Official Sony W3000 Series Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #271 of 3238 Old 08-11-2007, 09:53 AM
Newbie
 
stepscot2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I just had my 46W3000 delivered yesterday from CC. A little background: I have gone through two 46V2500's in the past several months- one had flashlights in the corners, and the other had bad clouds. Great TV otherwise, but I couldn't stand watching movies at night because the defects were so distracting. I finally got fed up with that model, and traded up for the W3000.

A couple of thoughts on my new TV:

*Contrast and blacks are also noticably better than the 2500. The increased range of this panel makes a difference.

*The brushed metal frame is much classier than I thought it would be. In fact, I think it's downright gorgeous, and the gf agrees. This should be the design of the XBR's, not the floating glass.

*The PC- VGA input accepts 1080p signal from my XBox 360 without complaining at all. Upscaled standard DVD's played through the 360 look amazing. If you have a 360 (and not the Elite with HDMI out) I recommend you hook up via VGA.

*I was biting my nails as the sun went down last night. Would the clouds come out? Would there be some sort of horrible flaw that would dominate my attention and make me unhappy with the new TV? I'm happy to report that I have a perfect panel- uniform, deep blacks from corner to corner. I'm thrilled.



In summary, I finally have ended my quest for the perfect TV for me- this one is a keeper. The design, performance, and price of the W3000 hits all of the sweet spots. Thanks to all the good posters at AVS who have kept me informed through the whole process, and I wish y'all luck finding the right TV for you.
stepscot2 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #272 of 3238 Old 08-11-2007, 10:40 AM
Member
 
rswmkw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: MA
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am wondering if anyone could tell me why the new Sony 46W would be be a better choice than the Samsung LN-T 4661F. I have read all the threads is it really worth the extra money to buy the Sony 46W3000. Any help would greatly be appreciated
rswmkw is offline  
post #273 of 3238 Old 08-11-2007, 12:42 PM
Advanced Member
 
tombaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex the Great View Post


WoW, here we go 1920 x 1080p at 23.97/24Hz !!!
But, computer interface shows "Interlaced" signal (picture #1 Force Wave 93.71).
At the same time TV set shows 1080p signal (picture #2).

I found this situation extremely confusing. Any comments are welcome!!!

EDIT: ForceWave 162.18 has the same issue. Driver reports "i24", TV reports "p24". BTW I played 1080p24 movie on the computer in 24p mode and TV could display it without any pooldown - just as it is!

I think this is just a labeling issue.

was is 1080P, its 1920 x 1080 by 60 fps
1920 x 1080 half frame every 60 seconds....then combined to be full frame at 30fps....thats 1080i

you are displaying the full frame every 24 seconds. You can call it 1080P x 24 fps or you can call it 1080i

what is the difference between a half dozen...and 6?
tombaker is offline  
post #274 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 12:44 AM
Member
 
quyen51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkinsoldier View Post

Are you really sure about this? Do you have any proof for this? Its just that i heard the V and W Series are accepting and showing native p24. Doing an internal 3:2 pulldown would be no solution for the judder problem of course...

I hope you are correct because I thought a set with 60 Hz refresh can't display 1080p24 signal without processing it, hance the 3:2 pulldown. Can't wait for CNET to review either the V or W3000 and tell us how it really handles 1080p24 native signal.
quyen51 is offline  
post #275 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 01:14 AM
Senior Member
 
bsd107's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 457
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by quyen51 View Post

I hope you are correct because I thought a set with 60 Hz refresh can't display 1080p24 signal without processing it, hance the 3:2 pulldown. Can't wait for CNET to review either the V or W3000 and tell us how it really handles 1080p24 native signal.

A couple of weeks ago I was talking to a manager at a local SonyStyle store, and he had just been trained on the new TVs coming out. We were discussing Motionflow, DRC, etc. He did confirm that even the XBR4/5 doesn't actually display true 24p, but does the standard 60Hz conversion, then applies Motionflow to get it to 120Hz.

Not too surprising, really, that all the 1st gen 120Hz panels are doing this. Cheaper to implement the 120Hz feature this way if you are simply tacking it onto existing TV's that are already converting everything to 60Hz.

I agree that this is very disappointing, though...

One thing I will say is that support of 24p input should finally make Sony's 3:2 pulldown detection work properly, by taking the "detection" out of the equation when it receives a 24p signal via HDMI. Sony's have had some of the worst reputations for having Cinemotion features that just plain to not properly detect most 3:2 signals....
bsd107 is offline  
post #276 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 05:31 AM
Member
 
sudz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsd107 View Post

One thing I will say is that support of 24p input should finally make Sony's 3:2 pulldown detection work properly, by taking the "detection" out of the equation when it receives a 24p signal via HDMI. Sony's have had some of the worst reputations for having Cinemotion features that just plain to not properly detect most 3:2 signals....

In a roundabout way even though it doesn't do 1080:24P properly consumers may recieve a benefit anyway. It has been a fair bit of time since thes sets have been released we are all eagerly waiting for someone to do a review/test of the new Sony's.
sudz is offline  
post #277 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 06:42 AM
Member
 
SonyPointGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsd107 View Post

A couple of weeks ago I was talking to a manager at a local SonyStyle store, and he had just been trained on the new TVs coming out. We were discussing Motionflow, DRC, etc. He did confirm that even the XBR4/5 doesn't actually display true 24p, but does the standard 60Hz conversion, then applies Motionflow to get it to 120Hz.

Not too surprising, really, that all the 1st gen 120Hz panels are doing this. Cheaper to implement the 120Hz feature this way if you are simply tacking it onto existing TV's that are already converting everything to 60Hz.

I agree that this is very disappointing, though...

One thing I will say is that support of 24p input should finally make Sony's 3:2 pulldown detection work properly, by taking the "detection" out of the equation when it receives a 24p signal via HDMI. Sony's have had some of the worst reputations for having Cinemotion features that just plain to not properly detect most 3:2 signals....

My SonyStyle guy said the opposite, that it actually shows 24p. Even on a W you can see a difference between a 24p and 60 signal, and it doesn't have motion flow.

I wish Sony would put out a tech bulletin on what is really going on here.

Mark
SonyPointGuy is offline  
post #278 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 07:12 AM
Senior Member
 
Alex the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 334
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsd107 View Post

A couple of weeks ago I was talking to a manager at a local SonyStyle store, and he had just been trained on the new TVs coming out. We were discussing Motionflow, DRC, etc. He did confirm that even the XBR4/5 doesn't actually display true 24p, but does the standard 60Hz conversion, then applies Motionflow to get it to 120Hz.

Not too surprising, really, that all the 1st gen 120Hz panels are doing this. Cheaper to implement the 120Hz feature this way if you are simply tacking it onto existing TV's that are already converting everything to 60Hz.

I agree that this is very disappointing, though...

One thing I will say is that support of 24p input should finally make Sony's 3:2 pulldown detection work properly, by taking the "detection" out of the equation when it receives a 24p signal via HDMI. Sony's have had some of the worst reputations for having Cinemotion features that just plain to not properly detect most 3:2 signals....

Hey, am I wasting my time here? Go and read my post with Moninfo. W has native support of 24p signal via HDMI. No pulldown (or 1:1 pulldown if you will). Confirmed.
Alex the Great is offline  
post #279 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 07:29 AM
Senior Member
 
Alex the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 334
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombaker View Post

I think this is just a labeling issue.

was is 1080P, its 1920 x 1080 by 60 fps
1920 x 1080 half frame every 60 seconds....then combined to be full frame at 30fps....thats 1080i

you are displaying the full frame every 24 seconds. You can call it 1080P x 24 fps or you can call it 1080i

what is the difference between a half dozen...and 6?

Your explanation is not correct (actually not related to the question), but do not worry, I've found the answer. I've been told that historically computers recognize any signal with low FPS progressive signal as 'interlaced'. This is just a labeling issue. So 1080p24 signal can be sent by computer and natively displayed by Sony W HDTVs as 1080p24.
Final answer!

Case closed!

Please, NO more speculations!
Alex the Great is offline  
post #280 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 10:53 AM
Member
 
leetye62's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am very happy with my tv.There is no issue with clouds.720p when is upconvert is not the best while 1080i looks the best.Uniform blacks.No handshake with my PS3 to the tv.
I watched the PGA Golf.Nice colors using vivid,bit bright.No problem watchig NFL football.
BD looks great,standard video okay and component okay.
PS3 games looks great.
leetye62 is offline  
post #281 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 11:04 AM
Newbie
 
Linkinsoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
i heared the new sonys are displaying p24 at 72 hz like the pio's do!

I hope they do, because the pio's do a great job!
Linkinsoldier is offline  
post #282 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 02:28 PM
Senior Member
 
bsd107's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 457
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonyPointGuy View Post

My SonyStyle guy said the opposite, that it actually shows 24p. Even on a W you can see a difference between a 24p and 60 signal, and it doesn't have motion flow.

I wish Sony would put out a tech bulletin on what is really going on here.

Mark

The difference on the W, which has been noted by others here (and I'm not disputing it) could simply be to the W not properly doing 3:2 pulldown when it receives a 60Hz signal.

Unfortunately (and I am a Sony fan), there are lots of reports from reviewers and testers where it has been observed that the Cinemotion detection usually does not work properly on various Sony TV's. This even applies to the 5200ES receiver with iDCD upscaler!

Don't get me wrong - I think 24p input capability is great, as it ensures that there will be no pulldown detection failures.

I agree - I'd love to see a Sony bulletin on this. I have to say, if it really was displaying in true 24p format, you'd think Sony would be trumpeting this. The fact that they are only talking about it receiving 24p signals (and no talk about what is done later with it) makes it very suspect.
bsd107 is offline  
post #283 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 02:36 PM
Senior Member
 
bsd107's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 457
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex the Great View Post

Hey, am I wasting my time here? Go and read my post with Moninfo. W has native support of 24p signal via HDMI. No pulldown (or 1:1 pulldown if you will). Confirmed.

We are not debating that the W3000 will accept a 1080/24p signal. What we are debating is what the TV does with that signal before it displays it on the screen.

We are hoping that the display runs at 120Hz, and displays each frame 5 times. But, it is more likely that it is simply converting the 24p signal to 60Hz, and displaying at 60Hz.

There is a lot of discussion all over the web about 120Hz LCDs to reduce flicker. Some TV's (e.g. Sharp, Mitsubishi) use black frame insertion to reduce perceived flicker, which will reduce brightness. Others (Sony, Samsung, JVC, Toshiba) make a "fake" interpolated frame in-between every standard 60Hz frame, to reduce perceived flicker. (Personally, I'm not that thrilled about a HDTV screen running a beautiful high-def signal at 60Hz, then making up fake frames that will of course have reduced visual quality to slide in-between each one...)

Nobody to date has reported any 120Hz TV that actually does what were all hoping - i.e. using the 120Hz capability to display true 24p signals with effective 24 frames per second (by displaying each frame five times in a row). It just seems like this feature is not going to be in any of the current generation TV's...
bsd107 is offline  
post #284 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 02:52 PM
Senior Member
 
Alex the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 334
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsd107 View Post

The difference on the W, which has been noted by others here (and I'm not disputing it) could simply be to the W not properly doing 3:2 pulldown when it receives a 60Hz signal.

Unfortunately (and I am a Sony fan), there are lots of reports from reviewers and testers where it has been observed that the Cinemotion detection usually does not work properly on various Sony TV's. This even applies to the 5200ES receiver with iDCD upscaler!

Don't get me wrong - I think 24p input capability is great, as it ensures that there will be no pulldown detection failures.

I agree - I'd love to see a Sony bulletin on this. I have to say, if it really was displaying in true 24p format, you'd think Sony would be trumpeting this. The fact that they are only talking about it receiving 24p signals (and no talk about what is done later with it) makes it very suspect.

With all my respect I am not sure you understand what you are talking about. If 1080p60 signal has been sent to TV it is too late to do any pulldown because in this case the pulldown is already made by the source of the signal. Pulldown will be done by TV only if you feed it with 1080p24 signal but native support of this mode is OFF or absent.
W3000 has auto detection of 1080p24 signal and it is working properly at least with computer. It would be great if somebody with B-R or PS3 will be able to confirm it as well. But I do not expect any problems.
Alex the Great is offline  
post #285 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 02:57 PM
Senior Member
 
Alex the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 334
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsd107 View Post

We are not debating that the W3000 will accept a 1080/24p signal. What we are debating is what the TV does with that signal before it displays it on the screen.

We are hoping that the display runs at 120Hz, and displays each frame 5 times. But, it is more likely that it is simply converting the 24p signal to 60Hz, and displaying at 60Hz.

There is a lot of discussion all over the web about 120Hz LCDs to reduce flicker. Some TV's (e.g. Sharp, Mitsubishi) use black frame insertion to reduce perceived flicker, which will reduce brightness. Others (Sony, Samsung, JVC, Toshiba) make a "fake" interpolated frame in-between every standard 60Hz frame, to reduce perceived flicker. (Personally, I'm not that thrilled about a HDTV screen running a beautiful high-def signal at 60Hz, then making up fake frames that will of course have reduced visual quality to slide in-between each one...)

Nobody to date has reported any 120Hz TV that actually does what were all hoping - i.e. using the 120Hz capability to display true 24p signals with effective 24 frames per second (by displaying each frame five times in a row). It just seems like this feature is not going to be in any of the current generation TV's...

Excuse my, this is just BS. Sony never said that V or W will support 120 Hz. RTFM
Alex the Great is offline  
post #286 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 06:38 PM
Newbie
 
topshooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hello all, newbie here. I've been following this thread and joined today. I have on order from Sony the 52w3000. It should be here "on or around 8/31/07". Called Sony when the 52XBR4s went from preorder to in stock to see about changing my order to one of those. Rep said 25 52w3000s are expected in "Carson warehouse" (where ever that is) 8/17 and I will be getting one of those. I do not care for the floating glass design so I stayed with the 3000. I have been to the local CC and observed the 46w3000 and found it to be acceptable with an HD satellite feed. ESPN HD was on at the time on all sets on display and to my eye, the 3000 looked as good as or better than anything in the store. No XBR4s were available. I did notice some shudder in fast moving scenes, but it was noticeable in other makes/models as well (Panasonic, Samsung, Sharp). I saw no evidence of clouding. I'm crossing my fingers that I will be happy with my choice and will have no problems, but after reading some of these posts, I'm not so sure.
topshooter is offline  
post #287 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 06:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
necrolop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I dont think they are 120hz. But here is something curious.

Quote from W3000 page on SonyStyle:
"It makes sense that select 2007 BRAVIA TVs will include 24p input capability. The benefit? Images are smooth and natural looking. Once you experience 24p video it will be hard to view video without it."

If all the TV is doing is accepting 24p and using pullup to 60p, then its absolutely no different than if you allowed the BD player to do the pullup. Judder would still remain, you cant avoid 3:2 Cadence unless the frame rate is a multiple of 24, that is just a fact.

Saying they accept 24hz sources does not mean anything, thats just an extra convienience, but to claim that it will look better on a 60hz TV is a flat out lie and is false advertising.

CROPPED < OAR < OPEN MATTE -- OOOOH I SAID IT!
necrolop is offline  
post #288 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 08:23 PM
Senior Member
 
bsd107's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 457
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex the Great View Post

Excuse my, this is just BS. Sony never said that V or W will support 120 Hz. RTFM

I agree. But the XBR4/5 are 120Hz, and even they don't seem to display true 24p. So why in the world would the W3000 display 24p inputs at 24p (or a multiple of that)? That was my point.
bsd107 is offline  
post #289 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 08:26 PM
Senior Member
 
bsd107's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 457
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by necrolop View Post

I dont think they are 120hz. But here is something curious.

Quote from W3000 page on SonyStyle:
"It makes sense that select 2007 BRAVIA TVs will include 24p input capability. The benefit? Images are smooth and natural looking. Once you experience 24p video it will be hard to view video without it."

If all the TV is doing is accepting 24p and using pullup to 60p, then its absolutely no different than if you allowed the BD player to do the pullup. Judder would still remain, you cant avoid 3:2 Cadence unless the frame rate is a multiple of 24, that is just a fact.

Saying they accept 24hz sources does not mean anything, thats just an extra convienience, but to claim that it will look better on a 60hz TV is a flat out lie and is false advertising.

Yes, it seems like marketing at it's finest. Of course, they are not lying - the W3000 does accept 24p input.

It should look better than other Sony TV's that do not properly detect and implement 3:2 pulldown. But that's a lame reason to call it a new feature...
bsd107 is offline  
post #290 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 08:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
necrolop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It is a Lie.

Detection is not needed for a 1080p60 source, its ready to go. Detection is only needed for 1080i60 that is from a 24p source. So the fact is, 1080p24 pulled up and displayed at 60hz is absolutely no different than a incoming 1080p60 source displayed at 60hz.

This means that the W3000 is absolutely identical to say a V2500, other than the extra novelty and convienience. Sony is suggesting that it will look smoother, that is a absolute falisy and a blatant lie.

CROPPED < OAR < OPEN MATTE -- OOOOH I SAID IT!
necrolop is offline  
post #291 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 10:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
westa6969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: From Michigan now Retired to Naples, FL
Posts: 7,040
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by necrolop View Post

It is a Lie.

Detection is not needed for a 1080p60 source, its ready to go. Detection is only needed for 1080i60 that is from a 24p source. So the fact is, 1080p24 pulled up and displayed at 60hz is absolutely no different than a incoming 1080p60 source displayed at 60hz.

This means that the W3000 is absolutely identical to say a V2500, other than the extra novelty and convienience. Sony is suggesting that it will look smoother, that is a absolute falisy and a blatant lie.

B.S. I say you are in fact misinterpreting the facts of a native display of the benefit of 1080P24.

Back your statement up with facts and credentials - Sony has theirs on the table so what are yours Necro? Are you an AV Engineer and qualified to put forth your argument or is this Fluff? Post count means diddly squat if you don't have the credentials to interpret the feature better than the AV Engineers at the manufacturers. I suppose it's all marketing hype and nothing more? Horse Poohey! If you call it a lie give us the proof positive - fluff is hot air but do you work in the industry at all? If your going to call Sony a Liar don't you think you are responsible for proving your argument?

Do you realize we have a new owner of the A3000 that does 1080p/24 and he finds it a striking difference with Sony's feature and I suspect it will hold true with the other panels with the feature - previous to this only 2-3 panels in the entire industry could do it so don't pass it off as nothing. Why is it when you guys that are doubting Thomases always have empty member profiles with no credentials to support your hypothesis? Are you telling us you could go teach Sony how to do it right? Yeah sure! A six year old may be able to read a white paper but it doesn't mean they are qualified to interpret what it means.

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
westa6969 is offline  
post #292 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 10:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
necrolop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

I say you are in fact misinterpreting the facts of a native display of the benefit of 1080P24. Back you statement of with fact and credentials - Sony has theirs on the table so what are yours Necro? Are you an AV Engineer and qualified to put forth your argument or is this Fluff?

My only credentials are that I spend too much time on these here forums.

But Ill lay my cards out on the table for you, if you wish to counter my arguements, please do so.

Ok lets get started....

A film is 24 frames per second. A Tv is 60 frames persecond(on a progressive display as we have here). In order to get 24 to fit into 60, the first frame is shown twice, the second frame is shown 3 times.

11-222-33-444-55-666-77 and so on.
We all know this as pull up.
Since the effect is to make some frames last on screen longer than others, thus introducing time artifacts known as "judder".

Now the best way to fix this would be to display the 24p source at 24 fps, or any multiple there of. We can do 5:5 pull up on a 24p source and have it run at 120hz, smooth as it was in the theatre.

Now if a TV has 24hz input, yet can only display at 60hz, the only thing it can do is apply 3:2 pullup, to get a 60hz signal to display.

If what this TV is displaying is always 60hz, why does it matter that it came into the set at 24hz or 60hz. Its all a matter of who is doing the pullup, the Tv or the BD player, now tell me what the difference is?

There is a misconception that proper film detection is needed on all 60hz signals.
On a 1080i60 source, the TV assumes its effectively 30fps, and will deinterlace the frames a number of ways, such as combining the feilds. This works OK for video, but for Film it ends up combining the wrong fields, thus making a displayed frame actually a hybrid between to different frames.
This is why Film detection is needed.
BUT
On a 1080p60 source, coming from a BD player, the frames are not interlaced, thus they do not need to be pulled down in order to reform them. And they are already in a 3:2 pattern. They are completely ready to be displayed, they need no tweaking.

This TV having 24hz input is merely gravy, its an added convienience that no one will complain about. But unless this TV is 120hz, or uses some sort of motion interpolation to fill in frames instead of using pullup, it makes not a difference in the world.

That the way it is, I donno how my arguement can be countered, but please do if you can.

The A3000 is a 120hz set Westa, so yes, you can see the difference.

CROPPED < OAR < OPEN MATTE -- OOOOH I SAID IT!
necrolop is offline  
post #293 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 10:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
westa6969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: From Michigan now Retired to Naples, FL
Posts: 7,040
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by necrolop View Post

My only credentials are that I spend too much time on these here forums.

But Ill lay my cards out on the table for you, if you wish to counter my arguements, please do so.

Ok lets get started....

A film is 24 frames per second. A Tv is 60 frames persecond(on a progressive display as we have here). In order to get 24 to fit into 60, the first frame is shown twice, the second frame is shown 3 times.

11-222-33-444-55-666-77 and so on.
We all know this as pull up.
Since the effect is to make some frames last on screen longer than others, thus introducing time artifacts known as "judder".

Now the best way to fix this would be to display the 24p source at 24 fps, or any multiple there of. We can do 5:5 pull up on a 24p source and have it run at 120hz, smooth as it was in the theatre.

Now if a TV has 24hz input, yet can only display at 60hz, the only thing it can do is apply 3:2 pullup, to get a 60hz signal to display.

If what this TV is displaying is always 60hz, why does it matter that it came into the set at 24hz or 60hz. Its all a matter of who is doing the pullup, the Tv or the BD player, now tell me what the difference is?

There is a misconception that proper film detection is needed on all 60hz signals.
On a 1080i60 source, the TV assumes its effectively 30fps, and will deinterlace the frames a number of ways, such as combining the feilds. This works OK for video, but for Film it ends up combining the wrong fields, thus making a displayed frame actually a hybrid between to different frames.
This is why Film detection is needed.
BUT
On a 1080p60 source, coming from a BD player, the frames are not interlaced, thus they do not need to be pulled down in order to reform them. And they are already in a 3:2 pattern. They are completely ready to be displayed, they need no tweaking.

This TV having 24hz input is merely gravy, its an added convienience that no one will complain about. But unless this TV is 120hz, or uses some sort of motion interpolation to fill in frames instead of using pullup, it makes not a difference in the world.

That the way it is, I donno how my arguement can be countered, but please do if you can.

The A3000 is a 120hz set Westa, so yes, you can see the difference.

Please read the five part article on 1080P in my Signature block by the experts and your argument is still meaningless without credentials - hence the term "Credibility". I don't have to counter it since I trust Sony is touting more than hype or as you put it lies. posting here doesn't give you any credibility to better interpret Sony's panel than Sony does it? Is your name suddenly Joe Kane? I think not! The proof will be in the owners eyes but for the time being I'll trust the experts and the Engineers of Sony before some casual member on this forum with no credentials in their profile. Don't you think when you call Sony a Liar you are responsible to back it up with credible facts?

So far your ability to count fails to do so. I'll go with Sony on this one.

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
westa6969 is offline  
post #294 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 10:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
necrolop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
One needs a certificate to have knowledge or understanding?
Apparently I have more than you do since you wont counter me.
Also, you note the A3000, yet it is 120hz not 60hz.
I dont mind if you dont trust my judgment, I claim no credentials either.

And westa, I would think you would pony up and go with the XBR4 and thus would be avoiding this question all together? Being the big Sony/Sharp guy you are

I will back down from saying its a Lie, but I do beleive that someone in marketing didnt know any better and wrote that line in there, thus it is deceiving, whether intentional or not.

We will see when the Tv comes out if people find the difference pleasing, but untill then I do think its perfectly fine for me to make a note of this paradox in logic to others so they can consider it before buying it sight unseen.

As far as people at Sony being Infalible.

Maybe they are at the engineer level, but everyone I talked to at the Sony booth at CES seemed to be clueless about just about every facet of LCD tech, even some pretty fundemental stuff. So dont put making a mistake past them.

CROPPED < OAR < OPEN MATTE -- OOOOH I SAID IT!
necrolop is offline  
post #295 of 3238 Old 08-13-2007, 11:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
brentsg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wildwood, MO
Posts: 1,942
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Westa, what does part 5 of that article have to do with anything in this discussion?
brentsg is offline  
post #296 of 3238 Old 08-14-2007, 01:08 AM
Senior Member
 
bsd107's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 457
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by necrolop View Post

Detection is not needed for a 1080p60 source, its ready to go. Detection is only needed for 1080i60 that is from a 24p source. So the fact is, 1080p24 pulled up and displayed at 60hz is absolutely no different than a incoming 1080p60 source displayed at 60hz.

This is a good point.
bsd107 is offline  
post #297 of 3238 Old 08-14-2007, 03:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
tombaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

Please read the five part article on 1080P in my Signature

I have...and if I read it right...its saying that 1080P processed correctly has a large advantage over 720P for motion blur......correct?

As far as the W/V3000s there is a theory (mine) that Sony has implemented 120hz to handle 24P on these models...whilst the XBR has full 120hz for Sports etc.

This would be logical IMO because your have a chip design you don't want to have to have variants of....you implement everything on your XBR and peel off features for your lower models.

Why not use the 120hz side to handle the film rate. And it makes perfect sense to not say its 120hz....because once you do that everyone gets confused....as opposed to the total clarity we all have now.
tombaker is offline  
post #298 of 3238 Old 08-14-2007, 03:23 AM
Advanced Member
 
tombaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by necrolop View Post

As far as people at Sony being Infalible.

Maybe they are at the engineer level, but everyone I talked to at the Sony booth at CES seemed to be clueless about just about every facet of LCD tech, even some pretty fundemental stuff. So dont put making a mistake past them.

Hey stop insulting the "eye candy" girls at the Sony booth, grab a stinking brochure, look at the TVs and get over yourself. You expect them to look like that and be EEs at the same time. Geeez, you couldn't even handle small talk with the babes

BTW FWIW, Sony is saying "once you see 24P".....which means it displays it
tombaker is offline  
post #299 of 3238 Old 08-14-2007, 06:01 AM
Member
 
Howdy Doody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombaker View Post

I have....................

As far as the W/V3000s there is a theory (mine) that Sony has implemented 120hz to handle 24P on these models...whilst the XBR has full 120hz for Sports etc.
.........................

.


TOM

MOTION FLOW (TM) 120
As I read Sony's "Features" for their "40" sets and do their "Compare" it is quite clear that their MOTION FLOW (TM) 120 is only available on the XBR. In contrast the 24p is clearly stated to be available via 1080/24p Input" http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665116632

24p True Cinema (24p Input Capability)
" according to Sony " Many movies are filmed at 24 frames per second (fps) and prime time TV programs are video taped at 24p. Seizing on an opportunity, some studios are taking a purist approach and encoding high definition video content such as Blu-ray Disc in 24p. Sony wisely takes advantage of this by including 24p output capability on their BDP-S1 Blu-ray Disc player. It makes sense that select 2007 BRAVIA TVs will include 24p input capability. The benefit? Images are smooth and natural looking. Once you experience 24p video it will be hard to view video without it....."

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665116628


Viewing 40W3000

In a shop in Ottawa last week, I viewed the 40/S/D/V/W/ and 32S/XBR as all were co-located on a corner wall(s). I do not know what was playing or whether the settings were "out-of-the-box".

The W was best. It displayed a world class image - neither oversaturated or too black. It was like a professionally printed poster. Just a wonderful image.

All of the other sets were darker and oversaturated while sharpness seemed fine across all sets. 40 and 46 inch XBR's were elsewhere on the floor but too close to the eye to critique.
Howdy Doody is offline  
post #300 of 3238 Old 08-14-2007, 09:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
necrolop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombaker View Post


BTW FWIW, Sony is saying "once you see 24P".....which means it displays it

Then youre saying its 120hz, which they are not advertising it as. It may be, but would seem odd not to push such a fact.

CROPPED < OAR < OPEN MATTE -- OOOOH I SAID IT!
necrolop is offline  
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

Tags
Sony Sa W3000 Subwoofer Each Black
Gear in this thread - W3000 by PriceGrabber.com



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off