Handy review: LCD vs. plasma - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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With the endless arguments about LCD vs. plasma in this forum, it was nice to see this recent review at the Ultimate AV magazine website:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpan...6viziofaceoff/

The reviewer did a straightforward comparo between an LCD and plasma, each the same size (42") and brand (Vizio). His conclusions weren't surprising (LCD was brighter and slightly better resolution; plasma was much better with blacks). But at least this was a neutral and well-controlled review, IMO.

At the very least, the next time somebody asks me this question, I can save myself a lot of time and link to this review.
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post #2 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 07:29 AM
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Great find and will alleviate much of the "LCD vs Plasma" war threads, as we can simply post a link and (most) of the differences are addressed.

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post #3 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 08:16 AM
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The above compares and rates some of the newer 32"- 42" LCD's and plasma's.

I was a noob once and scoured the forum for advice by just reading. More helpful than just asking for advice.

Their website charges for the download and I don't know how to post a link.

Some of our members have the patience of "Job" in responding.

Would it make any sense to have a forum category "LCD vs. Plasma" that would allow us to dump reference articles/material in same.

Kind of like "BruZZi's FAQ"? Just an errant thought.
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post #4 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theueck View Post

Would it make any sense to have a forum category "LCD vs. Plasma" that would allow us to dump reference articles/material in same.

Kind of like "BruZZi's FAQ"? Just an errant thought.

I posted a Poll a few days ago about maybe having an LCD vs Plasma sticky master thread but there doesn't seem to be much interest . . . .

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=730459

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post #5 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 10:00 AM
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I understand the objective of the reviewer here but really all it does is show that Vizio makes much better plasmas than they do LCD's. The new LCD's from Sony and Sharp blow away any LCD Vizio puts its name on...or for that matter any plasma they make either.
I think the Vizio plasmas are a lot closer to the benchmark plasmas(pioneer, panasonic)
than the Vizio LCD's are to the benchmark LCD(Sony, Sharp)
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post #6 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 10:16 AM
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However no matter how good the LCD is, the blacks are still quite inferior to plasmas.
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post #7 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

However no matter how good the LCD is, the blacks are still quite inferior to plasmas.

Yeah I know and LCD's have much better whites, brighter picture, no glare or burn in etc etc etc. User preference......Ill take the tv I can see in the daytime without being washed out.
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post #8 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 05:22 PM
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"However no matter how good the LCD is, the blacks are still quite inferior to plasmas."

This depends on the ambient brightness. Above a certain brightness, LCD has better black because it reflects very little ambient light, while plasma phosphors do. Below a certain ambient light level, plasma has better black for the same reason.

There is a level of ambient light at which a particular plasma will have identical black level to a particular LCD. For any two models side-by-side, this is called their Black Crossing. It is called this because if we superimpose their respective black level vs. ambient light graphs, the lines cross at a particular ambient light level. Specular reflection is not counted for this particular model, only phosphor reflectance.

At ambient light levels above the Black Crossing, the LCD will have better blacks; at levels below, the plasma will deliver the darkest blacks.

This Black Crossing is, for most (if not all) model combinations, well below the intensity of light in an average viewing environment.

Since market preference will form based on at best the average home viewing environment and at worst average purchase-location brightness (in-store decision), LCD has the black-level advantage.

---

An interesting experiment is to put an LCD and plasma display side by side, and send them both a fullscreen black signal. Then dim the ambient lighting until their blacks merge into identical inky pools. Congratulations, for you have now found their Black Crossing!
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post #9 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 05:55 PM
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LOL, will it ever end??? It started a Plasma vs. LCD debate... I love it....

Justin

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post #10 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

"However no matter how good the LCD is, the blacks are still quite inferior to plasmas."

This depends on the ambient brightness. Above a certain brightness, LCD has better black because it reflects very little ambient light, while plasma phosphors do. Below a certain ambient light level, plasma has better black for the same reason.

There is a level of ambient light at which a particular plasma will have identical black level to a particular LCD. For any two models side-by-side, this is called their Black Crossing. It is called this because if we superimpose their respective black level vs. ambient light graphs, the lines cross at a particular ambient light level. Specular reflection is not counted for this particular model, only phosphor reflectance.

At ambient light levels above the Black Crossing, the LCD will have better blacks; at levels below, the plasma will deliver the darkest blacks.

This Black Crossing is, for most (if not all) model combinations, well below the intensity of light in an average viewing environment.

Since market preference will form based on at best the average home viewing environment and at worst average purchase-location brightness (in-store decision), LCD has the black-level advantage.

---

An interesting experiment is to put an LCD and plasma display side by side, and send them both a fullscreen black signal. Then dim the ambient lighting until their blacks merge into identical inky pools. Congratulations, for you have now found their Black Crossing!

Yes, black level testing is only done in DIM settings. Even pitch black. At that point all digital displays can't show a true black. Very sad.

Plasmas do alot better because their isn't as much light leakage. Can anyone confirm that Rear Projections have better blacks than the best plasmas (i.e. Pioneer or Panasonic)?

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #11 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 06:11 PM
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the plasma guys really need to chill with the black level ruckus. it's not the holy grail of image quality.

they may as well start complaining about their local cineplexs black level too. i live in the sf bay area and we have no shortage of quality film cineplexs here.

ever look at the black level when watching film? doesn't look like plasma.

is that a negative?
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post #12 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bosng View Post

the plasma guys really need to chill with the black level ruckus. it's not the holy grail of image quality.

they may as well start complaining about their local cineplexs black level too. i live in the sf bay area and we have no shortage of quality film cineplexs here.

ever look at the black level when watching film? doesn't look like plasma.

is that a negative?

Very true.

I guess some people are just sick of watching REALLY dark scenes with a gray haze on the picture. It can be irksome for sure.


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post #13 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jawatkin View Post

LOL, will it ever end??? It started a Plasma vs. LCD debate... I love it....


ARRRGHHH!
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post #14 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 06:14 PM
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I like HDTV sets that have a realistic 3D viewing experience.

Based on your home viewing experience, which sets have such an attribute?
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post #15 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdog2004 View Post

I understand the objective of the reviewer here but really all it does is show that Vizio makes much better plasmas than they do LCD's. The new LCD's from Sony and Sharp blow away any LCD Vizio puts its name on...or for that matter any plasma they make either.
I think the Vizio plasmas are a lot closer to the benchmark plasmas(pioneer, panasonic)
than the Vizio LCD's are to the benchmark LCD(Sony, Sharp)

To be fair to the article though, one of the main criteria for making the comparison was that they retailed for the same price. Hence I think the article was really trying to look at which technology offered the better price/performance "value".
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post #16 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdog2004 View Post

Yeah I know and LCD's have much better whites, brighter picture, no glare or burn in etc etc etc. User preference......Ill take the tv I can see in the daytime without being washed out.

It's called get some curtains or blinds in the daytime.

Myself ill take the superior black levels, colors, over lcd with its blueish black levels, and neon colors. Lcd Might not look washed out in the day, come night time give me a gun so i can shoot it.
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post #17 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

It's called get some curtains or blinds in the daytime.

Myself ill take the superior black levels, colors, over lcd with its blueish black levels, and neon colors. Lcd Might not look washed out in the day, come night time give me a gun so i can shoot it.

And the urinated on Whites of a Panny PDP and the shave your face MIRROR in DAY/NIGHT. I prefer to see Picture not the inventory of the viewing room - curtains do nothing for reflections and a sunny exposure washes out that PDP. I took a $500 loss to get that POS Panny 500U out of my home it was that bad.

You've been viewing some OLD LCD's my Sin City Blows your PDP with true whites/blacks.

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
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post #18 of 24 Old 10-04-2006, 08:33 PM
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Haha, I love how some people blatently try to bash the type of set they do not own.

"Oh I'm using a plasma, therefore I'm gonna hate on all LCD's just because"

Did you ever stop to think each has it's advantages and people choose based on what their prefences are?

Both have their trade-off's, neither are flawless, so why try to be an ******* and claim one superior over the other when they each have areas that they excel in over the other?

Sincerly some people on here exaggerating the flaws each type of display produces need a good, swift SMACK across the face. Quit trying to be so smug with your choice and just be happy and humble, ffs.
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post #19 of 24 Old 10-05-2006, 07:31 AM
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This is just another example of why Lcd and Plasma should have separate forums.
I still haven't pulled the trigger yet on a large screen purchase but I am getting close.
But using this combined forum would be like trying to decide what car to buy with a combined Chevy/Ford group.
If I read a thread with Plasma in the title, there is always a post by someone who prefers his LCD over a pos plasma.
But I am truly grateful I found this board for my search of information.
My thanks goes out to all here trying to help others with their knowledge.
Dave
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post #20 of 24 Old 10-05-2006, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

You've been viewing some OLD LCD's my Sin City Blows your PDP with true whites/blacks.

what a lucid and intelligent argument.

"That's right Mr. Martini...there is an Easter Bunny".
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post #21 of 24 Old 10-05-2006, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bosng View Post

the plasma guys really need to chill with the black level ruckus. it's not the holy grail of image quality.

they may as well start complaining about their local cineplexs black level too. i live in the sf bay area and we have no shortage of quality film cineplexs here.

ever look at the black level when watching film? doesn't look like plasma.

is that a negative?

Typical contrast for film projection in the theater is a piddling 500:1. Yes there are newer systems that do better than that. But there aren't a lot of theaters investing in new equipment...

Course, a 2-story screen covers a multitude of PQ sins.
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post #22 of 24 Old 10-05-2006, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

And the urinated on Whites of a Panny PDP and the shave your face MIRROR in DAY/NIGHT. I prefer to see Picture not the inventory of the viewing room - curtains do nothing for reflections and a sunny exposure washes out that PDP. I took a $500 loss to get that POS Panny 500U out of my home it was that bad.

You've been viewing some OLD LCD's my Sin City Blows your PDP with true whites/blacks.

Enjoy your tiny TV. Seriously, if they made bigger LCD's for the same price as plasma's, I would likely be getting one. Even Samsung's 57" is $9k, you can get the new 65" 1080P panny for that price.
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post #23 of 24 Old 10-05-2006, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2muchtime View Post

This is just another example of why Lcd and Plasma should have separate forums.
I still haven't pulled the trigger yet on a large screen purchase but I am getting close.
But using this combined forum would be like trying to decide what car to buy with a combined Chevy/Ford group.
If I read a thread with Plasma in the title, there is always a post by someone who prefers his LCD over a pos plasma.
But I am truly grateful I found this board for my search of information.
My thanks goes out to all here trying to help others with their knowledge.
Dave

I disagree. If you are not a complete sheep and believe everything you read, then you should be able to discern the basic pros/cons of both types of display and use that information to point you in the right direction. In having a thread/forum where fanboys of both sides come in with their 2 cents you get information from both sides to see the big picture instead of just one side of it. Keep in mind though this forum's purpose is to share information and opinions. To actually let someone tell you what you will be seeing, well that is just ridiculous. What one person sees should not speak for what you will see also.

So take it all with a grain of salt, in the end it should be your own eyes to decide when you go out and look. Here you can get an idea of what you might want to go out and take a look at, but no one should be able to tell you what set to get without you actually seeing it. That's why I find it so laughable when people try to exaggerate a flaw or weakness in either particular type of display. That is just what they see (or sometimes lead themselves to believe ) and shouldn't be taken as fact, it's just their opinion.

The bashing is getting ridiculous. This is a place to educate people not to sway them one way or another. State the facts and your opinion also if you can keep it non-biased and childish (as some comments on here have been). People need to just be happy with what they have and stop trying to piss on what they don't.
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post #24 of 24 Old 01-08-2007, 09:56 AM
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Hi,
I found this thread. If I have a budget of up to $6,000 to spend in a living room/den which gets a decent amount of sunlight for a few hours a day, and I want a set over 50" can someone post some suggestions on what to get - either LCD or Plasma, and specific brands? I prefer Plasma but am concerned about the ambient light washing out the screen.

Thanks all.
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