Official Sony Bravia LCD Uneven Backlight/Cloudy Thread - Page 55 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Does your Sony 46" XBR LCD suffer from an uneven backlight or cloudy background?
YES, clouds can been seen when dark colors are displayed or when switching inputs 1,294 69.05%
NO, my screen has a perfect, fully even, backlight 580 30.95%
Voters: 1874. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1621 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 09:25 AM
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EpStewart,

What I meant was that Sony is treating the mura issue like LCD manufacturers treated the pixel issue. They even have info in the literature for this product about stuck pixels and "dark areas" stating "This is intrinsic to this technology and should not be considered a defect".

These sets are selling off the shelves and are out of stock frequently. They may be letting some "grade B" or "grade C" panels be used to meet demand. Who knows? The mura issue is clearly different from one set to the next and is more pronounced on some. It is intrinsic to your particular panel. It does not change by input and varies some by settings (some exaggerate it, others cover it up a bit).

Sony will never replace all of these TV's. It would take a successful class action suit (read 24 to 36 months). They can't fix an individual set without replacing the panel, which is likely as costly as replacing the whole set. If your panel has defects that interfere with viewing pleasure, I suggest you return it (once). If you get another bum panel (likely one that most consumers would still think is "normal"), then you might consider waiting until they upgrade their quality standards or pick different technology.

Should they sell sets with lower grade panels? They are, and the vast majority of consumers don't notice the issue as it is usually a mild one. Would it be nice to have a perfect panel? Yes. How can you get one? I don't know. One couple on this forum went to 12 stores. Some folks have returned five or six sets. This is beyond what I could or would do. To each his own. Do I feel ripped off with my mild mura defect? Nope. I consider it part of this technology and "normal" and the 66% of panels affected on the poll bear out the likelihood that Sony currently considers it normal and tolerable by the vast majority of consumers. To ship all "grade A+" panels would increase the price of an already expensive product.

One other example: I have purchased a new car before and had to accept a minor flaw or two in a new model year as I was not willing to wait two years for the manufacturer to work out all the bugs. The second and third generation of a product are almost always better than the first. Plasma sets are now 9th generation. LCD's are now 7th generation. This is as good as it gets for Sony/Samsung 40 inch and larger LCD sets. The few "perfect panels" are the aberration at this price point.

I just watched another HD program on Discovery HD and almost cried with amazement and joy over the stunning view from my 46v2500. I felt as if I was there with the spelunkers and explorers. I'm recording HD Matrix -Reloaded as I type and will likely watch too much TV due to this set. I hope I don't get addicted to HD programming. My wife told me to get rid of the box. (meaning don't keep it to return the set) She loves the picture and she's not a much of a TV person. If I sent this set back, she would think I was off my rocker a bit. Good luck to you all, but don't think Sony will give you a new set, and if they do, like one guy on the forum, he still got the "defect" on his replacement set. That's because it is not considered a defect by Sony. To get them to consider it a defect, since it affects over half of these sets, would take a judge and thousands of consumers. How will that occur with the vast majority of folks thinking the set is orgasmic right out of the box.
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post #1622 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irunnoft View Post

I started my ordeal with a V2500 series and you'll get clouds there too. I'm off to Best Buy to return my fourth TV and, I was originally going to pick up my Oct. 40XBR2 that had the clouding only evident in a dark room. It was there last night as an open box special but I decided to try one more brand new 40XBR2 instead. I called BB only to find out that my liveable cloudy Oct. XBR2 was sold last night

So....I'm just going to get my money back and go to the Circuit City down the road and give them a shot. I'll post back in about four hours, which is what it'll take me round trip to drive the 60 miles away to BB and perform all the exchanges and get back from CC with the new XBR2.

God help me!

Irunnoft (or anybody): have you any way to get the store to give you a critical look at the TV you are about to take home while you are still in the store?

I bought my 40XBR2 online and had no such opportunity. I'm afraid to exchange it, sight unseen ... might get a worse one. I'm toying with trying to send it back for a full refund and shelling out a higher price at Best Buy. But not if I can't look at the new set in the store ...

Eric Stewart
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post #1623 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epstewart View Post

Irunnoft (or anybody): have you any way to get the store to give you a critical look at the TV you are about to take home while you are still in the store?

I bought my 40XBR2 online and had no such opportunity. I'm afraid to exchange it, sight unseen ... might get a worse one. I'm toying with trying to send it back for a full refund and shelling out a higher price at Best Buy. But not if I can't look at the new set in the store ...

I did this at Circuit City after returning one for cloudy backlight. They set up another out of the warehouse in their AV room (where it was much darker) and powered it up. It too had clouds so I said no thanks. They were willing to open one or two more (though they didn't have them in stock at the time) but I said not to bother.

-Tom
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post #1624 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 10:15 AM
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I just read the recent posts by Irunnoft and epstewart. The fact that Irunnoft will be on his fifth set proves my point. The bulk (over half, likely 3/4) of these sets have this issue to some degree and it is considered acceptable by most consumers and Sony. If it was a bet on their part, it seems to be working out judging by the frequent "out of stock" messages on these sets.

The V2500 only started manufacture in 09/06. There are no July and August builds of this set. November and October v2500 builds have been reported here to have this issue. Getting a perfect set seems to be unlikely at this point as most of the "magic" early XBR sets from "July and August" have been purchased. By the way, there are posts of this cloudiness issue with those sets too.

If we had never heard of the "perfect sets", we would likely be in ignorant bliss. The fact that some early XBR's do not seem affected has made some worry they are the victims of a decrease in quality control standards over time. Perhaps this is the case. If you believe this, I would not buy one of the $3200 to $4000 sets at this time. If you believe that some mild mura effect is acceptable and essentially "normal" as Sony does, then by all means, take the plunge, but buy at a place that accept refunds. The prices of these sets at Bestbuy and Circuit City, to me, are outrageous. ($3400 plus about $200 sales tax for a 46 inch XBR2) If you are expecting a perfect set, you will likely be disappointed (especially if you found this thread). I got my 46v2500 for $2599 (delivered, unpacked and untaxed) from Amazon.com within 6 business days. Perhaps my expectations are lower as I bought the midline version and not the top of the line XBR2 and XBR3 series. The sets use the same LCD panels, but the XBR's are more attractive to some.
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post #1625 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 10:46 AM
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I have been reading this thread for awhile now, as everyone goes back and forth about this "clouding issue". I personally have not purchased a 40XBR2, but I plan to over Christmas Break, which will compliment my PS3 and Media Center PC. I have been researching about calibrating the TV as well and some say the clouding problem can be reduced by properly calibrating the set. So I went to Best Buy/Magnolia's website to get some information about getting a TV calibrated. On the FAQs page when selecting professional installation/calibrating tv. It states in there that you should not rush to have your TV calibrated as there is "break in" period of about 100 hrs of television use.

I am no expert in TVs, but I would like to say I am an audio/video enthusiast. I am also a car/motorcycle enthusiast. But to me, it seems like calibrating and making judgements about your television set before it is "broken in" is premature. Its like buying a new car or motorcycle, you cant take it out and run it for all its got the first day, no you can't, you have to wait for a minimum of 1000 miles during break in before it reaches optimal power.

Like I said I am no expert in this area but I figured I would give my 2 cents

I am still planning to go to Best Buy in Delaware (no sales tax) and purchase a 40xbr2. But I will be sure to have them open the box and test the screen before I leave. I will also be sure to purchase the 4 year protection plan in case this issue becomes apparent.
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post #1626 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 11:20 AM
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I just called Best Buy, and they are not able to order the XBR2 40". They said that the sets were on back order, and didn't know when they would be available.They only have one in stock, probably an open box.
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post #1627 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 11:24 AM
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Guys, don't confuse your own being sick and tired or returning and exchanging TVs for actually finally admitting that the picture was fine in the first place. It's a well known psychological phenomenon. True, it's no longer in you to keep returning sets -- and that's understandable! -- but that doesn't mean there was no problem in the first place. It just means Sony's poor QA and (not unusually dishonest) communication finally beat you, as it would anyone eventually. Don't let posters like TaoRunner and jktrading convince you otherwise.

In other words, if you're finally happy with your cloudy TV, great. As long as you're happy, that's what matters. But that doesn't mean Sony was right and you were wrong.

I know this from a computer game called Half-Life 2 with its stuttering problem. For months, I tried to debug this problem and shared information on forums -- I did this far longer than I cared about the actual game anymore, and, at some points, I started doubting my own sanity, what with the less-than-objective people without the problem constantly telling me there is no problem or that it's my PC's fault. Eventually, I gave up -- but hey, the problem is still there.

Anyway, sorry to ramble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigorange View Post

I just called Best Buy, and they are not able to order the XBR2 40". They said that the sets were on back order, and didn't know when they would be available.They only have one in stock, probably an open box.

Go there now! It's an open box, so they can hook it up for you and you can examine it for clouds. This happened to me at a CC, and I found a cloudless 46XBR2 that way (but I didn't buy it due to the high price).
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post #1628 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 11:29 AM
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I Just purchased an KDL-40XBR2 on 11-20-2006. The manufacture date is November of 2006. The Cloud sweeps down from the upper right hand corner at an angle to the center of the display. I contacted Sony and registered the issue.
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post #1629 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 11:36 AM
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Well, I got my 2nd 46" xbr3 an hour ago and can confirm that it too has the clouds, just as bad as before. I attached images of both sets to show how they look. The second one was also an OCT06 build.

Once I reconfirmed the clouds, I immediately called back Magnolia asking for a full refund. I have to eat the $50 shipping fee because I don't trust or want to wait for their tech to state that it's a valid flaw.

It's back to my old 19" tv now. I'm going to wait 6 months before trying again. Unfortunately I have to go with SONY because of my SONY credit card points. Oh well. Now I know not to recommend SONY ever again. Good job SONY, good job!
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post #1630 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 11:47 AM
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In response to Sony's assertion that a cloudy set is "normal", one point that I haven't seen discussed yet is whether a set with the clouds meets the Sony specified contrast ratio of 1300:1. Looking at some of the pictures in this forum, as well as a kdl-40v2500 on display at cc (severe non-uniformity even under bright light conditions) it's hard to believe that a screen with severe clouding meets the contrast ratio spec.

My Sony kdl-v26xbr1, Westy LVM-42W2, and Mits LT-37131 all have very uniform backlighting (there are some very small variations that can be seen with carefull inspection under low light conditions, but nothing even remotely close to the Sony mura problems) so the degree of non-uniformity in a lot of the new Sony 1080p screens is in no way "normal".
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post #1631 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMacey55 View Post

I have been reading this thread for awhile now, as everyone goes back and forth about this "clouding issue". I personally have not purchased a 40XBR2, but I plan to over Christmas Break, which will compliment my PS3 and Media Center PC. I have been researching about calibrating the TV as well and some say the clouding problem can be reduced by properly calibrating the set. So I went to Best Buy/Magnolia's website to get some information about getting a TV calibrated. On the FAQs page when selecting professional installation/calibrating tv. It states in there that you should not rush to have your TV calibrated as there is "break in" period of about 100 hrs of television use.

I am no expert in TVs, but I would like to say I am an audio/video enthusiast. I am also a car/motorcycle enthusiast. But to me, it seems like calibrating and making judgements about your television set before it is "broken in" is premature. Its like buying a new car or motorcycle, you cant take it out and run it for all its got the first day, no you can't, you have to wait for a minimum of 1000 miles during break in before it reaches optimal power.

This is a flaw in the lcd,a defect pure and simple.I won't get calibrated away,don't pin your hopes thinking that will solve the problem, it won't,neither will letting the temperature adjust or all the other home remedy fixes.There are things you can do to slightly mask the problem:decreasing back light, power saving options etc, but they all come at a price which is inferior picture quality or a much darker picture which loses detail.Why buy this tv if you are going tweak away the beautiful picture quality,the one that stands it apart from the rest of the LCD world,why.Demand a perfect set like some apparently have and watch it in its full glory.

Who are you going to believe,me or your lying eyes?
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post #1632 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMacey55 View Post

... I went to Best Buy/Magnolia's website to get some information about getting a TV calibrated. On the FAQs page when selecting professional installation/calibrating tv. It states in there that you should not rush to have your TV calibrated as there is "break in" period of about 100 hrs of television use.

I am no expert in TVs, but I would like to say I am an audio/video enthusiast. I am also a car/motorcycle enthusiast. But to me, it seems like calibrating and making judgements about your television set before it is "broken in" is premature. Its like buying a new car or motorcycle, you cant take it out and run it for all its got the first day, no you can't, you have to wait for a minimum of 1000 miles during break in before it reaches optimal power.

Like I said I am no expert in this area but I figured I would give my 2 cent.

Well, it turns out that that info doesn't really apply to LCDs; it's either generic or was written to apply to plasma. There's no reason these sets should have this problem.

The factors that make break-in matter on a new bike don't apply at all to LCDs, as it turns out. Mechanical vs. electronic - big difference.
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post #1633 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 12:13 PM
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All,
In reviewing some 50+ pages now, there are a lot of posts all over the map on lots of ideas issues, etc. I think we need to try and hone in on a couple of things that might help with illustration, factor of settings, results, etc. This may involve the Moderator to set up some additional polls perhaps, but may help us all narrow things down.

First thing I'd like to offer is ILLUSTRATION of the problem. We've got tons of photographs, but no standard to base things on. In my post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...64#post9141664

You can see the effect exposure time can have on "illustrating" the problem. While .6 seconds makes it look ghastly, .6 seconds is not what I see visually.. What I see visually is much more like the 1/6th of a second shot.. more so now since destressing. Should we agree on one standard for images? I know for some without those settings on Point and Shoot digicams, it may be more difficult, but the point is to get an image more like what you see.

FACTOR OF SETTINGS - Here's where we may need some help in getting people to submit to a poll some of the settings they have, most likely to effect the clouding. This likely includes Backlighting, Brightness, Picture, Saver on/off, etc. We can't have every value represented, but e.g. say "Backlight" 1-3, 4-7, 8-10, "Picture" 0-35, 35-70, 70-100, etc.

RESULTS - So my thinking is this. We start with 3 images (based on an accepted standard), #1 is severe, #2 is moderate, #3 is mild/not there. People indicate, mine looks most like 1, 2, or 3. My settings are - Backlight #1 (1-3) or #2 (4-7), etc.

I don't know if you can link those types of multiple questions in a poll so we see patterms across varying degrees of the problem or not. I just think without some measure of standardization, this is very hard to follow, including anything we're trying to illustrate.

TO MODERATORS - First, is this doable? Second - would you be willing to help?

TO POSTERS - Hard as it may be, we'd need suggestions on best settings to measure, etc.

Just an idea, and we'd need to hear from the moderators first....

Jay S.
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post #1634 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 12:24 PM
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So I've posted twice in this thread with of course zero responses. Are there actually any methods to try to fix or lessen the cloudy effect for the XBR2s?
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post #1635 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Node View Post

So I've posted twice in this thread with of course zero responses. Are there actually any methods to try to fix or lessen the cloudy effect for the XBR2s?

The only one that seems to help for some people is to lay the TV face down (CAREFULLY) overnight.
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post #1636 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 12:48 PM
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I agree with Buzzy regarding the calibration/motorcycle analogy. The calibration of these sets just refers to setting certain values on "Picture", "Brightness", "Backlight", "Black correction", etc. These are accessible as sliders going from minimum to maximum on these values in the "Settings" submenu. The calibration that people are referring to are numbers on these sliders that produce the best picture for a given input or set of conditions based on published values from the tests of videophile websites like this one.

Some of you have misunderstood my posts. I do believe that mura defects are preventable via quality control measures. If all of these sets were produced with A+ panels, these defects would not be in the current offerings. Clearly some marginal sets (alot) have gotten through. Mine is perfectly acceptable. To me. I did say to each his own. I did say that Sony considers this to be within the range of "normal" for this technology. I do believe most folks would not notice this except on a severely affected set.

My set shows no noticeable defect on regular viewing. Each person will choose what they can tolerate. I am not going to return a set that only shows a defect on an input free blank screen. This is akin to returning a pair of expensive running shoes because they perform poorly on ice.

If you want no light bleedthrough during scene transitions and no slightly lighter areas under these viewing circumstances (dark source material, dark room, backlight set too high), then these sets are not for you. If you want perfect blacks and no light bleedthrough, get a plasma or wait until Samsung/Sony address this issue. I just wonder if they will, as the sets are selling like hotcakes, WITH the issue and most consumers will never become aware of this as a preventable defect.
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post #1637 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Node View Post

So I've posted twice in this thread with of course zero responses. Are there actually any methods to try to fix or lessen the cloudy effect for the XBR2s?

Node,
As someone else replied, laying it face down is the one thing that has has some measure of benefit. Go back to the very beginning of the thread, or search the thread for "destress" or "destressing". It made a difference in my case, but mine was not as severe as others that have been posted.

Jay S.
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post #1638 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 12:59 PM
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Node,

There are multiple prior posts on "Fixes" for this issue. No fair not reading the thread. The technique of laying the TV face down for 3-24 hours with the stand hanging off the table has been tried by several. This was to be augmented by "wiping down" the LCD lightly. It has helped a few sets, but whether the effects last is not known as few people have had their sets for over a month.

Adjusting the settings also helps a bit. The backlight setting produces the most noticeable effect. You see, the backlight is blaring at 10 (the highest setting) when you switch to a "blank input", grossly exaggerating the effect. Some have said they see the effect even in fairly well lit rooms on an active input with bright source material. To me, those sets are defective. Some only see a small amount of light bleedthrough in one area of the screen, only during play of dark source material in a dimly lit room. It varies widely. Add to this that the pictures posted produce different results at different camera settings and at times people aren't even talking about the same thing.

Take a look at the pictures I posted of my set. (post #1544)
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post #1639 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRedSuit View Post

Guys, don't confuse your own being sick and tired or returning and exchanging TVs for actually finally admitting that the picture was fine in the first place. It's a well known psychological phenomenon. True, it's no longer in you to keep returning sets -- and that's understandable! -- but that doesn't mean there was no problem in the first place. It just means Sony's poor QA and (not unusually dishonest) communication finally beat you, as it would anyone eventually. Don't let posters like TaoRunner and jktrading convince you otherwise.

In other words, if you're finally happy with your cloudy TV, great. As long as you're happy, that's what matters. But that doesn't mean Sony was right and you were wrong ...

RedRedSuit, I agree with you about just about everything you said ... except that it's not really clear to me that Sony is being "not unusually dishonest," per se. I don't know that corporate insensitivity/stupidity and outright lying are one and the same. I think a customer who deals with a Sony rep out of a pre-existing attitude of "you're probably going to lie to me" is hurting his chances for success.

Eric Stewart
Catonsville, MD
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post #1640 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by editwiz View Post

I Just purchased an KDL-40XBR2 on 11-20-2006. The manufacture date is November of 2006. The Cloud sweeps down from the upper right hand corner at an angle to the center of the display. I contacted Sony and registered the issue.

editwiz (or anybody), exactly how does one register the issue? When I called Sony I was simply referred to a local authorized service center. I was not given a case number or anything of the sort. I was told a technician would have to fix my set under warranty. If that didn't work, I would have to let the tech try again. Only after at least two unsuccessful tries would Sony consider replacing the TV.

While I don't consider that totally unreasonable and it might even work I still would like to register the problem in some Sony database somewhere. How is that done?

Eric Stewart
Catonsville, MD
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post #1641 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by epstewart View Post

Irunnoft (or anybody): have you any way to get the store to give you a critical look at the TV you are about to take home while you are still in the store?

I bought my 40XBR2 online and had no such opportunity. I'm afraid to exchange it, sight unseen ... might get a worse one. I'm toying with trying to send it back for a full refund and shelling out a higher price at Best Buy. But not if I can't look at the new set in the store ...

Fry's let me open up a couple of 40" XBR2s before I purchased one. I was more interested in dead pixels (the first one had a stuck green but the second tv was free of dead pixels) than the clouds issue. Their showroom is actually pretty dark, but it was still hard to see the clouds until I got the TV into a completely dark room.
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post #1642 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayS99 View Post

All,
In reviewing some 50+ pages now, there are a lot of posts all over the map on lots of ideas issues, etc. I think we need to try and hone in on a couple of things that might help with illustration, factor of settings, results, etc. This may involve the Moderator to set up some additional polls perhaps, but may help us all narrow things down.

First thing I'd like to offer is ILLUSTRATION of the problem. We've got tons of photographs, but no standard to base things on...

Right on, Jay S. We need to standardize the how-to-document-the-clouds issue. It could be difficult for those like me with a point and shoot camera, though ... no way to set the shutter speed, etc.

I also think someone should make it clear, in case it otherwise wouldn't be obvious to someone from (say) Sony who reads this thread. The clouds that are being talked about do not change position. They are stationary. They're always there. The may not be visible when arbitrary program material is viewed, but when you get the right kind of image in the program, or from a test DVD, the clouds reappear exactly as they were before! This is not random noise of some kind. It's a permanent, reproducible unevenness of transmitted brightness.

I think we should also be careful about asserting that it's the backlight that's bad. The liquid crystal material itself could be faulty. The electronic grid that controls the panel could be misbehaving. There could be foreign matter in the panel. If we keep saying it's the backlight, we could be setting ourselves up for Sony saying nothing's wrong with the backlight per se ... case closed.

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post #1643 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 01:39 PM
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RedRedSuit, I agree with you about just about everything you said ... except that it's not really clear to me that Sony is being "not unusually dishonest," per se. I don't know that corporate insensitivity/stupidity and outright lying are one and the same. I think a customer who deals with a Sony rep out of a pre-existing attitude of "you're probably going to lie to me" is hurting his chances for success.

Perhaps. I just don't think this behavior is unusual. The L1 support people are always clueless, and beyond that companies will never want to admit anything until the cat is out of the bag in the media and it becomes a necessity. I entirely agree that it's possible to get at an honest AND competent person within Sony eventually, but, as with almost any CE company, that is the exception rather than the norm.
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post #1644 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 01:49 PM
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Some of you have misunderstood my posts. I do believe that mura defects are preventable via quality control measures. If all of these sets were produced with A+ panels, these defects would not be in the current offerings. Clearly some marginal sets (alot) have gotten through. Mine is perfectly acceptable. To me. I did say to each his own. I did say that Sony considers this to be within the range of "normal" for this technology. I do believe most folks would not notice this except on a severely affected set.

TaoRunner, I agree with all this except for "Sony considers this to be within the range of 'normal' for this technology." I don't believe Sony has yet made a considered corporate response to this problem. I sincerely doubt the problem has yet percolated up to levels within Sony where a considered corporate response could be generated. Such is the nature of the corporate beast, to stonewall until the adverse evidence mounts to a sufficiently high degree that it has to listen.

But if you think Sony simply rolled over and accepted mura-plagued LCD panels, knowingly and on purpose, having decided in advance to call them "normal," well ... not even I am that cynical.

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post #1645 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 02:04 PM
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Perhaps. I just don't think this behavior is unusual. The L1 support people are always clueless, and beyond that companies will never want to admit anything until the cat is out of the bag in the media and it becomes a necessity. I entirely agree that it's possible to get at an honest AND competent person within Sony eventually, but, as with almost any CE company, that is the exception rather than the norm.

RRS, I think all of us ought to keep clear on the difference between the honesty (AND competence) of a person who works for Sony and the honesty of the corporation. The sheer incompetence OR cavalier attitude to the truth, as in "my shift is over in 15 minutes, I'm tired, I'll just blow this guy off" of any arbitrary Person X at Sony could make Sony, the corporation, look real bad. But it doesn't help at this stage to call Sony intrinsically dishonest.

It would be nice to find an individual Person Y higher up at Sony whose honesty/competence are stellar. But I think our best hope is to make Sony as a corporation sit up and pay attention. I don't think talk of the sort that makes the problem seem just a matter of some consumers' ultra-finicky expectations is of great help here. Spending in the range of $2500 to $3000+ on a TV and then finding out it has an objectively demonstrable problem of a kind one never dreamed existed and which the manufacturer calls "normal" just isn't on.

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post #1646 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 02:14 PM
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RRS, I think all of us ought to keep clear on the difference between the honesty (AND competence) of a person who works for Sony and the honesty of the corporation. The sheer incompetence OR cavalier attitude to the truth, as in "my shift is over in 15 minutes, I'm tired, I'll just blow this guy off" of any arbitrary Person X at Sony could make Sony, the corporation, look real bad. But it doesn't help at this stage to call Sony intrinsically dishonest.

Agree about the distinction. However, the two problems (individual and corporate dishonesty/incompetence) feed into each other. When the individuals blow you off and not report the problem up the chain, the corporation loses valuable information that would force them to be more proactive about the problem. You know as well as I do that most corporations won't publicly admit to any large-scale problem until they know for a fact that not doing so is going to cause them to lose face and money. I'm not even sure I would call this "dishonesty" on Sony's part; more of an ability to separate the real problems (like this) from the white noise.

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It would be nice to find an individual Person Y higher up at Sony whose honesty/competence are stellar. But I think our best hope is to make Sony as a corporation sit up and pay attention.

Certainly. Unfortunately, this involves finding honest/competent employees that actually somewhat care -- a difficult, but not impossible task.

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I don't think talk of the sort that makes the problem seem just a matter of some consumers' ultra-finicky expectations is of great help here. Spending in the range of $2500 to $3000+ on a TV and then finding out it has an objectively demonstrable problem of a kind one never dreamed existed and which the manufacturer calls "normal" just isn't on.

No argument there.
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post #1647 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 02:33 PM
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While I don't consider that totally unreasonable and it might even work I still would like to register the problem in some Sony database somewhere. How is that done?

Tell customer service you want an event number regarding your compliant. Each time you call reference that event number so any additional comments will be added to your record. I can't imagine them refusing to give you an event number.
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post #1648 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 02:33 PM
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I'm glad to annouce that my 40" xbr3 did not get any cloudy problem. I have the tv on for 1 hour now and cannot see any cloudiness on black scences. I did leave the tv in the box since monday until someone help me put it up, don't know if that helped any.
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post #1649 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 03:22 PM
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Should they sell sets with lower grade panels? They are, and the vast majority of consumers don't notice the issue as it is usually a mild one. Would it be nice to have a perfect panel? Yes. How can you get one? I don't know. One couple on this forum went to 12 stores. Some folks have returned five or six sets. This is beyond what I could or would do. To each his own. Do I feel ripped off with my mild mura defect? Nope. I consider it part of this technology and "normal" and the 66% of panels affected on the poll bear out the likelihood that Sony currently considers it normal and tolerable by the vast majority of consumers. To ship all "grade A+" panels would increase the price of an already expensive product.

You know TaoRunner makes a very good point, there are some mura affected panels that can be considered normal.
If you have a TV with a tiny faint amount of clouding in only one or two specific places, then that could easily be considered normal.
I have a JVC 46" LCD & it too has the same mura effect. two spots actually, but again it is so tiny, insignificant & at a specific spot that I would never consider returning it for that reason.

What is NOT normal though is 90% of all the pictures posted here. The mura effect is all over the screen, it's massive & completely takes over the picture. Abosultely in no means "normal" or acceapable for a mura defect.

This should have a policy like with deal pixels. You get 2 or so dead pixels, it's normal. You get 3 dozen dead pixels then the manufacturer sure as hell better replace it.
Sadly Sony is not replacing any panel no matter how severe the mura defect is.

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But if you think Sony simply rolled over and accepted mura-plagued LCD panels, knowingly and on purpose, having decided in advance to call them "normal," well ... not even I am that cynical.

This is looking more & more like what really happend.
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post #1650 of 9118 Old 12-16-2006, 03:46 PM
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Best Buy just rang me to say the 46" XBR2 I bought after Thanksgiving -- during the big sale -- is in the back room. I asked about opening it in the store before taking receipt of it and the employee seemed rankled by the suggestion. Not that I'm going to back down or anything, but how did you approach the issue and where that that store did you go to plug it in? There doesn't seem to be a dark place in the entire store.
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