tiresome. There is a reason there is a saying that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
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post #69 of 77 Old 08-11-2017, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Keithian View Post
I already have a posted in this thread several examples of professional reviews (and I could post more) that gave the TV very high marks and focusing on dimming alone is not what buying a TV is about. The shoot out is not at all representative of the average conditions of what is in a person's home or what they would perceive and Rtings isn't the bible of what every brain should follow (not to mention I trust Consumer Reports more). Even the shoot out organizers have stated that the purpose of the shoot out is to measure against a specific reference against very specific criteria. It has zero reliability of what a consumer should judge his/her own purchase on. It has nothing to do with what average consumers watch. It didn't test the TVs in the average often brighter conditions with windows that most people have. Nor did the shoot out test the size that many more people are leaning toward. When you watch a movie, do you go by what every critic thinks...or the ones that you want to focus on? When you buy a phone, do you go by which ones had the best test results, or the experience that just works for you for what you look for? If I did that I would have missed quite a number of great movies and regretted quite a number of phone pruchases.

I agree with you that there are better TVs (especially when price is a factor), but again, this thread is about the 88" Q9, it has a purpose for a certain audience, you just mentioned several of them with regard to the glare, colors, bright room performance....to some like me..that is more important than contrast in dark conditions which is a minor part of my viewing. I don't care about viewing angles because 99% of the time I'm centered in front of my TV and my non technical guests couldn't care less and would be happy watching a TV from 2000. I also don't want to worry about Burn In and fiddle with settings or worry about did I forget to unpause my DVR in fear of being a victim of Burn In even if the possibility is only a 10% chance. When someone buys a 8K+ device, they should be able to watch whatever they want as often as they want including news channels with static logos or games with static HUDs. Like I said, everyone has different priorities. If I wanted a 75-77", I'm not so sure I would be debating you on this topic.

If someone has done the research in person, then there is nothing to be fooled by. I will say that you are absolutely correct, there will be something by Samsung better next year. Guess what? There will also be something better by LG next year....and by Sony next year....and the year after that...and the year after that....zzzzzzzzzz.


With regards to the shootout, I actually spent quite a bit of time defending the Q9s strengths which I believe were not fully utilized in the shootout this year, or really in previous years either. But what the shootout does show is which tvs are built without cutting corners. Make no doubt about it, Samsung cut major corners by dropping FALD in their flagship tv, yet sony Has 2 FALD tvs and an oled. All the reviews that have mentioned the positives about the Q9, also mention how disappointing the backlight system is and that Samsung went backwards this year in that aspect. Dropping 20k on the 88" version seems like highway robbery since Samsung knowingly cut corners on the tv but didn't lower the prices. Again, the 88" Q9 is not worth double the price over the 88" KS9800. Samsungs premium tv sales have taken a major hit since Sony and LG started stepping up in the consistency of blacks department. Now over in Europe, there are many different OLED brands that aren't available in the USA, which again people will choose those off brand oleds over Samsungs corner cut "premium" tvs. Samsung needs to change its strategy fast. 90" oleds are a few years away. and I'm with most of the people in this thread, I will NOT buy an oled because of burn in. the reports have been piling up over the past few months. That's why I want an LED that can get as close as possible to perfect blacks. The Q9 was a step backwards theres, but next year the QDCF may change the game.

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post #70 of 77 Old 08-11-2017, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The problem is that the performance of the Q9F isn't nearly as bad as a "2.0" score for local dimming from rtings would imply. Is it a limiting factor? Yes, depending on content and usage. Is it a deal-breaker? No. Not at all, except for a few folks here on AVS Forum. Indeed, for most people, the way it handles letterbox bars is the only local dimming performance they care about, and it does that very well.

The price? It's high. But here we're talking 88" of great TV, and the per-inch premium above 65" in OLED land is pretty steep.

I'm right there with any reviewer who notes that a QLED with a FALD backlight would improve performance in certain specific scenes.



I have only ever questioned rtings.com's conclusion when it came to the peak brightness capability of the Q7F (two of them!). And that led down an interesting path.

Rtings review of the 65" Q9F is actually very positive. It gets a 7.9 total rating because it gets dinged for movies. But highlights include how it displays TV shows, plus regular gaming and HDR gaming. I'd duly note that I was able to get the Q9F to look essentially perfect with BT.709 (i.e. SDR movies).

The 2.0 rating for local dimming is the site's way of saying that edgelit will never perform like well-implemented FALD, which is a fact and not worth debate. But taking that rating out of context for the sake of Internet forum brand-bashing? Par for the course and disappointing.

I'm not fond of making judgments on the 88" Q9F's picture quality based on that one rtings spec. It's daft.

What's with the negative mob mentality about this TV? I dunno, maybe it's peer pressure? Or perhaps because there is no such thing as an 88" OLED.


Of course its not a "2.0" but I thought it was quite funny they rated it so low. I believe their test uses smart led high and a white dot going all over the screen, so I'm surprised it bombed that particular test. I haven't tested it, but id say its probably a 5.0 because it can dim the letterbox bars pretty good. Not a huge fan of Rtings myself though. But I can post nearly every review of the tv that says the dimming performance does not equal the price of the tv. Most people spending premium cash DO care about the black levels. If not they can go for a Q7. ( I understand there is no Q7 88", so id either look at other options or wait a few months for new models).

I'm curious just how atrocious that 88" edge lit will look with any blacks or in a dim room. If the tv struggles to send light from 1 side of the tv to the middle on a 65, it would be even worse on an 88" tv trying to send it even farther, get what I'm saying? unless a special measure was put in place to prevent said disaster form happening. For that price, you should get respectable performance in ALL areas, not just during the day with your opens open and all the lights on.

Lets just hope that Quantum Dot Color Filters can save the day like many say it can based on the science of how it actually works.
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post #71 of 77 Old 08-12-2017, 12:49 AM
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"Again, the 88" Q9 is not worth double the price over the 88" KS9800.
You're preaching to the choir. A couple of us have said a few times already that it is priced way too high. The OP suggested 15K to be in line with the 77" LG. I personally think it should be about 12K. Even with an Edge Lit to get the 88" and even knowing it isn't the best of the best (though I think its an excellent TV due to the strengths it does have), there is about a 75% chance I would get it with a major price drop somewhere around 12K-14K (including tax) or so because of the viewing conditions I already described. That may never happen, which means I may be patient and wait to see what comes in 2018 and hope this size TV becomes just a bit more popular across brands so that prices start to drop. Perhaps Samsung demand at this size versus suppy will force that. I can only hope.

Just for my own info as I'm not familiar with the KS9800 88", where are you seeing that listed for 1/2 the price of the 88" Q9? I don't see it listed anywhere, including on Samsung's site, and the list price when that was announced according to my latest google search shows it listed for 20K?

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post #72 of 77 Old 08-12-2017, 03:47 AM
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did rting drop the ratings on the led tvs? The q9 scored if I believed correctly around 4/10 in the local dimming and now its a 2. When I checked the other tvs like the zd9 it went from a 9.5/10 to a 8.5/10.
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post #73 of 77 Old 08-12-2017, 09:12 AM
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My cousin and I installed my 88KS9810 though I agree a third person would've been helpful a couple of times.
Big an awkward........lol. 85" Panasonic plasma are 300 pounds, 3-4 guys are a must..
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post #74 of 77 Old 08-12-2017, 10:29 AM
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did rting drop the ratings on the led tvs? The q9 scored if I believed correctly around 4/10 in the local dimming and now its a 2. When I checked the other tvs like the zd9 it went from a 9.5/10 to a 8.5/10.

Maybe they are including HDR local dimming performance. I think they should rate HDR and SDR local dimming performance individually.


I don't know how the Q9 local dimming performs with SDR content ,I haven't seen the back light performance in person , but I don't think that is a 2 with SDR.I would be surprised if perform that bad.

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post #75 of 77 Old 08-14-2017, 02:11 PM
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Proof?


Any professional review that actually tests TV's performance will tell you this. Take your pick. Garbage local dimming for a premium TV, subpar black levels and contrast for a so called flagship TV. Which is a shame since it has the largest colour volume of any TV, it still ends up in last place if you compare it to other flagship TVs.
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post #76 of 77 Old 08-14-2017, 02:18 PM
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I'm not saying its a bad TV, on the contrary.. its an absolutely superb TV overall and it better display than what 99% of my friends have so I'd be absolutely ecstatic if one of my friends bought one and invited me over for a movie.

But its not as good as the Panasonic EZ1000 or EZ900

Or the LG W7/G7/E7/C7/B7

or a Sony A1

or a Sony ZD9

or an LG G6/E6/C6/B6

or a Sony X94E

or a Philips POS901F

A solid 16th best consumer display on the market in my opinion.
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post #77 of 77 Old 08-15-2017, 08:09 AM
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You're preaching to the choir. A couple of us have said a few times already that it is priced way too high. The OP suggested 15K to be in line with the 77" LG. I personally think it should be about 12K. Even with an Edge Lit to get the 88" and even knowing it isn't the best of the best (though I think its an excellent TV due to the strengths it does have), there is about a 75% chance I would get it with a major price drop somewhere around 12K-14K (including tax) or so because of the viewing conditions I already described. That may never happen, which means I may be patient and wait to see what comes in 2018 and hope this size TV becomes just a bit more popular across brands so that prices start to drop. Perhaps Samsung demand at this size versus suppy will force that. I can only hope.

Just for my own info as I'm not familiar with the KS9800 88", where are you seeing that listed for 1/2 the price of the 88" Q9? I don't see it listed anywhere, including on Samsung's site, and the list price when that was announced according to my latest google search shows it listed for 20K?
They were never officially that price. In fact, to my knowledge, the MSRP was always $20k, same as its successor the Q9. However, right after the Q9s were announced, the 88KS9810 could be had in the $15-16k range from the internet sellers, and (much) less if you were patient and diligent. I checked regularly and snagged one on eBay new in box for a little over 1/2 the MSRP and am extremely happy with the purchase. Unfortunately, much of the supply in the field has dried up and thus far remaining units have crept back into the mid/high $17s. It's possible that those will slip to $11-12k as CES approaches at which point the model would be nearly 2 years old. Of course by that point you'll want the QDCF version out in 2018

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