120Hz - now what - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 27 Old 09-07-2007, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
shawn_d2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So I guess the big thing in TV Land for Fall is the 120Hz refresh rate. here's the big players-
Sharp LC-xxD93U
Sharp LC-xxD92U
Sharp LC-xxD82U
Samsung LN-Txx81F
Samsung LN-Txx71F
Sony KDL-xxXBR4
Sony KDL-xxXBR5

Here's my take on them-
the Sharps were the first to market with 120Hz tech, but they aren't doing anything else that really sets them apart. No offense to Sharp owners, i am not saying they aren't nice TV's!

The Samsung's have this: "LED backlight" instead of a fluorescent bulb which produces a ridiculous 500,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio (only in the 81F's)

The Sony's have this: "24p True Cinema" which supposedly makes it like your truly watching a movie at the theatre (if your watching an HD DVD or Blu Ray disc)

Would you guys agree these will be the defining features of these TV's or am I totally wrong?
Do you think one 120Hz TV will be the clear winner come Holiday 2007?
Has anyone seen them all in action and lived to tell about it?


Thanks
shawn_d2007 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 27 Old 09-07-2007, 10:44 PM
Member
 
warrencr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Costa Rica
Posts: 104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn_d2007 View Post



The Samsung's have this: "LED backlight" instead of a fluorescent bulb which produces a ridiculous 500,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio (only in the 81F's)


I would love to see that
warrencr is offline  
post #3 of 27 Old 09-08-2007, 05:45 AM
Advanced Member
 
EADGBE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I think all those TV's do 1080/24p, (I don't know for sure about the Sharp's). Only the 81 has LED backlighting and it's a first gen model that they probably rushed to be the first in the stores to sell one, I'd wait that technology out for a couple years at least. Other then that I think they are all very comparable. The Sammy's have that annoying gloss cover which gives nice black levels but the reflections bother me, IMO. My vote goes for the XBR4 out of all those choices.

52XBR4
55HX929
EADGBE is offline  
post #4 of 27 Old 09-08-2007, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
shawn_d2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
can anyone confirm the Samsung 81F's have 24 frame support
shawn_d2007 is offline  
post #5 of 27 Old 09-08-2007, 12:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nmlobo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Yorktown, VA
Posts: 2,475
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn_d2007 View Post

the Sharps were the first to market with 120Hz tech, but they aren't doing anything else that really sets them apart. No offense to Sharp owners, i am not saying they aren't nice TV's!

Minor correction. JVC was the first to hit the US streets with a 120hz set - Jun 2006. Their second gen 120hz sets are due out any day now.
Nmlobo is offline  
post #6 of 27 Old 09-08-2007, 12:43 PM
Member
 
okiedigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn_d2007 View Post

can anyone confirm the Samsung 81F's have 24 frame support

I believe Sharpjunkie confirmed that it does.
okiedigger is offline  
post #7 of 27 Old 09-08-2007, 01:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sharkcohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
The Sharps don't accept 24p input, so the feature, IMHO, is a bit pointless.

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
sharkcohen is offline  
post #8 of 27 Old 09-08-2007, 02:51 PM
Advanced Member
 
tombaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nmlobo View Post

Minor correction. JVC was the first to hit the US streets with a 120hz set - Jun 2006. Their second gen 120hz sets are due out any day now.

JVC first gen was horizontal correcting only....the new generation is supposed to be both axis...have to look back to confirm if its diagonal

I believe sony uses horizontal and diagonal only....from a babelfish translation
tombaker is offline  
post #9 of 27 Old 09-08-2007, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
shawn_d2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
are the XBR4,5's the only ones that "accept 24p input"?
Does this only matter with HD DVD and Blu Ray?
shawn_d2007 is offline  
post #10 of 27 Old 09-09-2007, 05:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nmlobo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Yorktown, VA
Posts: 2,475
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombaker View Post

JVC first gen was horizontal correcting only....the new generation is supposed to be both axis...have to look back to confirm if its diagonal

I believe sony uses horizontal and diagonal only....from a babelfish translation

"In its new full HD incarnation, JVC's Clear Motion Drive detects image data from more than 8,000 surrounding dots in a frame to create a pixel and calculate movement from the current frame to the next. This process is performed on all two million pixels (1920 x 1080) in a frame to interpolate for movement in all directions." http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=588&pageID=1
Nmlobo is offline  
post #11 of 27 Old 09-09-2007, 05:36 AM
Member
 
Crash_7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Another minor correction. The Samsung 71 series doesn't have the LED backlight. Just the 81 series.
Crash_7 is offline  
post #12 of 27 Old 09-09-2007, 08:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
wtr_wkr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn_d2007 View Post

here's the big players-
Sharp LC-xxD93U
Sharp LC-xxD92U
Sharp LC-xxD82U
Samsung LN-Txx81F
Samsung LN-Txx71F
Sony KDL-xxXBR4
Sony KDL-xxXBR5

Interesting that my list of 120hz does not include any on your list. Why:
Sharp: 92's are gen 0 (as in zero interpolation that anyone could see.)
Sony: always a non value
Sammy: glossy screen

My list:
Tosh 177 but only if they get the green out.
Mitz 144, 244; performance is TBD
JVC, see 898 thread. 1st review looks good.

The unknows: Sharp, Phillips and Olevia

HD-DVD is dead, so now I'm a Gary McCoy fanboy.
wtr_wkr is offline  
post #13 of 27 Old 09-09-2007, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
shawn_d2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
are the XBR4,5's the only ones that "accept 24p input"?

Does this only matter with HD DVD and Blu Ray?
shawn_d2007 is offline  
post #14 of 27 Old 09-09-2007, 09:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
wtr_wkr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn_d2007 View Post

are the XBR4,5's the only ones that "accept 24p input"?

Does this only matter with HD DVD and Blu Ray?

Others accept 24p, but the issue is whether they end up doing 3:2 anyway. Expect US displays to either display 5 images/sec (120hz) or do motion interpolation to 60hz 3:2. (Euro's doing 100Hz can do both.) IMO, the interpolated (60hz->120hz) 3:2 will look less jerky. (Jerky comes from 24p (too slow) and 3:2 judder.)

With good processing, 24p content (even from a DVD) can be reconstructed from 60i (inverse telecine.)

Re processing, Tosh XA2 includes SO's Reon, a reduced(focused) Realta. Here's part of what a Realta can do: http://www.hqv.com/technology/index1...TOKEN=45710053

HD-DVD is dead, so now I'm a Gary McCoy fanboy.
wtr_wkr is offline  
post #15 of 27 Old 09-09-2007, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
shawn_d2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So wtr_wkr, if you were gonna buy a 120Hz lcd, what would you get?
shawn_d2007 is offline  
post #16 of 27 Old 09-09-2007, 12:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
wtr_wkr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn_d2007 View Post

So wtr_wkr, if you were gonna buy a 120Hz lcd, what would you get?

This morning it was (current probabilities with pulling the trigger on black Friday):
60% JVC (should be #1 on interpolation and a good 10bit panel)
20% Mitz 144/244 (know for integrating good chips with a good panel)
10% Tosh 177(good panel & processor, but needs a fix)
10% other

Now, with NuVision's new models:
40% JVC
30% NuVision NVU52DCM(Sharp panel, Realta, maybe strobing BLU & 120Hz)
10% Mitz
5% Tosh
5% Sammy(new non glare model (but no 52" announced.))
10% other

Now for the disclaimer - Sharp will introduce a new model with "Advanced" motion interpolation. Syntax is doing a 65" with the Sharp panel and Realta.
Others will be doing LED BLUs, and maybe someone will license Brightsides Local Dimming. Obviously, we need to see if Sharp gets the banding out of the new panels for each size.

Bottom line, the dominate consideration is the "jerk factor." Defined in an article I read about selecting high tech stuff. It's this simple: "Ask yourself one simple question - six months from now will I look back and feel like a jerk."

On black Friday, all the new models will be out, we will know which ones have problems, performance will have be evaluated and the price will be right.

HD-DVD is dead, so now I'm a Gary McCoy fanboy.
wtr_wkr is offline  
post #17 of 27 Old 09-10-2007, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
shawn_d2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
wtr_wkr -

The Sony's don't even rank on your list?

What JVC model are you talking about?
shawn_d2007 is offline  
post #18 of 27 Old 09-12-2007, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
shawn_d2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
re-asking my question -

wtr_wkr -

The Sony's don't even rank on your list?

What JVC model are you talking about?
shawn_d2007 is offline  
post #19 of 27 Old 09-12-2007, 12:54 PM
Member
 
Tango Charlie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 57
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Are there any side-by-side comparisons available to read? Not just between different brands' 120hz implementations, but between 120hz sets and non-120hz sets. I'm really wondering if this technology is all it's hyped up to be.
Tango Charlie is offline  
post #20 of 27 Old 09-12-2007, 01:10 PM
Member
 
fedex2go's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Frankly, I don't understand all the buzz about 120Hz. All my 1080p TVs are hooked up to media centers (it doesn't cost much these days to build a decent MCE-machine), and they are being fed with DVI/HDMI 1920x1080 native resolution. All the conversion is taking place inside the computer (analog/digital tuners, or DVD upscaling). So 120Hz really means nothing to the MCE-user.

And frankly - I believe that this is the way do go. Modern TV should be used only as 1080p 1:1-mapping computer monitor, and let your computer do all that heavy processing stuff. TVs cost too much, and it's never-ending battle trying to catch constantly advancing technology, they come up 5-months from now with 144Hz - and it's all starting over again, buy new TV? This is just crazy. MCE with decent tuners is the way to go. Also, DVD upscaling is WAY BETTER on MCE. Just my opinion...
fedex2go is offline  
post #21 of 27 Old 09-12-2007, 01:18 PM
Member
 
greenlantern88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I want to replace my Samsung 4696. I figured that 46 was big enough. You can never have a big enough TV.

Interested top 10 LCD list. http://www.reviews-lcd-tv.com/top-10-lcd-tvs-46up.aspx

I am leaning toward 5271 because of the price point. But somethings says inside of me, wait. Maybe a 57inch model will come out. I don't really want to cross over to a plasma 58 inch.
greenlantern88 is offline  
post #22 of 27 Old 09-12-2007, 01:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Enigma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 4,414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlantern88 View Post

I want to replace my Samsung 4696. I figured that 46 was big enough. You can never have a big enough TV.

Interested top 10 LCD list. http://www.reviews-lcd-tv.com/top-10-lcd-tvs-46up.aspx

I am leaning toward 5271 because of the price point. But somethings says inside of me, wait. Maybe a 57inch model will come out. I don't really want to cross over to a plasma 58 inch.

Hmm, I thought there was a 57" 71 series. Guess that's just 81 series, then?

Hal
Enigma is offline  
post #23 of 27 Old 09-12-2007, 02:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chrisherbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 5,839
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedex2go View Post

Frankly, I don't understand all the buzz about 120Hz. All my 1080p TVs are hooked up to media centers (it doesn't cost much these days to build a decent MCE-machine), and they are being fed with DVI/HDMI 1920x1080 native resolution at 60Hz. All the conversion is taking place inside the computer (analog/digital tuners, or DVD upscaling). So 120Hz really means nothing to the MCE-user.

And frankly - I believe that this is the way do go. Modern TV should be used only as 1080p 1:1-mapping computer monitor, and let your computer do all that heavy processing stuff. TVs cost too much, and it's never-ending battle trying to catch constantly advancing technology, they come up 5-months from now with 144Hz - and it's all starting over again, buy new TV? This is just crazy. MCE with decent tuners is the way to go. Also, DVD upscaling is WAY BETTER on MCE. Just my opinion...


120hz doesn't have anything to do with your MCE computer -- it must be supported by the TV. You cannot achieve the same results by hooking an HTPC to a 60hz LCD, it's just not possible.
chrisherbert is online now  
post #24 of 27 Old 09-12-2007, 06:20 PM
Member
 
kkeldysh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
LCD doesn't have a refresh rate. If the computer will have the appropriate hardware/software - the same results will be achieved. I agree with fedex2go that all these "new" offerings on TVs are just marketing BS, they put new software chip inside the TV, call it a new better model and sell for $1000 more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

120hz doesn't have anything to do with your MCE computer -- it must be supported by the TV. You cannot achieve the same results by hooking an HTPC to a 60hz LCD, it's just not possible.

kkeldysh is offline  
post #25 of 27 Old 09-13-2007, 08:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chrisherbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 5,839
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkeldysh View Post

LCD doesn't have a refresh rate. If the computer will have the appropriate hardware/software - the same results will be achieved. I agree with fedex2go that all these "new" offerings on TVs are just marketing BS, they put new software chip inside the TV, call it a new better model and sell for $1000 more.

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. The LCD most certainly does have a refresh rate -- 60hz for almost all NTSC LCDs, and 120hz for the newer ones (for PAL, 50hz and 100hz for new ones).

The new "software chip" helps reduce motion blur. I suppose you could offload the motion interpolation to an HTPC (assuming that the software to do this exists, and that your PC was powerful enough to perform it on HD sources -- both doubtful), but only if the LCD itself supported a 120hz signal input.

Only 120hz TVs accept and display a 120hz signal, so you can't take your old 60hz LCD, work some MCE magic on it, and get the same results as a 120hz LCD. Simply not possible.
chrisherbert is online now  
post #26 of 27 Old 09-13-2007, 10:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
wtr_wkr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn_d2007 View Post

re-asking my question -

wtr_wkr -

The Sony's don't even rank on your list?

What JVC model are you talking about?

I just started reading the 71 vs xbr4 thread. Looks like Sony maybe a little sharper, although that was later retracted. Sony crushes blacks, so 71 may win. 71 is also faster. It's not included because of a prior total lack of knowledge (And, I'm anti Sony.)

JVC LT-__x898, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&highlight=jvc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango Charlie View Post

Are there any side-by-side comparisons available to read? Not just between different brands' 120hz implementations, but between 120hz sets and non-120hz sets. I'm really wondering if this technology is all it's hyped up to be.

See sharpjunkie's threads: 71 vs 81 and 71 vs xbr4.
See post #14 in above JVC thread.
No info re 60 vs 120hz (I have NO interest in a 60Hz.)

HD-DVD is dead, so now I'm a Gary McCoy fanboy.
wtr_wkr is offline  
post #27 of 27 Old 09-13-2007, 11:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
wtr_wkr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedex2go View Post

Frankly, I don't understand all the buzz about 120Hz... So 120Hz really means nothing to the MCE-user...

And frankly - I believe that this is the way do go. Modern TV should be used only as 1080p 1:1-mapping computer monitor, and let your computer do all that heavy processing stuff... Also, DVD upscaling is WAY BETTER on MCE. Just my opinion...

OK, so here's what I want my PC to do. I want additional frames added to my 60p content to smooth motion. I'm sure the PC could do a good job of "motion upconversion". I also want it to present these 8.3msec images for 6msec with a blank frame between them for 2.1msec. (We need this to avoid blurring caused by retina retention.) So find a monitor with a 480Hz refresh rate with HDCP. (Or, I'll have to wait for a TV with a stobed LED BLU.)

While we are at it, could you compare your PC's processing to the following chip. If it's better, I'll want to know what app to get and your PC specs.
http://www.hqv.com/technology.cfm

And, if you have an app that does upconversion using bandelet transforms, I want it. If not, see if you can get it for us. That's what the studios are using to do digital theaters.
http://gear.ign.com/articles/701/701720p1.html
http://www.letitwave.com/home.html

Even with a strobed BLU, we'll still need motion upconversion on the PC and 120p input (Film are upconverted to 120p and need 200 to 400GBs.) I'm ok with non real time processing, but I'll need a bigger hard drive.

HD-DVD is dead, so now I'm a Gary McCoy fanboy.
wtr_wkr is offline  
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off