Official Sony Bravia LCD Uneven Backlight/Cloudy Thread - Page 62 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: Does your Sony 46" XBR LCD suffer from an uneven backlight or cloudy background?
YES, clouds can been seen when dark colors are displayed or when switching inputs 1,298 69.12%
NO, my screen has a perfect, fully even, backlight 580 30.88%
Voters: 1878. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-19-2006, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DVD Freaky View Post

Does anyone think that uneven backlighting would be a reason for returning a tv?

I certainly do.

Actually, you usually don't need to give a reason. The store usually has a certain number of days in which you can return it, no questions asked.

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Old 12-19-2006, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Veers21 View Post

IMy question is does the clouding on the screen change over time, get worse or better as time goes on?

Veers, I don't think anyone can say for sure if it gets worse over time or not. If you see any imperfections today, you may want to register the event with Sony customer support now. Also, take some pictures that show up the imperfections, if possible. Do this with a black screen from an unused input. Set your camera to put the date on the photo if you can.

Then, if the problems get worse, you can prove they began in the warranty period.

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Old 12-19-2006, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manlung View Post

Hello everybody,

I am from Hongkong and I have just purchased the Bravia X (model here called 46X200A and it is made in Japan).

I have the same clouding effects as everybody in the forum. I called Sony CS (HK)and their technician told me that it is normal for a new panel (typically for the X series). He claimed that the clouds are here because of 1) Pressure and 2) new backlight. These clouds should be eliminated gradually after running for 100-150 hours.

So, it takes time for me to try it out. Anybody running it for months but still getting the clouds?

Hi, manlung, I pray the technician who told you that is right. Think of it ... virtually every problem posted on this thread gone after sufficient use of the TV!

It's not impossible that this will be the case. We know some posters have lessened the problem by laying the TV flat on its face and/or (carefully) rubbing it's screen. There may well be a mechanical stress or pressure component at the root of it. Or heat ... which can cause mechanical distortion, among other things.

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Old 12-19-2006, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epstewart View Post

Veers, I don't think anyone can say for sure if it gets worse over time or not. If you see any imperfections today, you may want to register the event with Sony customer support now. Also, take some pictures that show up the imperfections, if possible. Do this with a black screen from an unused input. Set your camera to put the date on the photo if you can.

Then, if the problems get worse, you can prove they began in the warranty period.

There are pictures somewhere in this thread demonstrating that the problem can get worse over time. I think the pictures were over a two month interval.

Others have claimed their TV initially had no clouds and then later on clouds appeared.
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Old 12-19-2006, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by DVD Freaky View Post

My thoughts exactly, for my Samsung. An update:

I had read a lot here about people getting rid of the clouds on their Sony by laying the tv face down. So, I put it on my bed for about 20 min. When I put it back on the stand and powered it back on, the clouds weren't as bad. Then I wiped down the remaining clouds and the bottom line is that the clouds have almost totally vanished.

This is encouraging. I've thought all along that most of these "clouds" are unrelieved stress in the panel. You can see how sensitive the panel is to stress by the slightest touch.

I think thermal cycling will also help reduce the stress over time. Heatign and cooling due to on/off cycles and even seasonal tempertature changes may have an effect. The good news is that over time the stresses should relax producing a more even backlight instead of the worsening as some here have feared.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD Freaky View Post

But I have other concerns..."in the dark", as you mentioned.

I am not sure if I have uneven light bleeding from the left side of my LCD...or whether it's simply the limits of LCD technology. In very dark scenes, the left side of the set looks brighter than the right. For example, the scrolling credits at the end of a movie were much brighter on the left and appeared to give off more light than the right side. I am seated just off the right edge of the set, maybe a foot from the center. I notice that when I move directly centered in front of the tv, the left side doesn't look quite as bright....but is the tv really that sensitive? You have to be directly in the middle of it, or the light from the sides will appear uneven?? I am really not too far off from the center of the tv....and the brightness of the left side is distracting in dark scenes.

This is the infamous viewing angle limitation of LCD. While Sony and others now claim these panels to have +/-176 deg viewing angle (both horz and vert), the truth is that while you can "see" the image clearly with in those ranges, the "quality" of the image will change if you move even a few degrees off of dead center.

While trying to set the brightness using the THX setup I found that setting the THX shadow color (deep black) so it was not visible was difficult since it would become visible again if I moved my head a foot to either side (I was about 5' from the 46" screen). That is a pretty small sweet spot.

Like audiophiles, we may be hypersenitive to these things where most people would simply say "WOW, what an amazing picture... it's so life like"
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Old 12-19-2006, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kronius View Post

There are pictures somewhere in this thread demonstrating that the problem can get worse over time.

I've had my 446XBR2 for about 6 weeks. The mura has stayed the same. No worse. No better.
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Old 12-19-2006, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Daak View Post

I have my mind set on the 46xbr2 (I'm a die-hard Sony fan) but I want to wait until this issue is resolved in the manufacturing. I'm hoping the issue is resolved by the end of January. I'm also going to buy online. Has anyone had any luck asking online sites what the build date of their sets are? It seems like it would save them a great deal of money not having to pay to have a defective product returned to them. Maybe this is asking too much.

P.S

If anyone has the clouds on their Dec or later builds let us, who are waiting to buy, know - thanks.


I'd decided to press my luck with the clouding issues and am scheduled to pick up my 46xbr3 on Thursday. Hopefully it will be a Dec build unit I receive. I'll do an AVIA calibration and take some pictures. (You can be sure I'll properly expose the images too!)

Fortunately since I do the HD Test drives for Sony, I have the hard drive that they use for demos in the trunk of my car...so I can use that loop to break in the set a little bit too.

God, I hope i don't have any noticeable clouding!

PS Can anyone point me in the right direction to look up info in the forum on UPS (Battery backup) units for HT setups? Thanks!
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Old 12-19-2006, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swizzir View Post

I've had my 446XBR2 for about 6 weeks. The mura has stayed the same. No worse. No better.

These are the posts I was talking about:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9139555

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9100644

Photographic evidence:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9094883
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Old 12-19-2006, 12:19 PM
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Sadly, I returned my XBR2 last night. The build date was Sept 2006. This set was so awesome that even my wife, who did not see the need for a HD set, was sorry to see it go back. I noticed the clouding issue right after I purchased the set at the beginning of December. Thanks to forums like this one, I was supported in my theory that the situation was not normal. I will definitely get a new one once Sony gets its act together.
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Old 12-19-2006, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by geronimo60 View Post

Sadly, I returned my XBR2 last night. The build date was Sept 2006. This set was so awesome that even my wife, who did not see the need for a HD set, was sorry to see it go back. I noticed the clouding issue right after I purchased the set at the beginning of December. Thanks to forums like this one, I was supported in my theory that the situation was not normal. I will definitely get a new one once Sony gets its act together.


So what did you get?
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Old 12-19-2006, 12:23 PM
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The clouding won't just "get better" over time. I had a July set that had clouding and it'd been a floor model/demo at BB running 7 days a week since July. It was the second worst out of the bunch. To think that it will suddenly go away after a break-in period is rather pie-in-the-sky. Looking at this issue with a modicum of realism, the issue, if anything, may only grow worse over time. Hate to sound negative, but the reality is that my experiences with this TV have been less than stellar.

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Old 12-19-2006, 12:44 PM
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All,
After looking at the PDF posted by epstewart,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&page=61&pp=30

I googled some of the topics listed in the PDF, and have written a few emails based on that... I've received a reply from a NASA scientist who is being gratious enough to allow me to place his quote and some links. He then gave me two replies.. first his thoughts, the a second permission to post and include some links. His name is Andrew Watson.

http://vision.arc.nasa.gov/personnel/watson/watson.html

First, my question:

Hello,
I recently came across your paper entitled "Flat Panel Display Defect Measurement Using a Human Vision Model"

http://technology.arc.nasa.gov/docs/...nelDisplay.pdf

and was fascinated in that there is a growing number of LCD HDTV Panels of various makes, which are being reported with this issue. Most recently, a number of Sony LCD owners have been attempting to get some of this resolved with Sony, who claim there is nothing wrong with the panels and that they are normal. The cases run from mild to severe, and people claim that various actions somewhat help, etc. Certainly some of the settings can help.

If you have some time, you opinion of the following thread would be greatly appreciated. It is a place where many Audio/Video enthusiasts are discussing the problem.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9&page=1&pp=30

Thank you,

Jay S.


Andrew's Replies

Dear Jay,
Without a formal arrangement, I can't devote the time to a careful study of this problem, but I would make the following points:
1. No screen, lcd, plasma, crt, lcos, etc., is uniform. All have variations/blemishes on various scales. So the question is not whether a display has non-uniformities, but rather how visible they are, and whether they are so far outside the normal range as to be considered "defective."
2. Viewing pictures of screens, which tends to present the screen in a greatly minified form, can paradoxically increase the visibility of large, slowly varying non-uniformities. Technically, this is because the eye is more sensitive to mid than to very low spatial frequencies. This tends to make the artifacts look much worse in a picture than they do in the world.
3. Pictures also tend to distort the grayscale range, which can make artifacts look worse.
4. This debate illustrates the need for objective methods of measuring the visibility of screen artifacts. We do have such a technique (the Spatial Standard Observer). Anyone interested in licensing the technique could contact me.

His Second Reply

Yes you can quote me, and you can use my name. If folks are interested in the Spatial Standard Observer, the paper is online at

http://vision.arc.nasa.gov/publicati...6-sid-31-1.pdf

and the science behind it is it

http://journalofvision.org/5/9/6/

Andrew

______________

So, some take aways from this... Apparently there are no uniform sets, it is a matter of degrees of the problem.. pictures can distort the view (we knew this), the eye is more sensitive.. This along with some of the posts put up by epstewart also point to a need to standardize on how to check for this during manufacture or assembly... If nothing else, we are getting very educated..

Jay S.
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Old 12-19-2006, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ransome View Post

Jay S,
All I am saying is that because there are perfect sets being produced(no clouding,no backlight issues),the rest are defective.Mine is defective as well, I have tried all remedies listed here with zero results.The sets don't need to be massaged, or carefully opened..they should work perfectly right out of the box or get replaced...no voodoo

Can anyone tell me WHY WHY WHY, when I call Sony, or Crutchfield, or Best Buy...they have no idea of the clouding issue....and have no knowledge of any returned units!!!!!!!?

I am dying to buy the xbr2....but am afraid of the results, when even SONY does not recognize the problem!!
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Old 12-19-2006, 01:12 PM
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I clean my screen with monster cleaning kit and it looks better. I still don't if i'm going to keep the TV. My isn't that bad but I still paid a good amount and the only reason I got the XBR line was because it is best. ITs not the best with uneven backlight.
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Old 12-19-2006, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by pamelasue1009 View Post

Can anyone tell me WHY WHY WHY, when I call Sony, or Crutchfield, or Best Buy...they have no idea of the clouding issue....and have no knowledge of any returned units!!!!!!!?

I am dying to buy the xbr2....but am afraid of the results, when even SONY does not recognize the problem!!

Pamela Sue,
Don't be afraid of getting one. The fact that you are now a much more informed customer greatly improves the odds of you getting a good one. At a minimum, copy this link, perhaps even show it to the sales folks before you spend you hard earned cash. Make sure that they are aware that if the one you receive has these issues you plan on not settleing for it. The more they know you are informed upfront (be sure to write down names) the less likely you are to have issues later. Some folks are requesting the one they will potentially get, be set up in a darkened area of the store and warmed up first.

Jay S.
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Old 12-19-2006, 01:43 PM
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[quote=epstewart]Veers, I don't think anyone can say for sure if it gets worse over time or not.

I've been watching my screen over time and although its very subjective, I believe that the clouds are worse when I first turn on the 46 XBR3. After several hours the black non uniformity decreases. Although it never goes away, it does look less prominent than when I first turn on the TV.
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Old 12-19-2006, 01:52 PM
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Has anybody had any luck with getting an authorized Sony serviceperson to come out to their home? I have a 46v2500 (Oct build) with the clouding problem - not the worst example but bad enough to be annoying - and I opened a service ticket with Sony today. They told me to contact a local service center who would send a serviceman over to check the set out. I'm guessing this is their standard line and also that there's no real fix other than a new panel, which is also likely to be bad.

Oh, and FWIW the Sony service rep told me that this was the first he'd heard of the problem, to which my reply was "I find that very, very difficult to believe."

I am an attorney and am thinking that something bigger needs to come of this. My $2,700 investment shouldn't be flawed from the get go with no recourse. I'm not going to sit here and live with this problem.
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Old 12-19-2006, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JayS99 View Post

Call customer complaint line I posted a couple of pages back or head back to the store.

Jay S.

Can't go back to the store. They already lost about $100 shipping the TV out and returning it 3 times and they don't want to deal with me anymore. It is also well out of the return window. I don't think they should be losing money anyway because of Sony's defective product. They didn't make the TV, Sony did.

Where is your complaint line number? Who exactly does it reach at Sony? I'll post at the very begining of the thread of you like.

Thanks.
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Old 12-19-2006, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by NYC_Jeff View Post

I am an attorney and am thinking that something bigger needs to come of this. My $2,700 investment shouldn't be flawed from the get go with no recourse. I'm not going to sit here and live with this problem.

Any legal advice?
Can we take Sony to court, class action lawsuit or sue them with selling a a lemon?
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Old 12-19-2006, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC_Jeff View Post

Has anybody had any luck with getting an authorized Sony serviceperson to come out to their home? I have a 46v2500 (Oct build) with the clouding problem - not the worst example but bad enough to be annoying - and I opened a service ticket with Sony today. They told me to contact a local service center who would send a serviceman over to check the set out. I'm guessing this is their standard line and also that there's no real fix other than a new panel, which is also likely to be bad.

Oh, and FWIW the Sony service rep told me that this was the first he'd heard of the problem, to which my reply was "I find that very, very difficult to believe."

I am an attorney and am thinking that something bigger needs to come of this. My $2,700 investment shouldn't be flawed from the get go with no recourse. I'm not going to sit here and live with this problem.

ohhh, great! Exactly who I was looking for. I knew an attorney would eventally buy one of these defective sets. Do you have class action case experince?? I believe this is the only way that Sony will fix the problem.
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Old 12-19-2006, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by NYC_Jeff View Post

Has anybody had any luck with getting an authorized Sony serviceperson to come out to their home?

Yes, they came out, took my XBR2 to their shop. Five days later they brought it back, saying no problem exists, it is "normal." They were dismissive and didn't seem to comprehend or care what my problem was. As they were leaving after dropping my set off, I said, "I'll call you if it gets worse." His reply was to not even turn around, just waving and saying, "Yeah, yeah."

The one "authorized service tech" that came out NEVER SAW AN LCD TV BEFORE. He thought my CRT computer monitor was an LCD when I was showing him this thread and some pictures, with the glazed over look in his eyes. When he took my set to the shop, he said his Sony tech looked at it in the dark, giving me a "normal" verdict. Yes, my set is better than most here, but I still don't like viewing in a dark room. Maybe I am a little picky, but I've seen LCD's that don't have this problem, and I want one for the $3,000 I paid.
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Old 12-19-2006, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by miniz View Post

ohhh, great! Exactly who I was looking for. I knew an attorney would eventally buy one of these defective sets. Do you have class action case experince?? I believe this is the only way that Sony will fix the problem.

Unfortunately, I don't know anything about a class action lawsuit other than the basics I learned in law school. One thing I do know is that they often result in a bunch of attorneys making a lot of money while the plaintiffs get a nice consolation prize, like $75 their next Sony purchase, lol. However, it might be the way to go with this problem should Sony not rectify the clouding issue. The thing is that it's a hell of a big job and one that would likely require several attorneys to deal with because discovery on a case like this could involve hundreds of manhours sifting through memos, emails and other paperwork trying to figure out if and when Sony became aware of the problem.

Oh, I also remember some people asking about how they could "serve" Sony should they file a small claims case. Most large corporations have another company they use as a local service agent. I.e., Serviceco or whatever its called is authorized by Sony to accept service of legal documents. So it should be fairly easy to serve Sony wherever you may live.

As an aside, did anybody else notice that there's no way to post a user opinion on the v2500 on Shopper.com? How very, very interesting...........
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:07 PM
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Bst thing to do right now is for everyone to post reviews (if not already done) at pricegrabber, CC, BB, Crutch, Abt, B&H, J+R, CNET if they have such, etc. Great thread, but to really get voices heard the big retailers/pricing engines need input.

AVS comes up on Google but its still not quite mainstream, though it should be required reading while electronics shopping for TV's, PJ's, etc.
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by miniz View Post

Can't go back to the store. They already lost about $100 shipping the TV out and returning it 3 times and they don't want to deal with me anymore. It is also well out of the return window. I don't think they should be losing money anyway because of Sony's defective product. They didn't make the TV, Sony did.

Where is your complaint line number? Who exactly does it reach at Sony? I'll post at the very begining of the thread of you like.

Thanks.

Posted it here.. Came from someone in SXRD forum...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...12#post9199612

I suppose it can't hurt to call...

Jay S.
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NYC_Jeff View Post

Unfortunately, I don't know anything about a class action lawsuit other than the basics I learned in law school. One thing I do know is that they often result in a bunch of attorneys making a lot of money while the plaintiffs get a nice consolation prize, like $75 their next Sony purchase, lol. However, it might be the way to go with this problem should Sony not rectify the clouding issue. The thing is that it's a hell of a big job and one that would likely require several attorneys to deal with because discovery on a case like this could involve hundreds of manhours sifting through memos, emails and other paperwork trying to figure out if and when Sony became aware of the problem.

I want to do exactly what a group of consumers did with their defective Sony CRT rear projection sets a couple years back. They banded together, gathered evidence, made a great case and won. Sony was forced to provide at no cost:
1.) a repair kit installed free of charge to every single TV affected
2.) 4 year extended warranty on every single TV affected
3.) reconize that they had a serious problem with their products

I don't want discounts on their products, I want the defect-free HDTV that I paid for and I want the truth. Not some bunch of lies about how this is "normal" or "we have never seen this before". Sony needs to pay for this mistake.
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Old 12-19-2006, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Could we at least get an attorney to write a formal letter to Sony advising them of the problems and what will happen to Sony if they fail to fix this issue?
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pamelasue1009 View Post


I am dying to buy the xbr2....but am afraid of the results, when even SONY does not recognize the problem!!


ESPECIALLY when Sony does not recognize this issue as a problem!

GT: irunnoft
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by likev View Post

You probably have "FULL PIXEL" enabled. That will display the full source. as it comes in from that particular channel. Most Non.HD Channels (even some HD-Channels) do not fill the entire screen so you'll see some colors or garbage at the top or on the side. The only way to avoid this is to change change FULL PIXEL to NORMAL which will essentially ZOOM the screen in slightly and cut off some of the picture around the edges. I personally don't care and leave mine at FULL PIXEL all the time. After a while you don't even notice it. This is not a defect in the set. I'm glad Sony offers the "FULL PIXEL" option so you get the full picture as it comes from the source. (Great for HD sources).

Thanks for the suggestion, but unfortunately I am in NORMAL mode. Any other thoughts?

Coupled with the clouds, I really think I got a defective set. I also tried changing the source from the S3 TiVo to the SA 8300HD, and the results were the same. What could be causing the multiple rows of darker pixels?

I'm sooo mad right now
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:50 PM
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Here's a suggestion:

For those who are posting for the first time and that have a cloudy set, please try to include your month of manufacture and the serial number.

Assuming that Sony covertly corrects the problem, I'm guessing that all of a sudden we'll notice a certain month missing from those being named or listed as troublesome. In other words, if January have been fixed, we ought not to see first time posters commenting on cloudy sets from that production run.

GT: irunnoft
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Old 12-19-2006, 06:48 PM
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I need to preface this post by saying I have a 46V2500, not an XBR. The reviews I tried to post online were for the 46V2500.

That said, my CNET review is not posted. My Amazon.com review is not posted. Amazon did post my screen shots and the blank input screen shot clearly shows the mura clouds. It's funny to me that at work today when I looked at the posted pics, the shot looked clean. When I turned off the lights in my office, I could see the clouds. Here at home, the computer room is less well lit and I looked at the posted blank screen shot and I could clearly see the clouds.

Anyway, my set's defects minimally affect viewing. However, I put in a service ticket and a tech is supposed to call and come out to see the set.
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Sony Bravia S Series Kdl 40s2010 40 Inch Lcd Hdtv , Sony Bravia W Series Kdl 46w5100 46 Inch Lcd Hdtv , Sony Bravia Xbr Kdl 52xbr4 52 Inch 1080p Lcd Hdtv , Lcd Hdtv
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