Official Sony XBR4/5 Owners Thread(NO PRICE TALK) - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 01:54 PM
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By the way Mav (Matt), I took some photos at lunch but didn't have time to upload before coming back to the office. Will try to do that tonight. It's pretty funny though -- looks like a mirror. But I did take a picture from a seat that doesn't get the reflection so you can see how it matters where you sit (moreso during the day than at night -- at night the entire room is light, rather than just the windows, so you can always see a reflection). I shut the blinds and turned the lights on like at night as well, so you'll see the reflection of the light (if the photos come through). Check later tonight for the post, and I apologize in advance to everyone for posting photos of the Panny on this thread. I suppose I could just PM the photos to you, but I'm figuring the photos may convince others on this thread who may be in doubt.
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post #452 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcboyless View Post

After years of waiting, and months of research, I finally took the plunge and picked up the 46XBR4 at CC, thanks to a lot of the information I received from reading this entire board. I wish I could mention the details of my transaction because the price I paid was ridiculously low and a deal I thought I would never be able to pull off at a big box retail chain.

Anyway, I set up the TV last night. I was absolutely blown away by any HD feed, specifically ESPN HD. But, at the same time I couldn't believe how horrible all SD broadcasts appeared. I changed some settings based on what I read here (Standard Mode, Cinemotion Auto2 and Motionflow Standard) but nothing seemed to help. I would consider any SD (480i) borderline unwatchable at this point. I love the HD but there is so little HD content available right now. I have Comcast so I'm only getting about 25-30 channels in HD. It's also been hard to get any help or suggestions from CC or others because I'm using a brand new HD TiVo box that utilizes CableCARDS which no one seems to know about (http://www.tivo.com/whatistivo/tivohd/hdfeatures.html) including Comcast! I'm absolutely hooked on TiVo and could never make the switch to Comcast's horrible DVR (I've heard/witnessed too many horror stories) so if a cable company's DVR would improve SD display, I would like to hear that feedback but it's probably out of the question. Although I'm also not a big fan of Comcast, I never wanted to deal with a satellite dish. I understand I could get more HD channels through a satellite provider but would I still have the same SD display issues?

I almost feel that the horrendous SD display on a high-end TV like the XBR4 is every HD TV lovers' dirty little secret. Is it just something we all tolerate because the HD is so amazing? Because so much programming is still in SD, I'm actually considering returning my 46XBR4, saving $X,XXX and going back to my 27" Toshiba tube. I would definitely miss the HD but I'm just not sure it's justified based on the quality and quantity of the SD programming I still want to watch. There seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people here so before I decide to return my XBR4, I thought I would ask for any help in terms of improving SD display through adjustments, settings, calibration etc. As I mentioned before I have Comcast cable running through two (2) CableCARDS (for dual tuners) inserted into my TiVoHD and then connected to my 46XBR4 through an HDMI cable.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!



I am also frustrated with the SD quality on the XBR4. I have tried some of the posted custom settings, but have found that the Standard settings wind up looking better. Admittedly, they are too bright for a dark room, but the auto-light sensor seems to do a reasonable job compenstating for that.

I'm also running a TiVo (Series 3) via hdmi to the XBR4. I've experimented with letting the TiVo upscale the 480i SD images to 480p and to 1080i, but don't really see much difference there either. Any advice there?
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post #453 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex the Great View Post

...If we had a high-speed video camera (say 240 -480 fps) we could tape the screen using different MotionFlow/Cinemotion settings and then play the record slowly to determine what is going on.

Would a grouping of single shot bursts via a relatively fast shutter speed on a high quality DSLR be of any help at all?
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post #454 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex the Great View Post

Still confused with 120 Hz. IMO if we believe in 120 Hz refresh (on 60 Hz feed) it suppose to be only 2 options: Yes and No (or ON and OFF if you will). "On" stands for 120 Hz and "Off" - for 60 Hz.

And XBR has so many options like Cinemotion Auto1/2 and Motionflow Low, Standard, High. Could anyone explain what these options exactly stand for? How it technicaly works?

I have W3000 now and upgrade window is still open. So it would be crucial for me to know what kind of PQ improvements I can expect if I had XBR4.


My understanding is that 120Hz is the refresh rate of the TV and cannot be changed. And, that the motion enhancer (which can be set to "High", "Standard" or "Off") has to do with additional processing (maybe inserting extra frames) that the TV can do. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

I'm wondering where the effect of 120Hz (compared to a 60Hz TV) is most evident. SD TV? HD TV? Blu-ray? DVD? Games?

The other thing that I've wondered about is why most custom picture settings seem to have most of the processing stuff turned off. If things look better with these off, then what is the advantage of paying extra for an XBR4 over the W3000? Is it just the inherent 120Hz? If so, do most people feel it justifies the price difference?
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post #455 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoDollarBill View Post

I am also frustrated with the SD quality on the XBR4. I have tried some of the posted custom settings, but have found that the Standard settings wind up looking better. Admittedly, they are too bright for a dark room, but the auto-light sensor seems to do a reasonable job compenstating for that.

I'm also running a TiVo (Series 3) via hdmi to the XBR4. I've experimented with letting the TiVo upscale the 480i SD images to 480p and to 1080i, but don't really see much difference there either. Any advice there?

have you guys considered one of the new high end video upscaling receivers or dedicated video processors? their scalers and de-interlacers would be vastly superior to any TV's or cable STBS's built in scalers, and should deliver a much better processed signal from SD to your XBR.
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post #456 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 02:16 PM
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Does anyone know how to set a custom label for an external input? For example, for the hdmi 1 port, I have it labeled as "Game". Is there any way to label it as "PS3"? I know that the V2500 could do this (pre-XMB menu). Did Sony drop this feature with the newest models?

Also, is it possible to jump directly to an input without scrolling through the list? I know the harmony remotes seem to be able to do this, but I wanted to program a different learning remote (capable of macros) to do it.

Thanks.
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post #457 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illdefined View Post

have you guys considered one of the new high end video upscaling receivers or dedicated video processors? their scalers and de-interlacers would be vastly superior to any TV's or cable STBS's built in scalers, and should deliver a much better processed signal from SD to your XBR.

Could you please name a few? I am very uneducated in the "scaler" department, but am considering one if my Directivo box does not put out the quality picture in SD that i am looking for. I am also getting the Onkyo 705 AVR, does that have a video processor or scaler in it? If so, is it any good?
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post #458 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 02:43 PM
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For scalers, you can look into products by DVDO and Lumagen. Mind you they're quite expensive (generally used for front projection displays).

The scalers built into the receivers work well, but nowhere near the level you get with higher end (seperate) scalers...
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post #459 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avuser001 View Post

FYI for all in the Washington DC area.
Bestbuy in Arlington, Virginia (across from Fashion Center - Pentagon) now has on display the 52" XBR4.

I just picked up a 52xbr4 from the CC in Fairfax. They received two on a truck this afternoon. The other is due to go out on the floor as a display.

Tysons Corner CC West has one in stock also. The website isn't reflecting the inventory.

I'll post pics later, but my D200 has been kidnapped away by a friend so I doubt it'll be noteworthy. Out of the box it looks great.
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post #460 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 03:15 PM
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Do any of you guys with xbr4's have a slight green tint in grey shadows?
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post #461 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by pdp7 View Post

does that mean you have the 52's in stock, and ready to be shipped?


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post #462 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 03:39 PM
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**sigh**, all these people getting their XBR4's. I ordered mine 3 weeks ago as soon as the 52" XBR4 showed up in the computer of a local retail chain.

According to them, E.T.A. is within the next week or two. I don't feel too bad because the great majority of 52's are becoming available in the U.S. ( I'm in Canada ).

So for now I just stare at the empty spot on my wall and stare at my empty wall mount.
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post #463 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 03:39 PM
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CC in Rockville Maryland has the 52XBR4 in. The kid said they just got it, it was the best TV they had and when did I want it delivered? I took that last remark to mean they had some in stock.
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post #464 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gable74 View Post

Could you please name a few? I am very uneducated in the "scaler" department, but am considering one if my Directivo box does not put out the quality picture in SD that i am looking for. I am also getting the Onkyo 705 AVR, does that have a video processor or scaler in it? If so, is it any good?

that's a great start, yes it does have a scaler, the same as the new Denons. if you want a further step up in (relatively affordable) scaling, you should look at the Onkyo 875 or 905. they have an even better chip.

that's the setup i'm currently waiting for. unfortunately SD is something that's still very prevalent in our lives...
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post #465 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 04:23 PM
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Does anyone know of a good place where they sell good stands for these t.v.s?
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post #466 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SciFiTy View Post

Does anyone know of a good place where they sell good stands for these t.v.s?

I'm not sure we're allowed to name online vendors that are not sponsors here. Just google major manufacturers like BDI, Bello, Laurier and you'll see find some.

or PM me and I'll tell you where I got mine.
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post #467 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 04:58 PM
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Has anyone even caught a glimpse of the 70" SXRD XBR5 at a trade show? I need the brightness of the 52" LCD XBR4/XBR5. I'm wondering if the SXRD will even be close. I'm hoping someone can talk me out of waiting to purchase the new SXRD and be happy with the 52" XBR4/5 choice.
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post #468 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardBrackin View Post

Would a grouping of single shot bursts via a relatively fast shutter speed on a high quality DSLR be of any help at all?

Thank you Richard, but I am afraid that DSLR is capable of just a few FPS filming and we need a few hundreds. Please note that recording time can be as short as fraction of a second, say about 0.1 sec or a bit more just enough to record 5-10 frames.
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post #469 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoDollarBill View Post

My understanding is that 120Hz is the refresh rate of the TV and cannot be changed. And, that the motion enhancer (which can be set to "High", "Standard" or "Off") has to do with additional processing (maybe inserting extra frames) that the TV can do. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

I'm wondering where the effect of 120Hz (compared to a 60Hz TV) is most evident. SD TV? HD TV? Blu-ray? DVD? Games?

Well, you manage to confuse me even more
First, I have never heard that new XBRs are always 120Hz. Where you get this info?
Second, based on what I've seen and heard this is switchable option. But what exactly this option do to the PQ is unknown. And nobody so far has confirm that refresh rate is indeed 120 Hz.
OTOH Blu-Ray, PS3 and some other devices are capable to output p24 signal. What happened then with p24 is a mystery too. Most likely it just has displayed as it.
BTW early reports about 120 Hz support by Sammy 71F was a mystification.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoDollarBill View Post

The other thing that I've wondered about is why most custom picture settings seem to have most of the processing stuff turned off. If things look better with these off, then what is the advantage of paying extra for an XBR4 over the W3000? Is it just the inherent 120Hz? If so, do most people feel it justifies the price difference?

Ditto ! To the very my point...
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post #470 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speed08 View Post

Do any of you guys with xbr4's have a slight green tint in grey shadows?

Some SD does but no it isn't green like my LX177 is.

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post #471 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 06:16 PM
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Just a question. Has anyone tried Cinemotion at Auto 2 and Motionflow at High? Is this setup better then Motionflow on standard?

Thanks in advance
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post #472 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SciFiTy View Post

Does anyone know of a good place where they sell good stands for these t.v.s?

amazon
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post #473 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiX2 View Post

Just a question. Has anyone tried Cinemotion at Auto 2 and Motionflow at High? Is this setup better then Motionflow on standard?

Thanks in advance

What is the difference between Auto 1 and 2?
So theoretically speaking there are a number of combinations:
CineMotion OFF - MotionFlow OFF
CM OFF - MF Low
CM OFF - MF Medium
CM OFF - MF High
CM Auto 1 - MF OFF
CM Auto 1 - MF Low
CM Auto 1 - MF Medium
CM Auto 1 - MF High
CM Auto 2 - MF OFF
CM Auto 2 - MF Low
CM Auto 2 - MF Medium
CM Auto 2 - MF High

Which of these combination stands for 120 Hz? Has anyone tested all this settings? What about p24 feed? Any difference can be found on p24, like 2:2 or 5:5 pulldown?
Please advise and provide you comments and observations.
Your cooperation will be greatly appreciated!
Tnx.
AG
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post #474 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 07:01 PM
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Got my 46XBR4 today and I am not so happy.
I don't have any HD programming or high definition player so can't comment about HD quality. SD however sucks.(I have Dish SD) I thought the XBR4 would handle SD pretty well -couldn't have been more wrong. I then tried to feed the video signal through my Denon 3808ci receiver and disappointment there too. No improvement in PQ. Playing SD DVDs through my Oppo 980h is good- I won't say excellent but a lot better than SD from my Dish feed. All in all the 46XBR4 hasn't met my expectations.
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post #475 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 07:01 PM
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I have been looking to buy an 52" XBR2/3 for many months and just when they drop the price to a point that makes me want to pull the trigger, out comes the xbr4/5. I know no price talk allowed, but my question for those of you who now own the xbr4 is how much of a premium is the 4 worth over the 2/3? Given the clearance pricing on the remaining 2/3s - are the xbr4s worth $1,000 to $1,200 more? My main concerns with the older model are clouds and some blocking/smearing on fast action sports. I hope this question does not violate the no price talk rule as I'm only asking about the relative value difference between the two models, not the actual price. Thanks for any advice.
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post #476 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolmp6 View Post

Got my 46XBR4 today and I am not so happy.
I don't have any HD programming or high definition player so can't comment about HD quality. SD however sucks.(I have Dish SD) I thought the XBR4 would handle SD pretty well -couldn't have been more wrong. I then tried to feed the video signal through my Denon 3808ci receiver and disappointment there too. No improvement in PQ. Playing SD DVDs through my Oppo 980h is good- I won't say excellent but a lot better than SD from my Dish feed. All in all the 46XBR4 hasn't met my expectations.

I dont think its the TV thats the problem, i think its the quality of the signal going into it. At least thats the concensus around here as some have reported very good SD quality. I saw one in person in CC a few days ago and the SD was acceptable to me. Not fantastic mind you, but it was daisy chained on the same feed as about 25 other TVs, so I am thinking a quality AVR (like the Onkyo im getting) plus a dedicated digital stand alone signal will improve the qulity quite a bit. How far away from the TV are you viewing the SD content?
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post #477 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolmp6 View Post

Got my 46XBR4 today and I am not so happy.
I don't have any HD programming or high definition player so can't comment about HD quality. SD however sucks.(I have Dish SD) I thought the XBR4 would handle SD pretty well -couldn't have been more wrong. I then tried to feed the video signal through my Denon 3808ci receiver and disappointment there too. No improvement in PQ. Playing SD DVDs through my Oppo 980h is good- I won't say excellent but a lot better than SD from my Dish feed. All in all the 46XBR4 hasn't met my expectations.

Buy an antenna if you live near a major city. I live about 30 miles south of Boston/25 miles north of Providence and got a small Sharp hidef TV for my basement and picked up a Terk amplified HDTVa antenna from amazon for short money. It does a pretty darned good job for pulling in 'over the air' HD feeds and I'm happy with it. Considering the price of your new TV, the antenna cost barely even counts.
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post #478 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolmp6 View Post

Got my 46XBR4 today and I am not so happy.
I don't have any HD programming or high definition player so can't comment about HD quality. SD however sucks.(I have Dish SD) I thought the XBR4 would handle SD pretty well -couldn't have been more wrong. I then tried to feed the video signal through my Denon 3808ci receiver and disappointment there too. No improvement in PQ. Playing SD DVDs through my Oppo 980h is good- I won't say excellent but a lot better than SD from my Dish feed. All in all the 46XBR4 hasn't met my expectations.

I understand your frustration, but what your asking is akin to turning water into wine. It just doesn't happen that way. You need to get some HD sources.

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post #479 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 08:37 PM
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Every picture on every 1080P set is displayed as 1080p regardless of how the signal is given to the set. The piece of software that does the conversion is known as the scaler. The scaler in an XBR is much better than the scaler in an upconverting DVD player.

As far as an HD DVD player goes, no scaling is done because the HD DVD is recorded at 1080p.

Why do they make upconverting DVD players? Because suckers buy them!
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post #480 of 11990 Old 08-24-2007, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcboyless View Post

I almost feel that the horrendous SD display on a high-end TV like the XBR4 is every HD TV lovers' dirty little secret. Is it just something we all tolerate because the HD is so amazing?!

No and Yes. No it's not a secret, per se. And Yes we tolerate it.

The non-videophile mostly buys their HDTV because it's big and flat. There was some survey done that showed that a large % of HDTV owners don't even know that their HDTV can do high-def. They don't realize (or maybe care) what they are missing. Shrug.
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