Sharp Aquos LCD 2007 speculation thread: D92? TruD? HDMI 1.3? - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 06:10 AM
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New Sharp press releases can be found here:

http://www.sharpusa.com/products/Fun...079,34,00.html


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post #632 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 06:39 AM
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Sharp seems to describe the function that TruD HD is doing but never says they are using the chipset. It seems many manufacturers have similar descriptions this model year so it is unclear whether these are all proprietary solutions that magically appeared the same year, or they have some agreement with Micronas to use their chipset but market it in whatever fashion they choose.

The proof will be in the pudding of course and I don't care what chipset or technology they use, it better look visibly better in person on real content, not simulated content.

I wonder why the 65" is worthy of it's own D93U model series? The way it is written I don't think it is a typo.

http://www.sharpusa.com/products/Fun...636-34,00.html
Quote:


The Advanced Super View Panel on the D92 series and the LC-65D93U provides an unsurpassed Dynamic Contrast Ratio of 15,000:1, producing the industry's deepest black levels available today for exceptional detail in both light and dark scenes. Sharp's proprietary FineMotion Advanced technology combines double-frame data interpolation and 120Hz frame rate conversion, double the traditional 60Hz driving speed, for even finer video performance. With the FineMotion Advanced mode, pixel response time is an industry-best 4ms, ensuring smooth, flowing motion in fast-action scenes and an overall immersive experience.

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post #633 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 07:33 AM
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Maybe the guy I talked to at the booth misinformed me then? They were still setting up, but he had a Sharp badge and he was definitely from Japan (had a heavy accent). I know they have a big row of D92s on the floor next to a row of D62s. The sign above the D92s said something like "professional series". And then along the back wall there's a sign that said "120Hz vs 60Hz". The 120Hz set did look like a D92, but since I was told that it was a technology demo only and that 120Hz was going into the model after, I just assumed they used a D92 chassis with demo hardware. I asked for a brochure, but he said it'd be available tomorrow (today). Oh well, I guess we'll all find out for sure in a couple hours when the show officially opens.
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post #634 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nambit View Post

I think you're getting the d92 and d82 mixed up. It's all over the place that the
d92 is 120hz, even in the preliminary specs. Heck, it's on their slide. Either that
or the "banding issue fixed" comment suggests it was a d62 or something.

I'm almost positive it was the D92 I was asking about. I looked at the back and there were 3 HDMI and 1 DVI ports. I don't think the D82 has DVI. But I just read the press release, so I guess what the guy told me was wrong. Regarding the banding issue, I just asked if the new sets had any banding and he said the problem is fixed now.
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post #635 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub View Post

I wonder why the 65" is worthy of it's own D93U model series? The way it is written I don't think it is a typo.

http://www.sharpusa.com/products/Fun...636-34,00.html

Maybe the 3 in D93U is for HDMI 1.3?

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post #636 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub View Post

I wonder why the 65" is worthy of it's own D93U model series? The way it is written I don't think it is a typo.

i think it's because it has a different physical design...it has a different finish and doesn't have the detachable speakers in the d92 series.

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post #637 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 08:32 AM
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In case anyone else was curious of the difference between the new Sharp 82U and 92U series, I have compiled a list of the major feature similiarities and differences directly quoted from the Sharp USA site, and have made the comparisons below.

Based upon the MSRP's you can expect a 13.5% premium ($500) to upgrade from the 46" 82U to the 92U, and a 10.4% premium ($500) to upgrade from the 52" 82U to the 92U. You'll have to decide for yourself if the increased NTSC color coverage, 5000:1 increase in contrast ratio, and addition of a DVI-I and RS232 port is worth the increase in price.

Here's the quotes from Sharp's press release pages on the D92 Series:
"The D92 series... features.. true 16:9 1080p (1920 x 1080 resolution)..... produced at the company's state-of-the-art, 8th generation LCD plant in Kameyama, Japan.... the D92 series... provides an unsurpassed Dynamic Contrast Ratio of 15,000:1... and 120Hz frame rate conversion, double the traditional 60Hz driving speed... pixel response time is an industry-best 4ms... All three models in the D92 series and the LC-65D93U incorporate Sharp's proprietary 5-wavelength backlight system... The D92 series TVs and the LC-65D93U incorporate ATSC, QAM and NTSC tuners... The LC-42D92U will be available in April for a Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of $3,99.99.
The LC-46D92U will be available in January for an MSRP of $4,199.99.
The LC-52D92U will be available in January for an MSRP of $5,299.99.
The LC-65D93U will be available in March for an MSRP of $10.999.99. "

Here's the quotes from Sharp's press release pages on the D82U Series:
"new Kameyama No. 2 generation 8 LCD factory with the debut of the AQUOS D82U series... with built-in ATSC, QAM and NTSC tuners... The D82 series also features full-spec 1080p (1920 x 1080) HDTV resolution... an impressive Dynamic Contrast Ratio of 10000:1... FineMotion Advanced technology with 120 Hz frame rate conversion and an incredible pixel response time of 4 ms... Sharp's proprietary 4-wavelength backlight system...
LC-52D82U will be available in February for a Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of $4,799.99.
LC-46D82U will be available in February for an MSRP of $3,699.99."


Summary:
Both the 82U and the 92U Series feature
1080p resolution
120hz frame rate conversion (which we believe = Micronas TruHD chip)
4ms response time
ATSC, QAM, and NTSC tuners
Are manufactured at the new Kameyama II plant
3 HDMI and 2 Component inputs all capable of accepting 1080p signals as an input

Features that differentiate the two series:
82U includes a 4-wavelength Backlight Display Unit; 92U includes the new 5-wavelength backlight system (Supposedly better color reproduction, I'd love to see numbers on the % of NTSC coverage for both models)
82U has a 10,000:1 contrast ratio, 92U has a 15,000:1 contrast ratio (I'd also LOVE to see a side-by-side comparison and reviews on how much of a difference this makes, and I'd love to see the ACTUAL contrast ratio numbers between the two series.)
The 92U series adds DVI-I and RS232 ports
The 46 82U's MSRP is $500 cheaper than the 46 92U's MSRP (13.5% premium) The 52 82U's MSRP is $500 cheaper than the 52 92U's MSRP (10.4% premium)


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post #638 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Block View Post

Don't buy the Sharp D92u series unless it has HDMI 1.3 with anything above 12-bit processing.
HDMI 1.2 and 8 or 10-bit processing isn't worth throwing 4k for when in 3 1/2 months it'll be half off.

LOL you guys can go buy the Sharp HDMI 1.2 d92u while be waiting to get the New HDMI 1.3 SAMSUNG or New HDMI 1.3 Toshiba.

"All include Toshiba's PixelPure3G 14-bit internal video processing with 16 times the colors of previous 8-bit systems, enhanced MPEG noise reduction technology and Dynalight dynamic backlighting that the company claims can create dynamic contrast of up to five times the panel's standard contrast ratio. Digital ATSC/QAM tuners, 3 HDMI inputs each and black cabinets complete the line. Two more LCDVD sets in 26- and 32-inch sizes add an internal DVD 720p upconverting DVD player. Toshiba has also added a new 52-inch 1080p display to its HL167 line, including ColorBurst (up to 90% of the NTSC color gamut and CE-Link (HDMI-CEC) control features. Finally, it has updated its Cinema Series in 42-, 46-, 52- and 57-inch models. All include ClearFrame 120Hz anti-motion blur technology, THINC Ethernet port and HDMI 1.3 connectors with Deep Color and xvYCC support. The 1080p Regzas are due in June or July, with the exception of the updated 42-inch, which should come a month earlier."

"HP-T5064: 50-inch (13-bit signal processing, 10,000:1 contrast ratio, HDMI 1.3, 1,300 cd/m2 brightness and "Auto-Wall mount" to adjust the mount angle via remote), March, $3,199"




HDMI 1.3, 120 Hz trumotion, 14-bit!

You guys need to get off this 14-bit processing thing. Do you know what this is? It's marketing bullcrap, and Toshiba does it better than most. This number refers to either one of two things: a 14-bit video processor which means absolutely nothing whatsoever to the consumer (the processor in closed designs like these is fast enough to do what it was designed to do.... we need not care what kind of specs it has). DVD player marketers have done this for years. The other possibility is that it is "upsampling" (I put this in quotes for a reason) the greyscale LUT values from 8-bit to 14-bit via a look-up table. What you need to understand is that these tvs do NOT have 14-bit color depth. No LCD on planet earth does! They ALL are 8-bit panels and regardless of what kind of processing is being done the color depth that greets your eyes via the display panel itself is 8-bit, including on this Toshiba. Having a look-up table offers some minor reduction of dithering, nothing more. You guys are falling for this marketing nonsense just like they want you to.

Side note to the people going on about Sharp not leading technology and the mention of BrightSide: even with a production case the pricetag for such a product would be 5 digits. Sharp was to be a volume leader in the LCD world and you do that with mainstream products not with exotic designs that look good on paper but are out of reach to 99.5% of people. While I'm personally a little disappointed they aren't trying to push the price down (the D92 price feels inflated really) Sharp offers one of the most competitive products on the market here.
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post #639 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 09:30 AM
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The "3" in D93 refers to a cosmetic variation only, presumably the silver trim seen on photos of the European models since what we've seen so far is all black.
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post #640 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 09:34 AM
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Its true most LCD panels (theactual panel, not the whole thing) are only 8 bit, but I am pretty sure there are 10-bit models. This give you 1024 gradations instead of 256. If I am wrong, I am wrong, but 10 bits for each color should look better than 8 bits. The only real concern hear is why they insist on 12, 14, 16 bit control and processing when the panel is on 8 or 10. Is there any real advantage or is it all marketing? It may be all marketing, but it is a substantial amount of extra investment for a pure marketing gain if that is the case...

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post #641 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denyart View Post

Its true most LCD panels (theactual panel, not the whole thing) are only 8 bit, but I am pretty sure there are 10-bit models. This give you 1024 gradations instead of 256. If I am wrong, I am wrong, but 10 bits for each color should look better than 8 bits. The only real concern hear is why they insist on 12, 14, 16 bit control and processing when the panel is on 8 or 10. Is there any real advantage or is it all marketing? It may be all marketing, but it is a substantial amount of extra investment for a pure marketing gain if that is the case...

While I'm sure 10-bit LCD panels exist, they don't in consumer electronics. It would push response times back up to the levels we were seeing 4 years ago or more with grey-to-grey responses being 25ms or more. This is the primary reason why computer monitors (the cheap ones and gamer models) are still 6-bit, so they can pull in those 2ms response times.

As for the LUT issue like I mentioned this can help with dithering (color banding that appears due to a lack of gradients), but the improvement is minor. The concept is similar to upsampling audio to 96khz or upsampling DVDs. You can add additional greyscale values by exploding out the list of values and then interpolating new values within the original ones, but that doesn't mean you're magically adding new information. You're just "smoothing the curve" a bit is all.
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post #642 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 09:56 AM
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Man, this sucks. I can't keep up with this technology. Everytime I'm ready to pull the trigger, somebody comes out with a HUGE LEAP in technology. The 50,000:1 contrast ratio on the new Samsung LED LCD's is ridiculous. Toss in Pioneer's new technology and I can't justify spending 4-5 grand on this TV when the other stuff is right around the corner. DAMN. Ignorance sometimes really is bliss.
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post #643 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 10:42 AM
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Xcal -

I had a Sammy LCD 5296 that exhibited zero false contouring, while my d7u Sharps are not so smooth. The Sammy has a 10 bit processor that delivers 12 billion colors, according to their website.

I have to say, this makes a huge difference in solid color rendition, skies are fabulous with this set, smooth color variations that rival reality, all sets should have 10 bit. Beyond that, it is probably marketing hype as you say.
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post #644 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 10:47 AM
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The best advice is to buy what looks good for you now. There is no point in waiting as there will always be new significant technology around the bend.

Buy a TV enjoy it, and then in 5 years buy another one. The television quality right now is outstanding.
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post #645 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 11:36 AM
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If these sharp's live up to their specs, these d92u's will definetely be better than anything else out there. I can't wait to get a chance to view one of these sets!
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post #646 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 12:30 PM
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I wonder who will be the FIRST to spot one in the wild. They are supposed to be shipping (according to CES), but when will they be in your corner store.

There can only be one....who will claim the prize...

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post #647 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTR00GT View Post

I wonder who will be the FIRST to spot one in the wild. They are supposed to be shipping (according to CES), but when will they be in your corner store.

There can only be one....who will claim the prize...

Yes, banding for almost twice the price!

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post #648 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 01:14 PM
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Didnt Sharp LCDs have problems with overscan?

Will these new D92 models have perfect 1:1 pixel mapping for HTPCs, console gaming, etc.?
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post #649 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 01:32 PM
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the d62's had 1:1 pixel mapping from what I remember
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post #650 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 01:33 PM
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Banding on the 108" D92
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post #651 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 01:34 PM
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good question. looks like it got overlooked with the huge focus on banding.

is there overscan when using a PC? how about other types of inputs?
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post #652 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicaly View Post

the d62's had 1:1 pixel mapping from what I remember

yes it does, I own a d62

edit: it does 1:1 on any 1080 sources
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post #653 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 01:36 PM
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that's an off-axis picture. could just be camera effects. i hope the 92u's dont have banding...
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post #654 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 01:41 PM
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Can someone explain the real significance of 120Hz and particularly its relationship with refresh rate.

I am not understanding why the 92u series with 120Hz and 4ms refresh will be any better at dealing with motion artifacts than the 62u series with 60Hz(?) and 4ms.

And if speed is so important why is it not even on product spec sheets but refresh rate is?
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post #655 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcp View Post

Can someone explain the real significance of 120Hz and particularly its relationship with refresh rate.

I am not understanding why the 92u series with 120Hz and 4ms refresh will be any better at dealing with motion artifacts than the 62u series with 60Hz(?) and 4ms.

And if speed is so important why is it not even on product spec sheets but refresh rate is?

Not sure if I can answer your question, but I am buying a 120hz model to help combat the jumpy video you can get on camera pans (and in hopes that whatever I buy, it does pulldown properly. ie 2:2, 4:4, 5:5 and not 6:4, etc). This is what I read anyway along with blurring issues. Also any models coming out love to show 120 hz on their spec sheets. For 60 hz models, there was no point (or am I wrong). If I missed the mark on this dcp, my apologies.

PS. Nice to see avsforum back online as it must have been hammered for CES info!

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post #656 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 05:10 PM
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does anyone remember what the MSRP was on the first day for the d62u??
and what is the current msrp?
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post #657 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSET View Post

does anyone remember what the MSRP was on the first day for the d62u??
and what is the current msrp?

For Canada, I expected it to start at $3999 last October (or I think it was Oct.), but I was surprised most chains had it 3499 when it came out. The least I have see it at was costco for 2999 two weeks ago.

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post #658 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 05:32 PM
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From their press release:
Quote:


Mega-Contrast Premium LCD:
Sharp's Mega-Contrast LCD will enable filmmakers, video producers and other professionals that need uncompromised display picture quality to see flawless images on a 37-inch high-definition LCD monitor. With a contrast ratio of 1,000,000:1, which is approximately one thousand times better than the contrast of today's high-quality LCD TVs, the Mega-Contrast LCD shows incomparably vivid pictures. This display is based on Sharp's one-of-a-kind technologies, cultivated during more than 30 years of experience in LCD research and development. The Mega-Contrast LCD is ideal for use as a master monitor in television broadcast studios and motion-picture production houses.

Who's going to buy one of these and give us a review?
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post #659 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcp View Post

Can someone explain the real significance of 120Hz and particularly its relationship with refresh rate.

I am not understanding why the 92u series with 120Hz and 4ms refresh will be any better at dealing with motion artifacts than the 62u series with 60Hz(?) and 4ms.

And if speed is so important why is it not even on product spec sheets but refresh rate is?

while I am not sure it will directly support it. 24, 30, and 60 fps sources can all be easily multiplied on a 120Hz refresh. Thus, if properly implemented, film sources can look really clean when in motion.

To quote Socrates: I drank what?
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post #660 of 3473 Old 01-08-2007, 06:05 PM
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To Xcalibur_255 and denyart.

10 bit panels do exist. That new 70xbr3 is one and Sony even specifically said so in the press release.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TFTL...amily_cd=LCD04

All of the 52s and up is listed as 10 bit and 1 40 inch too. There will be more as panels get updated. I didn't see any increase in response time going from 8 bit to 10 bit.

EDIT More bits processing is good. At least we can be sure nothing is lost in rounding off.
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