Official XBR4/5/X3500 Ghosting/Smearing Thread -Updated First Post - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Does your XBR4/5/X3500 have the ghosting/smearing issue as show in the videos?
Yes, my 40XBR4/5/X3500 shows the same thing while gaming. 20 13.25%
No, my 40XBR4/5/x3500 does not have this issue. 14 9.27%
Yes, my 46XBR4/5/X3500 shows the same thing while gaming. 17 11.26%
No, my 46XBR4/5/x3500 does not have this issue. 35 23.18%
Yes, my 52XBR4/5/X3500 shows the same thing while gaming. 24 15.89%
No, my 52XBR4/5/x3500 does not have this issue. 41 27.15%
Voters: 151. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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1/10/08 - Read World Testing Observations 40XBR3 vs 46XBR4

I did some testing tonight playing COD4 with the 40XBR3 and 46XBR4. I went to different areas in the game and played through looking at different objects, then switching to the other TV and playing through the same area. Observations so far is that the XBR3's color smear is limited to just black where as the XBR4 will smear with dark reds, browns, etc. The second thing is the XBR4 will create duplicate copies of the image (think Samsung TBE) on a pan where the XBR3 will just lose focus be not create any additional images or artifacts. Keep in mind all additional processing was turned off.

Needless to say so far the XBR3 is coming away as the superior set in image reproduction. I'll spend more time with some other games and movies later and report back. As for right now if my XBR4 performed like the XBR3 this thread wouldn't exist.

1/3/08 - More Smearing Videos I took of COD4 on my 46XBR4

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post12664235

1/2/08 - Updated Link to Fudoh's test
http://rapidshare.com/files/80702792...video.wmv.html

12/31 -Still no official Confirmation from Sony
Fudoh's test below works with the PC, PS3, and XBox360. Here is a quick video I did that gives an example but it's not perfect and your results may vary.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LCKNHZAM

12/28
Picture of test below showing the issue on a 40X3500


12/26
The following contains an excellent test by Fudoh and will show the issue if you have it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=337

Current I'm still waiting for my local Sony tech to hear back from technical at Sony Corporate.

12/12

This thread is being started to discuss the ghosting/smearing issue on the XBR4/5 series set and the X3500 counterpart. The effect makes the XBR4/5 look like an old 50ms LCD with serious ghosting during fast moving gameplay, even in game mode. Gazonman provided an excellent post that shows the issue. For me the COD4 demo is the best example as it does the same thing on my set with the game. I will update this post as owners get more info from Sony. I have a service tech coming out this Monday.

For the record I have a 46XBR4. My PS3 and 360 are hooked up via HDMI and my Wii is component.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoman View Post

just to let you know. We are preparing a mass complaining in regards of the ghosting/smearing issue with the XBR4/5 and X3000/X3500.

feel free to join us! alter the information a bit and send it to sony in your country!


Ladies and Gentlemen

After the superb experience with the Sony 40V2000 and Sony 40W2000 I was eagerly waiting on my new 40X3500.

First I saw the brilliant color rendition, the unique 100hz implementation and the new underscan feature for 720p HDMI material, but was followed by a low blow unparalleled I would like to explain.

The X3500 has a massive fault that is unacceptable for the new flagship in the range of Sony LCD's and absolutely cries for a solution.

Smearing, ghosting in a massive scale in dark objects on also rather dark backgrounds.
primary in fast image rendering (everything above 30fps).


My observations and tests to follow - this is not about the reaction time of the panel itself, but a bug in the Bravia (PRO?) Engine.
I reckon that because neither the same panel in the new Samsung sets or the older models of Sony V2000 and W2000 are/were affected.

The fault is under discussion in the world's largest forums:

Www.hifi-forum.de - http://www.hifi-foru...914&postID=3911 # 3911
Www.avforums.com - http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=602863 (smearing faulty sets)
Www.avsforum.com - http://www.avsforum....55976&postcount=1303 (XBR U.S. serie)


Here is a clear example. Pay attention to the large dark post on the pavement that shows the problem best: http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=8eswks6&s=1
In real terms, through smooth framerates, its of course even worse!
Here is another example based on Call of Duty 4: http://www.mediafire.com/?bmj12edxb4y

It is about dark luminance which leads to smearing and enormous dark red "streaks" behind every dark object in motion.

For a Gamer it is absolutely unacceptable and even in movies very disturbing. Games like Call of Duty 4, Forza2 or GT5prologue are a total mess, all full of red / black streaks. Everything smooth and relatively slow moving with black color is affected primarily in the area of very dark black to gray. I would like to mention the three games all run with 60frames per second.

I had, as I said before, a 40V2000 and 40W2000 before my new X3500 - both didn't show this problem. All X3500 are affected (40, 46 and 52)

Here is a test to replicate the problem any time anywhere with a notebook connected to the X3500:
Http://www.thgweb.de...st-pixperan_185.html

The flag Test (F2), set the black and white setting for the upper flag row to 27! You see the problem immediately. A red front wave, unparalleled by other TV's, on the now gray flag is present.

Unacceptable, not just in my opinion. I need a solution, the device is not acceptable to me. In consideration of the price, the flagship status of the TV - this is one serious bug that has to be resolved!

I am convinced there is a software bug, solvable by a firmware update. As usual, it goes through the Internet at lightning speed, and I think Sony must be quite interested in a solution because it is about prestige and reputation, especially on the best TV set sony has to offer.

If that is not solvable (in the near future) I need an alternative. This is a clear "defect" on the device in my opinion, even a hidden defect. also to the hopefully already known erroneous Toslink DD5.1 issue and the very annoying fan noise ranks.

I hope that you take care of this asap and offer an acceptable solution.

Games that show the issue based on user response:

PS3:
R&C
COD4
Uncharted
GT5
Assassins Creed


XBox360
COD4
Madden 08
Mass Effect
Assassins Creed
Saints Row
Crackdown

Wii:
Brain Age

Crackdown and Wii Degree Video
http://www.mediafire.com/?8djfcgmw29d

LCDs I tested personally:

Passing (no trail):
Westinghouse 22w3 - pass
HP1955 - pass
HP1965 - pass
Dell 1505 1680x1050 15" LCD - pass
Samsung 52A650

Failing (trail):
Sony 46XBR4 - fail
Sony 40XBR3 - fail*
Sony 40XBR4 - fail*
Eizo L771 -fail*

*Slight trail but not like my 46XBR4 but not as good as the passing displays

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post #2 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 11:45 AM
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Thanks for this topic
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post #3 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpmurr View Post

12/12

This thread is being started to discuss the ghosting/smearing issue on the XBR4/5 series set and the X3500 counterpart. The effect makes the XBR4/5 look like an old 50ms LCD with serious ghosting during fast moving gameplay. Gazonman provided an excellent post that shows the issue. I will update this post as owners get more info from Sony. I have a service tech coming out this Monday.

For the record I have a 46XBR4. My PS3 and 360 are hooked up via HDMI and my Wii is component.

I'm going to abstain on voting until I can try out either the Prologue demo (after creating a japan psn account) or pick up Call of Duty so that I can do a direct apples-to-apples comparison to the video posted above. Until then my vote would be no smearing/trailing on Uncharted, R&C: ToD, Resistance: FoM, Warhawk, and MLB 07 The Show.

Brandon
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post #4 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 11:52 AM
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Mine is horrible during gaming, trying to sell the TV now. I don't even care if I get half of what I paid for it. Yah i hate it that bad. Funny thing though is movies look great.
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post #5 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

I'm going to abstain on voting until I can try out either the Prologue demo (after creating a japan psn account) or pick up Call of Duty so that I can do a direct apples-to-apples comparison to the video posted above. Until then my vote would be no smearing/trailing on Uncharted, R&C: ToD, Resistance: FoM, and MLB 07 The Show.

Brandon

When you do your testing make sure you make quick movements in on direction and quickly in another like the videos.

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post #6 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikecoscia View Post

Mine is horrible during gaming, trying to sell the TV now. I don't even care if I get half of what I paid for it. Yah i hate it that bad. Funny thing though is movies look great.

Why not hold onto the TV and see if Sony can come up with a firmware update? It's better then loosing a lot of money.

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post #7 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpmurr View Post

When you do your testing make sure you make quick movements in on direction and quickly in another like the videos.


But the video i saw of COD4 was hardly quick movements, I mean doing the good old POV spin on Ninja Gaiden and there is a little blur when doing a full push but it's to be exspected as i am not completly focused when i spin around in real life.

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post #8 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 12:07 PM
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I wish there gonna be a fix from SONY for this smearing thing since i love this TV and i really want to keep it, Blacks, Colors, PQ in general kills my old Samsung LNS-4696D but after i start seeing smearing i got so disappointed i have another 25 days to keep this tv hopefully by some miracle sony will come up with the solution.
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post #9 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 12:10 PM
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I mentioned this in the other thread, but there is another test that easily shows this blurring effect. If you have a PS3 and a copy of the Blu-Ray of Bram Stocker's Dracula, in the opening prologue (when Gary Oldman first starts walking toward the camera on his way out of the castle), the dark contrast between his hairline and the paleness of his face creates a noticable blur on his forhead/sides of his head around the hairline as he walks and his head bobs up and down. At first I thought it was the source since it was so noticable... but if you step frame by frame through it, there is no perceivable blur.

Likewise, Big Brain Academy (for the Wii) really exhibits this effect in the hallway/menu screen.

One interesting thing is that I haven't seen this at all in Gears of War. Very odd considering the game is ALL high contrast browns and greys. It definitely solidifies that it's a decidedly different effect than plasma RBE... that made Gears of War unplayable for me.

By the way, I voted yes on the 52XBR4.
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post #10 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamingarena View Post

I wish there gonna be a fix from SONY for this smearing thing since i love this TV and i really want to keep it, Blacks, Colors, PQ in general kills my old Samsung LNS-4696D but after i start seeing smearing i got so disappointed i have another 25 days to keep this tv hopefully by some miracle sony will come up with the solution.

Well, there certainly won't be a fix within 25 days, so I wouldn't hold onto it unless it's livable for AT LEAST 3 or 4 months (if there ever is a fix).

Quick question though: so this wasn't noticeable at all on your 96D? I had a Sharp D62U prior to the XBR4, but unfortunately I never had any of these games that really show it during that period... so I'm at a loss as to whether that set would be better or not (ie - exchange for a 64u or 92u and sacrifice some sort of small animal... since that appears to be what you have to do to get a Sharp without banding).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmeader View Post

Well, there certainly won't be a fix within 25 days, so I wouldn't hold onto it unless it's livable for AT LEAST 3 or 4 months (if there ever is a fix).

Quick question though: so this wasn't noticeable at all on your 96D? I had a Sharp D62U prior to the XBR4, but unfortunately I never had any of these games that really show it during that period... so I'm at a loss as to whether that set would be better or not (ie - exchange for a 64u or 92u and sacrifice some sort of small animal... since that appears to be what you have to do to get a Sharp without banding).

My Sharp D62 and D92 did not do the same thing unless NR was on. However, like you said you have to sacrifice a small animal to get a Sharp with minimal banding.

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post #12 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 12:47 PM
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I own a Samsung lnt 4071 and we're having a similar issue. We call it triple ball effect or TBE (since the sports watchers noticed it first). I'm going to link this thread to the 71 series thread since this is an interesting connection.

USE THE SEARCH BUTTON BEFORE POSTING QUESTIONS.
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post #13 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpmurr View Post

My Sharp D62 and D92 did not do the same thing unless NR was on. However, like you said you have to sacrifice a small animal to get a Sharp with minimal banding.

So you too got the Sony due to the relentless Sharp banding? Seems to be a common trade-up on here.
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post #14 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmeader View Post

So you too got the Sony due to the relentless Sharp banding? Seems to be a common trade-up on here.

I had six sets from Sharp spanning the D62 to D92 series and they all looked the same, the D92 series brough "clouding" into the mix as well. It's sad because you would think LCD gets better and cheaper over time. Lately it seems it's just cheaper.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by youknowryan View Post

I own a Samsung lnt 4071 and we're having a similar issue. We call it triple ball effect or TBE (since the sports watchers noticed it first). I'm going to link this thread to the 71 series thread since this is an interesting connection.

It makes sense since Sony and Samsung share LCD technology.

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post #16 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpmurr View Post

When you do your testing make sure you make quick movements in on direction and quickly in another like the videos.

Do you know if that video was taken from the single-player campaign or online multiplayer? If there is a level or location for that particular video that would be helpful.

Brandon
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post #17 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

Do you know if that video was taken from the single-player campaign or online multiplayer? If there is a level or location for that particular video that would be helpful.

Brandon

I believe that is the Warpig level under the overpass.

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post #18 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 02:26 PM
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I've found that when trying to play games with the Motion Enhancer on, you get smearing sometimes. In game mode (all video processing turned off for minimized lag) you don't get the effect. I think the smearing is an artifact of the frame interpolation with the Motion Enhancer. Just turn it off to enjoy a smear free picture!
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post #19 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdpac View Post

I've found that when trying to play games with the Motion Enhancer on, you get smearing sometimes. In game mode (all video processing turned off for minimized lag) you don't get the effect. I think the smearing is an artifact of the frame interpolation with the Motion Enhancer. Just turn it off to enjoy a smear free picture!

Unfortunately ,even with the motion enhancer off the smearing is still there
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post #20 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdpac View Post

I've found that when trying to play games with the Motion Enhancer on, you get smearing sometimes. In game mode (all video processing turned off for minimized lag) you don't get the effect. I think the smearing is an artifact of the frame interpolation with the Motion Enhancer. Just turn it off to enjoy a smear free picture!

With everything turned off including motion enchancer, heck even game mode, I still get it.

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post #21 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 03:42 PM
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Well I hadnt noticed it until stumbling upon this thread. I loaded R&C up. Stayed right outside the ship and panned the camera around. The tip of the ship blurs. It leaves a blur trail as the camera pans. Its really not big and to the normal non OCD eye it wouldnt even be noticable.

Questions:

Is this something that may be an issue with the games or the systems running the games not the tv?

Second what are the odds of a fix being released?


My 30 days is running out and ive already exchanged a cloudy set for this perfect set (minus the ghosting now). I dont think ide exchange it if the odds of a fix were good.

BTW ive done it in all setting and combinations for ME and Game mode

EDIT: Has anyone tried calling sony with this issue? I cant handle another phone call with them, they are absolutelly pathetic. Ide be interested in hearing what they have to say about this.
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post #22 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 04:12 PM
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I think the poll should be updated to include the W3000 models as my 52"W was sent back for a refund today primarily because of a faulty backlight, but the colour smearing issue was another problem, and because of that I won't be accepting a replacement.

Another good 'demo' for the smearing is with brightness around 50-55 (rgb limited output) load up CoD4 and create an 'offline' multiplayer game on the map 'Overgrown'. Locate the building with the burning tank wreck outside and enter - inside the building is pretty dark/contrasy with dark colored furniture and a stair case in an adjacent room - if you free look around here it smears like crazy with excessive black/orangey trails everywhere.

Is this a problem with all current-gen S-PVA panels?
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post #23 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 04:30 PM
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I had major trails on my 40V3000. Turning on Game Mode didn't even fix this problem. I ended up having to return the set.

Perhaps this is a problem which is affecting all of Sony's Bravia televisions?
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post #24 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 04:33 PM
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I am at home right now watching assasin's creed being played on a xbox360 premium over component @ 1080p/60 and do not see the issue at all. This is using lstephens pro calibrated settings in combination with game mode being enabled. No power save or light sensors enabled.

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post #25 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 04:38 PM
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It really is starting to look like all of Sony's recent lineup of SPVA based panels are suffering from this problem.

Anyone heard anything about the Samsung F86/71 or SPVA based Toshiba LX177 sets having this problem?
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post #26 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohns1997SS View Post

I am at home right now watching assasin's creed being played on a xbox360 premium over component @ 1080p/60 and do not see the issue at all. This is using lstephens pro calibrated settings in combination with game mode being enabled. No power save or light sensors enabled.


I get trails, they're pretty obvious. I assume they're related. I've been trying for 30 minutes to replicate what I saw here in COD4 on my set and I've been completely unsuccessful.
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post #27 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by haudidoody View Post

I get trails, they're pretty obvious. I assume they're related. I've been trying for 30 minutes to replicate what I saw here in COD4 on my set and I've been completely unsuccessful.

Well the COD4 example doesn't happen quite that easy on my set either. It requires fast movements from one direction to the other and I'll see the color smear from dark to light areas.

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post #28 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pallaris View Post

It really is starting to look like all of Sony's recent lineup of SPVA based panels are suffering from this problem.

Anyone heard anything about the Samsung F86/71 or SPVA based Toshiba LX177 sets having this problem?

My 46LX177 didn't have this is problem. However, that set made all kinds of things have a green tint that couldn't be adjusted out.

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post #29 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mbunn83 View Post

EDIT: Has anyone tried calling sony with this issue? I cant handle another phone call with them, they are absolutelly pathetic. Ide be interested in hearing what they have to say about this.

I did and got to level 2. They said they haven't heard of it and a tech is coming out Monday.

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post #30 of 1595 Old 12-12-2007, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bpmurr View Post

I did and got to level 2. They said they haven't heard of it and a tech is coming out Monday.


Please keep us posted on the outcome. Hopefully its an easy fix.
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