Samsung Demos CalMan AutoCal for QLED at CEDIA 2017 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 32 Old 09-12-2017, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Samsung Demos CalMan AutoCal for QLED at CEDIA 2017

Samsung showed how CalMan is able leverage its AutoCal functionality to calibrate 2017 QLED TVs.

Long story short... AutoCal for compatible Samsung TVs such as its 2017 QLEDs, and other models featuring a serial port labeled "Ex Link" are compatible with CalMan's AutoCal function.

With AutoCal, calibrations take less time and are more consistent than using a purely manual approach.

Click the following link to read more: Samsung Shows AutoCal for QLED HDR TVs at CEDIA 2017


Here's a video of SpectraCal's Tyler Pruitt explaining some benefits of AutoCal for QLED
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post #2 of 32 Old 09-12-2017, 02:08 PM
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The link you provided takes me to a forum discussion not associated with yours.

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post #3 of 32 Old 09-12-2017, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
The link you provided takes me to a forum discussion not associated with yours.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Seems to work fine for me.

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post #4 of 32 Old 09-13-2017, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Seems to work fine for me.
Every time I click on it, it takes me here.
Is there such thing as an "interlocking, two-piece" RPTV???

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post #5 of 32 Old 09-13-2017, 08:04 AM
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can you rent one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Samsung showed how CalMan is able leverage its AutoCal functionality to calibrate 2017 QLED TVs.

Long story short... AutoCal for compatible Samsung TVs such as its 2017 QLEDs, and other models featuring a serial port-equipped One Connect box, are compatible with CalMan's AutoCal function.

With AutoCal, calibrations take less time and are more consistent than using a purely manual approach.

Click the following link to read more: Samsung Shows AutoCal for QLED HDR TVs at CEDIA 2017


https://youtu.be/urGqRtUwm24
Here's a video of SpectraCal's Tyler Pruitt explaining some benefits of AutoCal for QLED
awesome article! i'd love to use this with my Samsung KS9800 series model but the price is so steep on their website. Is there a way to rent one of these?
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post #6 of 32 Old 09-13-2017, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
Every time I click on it, it takes me here.
Is there such thing as an "interlocking, two-piece" RPTV???

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
That is weird, I do not have an explanation.

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post #7 of 32 Old 09-13-2017, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tvwatcher12345 View Post
awesome article! i'd love to use this with my Samsung KS9800 series model but the price is so steep on their website. Is there a way to rent one of these?
To rent a kit? I'd rent it along with a calibrator i.e. hire someone to do it for you. But, the KS9800 does not have a serial input, so AutoCal won't work on it. On the other hand, white balance is 10-point not 20-point on the KS9800 so it's not as unwieldy to work with when using the remote.

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post #8 of 32 Old 09-13-2017, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
To rent a kit? I'd rent it along with a calibrator i.e. hire someone to do it for you. But, the KS9800 does not have a serial input, so AutoCal won't work on it. On the other hand, white balance is 10-point not 20-point on the KS9800 so it's not as unwieldy to work with when using the remote.
It has USB. Universal Serial Bus, that's even better than a simple serial input in my book. And PCs have USB-serial adaptors.

Six years ago, they did it with Ethernet. All the TVs have Ethernet, do they not...


Please would you ask them why they can't get Samsung to implement a proper sockets Ethernet interface instead of serial ports... and could you ask them/Samsung to do an Ethernet interface so that it would work on every TV?

It's so frustrating to see that on the face of it, Samsung has gone out of their way to offer SpectraCal an interface that only half their range can utilise. Do we need to start a petition?

[Edit: I wrote the above not realising that we can use the ex-link port on the back of our TVs]

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post #9 of 32 Old 09-13-2017, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
It has USB. Universal Serial Bus, that's even better than a simple serial input in my book. And PCs have USB-serial adaptors.

Why has SpectraCAL gone back into the dark ages?

Six years ago, they did it with Ethernet. All the TVs have Ethernet, do they not...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_ZvP5yZhac

Please would you ask them why they can't get Samsung to implement a proper sockets Ethernet interface instead of prehistoric serial ports... and could you ask them/Samsung to do an Ethernet interface so that it would work on every TV?

It's so frustrating to see that on the face of it, Samsung has gone out of their way to offer SpectraCal an interface that only half their range can utilise. Do we need to start a petition?
I put in a request for network connectivity for CalMan already. Still, I'll take it, however it's made available. But hey, I agree, USB would be nice too.
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post #10 of 32 Old 09-13-2017, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I put in a request for network connectivity for CalMan already. Still, I'll take it, however it's made available. But hey, I agree, USB would be nice too.
Thanks. Anything I can help with that campaign just say the word.

EDIT: apparently it uses the ex-link serial port which is on the back of the TV, not the One Connect Box. So all is good! Thanks to @WiFi-Spy for the clarification.

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post #11 of 32 Old 09-13-2017, 11:27 AM
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For that AutoCAL you need to buy the CalMAN Home Enthusiast AutoCal Bundle for Samsung - with SpectraCal C6 HDR2000 & VideoForge PRO Bundle which cost $2.5K. (for the Samsung TV models which are supported.)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
For that AutoCAL you need to buy the CalMAN Home Enthusiast AutoCal Bundle for Samsung - with SpectraCal C6 HDR2000 & VideoForge PRO Bundle which cost $2.5K. (for the Samsung TV models which are supported.)
Not true. Anyone with Home Enthusiast $399 + any meter + and pattern generator can do AutoCal on the Samsung TVs.
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post #13 of 32 Old 09-14-2017, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Not true. Anyone with Home Enthusiast $399 + any meter + and pattern generator can do AutoCal on the Samsung TVs.
For SDR I agree, for HDR you need the bundle.

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post #14 of 32 Old 09-14-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Not true. Anyone with Home Enthusiast $399 + any meter + and pattern generator can do AutoCal on the Samsung TVs.
Have you checked the SpectaCAL site? It says starting from 2.5K with pictures showing the videoforge: http://calman.spectracal.com/autocal.html

It's better to add the info that for SDR AutCAL the requirements are less, but for HDR AutoCAL you need the bundle.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Have you checked the SpectaCAL site? It says starting from 2.5K with pictures showing the videoforge: http://calman.spectracal.com/autocal.html

It's better to add the info that for SDR AutCAL the requirements are less, but for HDR AutoCAL you need the bundle.
Forgive me if this is a silly question, but why must the pattern generator be a hardware device? It's just something that makes pixels to send down a HDMI cable (fundamentally) so why can't it be purely done in software on a PC which has a HDR graphics card, sending a HDR image down the HDMI cable to the TV? Surely that is the future. Then CalMAN can generate the patterns that it's going to measure itself.

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post #16 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Forgive me if this is a silly question, but why must the pattern generator be a hardware device? It's just something that makes pixels to send down a HDMI cable (fundamentally) so why can't it be purely done in software on a PC which has a HDR graphics card, sending a HDR image down the HDMI cable to the TV? Surely that is the future. Then CalMAN can generate the patterns that it's going to measure itself.
The problem is that any video card installed to a specific system, it's unknown if it can output bit-perfect 8-bit values, to used it as pattern generator, because in HDR mode even 1 single bit mismatch...it will be about 40-50nits difference to some values. There a lot of stuff that can't allow even a bit perfect VGA output to work as bit-perfect for patch generation, an ICC loaded table, a VCGT (Video Card Gamma Table), a driver update, all these can affect the output so to be sure you have to measure the digital levels of your VGA with signal analyser in bit-level, like Accupel 6000 or DVDO AV Lab TPG to see if the levels at least for correct in grayscale and using random color measurements. Also having tested that it's accurate one day, it's unknown if it will be next moths after windows/drivers updates also.

This is why you need a known reference device which all the times can generate bit-perfect values.

Intel or NVidia with proper configuration may have accurate output while AMD's have less possibilities.

Also when you want to calibrate for HDR, you have to send specific metadata, not only enable HDR using zeros to all metadata info. You need to send Mastered display used details (white point/primaries, max/min luminance) and Content Metadata info (the default ones which is MaxCLL 1000 and MaxFALL 400) and according to all these details to generate a metadata infoframe (for example: 87:01:1a:74:02:00:c2:33:c4:86:4c:1d:b8:0b:d0:84:80 :3e:13:3d:42:40:e8:03:32:00:e8:03:90:01) and AVI infoframe (for example: 00:E8:64:5D:00), all these custom options are not available to windows selection when you enable the HDR mode from a HDR capable VGA for example.

But today it's been release a beta for madVR which have support for HDR custom metadata infoframe insertion, when CalMAN add this support obviously (not it's supporting madVR for SDR): MadVR - ArgyllCMS

But someone with a bit level analyses has to check if the output is correct, if the above method will be used.
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post #17 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The problem is that any video card installed to a specific system, it's unknown if it can output bit-perfect 8-bit values, to used it as pattern generator, because in HDR mode even 1 single bit mismatch...it will be about 40-50nits difference to some values. There a lot of stuff that can't allow even a bit perfect VGA output to work as bit-perfect for patch generation, an ICC loaded table, a VCGT (Video Card Gamma Table), a driver update, all these can affect the output so to be sure you have to measure the digital levels of your VGA with signal analyser in bit-level, like Accupel 6000 or DVDO AV Lab TPG to see if the levels at least for correct in grayscale and using random color measurements. Also having tested that it's accurate one day, it's unknown if it will be next moths after windows/drivers updates also.

This is why you need a known reference device which all the times can generate bit-perfect values.
ok, thanks. I understand that. How about test patterns on a USB stick then? Presumably just a bit laborious to have to keep swapping to the file which CalMAN needs for any given time.

I can imagine when it's doing 10-point white balance and checking and re-checking all the different grey levels, it would keep stopping and waiting for you to load the 20% file, then the 50% file, etc. I've seen videos where it says at the end it took 60+ readings in two minutes. If those 60+ readings were never of the same %age grey level twice.... ? Is that the "gotcha" to not having a hardware signal generator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Also when you want to calibrate for HDR, you have to send specific metadata, not only enable HDR using zeros to all metadata info. You need to send Mastered display used details (white point/primaries, max/min luminance) and Content Metadata info (the default ones which is MaxCLL 1000 and MaxFALL 400) and according to all these details to generate a metadata infoframe (for example: 87:01:1a:74:02:00:c2:33:c4:86:4c:1d:b8:0b:d0:84:80 :3e:13:3d:42:40:e8:03:32:00:e8:03:90:01) and AVI infoframe (for example: 00:E8:64:5D:00), all these custom options are not available to windows selection when you enable the HDR mode from a HDR capable VGA for example.
ok but again, in theory, could you have a selection of files on a USB stick which had the correct metadata in them, and then play the one you need? And has anyone created them? Is that what the 1,300+ UHD|HDR-10 Test Patterns disc is?

@imagic , you said in the article you will be re-visiting the Samsung Q9F. Would you be able to also re-visit your KS9800 as well? Also there is a mistake in the article - "As long at the TV is a model that comes with a One Connect box that features a serial port, you will be able to use AutoCal with the TV." . We 2016 owners can use it because there's a port on the back of the TV, as opposed to the on the One Connect Box. Also if you could mention it's the port marked "Ex-link", that would also be cool.

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post #18 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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ok, thanks. I understand that. How about test patterns on a USB stick then? Presumably just a bit laborious to have to keep swapping to the file which CalMAN needs for any given time.

I can imagine when it's doing 10-point white balance and checking and re-checking all the different grey levels, it would keep stopping and waiting for you to load the 20% file, then the 50% file, etc. I've seen videos where it says at the end it took 60+ readings in two minutes. If those 60+ readings were never of the same %age grey level twice.... ? Is that the gotcha to not having a hardware signal generator?



ok but again, in theory, could you have a selection of files on a USB stick which had the correct metadata in them, and then play the one you need? And has anyone created them? Is that what the 1,300+ UHD|HDR-10 Test Patterns disc is?

@imagic , you said in the article you will be re-visiting the Samsung Q9F. Would you be able to also re-visit your KS9800 as well? Also there is a mistake in the article - "As long at the TV is a model that comes with a One Connect box that features a serial port, you will be able to use AutoCal with the TV." . We can use it because there's a port on the back of the TV, not on the One Connect Box. Also if you could mention it's the port marked "Ex-link", that would also be cool.
Dang, you are right! I can surely see if it works with the KS9800. Today. Not sure why I did not look for that. Actually, just give me 15 minutes... and also thank you.
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post #19 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 08:10 AM
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Dang, you are right! I can surely see if it works with the KS9800. Today. Not sure why I did not look for that. Actually, just give me 15 minutes... and also thank you.
You're very welcome! I'm assuming they have moved that ex-link port to the One Connect Box for the 2017 models. But it's on the back for our 2016 models

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post #20 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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You're very welcome! I'm assuming they have moved that ex-link port to the One Connect Box for the 2017 models. But it's on the back for our 2016 models
Calman can see the KS9800 but direct display control is not functioning, so I'm guessing there's a software issue. So my guess is (for now anyhow) only 2017 Samsungs with serial ports are gonna work, but that it at least extends beyond QLEDs.
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post #21 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 08:50 AM
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Calman can see the KS9800 but direct display control is not functioning, so I'm guessing there's a software issue. So my guess is (for now anyhow) only 2017 Samsungs with serial ports are gonna work, but that it at least extends beyond QLEDs.
Hmm. Oh. But that's not what @WiFi-Spy said in samsung ks8000 Calibration and samsung ks8000 Calibration. If you have this week's new beta it's supposed to work?

"we are adding Direct serial control and SDR autoCAL for 2016 Samsung SUHD models to CalMAN. We will be releasing a beta in the next day or two in our forums. You will need a usb serial adapter and rs232 to 3.5mm cable to plug into the TV (ex-link port)."
"Your KS model has the Ex-link port on the TV itself most likely. The one we have here is the KS9000, but I have tested it on a friends KS8000."

So it's definitely supposed to be supported for 2016 models. Unless his friend's KS8000 and the KS9000 in the office had secret firmware which we haven't got yet?

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HDMI-4K modes | 4K chroma test | Samsung 2016 TVs | Dolby & DTS core+outer audio tracks on (UHD) Blu-Rays
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post #22 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Hmm. Oh. But that's not what @WiFi-Spy said in samsung ks8000 Calibration and samsung ks8000 Calibration. If you have this week's new beta it's supposed to work?

"we are adding Direct serial control and SDR autoCAL for 2016 Samsung SUHD models to CalMAN. We will be releasing a beta in the next day or two in our forums. You will need a usb serial adapter and rs232 to 3.5mm cable to plug into the TV (ex-link port)."
"Your KS model has the Ex-link port on the TV itself most likely. The one we have here is the KS9000, but I have tested it on a friends KS8000."

So it's definitely supposed to be supported for 2016 models. Unless his friend's KS8000 and the KS9000 in the office had secret firmware which we haven't got yet?
Well check it out, I'm super busy so I depend on folks like you to keep me up to date. I'm not running the beta, which is why that's not working for me. But look, this is very exciting, so I'll pursue it. Keep me posted because... yeah. Awesome. Looking forward to it, and as soon as I confirm it's all working I'll write it up, too.
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post #23 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Well check it out, I'm super busy so I depend on folks like you to keep me up to date. I'm not running the beta, which is why that's not working for me. But look, this is very exciting, so I'll pursue it. Keep me posted because... yeah. Awesome. Looking forward to it, and as soon as I confirm it's all working I'll write it up, too.
Awesome, glad there's an explanation that makes sense.

I am irrationally excited about this. Might buy a meter and the software!

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HDMI-4K modes | 4K chroma test | Samsung 2016 TVs | Dolby & DTS core+outer audio tracks on (UHD) Blu-Rays
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post #24 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Awesome, glad there's an explanation that makes sense.

I am irrationally excited about this. Might buy a meter and the software!
Don't forget the TPG.

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post #25 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 09:29 AM
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Don't forget the TPG.
Well I've already checked I can use a disc such as AVSHD. But it seems that http://calman.spectracal.com/mobileforge.html with a Chromecast would be more flexible (controllable by calman) and massively cheaper than a meter. Is it still supported?
[edit: looks like running on an amazon fire stick is better]

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HDMI-4K modes | 4K chroma test | Samsung 2016 TVs | Dolby & DTS core+outer audio tracks on (UHD) Blu-Rays

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post #26 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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KS9800 SDR AutoCal using the CalMan beta was successful. Total deltaE of 1.86, gamma 2.37 (target 2.4) on the very first try. Surely can do better, but already very good. Took a few minutes including CMS and 10-point with a Colorimetry Research CR-100.
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post #27 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
ok, thanks. I understand that. How about test patterns on a USB stick then? Presumably just a bit laborious to have to keep swapping to the file which CalMAN needs for any given time.

I can imagine when it's doing 10-point white balance and checking and re-checking all the different grey levels, it would keep stopping and waiting for you to load the 20% file, then the 50% file, etc. I've seen videos where it says at the end it took 60+ readings in two minutes. If those 60+ readings were never of the same %age grey level twice.... ? Is that the "gotcha" to not having a hardware signal generator?

ok but again, in theory, could you have a selection of files on a USB stick which had the correct metadata in them, and then play the one you need? And has anyone created them? Is that what the 1,300+ UHD|HDR-10 Test Patterns disc is?
Samsung's QLED have 20-Point Grayscale.

The thread here is related with AutoCAL, so something you can do without any user prompt once the AutoCAL procedure will start.

If we move the subject to what you can do manually, you can use patterns from USB; (and set CalMAN to ask you for confirmation before you display specific patch it will request, but I haven't checked if CalMAN can pause in AutoCAL mode for this, ask SpectraCAL for that detail)...it may work for HDR mode with HDR media files...if you see that when you are changing the files....the TV will not go back to SDR and then back to HDR mode....this may affect or slow down the whole operation more...I haven't checked if this happening with Samsung's media player.
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post #28 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
.it may work for HDR mode with HDR media files...if you see that when you are changing the files....the TV will not go back to SDR and then back to HDR mode....this may affect or slow down the whole operation more...I haven't checked if this happening with Samsung's media player.
Thanks. I have checked. Yes, the Samsung media players (both in the TV and in the KS8500 for that matter) do obey the metadata and switch to HDR mode when playing back HDR USB clips.
I can imagine it may be cumbersome, continually changing the patterns under Autocal mode (probably more "guided cal") - I'm just trying to come up with an affordable solution yet one which has the benefits of Autocal's algorithm.

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post #29 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Thanks. I have checked. Yes, the Samsung media players (both in the TV and in the KS8500 for that matter) do obey the metadata and switch to HDR mode when playing back HDR USB clips.
See when you change to a different file, if it will go back to SDR and then again to HDR mode, see if this affecting the readings, I haven't checked.

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post #30 of 32 Old 09-15-2017, 03:42 PM
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See when you change to a different file, if it will go back to SDR and then again to HDR mode, see if this affecting the readings, I haven't checked.
Ah, I see. I have nothing with which to measure this yet.
I could imagine you would have to wait for the TV to settle down if you did momentarily drop into SDR mode before resuming HDR mode.

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