Official Samsung 81 Series Settings and Issues Thread: Can the Beast Be Tamed? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 573 Old 08-29-2007, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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post #2 of 573 Old 08-29-2007, 07:57 PM
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I have a bestbuy ISF certified tech come home and do calibration for a 5281f in oct 1st week.I have a question with that.In future if there any firmware upgrades or some board swaps from samsung like 65 series sets, will the calibartion settings be still good or will they all reset back to factory defaults.Can anyone please let me know? I don't want to spend 325$ and then with a new firmware update everything gets lost.
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post #3 of 573 Old 08-29-2007, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subhash_i View Post

I have a bestbuy ISF certified tech come home and do calibration for a 5281f in oct 1st week.I have a question with that.In future if there any firmware upgrades or some board swaps from samsung like 65 series sets, will the calibartion settings be still good or will they all reset back to factory defaults.Can anyone please let me know? I don't want to spend 325$ and then with a new firmware update everything gets lost.

You could also post your question about if a firmware update would reset your calibration settings to the factory default or not, over on the dedicated Display Calibration forum. I am sure that some people on there must have gone through having firmware updates installed on a set that had been professionally calibrated. Ask if they lost those settings.
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post #4 of 573 Old 08-30-2007, 06:53 AM
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Thanks David, appreciate the help.As per writing the settings before updating firmware, on the regular menu we can change them back to what the calibrator has set, but in the service menu will the calibrator show me how to access the menu?It seems we cannot access it normally.Shall i ask calibrator to give me codes to access menu and is it safe for us to go into service menu without calibrator?
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post #5 of 573 Old 08-30-2007, 09:23 AM
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The tricky thing is that Samsung could update the firmware such that your settings would no longer be accurate. Which is a very possible issue considering this panels variable backlighting.
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post #6 of 573 Old 08-30-2007, 12:41 PM
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I know from reading the 61 & 65 owners thread, they had a MB upgrade and FW upgrade which solved a lot of HDMI & HDCP issues, which also changed how the colors and brightness were displayed, requiring another tweak. I think the NEW MB & FW made things darker, if I remember.

I wish Samsung would allow you to SAVE the settings to the USB.

Best thing to do is just take a digital PIC of each screen, saves a lot of writing.
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post #7 of 573 Old 08-30-2007, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subhash_i View Post

I have a bestbuy ISF certified tech come... don't want to spend 325$ and then with a new firmware update everything gets lost.

BB geek at NW Houston told me that it takes 47 to 49 hours for them to calibrate a TV. Is that true?

Once they do it once for that model #, can't they just repeat the same settings on consecutive sets as long as same FW and MB ??
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post #8 of 573 Old 08-30-2007, 12:53 PM
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Here in Dallas in our bestbuy they gave a time frame of 4 hrs and said usually it takes 2 hrs to finish calibration.
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post #9 of 573 Old 08-30-2007, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CadJoe View Post

BB geek at NW Houston told me that it takes 47 to 49 hours for them to calibrate a TV. Is that true? Once they do it once for that model #, can't they just repeat the same settings on consecutive sets as long as same FW and MB ??

they are highly spreading misinformation.

well they could but it would be fraud. Each set needs to be calibrated individually and independent of any other set. besides variables in the sets themselfs you have other items to consider such as sources, viewing environment etc....

a panny plasma owner reported about his poor experience with a bb calibrator, one that was brand new to isf calibration and had just gotten his certification the week prior to doing the panny owners plasma and he reported the guy rushed through it in an hour and a half and it looked worse then before the bb guy calibrated it. no matter who does it get their name and contact prior clients to get as many recommendations as possible before you let them calibrate your display. also talk to them and get their equpment specs as that can show you alot about how well they can actually calibrate your display. one of the best know isf techs in the country is jeff meier out of sugarland, tx at accucalhd.com give him a shot on your new 81 sammy and you know it will be looking the best it can.

HD HD HD I Need more HD, Yes I am a HD Addict :)
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post #10 of 573 Old 08-30-2007, 03:46 PM
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I haven't got a setting I've liked with the set contently, but my movie theater setting for brightness/shadowdetail/contrast I think has been found. Using a PS3 Blu-Ray source... it is.

Contrast: 65
Brightness: 51
Backlight: 0
SmartLED: ON
Dynamic Contrast: Off
Gamma: 2
Black Level: Off

For Colors... ugh. I haven't found anything.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #11 of 573 Old 08-30-2007, 04:36 PM
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I wouldn't mess with those service menu settings David.That's why i asked Bestbuy calibrator to do it.In the ISF website it shows two certified Bestbuy calibrators for Dallas.One of them will do for me.If they mess up anything Bestbuy can have the tv back as i purchased it from them.I was thinking of other guys but taking the safe route just in case if someone comes and couldn't figure out the settings and something messes up, i cannot return the tv back also
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post #12 of 573 Old 08-30-2007, 10:23 PM
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Ok, I went ahead and created an upper 64 from scratch, ie 192 to 255.

Right Click Save-As Here

Preview Thumbnail below.


Does it need a black perimeter?? Hmm..

Hope this helps.

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post #13 of 573 Old 08-30-2007, 11:44 PM
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You could have just inverted the dark pic!
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post #14 of 573 Old 08-31-2007, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kron View Post

You could have just inverted the dark pic!

hehe, well, it only took me 10 mins.. besides, I trust vector.
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post #15 of 573 Old 09-03-2007, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

I haven't got a setting I've liked with the set contently, but my movie theater setting for brightness/shadowdetail/contrast I think has been found. Using a PS3 Blu-Ray source... it is.

Contrast: 65
Brightness: 51
Backlight: 0
SmartLED: ON
Dynamic Contrast: Off
Gamma: 2
Black Level: Off

For Colors... ugh. I haven't found anything.


I tried these settings, but they looked somewhat washed out to me. I prefer a bit more contrast and less brightness.
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post #16 of 573 Old 09-04-2007, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidjschenk View Post

Hi mgbaron,

Ahh. As I understand it, the purpose Johnnybrulez had for introducing so much brightness was to minimize the backlight artifacts he was seeing, especially in dark movies with star fields (think Star Wars, here). According to his reports, the set gets some quite distracting artifacts involving localized regions of blacks getting brightened and dimmed as the scene changes (someone please correct me if I have this wrong). He referred to them as "floating blacks," though from his reports they sounded more like bouncing blacks when things got really bad. For instance, the scene pans across a star field in which some big intimidating spaceship lumbers along. As this happens, spaces between the stars shift from a nice deep black to a sort of glowing gray, and then perhaps back to black. You see the idea? In its most exaggerated form, the black levels in these spaces go *boingboingboing* all over the place and distract the viewer.

Upping the brightness successfully minimized these artifacts. If you don't see any such artifacts, then keep the brightness lower; if you start to see them, then consider this option (trade off though it be).

Yours,

David

So far, with the content I've been watching I think I have noticed what Johnnybrulez described, but have not noticed it be that much of a problem. That said, I haven't watched any space movies yet and I'm not always in total darkness. To me, based on what I've seen so far, turning the brightness up that high is too much of a tradeoff. I need contrast in the 80's and brightness at max around 45.

Take this all with a grain of salt given that I was also formerly a "pinto" owner (48 inch panny rear projection) and this is quite an upgrade for me. I demoed the 71 series and the xbr4's and found the artifacts produced by the AutoMotion Plus to be unacceptable (much more distracting than what I've seen from the 81's blacks).
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post #17 of 573 Old 09-09-2007, 11:52 AM
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In comparing the 52" 81 set RIGHT next to a Pioneer Elite 50" plasma (that was tweaked and not set to default "torch" settings) I was able to get the set looking very, very nice color and overall setting wise. (Obviously not professional calibration level by any means...but a very good start IMO).

I brought my PS3 into Magnolia and was also tweaking against their DirectV feed with ESPN on all sets.

There is no doubt that the Sammy 81 has some interesting colors on default settings. A bit of a green push and an off shade of red. My intent with tweaking the set at the store was to try and get the colors as neutral as possible and to have the brightness at a level where the contrast was popping but was not blocking out detail.

I will only post the settings I changed and if I do not list a setting, that means I left it to it's default.

The settings/changes are as follow:

Movie Mode

Contrast - 85
Brightness - 45
Sharpness - 27
Backlight - 7 (can't remember if that was default of not)

Color Temp - Normal (I know most people calibrate with "warm" but the reds are too weird in that mod IMO)

(rest are defaults)

In "Detailed Settings"...

Black Adjust - Off
Detail Contrast - Low
Gamma - -1
Color - Wide (Auto really washes out the colors for some reason)
Edge Enhancement - On

White Balance settings...

Red Offset - 10
Green offset - 5
Blue offset - 5

(rest are defaults - I did not change the "my color settings")

I left LED smart "on" but did not turn on the LED Motion setting.

I did not turn on the xxYCC color (or what ever that setting is called).


Through turning down all the red, green and blue offset settings I was able to get a much better red color and no green psh at all as far as I could tell.

These are by no means the perfect settings for this TV, but I think these are a great start to tweak from there.


(to my eyes of course)

Thanks,

Spooky
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post #18 of 573 Old 09-10-2007, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgbaron View Post

I tried these settings, but they looked somewhat washed out to me. I prefer a bit more contrast and less brightness.

I also changed my settings. And I also thought my settings post were also a bit washed out.

I am sorry but I want shadow details! I mean at least a good amount.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #19 of 573 Old 09-10-2007, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidjschenk View Post

Hi mgbaron,

Ahh. As I understand it, the purpose Johnnybrulez had for introducing so much brightness was to minimize the backlight artifacts he was seeing, especially in dark movies with star fields (think Star Wars, here). According to his reports, the set gets some quite distracting artifacts involving localized regions of blacks getting brightened and dimmed as the scene changes (someone please correct me if I have this wrong). He referred to them as "floating blacks," though from his reports they sounded more like bouncing blacks when things got really bad. For instance, the scene pans across a star field in which some big intimidating spaceship lumbers along. As this happens, spaces between the stars shift from a nice deep black to a sort of glowing gray, and then perhaps back to black. You see the idea? In its most exaggerated form, the black levels in these spaces go *boingboingboing* all over the place and distract the viewer.

Upping the brightness successfully minimized these artifacts. If you don't see any such artifacts, then keep the brightness lower; if you start to see them, then consider this option (trade off though it be).

Yours,

David

From what I understand Johnnybrulez was watching The Empire Strikes Back. When I read his post I checked out the movie on my equipment. Sure enough in the opening scene panning across space following the probe the stars flickered like mad. In, out, in out, in, out. Then they fade to almost nothing at the end of the pan. You can rest assured that the source is the culprit. In that movie there are tonnes of artifacts like this. You have to remember it was done in 1982 and when they released the "fixed" versions they didn't really touch up any of these artifacts.

Don't get me wrong JohnnyBrulez I'm sure you've had many issues with the set that were not to your satisfaction (color is also VERY important to me), but I know that movie is messed up. I'd like to hear if these kind of issues have come up in other, more recent, Sci-Fi movies. Maybe even, uggh, Revenge of the Sith?

Plus, are any other owners seeing halos around super high contrast scenes, like bright stars in black space? Are they distracting when viewing content?

I should say that I do not own this set, but am very interested in getting my eyes on one. This or a 71.
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post #20 of 573 Old 09-10-2007, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

I also changed my settings. And I also thought my settings post were also a bit washed out.

I am sorry but I want shadow details! I mean at least a good amount.

Hi Johnnybrulez,

From your time with the 81 and all the diffferent settings you've used were you able to see the dancing star effect in any other starfield besides the one in Empire? In my previous post I describe why I'm asking.

Sorry for the roundabout way of asking.

Thanks
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post #21 of 573 Old 09-10-2007, 05:33 AM
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"small air currents"

It's sad when these sets REALLY highlight all the limits of technology (or shortcuts) during a production.

At first , after reading Johnny's posts, I thought it was the set but now I'm curious to hear about how this set handles other similar material.

By the way, Idjiits picture of King Kong is really close to color accurate for that shot but it's waaaaaay too saturated. I'm not sure if it's his camera or not. I don't think it's his camera because everything around the tv looks "normal". Maybe he has the color cranked way up on the tv.

How about sharing your settings Idjiit?
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post #22 of 573 Old 09-10-2007, 11:10 AM
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As I said earlier, the shot I took of King Kong was indeed oversaturated. I wasn't as familiar with the source material as I should have been and had an unnatural amount of saturation and black levels going to get rid of the "haze" that's in a lot of scenes in the movie - this is actually just a fact of life with the film, which has a really wide variety of contrast throughout the film. I've recalibrated to the following settings on my LN-T4081 after watching V for Vendetta and most of King Kong again through an HD-A2 connecting via HDMI1...
  • Mode - Movie
  • Contrast - 99
  • Brightness - 41
  • Sharpness - 20
  • Color - 53
  • Tint - G79/R21
  • Backlight - 7/5 (daytime/nighttime)
  • Color Tone - Warm1
  • Detailed Settings:
    • Black Adjust - Off
    • Dyanmic Contrast - LOW
    • Gamma - +2
    • Color Space - Wide
    • White Space -(default settings)
    • My Color Control - (default settings)
    • Edge Enhancement - Off
    • xvYCC - Off
    • LED Motion Plus - Off
  • Size - Just Scan
  • Digital NR - Off
  • Active Color - Off
  • DNIe - Off
  • LED SmartLighting - On
  • LED Feature Demo - Off

I'm extremely happy with the set. Is it perfect? No. But for HD-DVD material, the quality is extremely high and the anomolies in the picture are only apparent if you're really looking for them. This set will serve me well for a few years until Locally Dimmed LCDs really come into their own - the future looks very, very bright for the technology.
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post #23 of 573 Old 09-10-2007, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relicvfx View Post

Hi Johnnybrulez,

From your time with the 81 and all the diffferent settings you've used were you able to see the dancing star effect in any other starfield besides the one in Empire? In my previous post I describe why I'm asking.

Sorry for the roundabout way of asking.

Thanks

Doom. Batman Begins. A couple of others I forget... at the moment.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #24 of 573 Old 09-10-2007, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidjschenk View Post

Hi relicvfx,

Yeah, you know, I was watching that movie just last week on my old CRT monitor (still waiting for my 4081) and saw so many artifacts, it wasn't funny. I mean, there are some scenes where the stars *MOVE* because the curtain they used was getting blown by some small air currents. The winking in and out of stars and the rise and fall of "blacks" (often really dark browns and/or greens) in the blocking around various ships all just leapt out at me. The same goes for the original Star Wars. I thought then that perhaps Johnny's artifacts were in the source material and not in the tv, just as you suggest.

Johnny, are these the artifacts to which you were referring, or were there others added/exaggerated by the tv? One thing I did not notice on the CRT was lots of gray in the spaces between the stars.

Yours,

David

Guys guys guys. Yes there artifacts in the movie. But it is those artifacts that cause the local dimming to act a little wiggy. If you turned off SmartLEd lighting then you will see the flucuating blacks leave. If your black was stable you wouldn't have these issues.

Its a local dimming issue. There are not enough zones. If there's a star in a zone it can't dim itself. If there is an area w/o a star it can dim itself. In movies stars aren't laid equally across the whole screen. Stars twinkle and disappear.

There is no way if local dimming is on that you'll get a stable black across the space sky... unless like I said you raise up the black level enough to where the blotches and fluctations aren't so obvious.

Same thing with like any hilight in a really dark scene. You'll get haze and what not. I am sure you can ease the issue by toying around. Sharpjunkie and I were trying to do that... only difference is Sharp had a really good LCD set next to him and I have an outdated one as reference.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #25 of 573 Old 09-10-2007, 06:19 PM
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Thanks for the clarification Johnny. I just wanted to be sure, LD LED enhances crappy source material in certain situations - also when there is not enough of an LED array to handle big black open spaces with small high contrast elements.

Appreciate all your time trying to tame the beast. There really is no substitute for time spent with a new set and your posts have been very helpful.
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post #26 of 573 Old 09-10-2007, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idjiit View Post

As I said earlier, the shot I took of King Kong was indeed oversaturated. I wasn't as familiar with the source material as I should have been and had an unnatural amount of saturation and black levels going to get rid of the "haze" that's in a lot of scenes in the movie - this is actually just a fact of life with the film, which has a really wide variety of contrast throughout the film. I've recalibrated to the following settings on my LN-T4081 after watching V for Vendetta and most of King Kong again through an HD-A2 connecting via HDMI1...
  • Mode - Movie
  • Contrast - 99
  • Brightness - 41
  • Sharpness - 20
  • Color - 53
  • Tint - G79/R21
  • Backlight - 7/5 (daytime/nighttime)
  • Color Tone - Warm1
  • Detailed Settings:
    • Black Adjust - Off
    • Dyanmic Contrast - LOW
    • Gamma - +2
    • Color Space - Wide
    • White Space -(default settings)
    • My Color Control - (default settings)
    • Edge Enhancement - Off
    • xvYCC - Off
    • LED Motion Plus - Off
  • Size - Just Scan
  • Digital NR - Off
  • Active Color - Off
  • DNIe - Off
  • LED SmartLighting - On
  • LED Feature Demo - Off

I'm extremely happy with the set. Is it perfect? No. But for HD-DVD material, the quality is extremely high and the anomolies in the picture are only apparent if you're really looking for them. This set will serve me well for a few years until Locally Dimmed LCDs really come into their own - the future looks very, very bright for the technology.

Looks like a tint adjustment for magenta (pinkish) reds and a gamma adjustment for black crush. Am I right?

Are these the settings you are using when comparing your photo prints?

Thanks
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post #27 of 573 Old 09-11-2007, 12:46 PM
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Hi Davidjschenk,

Actually it's a really good idea to get a handle on what settings exagerate any problems with a set before you calibrate them out , not strange or backwards at all. If you don't know where you've been you won't know where you're going.

Can't wait to hear your info on this set.

Relic
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post #28 of 573 Old 09-12-2007, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidjschenk View Post

Hi Relic,

Aye, true enough--finding the problems to be fixed is the best first move. But what I was referring to is that it does seem a bit odd and backward for someone to be looking forward to the whole business of needing to do such calibrations on his/her expensive new display. The normal expectation is that such a person would look forward to getting a display that had no problems in need of fixing.

Certainly, I wish that the 81s didn't have any of these issues at all, but I'm confident I'll find a way to work around them to my own satisfaction and, because I've been waiting on this thing for so long now, I have a geeky excitement over the prospect of spending long late hours all the way into pre-dawn, tweaking my new display until I find I cannot remember how to blink (you know the feeling, I assume).

Yours,

David

LOL Yeah, been there done that, and I'll do it again. I spent 80 hours calibrating my projector. The green and blues just weren't right. I should have taken some equipment home from work, but then it's no fun.

To most people there are no issues with the set that they choose. They buy a set because something caught thier eye when they saw it. I sounds like the 81s can have a strong impact to the people who are not looking for artifacts or issues. If you were a regular joe blow then you wouldn't be in this forum and you would look at your new 81 and say "WOW, look at how that image sparkles." then you would see a halo around a star and say "It's so bright I can see halos, WOW". Then you CRANK the color, because you can, and say "HOLY $H!T !! Look at how vibrant the colors are"! WHEEEEEEEEE

I think that it is o.k. for people to enjoy thier set the way that they want. I, personaly, sit back and quietly laugh at the whole thing because a lot of people have no idea what they are missing in crushed blacks, pink/orange reds, blown out highlights and color temperatures that might look good in a very cold room (blue). But that's just me.

The people who make these great movies that we watch nit pick about EVERY DETAIL in every shot and I'd like to enjoy the time and effort that they put in. I'm hoping the 81 will be everything Idjiit says it is when I finally get to see one. If not, it's on to the 71. I'm looking forward to hearing what your thoughts are on this set. From when you open the box to just before you can't blink anymore. Keep us informed.

Relic
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post #29 of 573 Old 09-14-2007, 05:40 PM
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davidjschenk? Got your set yet?
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post #30 of 573 Old 09-17-2007, 07:01 PM
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David, I don't have an 81, but you presented your settings and issues very well for a n00b.
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