Official Samsung LN-TXX61F/65F/66F Owner's Thread III - with *updated* first post. - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 10:29 AM
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That Apple guy still around?

LINK

"The lawsuit claims that Apple's laptop screens are not as good as advertised to be:

Citing observances that MacBook (Pro) displays are too often "grainy" and "sparkly", that Apple uses dithering to achieve higher color depths than is feasible for the equipment, and that apparently customers seeking repair or replacement were rebuffed, even "chastised" by rogue Geniuses, telling users they are "too picky about... the quality of the display."

You would think a small laptop screen would be easy to make.

Ok, back to the Sammy show.

Samsung 4665f 1028/1008 flawless
Xbox 360 Elite
PS3
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onkyo 605
panamax filtration
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post #452 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by axmode View Post

Hello all...

P.S. I was looking to exchange for a 4665 model. Any tips on what bulid dates and S/N, I should be looking for? (will be going back to BB and will pay the extra for the added peace of mind)
.

To follow up to my prior post #447, any help on this info would be greatly appreciated. TIA.

Samsung: 52" 850 / 46" 61 / 40" 61 / PS3 / BD-P1500 / A3 HD-DVD / Format Neutral
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post #453 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david09 View Post

Just to add to the boatload of info in this thread, I'll share my impressions on my new Samsung 4661f. That might serve as therapy at the same time.

To be blunt, I'm disapointed, but I think it's a matter of not liking this technology rather than this specific set, so please don't get too defensive on what I'm going to say, as it likely applies to many other sets / brands / imaging technologies.

This is my first HDTV, I had a JVC 32" CRT before, and I feel the downgrade moving to LCD on some aspects of the picture for a $3000 CND TV is unacceptable, but that's just me.

The colors and high resolution on HD content are fantastic, no complaints there. But the black detail and overall dynamic range is quite poor. Everyone was raving about how black the Samsungs could get. Yeah sure, if you don't mind not seeing a thing in the darker scenes but clipped blacks with no chromatic and tonal information whatsoever. If you want to actually see near black areas of the frame and their content, you'll have to turn the brightness level up quite a bit, to the point where you have grey blacks. I have tweaked the settings to no avail, there is no way around it, it's an either or situation. So which is more important? Deep blacks or black detail? At this price point, I'm baffled that I have to choose.

My second big grip is with SD content. I'm sorry but it is nothing short of ugly. I've heard comments about the HD sets showing the imperfections in the SD signal, therefore making it look worse. This is inacurate. Comparing side by side with my CRT, I can see that the biggest problem is resolution loss, which has nothing to do with the set showing how much junk is in a SD signal. The upconversion step either from the cable box (Explorer 8300HD) or TV softens the image so much that it feels like I'm watching SD content on a cheap 20 year old CRT TV. I'm a big hockey fan and this is quite a concern for me because I just watched a game in SD resolution and it was plain mediocre. The enjoyment is gone. I was getting a crisp and detailed image on the CRT, but the 4661f was providing a muddy, artifact filled, soft and overall piss poor rendition of the broadcast.

My final grip is motion blur. There is indeed motion blur, quite apparent in a hockey game, especially in HD where the sharp image when not moving much contrasts dramatically with the blured image with fast movement, and while less of an issue to me, it is yet still something more to be puzzled about. And for the ones wondering, yes, I do know what motion blur is quite well, I shoot videos for a living, and I'm quite familiar with all the visual elements I'm speaking about here.

What happened on the market place so that when 5-10 years ago $1500 would get you the very best the industry had to offer in terms of picture quality and technology, which at the time was CRT, now doubling that amount will get you a downgrade on almost every aspect of picture quality but resolution on HD content and maybe color rendition?

I mean this is an owner's thread for specific models so I'm posting my impressions here since I'm a 4661f owner, but I feel this extends to all the current LCD / plasma models out there from what I've seen in store.

Now after all that, you must be wondering why the heck did I buy it if a hate it so much? Well first of all I don't hate it, I'm passionate about the fact I had much higher expectations due to price point and the fact technology is supposed to go forward, not take steps backward in some areas and forwards in others. I feel that on lots of things (motion blur, upconversion quality, dynamic range, etc.) this technology as well as plasma is a step or two backwards.

But I also know that I needed something smaller to go into my small living room, so retro or front projector solutions weren't an option, and since I'm meeting clients at home for video previewing, I also welcomed the bling factor of this kind of set to show the clients the final product on. They, contrary to me, will not be concerned or even notice most of the time the problems I'm speaking of here.

Anyways, I'm not going to bring it back and start testing dozens of models in a frantic search for the perfect TV. Simply because from all I've read and seen in store, this is the best flat panel TV this kind of money could buy me (and that's the scary thing). I also see some of the other concerns that have been expressed such as clouding, uneven lighting, overscan, etc. But to me, those are non-factors. These are the kind of minimal imperfections I can live with any time. Dynamic range, softness and motion blur however, harder to ignore.

I'm going to wait for the technology to mature to the point where I can get a dynamic range that at least rivals the best CRTs out there. Maybe the new LED TVs will be it, but from this techology switch experience, I remain very sceptical. I have a Samsung 275T LCD monitor for computing which I enjoy and appreciate very much, but TV / movie watching has other requirements, and I feel LCD cannot meet them at this point in time, nor can plasma (burn-ins, wha?!? And we accept to pay thousands of dollars for a disposable TV? Boy we're real suckers aren't we?).

How long did you have your tv for? Did you go to the calibration thread and calibrate your TV properly? If you haven't yet returned your TV I would strongly consider doing this. The HD viewing experience on the LN-T series is excellent. I'm a big hockey fan and I find the hockey excellent with minimal artifacts. I find that you need a good feed to have a good HD hockey experience. In my area, it seems to vary from game to game.

To be honest, I'm not sure why someone would pay $3K to purchase an HD set to watch SD feed.
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post #454 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david09 View Post

But the black detail and overall dynamic range is quite poor. Everyone was raving about how black the Samsungs could get. Yeah sure, if you don't mind not seeing a thing in the darker scenes but clipped blacks with no chromatic and tonal information whatsoever. If you want to actually see near black areas of the frame and their content, you'll have to turn the brightness level up quite a bit, to the point where you have grey blacks. I have tweaked the settings to no avail, there is no way around it, it's an either or situation. So which is more important? Deep blacks or black detail? At this price point, I'm baffled that I have to choose.

I'm surprised at this, when I compared my Samsung LNT4661f to my Toshiba 35" CRT TV, I was able to get good black display from the Samsung, at least as good as the CRT. What settings are you using? In particular, what are Brightness, Backlight, DNIe, Black Adjust, Dynamic Contrast, Energy Save, and HDMI Black Level set to?
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post #455 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohms View Post

To be honest, I'm not sure why someone would pay $3K to purchase an HD set to watch SD feed.

I don't know why someone would pay $3k when Amazon has it for $2250, shipping included!
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post #456 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axmode View Post

To follow up to my prior post #447, any help on this info would be greatly appreciated. TIA.


After returning my first set and having the same problem with my second (even worse) I asked that question of the tech support guy. Which units display the least amount of problems? He said I would have to go farther up the food chain than him to get an answer to that, so I will call back during the week when they are there.

You could give them a call and ask as well.

Tech support has been awesome, they admit a problem and even recommend getting my money back before it is too late. There may and probably will be a fix but no one knows exactly when.

I just hope there is a Samsung that I can get because they have really stood behind their product IMHO anyways.

Snorf
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post #457 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorf View Post

Well I exchanged my 4665f for a new one and the new one seems to be worse! The panel alignment is much better but the drop outs through the HDMI inputs is horrible, and more dead / stuck pixels. Only watched it for a couple of hours and had to reboot the tv twice and many green and magenta flashes.

Whats up samsung?

It isn't my source either, I have 2 pieces plugged into the HDMI plugs and it happens on both.

I am really depressed, I guess I will get on the phone with Samsung and ask them what I should do.

Snorf

I've got a PS3 in HDMI 1, and an upconverting DVD player in HDMI 2. No green or magenta flashes, and it seems to handle it fine? What pieces do you have for your source?
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post #458 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimix View Post

Wiselink question - I know in the manual that it says that the wiselink can only be used with photos and mp3 - but watching an AVI or MPG would be really cool with a flash drive. Has anybody been able to do this or come up with a way to do this??

thanks

Mark

You can't play back avi or mpg via wiseling.... but that's why I plug my laptop into the Sammy.
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post #459 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohms View Post

How long did you have your tv for? Did you go to the calibration thread and calibrate your TV properly? If you haven't yet returned your TV I would strongly consider doing this. The HD viewing experience on the LN-T series is excellent. I'm a big hockey fan and I find the hockey excellent with minimal artifacts. I find that you need a good feed to have a good HD hockey experience. In my area, it seems to vary from game to game.

To be honest, I'm not sure why someone would pay $3K to purchase an HD set to watch SD feed.

Did the calibration with the help of the calibration thread. Had the TV for about 2 weeks.

HD viewing is good obviously, at least in terms of resolution, There's a wow factor to it everybody enjoys, but there aren't that many channels in HD, so of course when I have the choice of listening to a game in HD I'll choose HD, but when it's not on, I have to fall back on regular SD TV. Same logic applies for all the other shows I watch. Luckily for me, the hockey team I follow will have 42 games in HD next year (all home games).
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post #460 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 12:24 PM
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I saw the 4661 and 4665 side by side at Best Buy today. Both looked good but the 4665 looked noticeably better. Of course, who knows how they calibrated them. Should there be really noticeable differences in their picture quality?
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post #461 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 12:24 PM
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PS3 in HDMI 1, DVD in HDMI 2, tried computer with these as well HDMI 3.

Tried all together in different inputs and tried them seperately in each input.

hardware 1004
software 101

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post #462 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post

I'm surprised at this, when I compared my Samsung LNT4661f to my Toshiba 35" CRT TV, I was able to get good black display from the Samsung, at least as good as the CRT. What settings are you using? In particular, what are Brightness, Backlight, DNIe, Black Adjust, Dynamic Contrast, Energy Save, and HDMI Black Level set to?

Bellow 65 in brightness I find I lose way too much information in the darker areas (black suits on a dim lighting seting, darker hairs, etc). I was watching Black Hawk Down the other day and bellow this value all I could see was solid black blobs in the darker areas. There is definitelly a case of black clipping going on here (in that bellow a certain value everything is solid black).

Backlight varies. Backlight value of 1 to 5 depending on the content I'm watching (and time of day). DNIe off. Black adjust high, Dynamic contrast low, Energy save auto, HDMI low. Also tried fiddling with the gamma with very little improvement. Currently at -1. xvYCC off.

Those values have all been ajusted with one idea in mind, getting the best compromise between black depth and detail. I found I was able to get a better picture by adjusting everything with the xvYCC off than on.

I find the gamma curve a bit weird, in that there's a rapid falloff from near black to black, and that's where the problem comes from. It doesn't look as natural a falloff as a CRT set, so it draws attention to it.
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post #463 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axmode View Post

To follow up to my prior post #447, any help on this info would be greatly appreciated. TIA.


I bought my 4665f at best buy little over a week ago and got a 1022/1005 model with no issues. Very happy. We havent figured the s/n stuff out yet as s/n starting with AJ have been 1004 and 1005 board versions. Good luck.

Samsung 4665f 1028/1008 flawless
Xbox 360 Elite
PS3
8300HD
onkyo 605
panamax filtration
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post #464 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 01:25 PM
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David, I know I am probably going to hear some flack for this suggestion, but if I were you, I would get the new 50 inch 1080p Panasonic 50PZ700. I had one before getting this 4665f and I still think it has the best HD picture I have seen. I only went lcd because I use my display more for computer than tv. But its a beautiful set...SD looks better on it as well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by david09 View Post

Bellow 65 in brightness I find I lose way too much information in the darker areas (black suits on a dim lighting seting, darker hairs, etc). I was watching Black Hawk Down the other day and bellow this value all I could see was solid black blobs in the darker areas. There is definitelly a case of black clipping going on here (in that bellow a certain value everything is solid black).

Backlight varies. Backlight value of 1 to 5 depending on the content I'm watching (and time of day). DNIe off. Black adjust high, Dynamic contrast low, Energy save auto, HDMI low. Also tried fiddling with the gamma with very little improvement. Currently at -1. xvYCC off.

Those values have all been ajusted with one idea in mind, getting the best compromise between black depth and detail. I found I was able to get a better picture by adjusting everything with the xvYCC off than on.

I find the gamma curve a bit weird, in that there's a rapid falloff from near black to black, and that's where the problem comes from. It doesn't look as natural a falloff as a CRT set, so it draws attention to it.


Samsung 4665f 1028/1008 flawless
Xbox 360 Elite
PS3
8300HD
onkyo 605
panamax filtration
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post #465 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 01:38 PM
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Norse this is a Samsung thread, not sure why you are suggesting users here to buy a Panasonic (and that model you mention I think has very sub-standard picture quality).
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post #466 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 01:56 PM
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He can recommend whatever he wants...what do you care? Are you the thread police?

CD

Reality Based.
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post #467 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norse View Post

David, I know I am probably going to hear some flack for this suggestion, but if I were you, I would get the new 50 inch 1080p Panasonic 50PZ700. I had one before getting this 4665f and I still think it has the best HD picture I have seen. I only went lcd because I use my display more for computer than tv. But its a beautiful set...SD looks better on it as well.

I don't have the room to get a 50" (I know, it sounds weird considering I have a 46", but I have a very tight space in my living room where the TV goes).

Also, I have crossed the plasma option from my list a long while ago. As a consumer that doesn't like throwing his money out the window, I simply cannot accept that after some time of usage, I might or might not wake up to a permanently faint burned-in NBC logo in the bottom right of my screen, or something of this nature. This technology is not reliable enough for me to fork the thousands of dollars it would cost to get the quality I am looking for.

Maybe part of the solution down the road would be to get a dedicated HD upconverter to get the best quality picture from my SD signals. If I'm lucky I can get one off eBay for a reasonable price.

Right now my biggest concern as far as SD is concerned is hockey, as it is unwatchable, but between all the sports channels in HD in my area, I figure I can manage to catch 75% of the games in HD, so I'll live with it. I'm watching one right now on TSN. Nice stuff, HD is definitelly how you want to watch a hockey game.
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post #468 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 02:15 PM
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I am watching golf and everything is green! What the hell?!?!

Just joking...let's keep things light...it's a TV!

To homs: Try the suggested calibrations but play around with them. I agree with you that some SD content is horrible. I have the same set up you do and certain channels are better on my 27'' Sony Trinitron in the bedroom. On the other hand, all HD content is beautiful. Like hockey??? Watch it on CBC in HD...it's amazing!

Wanna get rid of the green...don't use WARM...I've got my set on Normal and adjusted the colors and whites accordingly. My black is really black (no difference between my side bars and the screen if you know what I mean)
To be honest, I am still playing with some settings but definitely normal is the way to go for me.

Question for all you guys: what is the best way to get a better detailed image without screwing up colors?
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post #469 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 02:23 PM
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When I turn xvYCC on, everything is blue? Why is that?
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post #470 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norse View Post

I bought my 4665f at best buy little over a week ago and got a 1022/1005 model with no issues. Very happy. We havent figured the s/n stuff out yet as s/n starting with AJ have been 1004 and 1005 board versions. Good luck.


I was in Frys today and there may be some good news here. There was a secondary sticker on the box that had both the 1022 and 1005 numbers on it along with a bar code. It's smaller than the main sticker, but this might be an easy way to tell what you get before opening it/taking it home
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post #471 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 02:28 PM
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[quote=david09]
Maybe part of the solution down the road would be to get a dedicated HD upconverter to get the best quality picture from my SD signals. /QUOTE]

David, the set you want is...

http://www.olevia.com/jsp/products/detail.jsp?pid=747i

The SD quality is the best there is currently. Olevia uses the SiliconOptix Realta processor for upconverting SD.

CD

Reality Based.
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post #472 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonCzar View Post

Interested in how your Universal remote is working out. I also was loking into Harmony but your post caught my attention. Only using Comcast DVR, 4661 and Oppo 981 at present but want just 1 remote and Oppo does not support code for Comcast. I know this is off topic so to stay with the thread my 4661 1022/1005 will be 2 weeks old Monday and I still have not experienced any of the dropouts or flashes.

So far the Universal Remote is making me question my need for anything else. It doesn't support uploading of codes from the PC, but it was so easy to program it and have it learn other remotes that I don't think I am too worried about that. The one possible drawback is that it can learn IR and send RF signals to it's repeater that converts the signal to IR for the component, BUT it cannot do the same with components that are RF only. So in shopping for those I need to make sure they support IR or I would need to look into a conversion from RF to IR and back to RF.

So far I am quite pleased.
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post #473 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 02:35 PM
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Does anyone know if the samsung 5265F would fit on the tv pedestal bracket which is made for up to 50 inches. Most tv stand are made for 50 inch TV's and the samsung is 52 inches. Can someone who owns the samsung 52 inch post mounting dimentions (the distance between of the screws in the back of the TV). I know the mounting distance on the 46 inch sansung is 24 inches or 2 feet. thanks for the help.
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post #474 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by grom1 View Post

Does anyone know if the samsung 5265F would fit on the tv pedestal bracket which is made for up to 50 inches. Most tv stand are made for 50 inch TV's and the samsung is 52 inches. Can someone who owns the samsung 52 inch post mounting dimentions (the distance between of the screws in the back of the TV). I know the mounting distance on the 46 inch sansung is 24 inches or 2 feet. thanks for the help.


Mounting screws are 24 inches apart horizontally and 16 inches vertically.
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post #475 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 02:48 PM
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That model he recommended sucks, just want to let other users here know that as it's a bad move to buy the television. And I'm a caring guy. *HUGS*

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Originally Posted by Cattledog View Post

He can recommend whatever he wants...what do you care? Are you the thread police?

CD

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post #476 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 02:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cattledog View Post

Maybe part of the solution down the road would be to get a dedicated HD upconverter to get the best quality picture from my SD signals. /QUOTE]

David, the set you want is...

http://www.olevia.com/jsp/products/detail.jsp?pid=747i

The SD quality is the best there is currently. Olevia uses the SiliconOptix Realta processor for upconverting SD.

CD

He won't like the contrast level.

Also, to expect LCD technology (which is just beyond its infancy) to match the best that CRT (40+ years of improvements) offers is a fruitless expectation, IMO.
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post #477 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyspaul View Post

Mounting screws are 24 inches apart horizontally and 16 inches vertically.

Thanks garyspaul you are the man. So it is the same as 46 inch samsung.
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post #478 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 03:22 PM
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[quote=vinnie97]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cattledog View Post

He won't like the contrast level.

Also, to expect LCD technology (which is just beyond its infancy) to match the best that CRT (40+ years of improvements) offers is a fruitless expectation, IMO.


I have the SA 8300 box. I set the picture format to only put out 1080i and I have to say it takes care of all the upconverting...so far it looks better then my previous settings: 480p, 720p, 1080i which made the SD (on some channels) horrible.
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post #479 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 03:28 PM
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Hey Everyone:

I am also looking at SD content. I love the new Samsungs, but they really lack in the SD arena. I have looked at Olevia, but their HD is not nearly as nice as Samsung, and the largest set available is only 47 inches (I want 52 or bigger). Can someone explain to me this converter that helps SD? Below is my experience at BB today, please help with any suggestions possible.

Ok, so I went and looked at the SD content on some LCD tv's today. My choices today were Samsung and Sharp. I went to BB, and I have to say, the SD content on both sets was better than one would be lead to believe on the forums, but certainly not great. One channel on the Samsung (looked at both 4661 and 4665, they did not have a 52 inch) looked terrible. It seemed to be void of reds and whites and was just one big blur of green and blue. But another channel with a Hockey game playing looked very watchable (i was informed it was a digital channel). The Aquos (I believe it was the 82u) also looked alright on the SD channels. The HD on all the sets did not look incredibly impressive, as there was a fair amount of pixalation, so I assume that is due to the multiple splitting of the source. The salesperson commented on a few things that I would like to get answered in here:

1). He said the SD channels were OTA, and that Directv (I have Directv HD with an HD DVR), being digital, would give me a better picture than the SD OTA channels. Now, I know from on here that usually the OTA HD channels are better than Directv HD channels, so one would assume the SD would be better OTA also,,,,can anyone comment on that?

2). He said that Plasma would give me a better picture in SD than LCD. He then showed me the SD on the Samsung 50" plasma (didnt get the model #) and compared it to the SD on the Samsung 4661F. Quite frankly the 4661F looked better, lol. We were watching the Hockey game, and that is when he claimed "well this is a good digital channel. If I could get a standard channel (I assume like the green/blue channel as I call it now) you would see how much better the plasma is for regular SD."

3). Since he had a higher regard for Plasma, at least in the SD mode, I asked him about burn in, particularly black-bar burn in from watching SD. He showed me how the Samsung had an anti-burn in function that scanned the screen to eliminate burnin, and even fix it if it happened. So I ask you, if you had burnin, would this truely work?

4). I then asked him the lighted room question, i.e. plasma looks great in darkened rooms, but not so much in well lit rooms. He then went on about glare, which we all know about, but also said it was really a toss up, because although most of the LCD's are matte finish instead of glass (well, except for the 4665), that LCD's tend to wash out in light. Hmmmm, I thought the washout arguement was the one made against plasma's, not LCD's, but I didnt argue with him.

I have been pretty much stuck on LCD's over Plasmas, and, after seeing the plasma screens, I still like the LCD's better. They are so much brighter and more detailed. But any answers to my questions above would be appreciated, particularly as it pertains to SD, as I would still like to have a decent SD picture (better than the one I saw today).

52" Samsung 750, finally satisfaction
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post #480 of 19613 Old 05-20-2007, 03:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANT_1 View Post



I have the SA 8300 box. I set the picture format to only put out 1080i and I have to say it takes care of all the upconverting...so far it looks better then my previous settings: 480p, 720p, 1080i which made the SD (on some channels) horrible.

Cool. My second comment with regards to comparing LCDs to CRTs was actually in relation to PQ in general (not just scaler quality).
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