CES 2008: NEW Samsung 120Hz LCDs! - Page 57 - AVS Forum
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by S. Hiller View Post

What 9 series? Has anything more come out?

I think I heard 9 series (new 81's) comming in Fall but don't quote me.
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:29 PM
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Remember guys, this is only ONE person's review. There was also only ONE person's positive review. Only time will tell, and to your specific likings.
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dev1os View Post

This is why i'm leaning toward canceling my order, I really like how amp set to high looked on the 71, but the problems that people were having keept me away. A toned down amp and the same issues as the 71 makes the 650 look like a ripoff. I don't know, maybe since the 650 is new firmware updates might actually fix the problem....????

I would never order something especially a tv without seeing it, touching it and play around with it in person. Why rush? Wait till it is available locally, test it out and if you like it, order it. Same logic goes for women you meet on the Internet.

...
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by GoldenEarDrum View Post

I would never order something especially a tv without seeing it, touching it and play around with it in person. Why rush? Wait till it is available locally, test it out and if you like it, order it. Same logic goes for women you meet on the Internet.

...

true dat! yeah I let my impatience get the best of me..been wanting to buy a tv since last summer. My thinking was since it's a newer model that the issues with the 71 would be fixed. Basically getting a 71 without the issues. I'll stick with my order see how I like the 650 if not return it.
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dev1os View Post

This is why i'm leaning toward canceling my order, I really like how amp set to high looked on the 71, but the problems that people were having keept me away. A toned down amp and the same issues as the 71 makes the 650 look like a ripoff. I don't know, maybe since the 650 is new firmware updates might actually fix the problem....????

I wouldnt spend this kind of cash on a mabye. How ever i will say that the 750 does still have a chance. even though they are running the same equipment the algarithums may be different, there is a very and i meen very low chance of this. Unless like mikl1984 predicted the 750 does have different internals i dont see the 750 being any better
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dev1os View Post

true dat! yeah I let my impatience get the best of me..been wanting to buy a tv since last summer. My thinking was since it's a newer model that the issues with the 71 would be fixed. Basically getting a 71 without the issues. I'll stick with my order see how I like the 650 if not return it.

yea im never gonna play this game again. I was telling someone earlyer im just gonna take a hundred dolar bill down to BB with me next time a new round of sets comes out. Give a sales guy the said bill to just sit there and keep the rest of the staff off my back so i can test it proper. LOL who would have figured though, i was almost perfectly happy with my 71, it just needed alittle tweaking. And then samsung just tryed to hide the problem not fix it god bless, i really didnt see this coming
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Manaburn View Post

I wouldnt spend this kind of cash on a mabye. How ever i will say that the 750 does still have a chance. even though they are running the same equipment the algarithums may be different, there is a very and i meen very low chance of this. Unless like mikl1984 predicted the 750 does have different internals i dont see the 750 being any better

Well I guess it's back to square one of the waitng game.
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Old 03-14-2008, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rvs053063 View Post

Well, that is a bummer. Makes me really appreciate my antiquated 4 year old Sammy DLP. Okay, it doesn't handle blacks very well but it doesn't have any of these LCD issues. I came to this thread a couple months ago because I really wanted a larger 1080p picture with a smaller footprint and better PQ, but gosh, it seems like LCD is still in the dark ages compared to my set and mine is, as I said, 4 years old. Guess I'll wait for the 9 series and maybe THAT will have the new VP.

If you've got the space, DLP remains an excellent price/performance alternative...at least for larger screens...

(The bulb based Samsung HL-S####W series is a particular sweet spot...pretty accurate color out of the box in movie mode/warm2 and an initially awful black level, that is easily remedied by a quick trip to the service menu's iris control...)
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Old 03-14-2008, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by S. Hiller View Post

Well, maybe the new models will mean the 71F will become available at clearance prices...

Maybe, but as of the begining of the month, samsung raised there prices on there LCD's
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Old 03-14-2008, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Maybe, but as of the begining of the month, samsung raised there prices on there LCD's

Probably because the dollar is going down the drain and fast!

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Old 03-14-2008, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rvs053063 View Post

Okay, so I guess I'll be waiting til 2009 to replace my DLP and finally enter the realm of 1080p. At least my wife will be happy; she'd rather I spend the money on a new deck. A new deck?! When I could have a new TV??? What could she be thinking?

lol, I know, now my wife wants new furniture, and is looking at more expensive houses in more expensive neighborhoods. The floodgates are open.

52" Samsung 750, finally satisfaction
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Old 03-14-2008, 05:40 PM
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There may be light yet at the end of this tunnel after all. I was so pissed off that i let my emotions get the better of me, i appologize to everyone in this thread for the hasty bad review. It seems apparently TBE does not exist on game mode on any amp setting. And amp is fully adjustable wile in game mode this time which is a plus. The entertainment settings in my defence are in a totaly different menu then all the other picture settings. It was not obviouse. It was also not expected that this would make such an huge difference in how The TV behaves. Also in my defence i talked to tear 2 technical support and gave them an earfull for 20 minutes (tear 3 phone support) and they could not explain what was going on. The TV behaves bad on regular mode i am not going to take any of that back. I need much more time to evaluate these 3 different entertainment modes for what they are. The down side of these modes seems that you can not adjust anything except for amp funny enough, not even color, contrast etc. we shall see though. Again very sorry for the initial anger filled review, put your selves in my shoes, hope you can forgive me i only want to speak the truth and nothing else.
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Old 03-14-2008, 05:47 PM
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Interesting! Sounds like an AMP modification for gamers.
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Old 03-14-2008, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manaburn View Post

There may be light yet at the end of this tunnel after all. I was so pissed off that i let my emotions get the better of me, i appologize to everyone in this thread for the hasty bad review. It seems apparently TBE does not exist on game mode on any amp setting. And amp is fully adjustable wile in game mode this time which is a plus. The entertainment settings in my defence are in a totaly different menu then all the other picture settings. It was not obviouse. It was also not expected that this would make such an huge difference in how The TV behaves. Also in my defence i talked to tear 2 technical support and gave them an earfull for 20 minutes (tear 3 phone support) and they could not explain what was going on. The TV behaves bad on regular mode i am not going to take any of that back. I need much more time to evaluate these 3 different entertainment modes for what they are. The down side of these modes seems that you can not adjust anything except for amp funny enough, not even color, contrast etc. we shall see though. Again very sorry for the initial anger filled review, put your selves in my shoes, hope you can forgive me i only want to speak the truth and nothing else.

ok, so that might help for gaming, but does nothing for regular viewing, which is what most spend the majority of their time with. Sounds like they added a mode that turns everything off that could interfere with AMP, including regular picture settings, and devoted the processor to AMP. Nice for gaming, but not all that much better than game mode on the 71. And, I think this gives additional ammunition that the processor is just to damn wimpy for this tv.

52" Samsung 750, finally satisfaction
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Old 03-14-2008, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manaburn View Post

There may be light yet at the end of this tunnel after all. I was so pissed off that i let my emotions get the better of me, i appologize to everyone in this thread for the hasty bad review. It seems apparently TBE does not exist on game mode on any amp setting. And amp is fully adjustable wile in game mode this time which is a plus. The entertainment settings in my defence are in a totaly different menu then all the other picture settings. It was not obviouse. It was also not expected that this would make such an huge difference in how The TV behaves. Also in my defence i talked to tear 2 technical support and gave them an earfull for 20 minutes (tear 3 phone support) and they could not explain what was going on. The TV behaves bad on regular mode i am not going to take any of that back. I need much more time to evaluate these 3 different entertainment modes for what they are. The down side of these modes seems that you can not adjust anything except for amp funny enough, not even color, contrast etc. we shall see though. Again very sorry for the initial anger filled review, put your selves in my shoes, hope you can forgive me i only want to speak the truth and nothing else.

Manaburn, does the TBE and vapors still exist when AMP mode is on low & medium? Forget stutter and forget game mode, does the 650 series still have motion artifacts?
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Old 03-14-2008, 05:50 PM
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So, no TCE (triple crosshair effect).
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Old 03-14-2008, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr View Post

Manaburn, does the TBE and vapors still exist when AMP mode is on low & medium? Forget stutter and forget game mode, does the 650 series still have motion artifacts?

Lip, just curious, why do you disregard stutter?

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Old 03-14-2008, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr View Post

Manaburn, does the TBE and vapors still exist when AMP mode is on low & medium? Forget stutter and forget game mode, does the 650 series still have motion artifacts?

TBE exists on all amp settings so do motion artifacts when not on any of the 3 entertainment modes. Amp does seem to be extreemly amped up on the 3 entertainment modes and motion artifacts down a considerable amount although i can still see them if i try. Everything i said before the last post still applys for everything but the entertainment mode settings
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:08 PM
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from the manual:

Quote:


Off: Switches the “Entertainment” function off.
Sports: Provides the optimal picture and sound quality for sports.
Cinema: Provides the optimal picture and sound quality for movie
watching. You can experience a richer picture and enhanced sound.
Game: Provides the optimal picture and sound quality for games. This
mode accelerates the playing speed when using an external game
console connected to the TV.


would be fun to watch football in sport mode
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by borf View Post

So, no TCE (triple crosshair effect).

zero nada nill, at the expence of tweeking any other settings at all. I know there was a way to change some settings on game mode on the 71 if you took a round about path to do it so we will see. I will try to figure this out.
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studdad View Post

Lip, just curious, why do you disregard stutter?

I'm not disregarding it, i'm just putting it on the back burner for now. My main concern is the motion artifacts which is the heart of the problem with the 71 series. Stutter is still a mystery. I have been watching BR movies on a 52" 71 series for the past 3 weeks and not once did it stutter. I know about stutter, it's an issue, but i'm trying to figure out if Samsung put a more sophisticated VP in the 6 series or just dumbed it down. I'm just trying to seperate the motion artifacts issue with the stutter issue.
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:14 PM
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Setting the Entertainment mode
The “Entertainment” mode enables you to select the optimal display and sound for sports, cinema and games.
1. Press the MENU button to display the menu.
Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select “Setup”, then press the ENTER button.
2. Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select “Entertainment”, then press the ENTER
button.
3. Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select “Off”, “Sports”, “Cinema” or “Game”, then
press the ENTER button.
Off: Switches the “Entertainment” function off.
Sports: Provides the optimal picture and sound quality for sports.
Cinema: Provides the optimal picture and sound quality for movie
watching. You can experience a richer picture and enhanced sound.
Game: Provides the optimal picture and sound quality for games. This
mode accelerates the playing speed when using an external game
console connected to the TV.
•••

Press the EXIT button to exit.
If you set any of the three “Entertainment” modes to On, the settings will
be locked and can not be adjusted. If you want to make Picture and Sound
mode adjustments, the “Entertainment” mode must be turned off.
If you set any of the three “Entertainment” modes to On, “SRS TruSurround
XT” function is not available.
The “Entertainment” settings are saved for each input source.
You can press the E.MODE button on the remote control repeatedly to
change the “Entertainment” setting.
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studdad View Post

ok, so that might help for gaming, but does nothing for regular viewing, which is what most spend the majority of their time with. Sounds like they added a mode that turns everything off that could interfere with AMP, including regular picture settings, and devoted the processor to AMP. Nice for gaming, but not all that much better than game mode on the 71. And, I think this gives additional ammunition that the processor is just to damn wimpy for this tv.

you are correct. I am in the process of trying to get my hands on both US versions of the 650 and 750 service manuals. I am no electrical engineer (im a mechanical engineer lol) so i wont pretend to understand all that i am looking at. But i can notice differences between the 2, compare and contrast chips and pathways and at least make some determinations about VP differences. I can also look up model numbers of chips and internal components to further determin differences in each sets circutry. Now with entertainment mode on their algarithums look very solid not watered down at all and very few motion artifacts even on high amp. If they put a slightly better VP in the 750 we may be looking at a winner. This is why i am getting the manuals, this is the only way i will be able to figure out if they have different VPs by the time my 30 return policy expires
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr View Post

I'm not disregarding it, i'm just putting it on the back burner for now. My main concern is the motion artifacts which is the heart of the problem with the 71 series. Stutter is still a mystery. I have been watching BR movies on a 52" 71 series for the past 3 weeks and not once did it stutter. I know about stutter, it's an issue, but i'm trying to figure out if Samsung put a more sophisticated VP in the 6 series or just dumbed it down. I'm just trying to seperate the motion artifacts issue with the stutter issue.

I believe on cinema mode with amp on high you would be pleased with its behavior over the 71, dont take this as gospil by any meens i am going to get a bunch of blu-rays tomorow and test the hell out of cinima mode. cinema mode with amp on high and spiderman 3 blu-ray is absolutly distroying the 71 with respect to motion artifact production. It is not totaly gone but this small step does seem like firmware might be able to take care of it. Firmware will never help this TV on regular modes though the jump it has to make is huge. The set needs the xilleon after all i think for it to work like it needs to on all settings. the algorithums seem near flawless but it is my theory that the VP is just too taxed on normal mode (hence the existance of these 3 modes which if i keep this TV i will never leave). Mabye firmware will unlock some adjustability in thes modes ???
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:30 PM
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Hey Guys,

I think many people on this forum are expecting way too much out of motion processing. Read further if you are interested.

AMP

I would like to point out something that was only covered very slightly in the 71 thread. Adding artificially created data to a data stream is not going to improve the quality of that stream. It is not possable. Information is either collected or lost at the point where it is recorded. You can not add more in later buy guessing, even if it is educated guessing. The best possable case is to get back what you recorded in the first place.

This brings up a very important question: Why have AMP at all.

Well the idea is to reduce motion blur, and or remove judder (not stutter). The motion blur part is questionable in my mind, because the pixels must have a fast response time in order for the tweened, or added frames to reduce blur. But blur is caused by the lack of pixel response time in the first place (catch 22). I think what they are trying to do is force the pixels to change in the right direction faster by updating them between frams. This might help if you could guess at the tweened frames with 100% accuracy, but you can not.

Interpulation

It looks like most people in these threads have over looked some basic principals of inturpolation. It is a mathematical estimate (guesstimate). The accruacy is limited by the algorythm and the samples used by it. The accuracy decreases dramatically when data behaves in unexpected ways or is far away from the orignal samples.

Example: If you have an object moving through a scene at a high rate of speed it may not have been picked up in your orignal samples, but it could have moved through your tweened fram so it will not show up when it should have, or it could show up when it should not. Sound familiar.

I believe that TBE is a side effect of the inturpolation algorythm not the processor or the firmware. I really doubt you can get rid of it without adding a lot of complexity to the processing and/or number of samples which would result in more input lag.

Gaming?

Why use AMP for gaming. Seriously; I do not get it. What is expected. all you are doing is tweening the frams generated by your computer with limited accuracy and added input lag. If you really want to game at 120 Hz you need something like a CRT with pixels that can respond that fast and a killer rig that can run the game loop at that rate. There is a reason that Entertainment or Game Mode runs at 60Hz, because that will give the best results.

Where to use AMP?

Animation is a perfect case, because the animated frames are usually created by tweening in the first place. that why we get so many reports of how good they look.

Movies are a good candidate, because AMP can remove the judder caused by 24fps camerias and smooth out other issues. I am sure there will be exceptions to this.

Cable/Satelite: We need a video engineer to analyze this one. Deinterlacing is basically decompression so some information must be lost in transmission, and I do not see where AMP fits in here. I would say you have to try it on a case by case basis.

The hole point of this neverending rant is; don't expect too much from any motion processing from anybody on any processor. Just experiment with it and use it where it works best.

I would love to see somebody do a faceoff between the 71 and A650 with AMP turned off on both. I would really like to know if the new pannel is really better in pixel response time.

Have fun with whatever you buy

Dave
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:42 PM
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need help! I was going to pull the trigger on buying samsumg lnt5271f. researched for 2 months, this was it, checked many websites, price was good, excllent reviews. Now seems no one has it. BB and CC don't even have it in stock. Now I read about this samsung ln52a550, is avail and seems cheaper. mass confusion setting in. need any advise. Help!
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:53 PM
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the 550 is like the 650 except for contrast ratio and the 550 has 60hz processing 650 has 120hz. the 550 looks good i played around with it today
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:56 PM
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which is better the lnt5271f or the ln52a550?
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:57 PM
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thats something youll have to decide for yourself and read on the forums here the 71 is discussed
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Old 03-14-2008, 07:16 PM
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I like the idea of the video settings being "locked in" while in entertainment mode if it reduces the motion artifacts. Sports, Cinema, and Game modes pretty much covers everything I watch. I just want a TV that doesn't get blurry with sports and games, without worrying of burn in or image retention.

Most of the time when I mess with the video settings I end up screwing it up anyway.
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