Philips 120Hz 2ms 7403/7603 Series Discussion - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 4962 Old 03-11-2008, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radphi View Post

I own the 47pfl9732d and I've read a lot about the UK model which is the same model 47pfl9732d/10.This 2 TV are very different in the way they implement the motion compensation.The new model 47pfl7603 is probably similar with the UK model.

I think you guys have to read that thread before purchasing this one.
The UK model has a huge input lag created by the HD natural motion processing.Its at 120ms and its not recomended for gamming.It cant be fixed by Philips and cant be switched off.A lot of discussion about this is in Avforums 9632d/9732d.
Also UK model has a lot of deinterlacing artifacts.Philips uses 2 chips in these TV PNX8536 and PNX5050,with PNX5050 dedicated for motion compensation and main CPU does the deinterlacing scaling.

In the US model it uses the same chips only PNX5050 is used as a deinterlacer/scaler.

Unless philips redesign this TV, the problems would still be there.

Also the lower end models 7403/7603 uses 8bit panels,only the high end 9703 uses the 10 bit panel.
120hz is done with 3:2 pulldown then double the frame rate.

Hope this helps

Radphi,
The UK model you are referring to is an entirely different chassis and model year (2007) to the US TV model being discussed here. This model does not use the PNX5050 chipset. On the US chassis when DNM is turned off there should be little to no processing delay. Please don't assume that sets from different parts of the world are always similar.

Also, 120Hz with DNM on is different than 120Hz with DNM off. With DNM off it is as you say "3:2 pulldown then double the frame rate" with DNM on it displays 1 frame and then 4 iterpolated frames with MEMC (Motion Estimation Motion Compensation).
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post #182 of 4962 Old 03-11-2008, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Philips TV View Post

Radphi,
The UK model you are referring to is an entirely different chassis and model year (2007) to the US TV model being discussed here. This model does not use the PNX5050 chipset. On the US chassis when DNM is turned off there should be little to no processing delay. Please don't assume that sets from different parts of the world are always similar.

Also, 120Hz with DNM on is different than 120Hz with DNM off. With DNM off it is as you say "3:2 pulldown then double the frame rate" with DNM on it displays 1 frame and then 4 iterpolated frames with MEMC (Motion Estimation Motion Compensation).

Thank you for the reply and clarification PhilipsTV.
I think everybody here are happy to hear this.This definitely would be a great TV to buy,with no flaws as the UK one had last year.

Also could you please clarify if the 2007 US model 47pfl9732d/37 has the PNX5050 and HD natural motion,or if it does motion compensation(interpolation) at all at 120hz.

Thank you
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post #183 of 4962 Old 03-12-2008, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philips TV View Post

Radphi,
The UK model you are referring to is an entirely different chassis and model year (2007) to the US TV model being discussed here. This model does not use the PNX5050 chipset. On the US chassis when DNM is turned off there should be little to no processing delay.

Can you give us any idea what amount of processing delay there is with DNM turned on? Does the feature preclude gaming?
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post #184 of 4962 Old 03-12-2008, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radphi View Post

Also could you please clarify if the 2007 US model 47pfl9732d/37 has the PNX5050 and HD natural motion,or if it does motion compensation(interpolation) at all at 120hz.

The 2007 US 120Hz model 47PFL9732D/37 does NOT have DNM (Digital Natural Motion).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneota View Post

Can you give us any idea what amount of processing delay there is with DNM turned on? Does the feature preclude gaming?

I've got a TC tonight with development, I'll see if they can tell me.
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post #185 of 4962 Old 03-12-2008, 12:55 PM
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Phillips tv can you please try and find out tonight if the 2008 7000 series is going to have the PNX5100 video processor chip. We are all dying to know!
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post #186 of 4962 Old 03-13-2008, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by edogg_23 View Post

Phillips tv can you please try and find out tonight if the 2008 7000 series is going to have the PNX5100 video processor chip. We are all dying to know!

The US version (I cannot speak for other regions) does not use the PNX5100 chip.

No one could tell me with certainty about processing time yet.
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post #187 of 4962 Old 03-13-2008, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philips TV View Post

The US version (I cannot speak for other regions) does not use the PNX5100 chip.

No one could tell me with certainty about processing time yet.

Thank you for the information! Darn, I was thinking the advanced backlight dimming was due to the new chip. Oh well, still can't wait to check one of these out.
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post #188 of 4962 Old 03-13-2008, 09:48 AM
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Phillips TV,

If this has been asked please forgive me. Does the 7403/7603 series have adjustable backlight?

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post #189 of 4962 Old 03-13-2008, 10:16 AM
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The US version (I cannot speak for other regions) does not use the PNX5100 chip.

No one could tell me with certainty about processing time yet.[/quote]

I understand Philips cannot disclose info regarding how the TV is built,but we can take a wild guess of what video backend processor is used.

So obviously if its not a Philips processor,then could be Genesis Microchip or Anchor Bay(VRS).Philips didnt experience with 120hz processing in the past ,but had used in previous TVs, chips from Genesis ,Pixelworks.

With the 2007 model 47pfl9732d could be the same,as the TV has motion compensation(Active Control Motion) and PNX5050 is not used.
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post #190 of 4962 Old 03-13-2008, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by CloneXI View Post

DOTA is the Warcraft III map of Defense Of The Ancients. Manaburn is a skill that Anub'arak The Nerubian Assassin. Its also in World of Warcraft. But I guess your not much of a gamer as you said you were.

Late responce, WOW is lame. Its an easy, simplistic MMORPG for 12 year olds. I play FFXI which is a respectable title. Just cause I don't know what the hell the acronym for some terrible game is doesn't mean I'm not a gamer you moron it just means I play better games not lame old easy time sucks.
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post #191 of 4962 Old 03-13-2008, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by bpmurr View Post

Phillips TV,

If this has been asked please forgive me. Does the 7403/7603 series have adjustable backlight?

bpmurr,
The set does not have a menu control item for backlight. Backlight adjustments are linked to contrast and brightness settings.

There is some debate here...the Philips thought was always reduce the items in the menu system to make the menu more "simple". Also as I have discussed many times with PQ engineers they claim there is no real advantage (other than percieved) to this control. Their argument is that you can achieve the same number of PQ settings with or w/o a backlight control (ex. Contrast 100 Brightness 50 Backlight 8 would be the same visually as Contrast 80 Brightness 40 no backlight control since the backlight dimming is linked to these two settings and adjusted automatically)

I do not agree with them purely because of the perception of customers like and magazine reviewers. 2008 sets will not have a backlight control, I am pushing for 2009 platform improvements.
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post #192 of 4962 Old 03-13-2008, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philips TV View Post

bpmurr,
The set does not have a menu control item for backlight. Backlight adjustments are linked to contrast and brightness settings.

There is some debate here...the Philips thought was always reduce the items in the menu system to make the menu more "simple". Also as I have discussed many times with PQ engineers they claim there is no real advantage (other than percieved) to this control. Their argument is that you can achieve the same number of PQ settings with or w/o a backlight control (ex. Contrast 100 Brightness 50 Backlight 8 would be the same visually as Contrast 80 Brightness 40 no backlight control since the backlight dimming is linked to these two settings and adjusted automatically)

I do not agree with them purely because of the perception of customers like and magazine reviewers. 2008 sets will not have a backlight control, I am pushing for 2009 platform improvements.

That is understandable for the average Joe. It's nice to see you lobbying for the change in 2009. How about white balance control for those of us who want to dial in more accurate color? It seems that adjustment is becoming more commonplace in LCD sets. That's for taking the time on here to answer questions. I wish other LCD brands had reps on the board. It could help settle a lot of confusion about products.

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post #193 of 4962 Old 03-13-2008, 05:04 PM
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Borf wrote: I found little problem regarding 120hz tv's and 60fps console games. My friend's 60hz LCDs play much smoother on the PS3 than my 120hz set (with motion compensaton off).
It finally occured to me I was seeing "low framerate judder" from the framerate being only 1/2 the refresh rate (just like on a low-end PC).

Turing on motion compensation (AMP) eliminates the problem but only for unrealistically slow movements. In reality AMP "gives out" at normal game speeds 90% of the time (especially for fast games judder and TBE return).

Few PS3 games can maintain 60fps so even 60hz sets see low framerate judder occasionally. In general though the 60hz sets seem smoother to me for 60hz games, which are getting more popular (AMP on or off).

I thought motion compensation (AMP) might make a huge difference in the fluidity of games compared to 60hz LCDs. In reality motion compensation seems to fail at most game speeds (which are faster than the movie/TV pans I believe it was designed for). The result when this happens is worse than would be with a 60hz set because of the fps/hz differential.
I think many don't realize the main reason AMP makes 60hz games more fluid in first place is that it overcomes inherent judder specific to 120hz sets - 60hz sets avoid low framerate judder with 60fps games.

For 30fps games (which are getting scarce) a 120hz set should always be smoother than a 60hz set since both will experience low framerate judder but the higher 120hz refresh will smooth it out with blur and i ramble bleaa

Borf, I noticed games that run at 60fps don't really make a difference when Motion Interpolation (AMP, MotionFlow, HDNM) is turned on. It only works well with 30fps games. But even though its not consistant in making it run at 60fps.

Like you said when the motion is too fast, the vectors can't calculate right and it loses it. That's why i think samsung does a better job at this then Sony. But sony does it better then the others do. I've seen the mitsubishi Smooth120hz turned on and it didn't really make much difference.

I know that Philips invented this technology and that's why i'm so interested in these new EcoTVs which is said to have the HD Natural Motion.

I have WinDVD which has TrimensionDNM (Trimension Digital Natural Motion) which i know is also by philips. I have my laptop connected to my theater room projector. Not all DVD movies you could turn ON the feature. But there is an option to "Force Wave" it. It works well better then the samsung and I am hoping it is the same with these new Philips TVs.

And the question I would like to ask Philips TV is "Does the new EcoTVs work as good or better then the Samsungs? (consistancy, i don't mind the ghosting) Does it work as good or better then the TrimensionDNM on the WinDVD program?"

A "YES" answer will have me sold on this TV.

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Manaburn wrote: WOW is lame

If WoW is so lame then why does it make millions of dollars every month? Its only the most successful game in the whole history of video games. Nevermind don't answer that, you'll probably say something like "because there's alot of simpletons in the world" or something moronic like that.
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post #194 of 4962 Old 03-14-2008, 07:24 AM
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bpmurr, the philips tv's do have color adjustments, like Philips TV said the only thing auto is the backlight adjustment. and it works well by all accounts that i have read. but would be a good selling point to add backlight adjustment since most consumers are judging the lcd tv's by this feature being present.
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post #195 of 4962 Old 03-14-2008, 07:41 AM
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Does anyone know if this version of the tv, allows for all 6 white points to be adjusted (unlike the 5 points in the previous models) for greyscale??

Thanks
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post #196 of 4962 Old 03-14-2008, 08:48 AM
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Well actually if you go on youtube there is a 6 minute video from CES and they are showing off the eco tvs and there are serveral modes you can chose from which effect the backlighting like movie mode, sports mode etc... Although they were showing the ECO tv (5000 series) they said that the features are on the 7000 series as well.
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post #197 of 4962 Old 03-14-2008, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by muad'dib View Post

Does anyone know if this version of the tv, allows for all 6 white points to be adjusted (unlike the 5 points in the previous models) for greyscale??

Thanks

The 2008 Philips sets do have a 6 element white point adjustment in the service menu, there is no white point adjustment (other than color temp Cool, Normal, Warm) in the consumer menu.
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post #198 of 4962 Old 03-14-2008, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philips TV View Post

The 2008 Philips sets do have a 6 element white point adjustment in the service menu, there is no white point adjustment (other than color temp Cool, Normal, Warm) in the consumer menu.

That seems odd. With last years 7432 and 7422 sets there were color temps Cool, Normal, and Warm, but also Custom. The custom color temp allowed you to adjust R, B, and G white point and also R and G black level. This was all in the consumer menu. Why would they take a step back in this regard.

I am using a custom color temp from a CNET review which was said to track very well to 6500K and I like this custom temp much better than any of the presets.
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post #199 of 4962 Old 03-14-2008, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BIGJOHNB20 View Post

That seems odd. With last years 7432 and 7422 sets there were color temps Cool, Normal, and Warm, but also Custom. The custom color temp allowed you to adjust R, B, and G white point and also R and G black level. This was all in the consumer menu. Why would they take a step back in this regard.

I am using a custom color temp from a CNET review which was said to track very well to 6500K and I like this custom temp much better than any of the presets.

I totally agree with BIGJOHNB20 - this custom setting is a great feature to have and by taking it out of the customer menu Philips is going backwards - to access this through the service menu which can void your warranty "if accessed" is a big mistake - any reviews of the 2007 models always gave Philips praise for having this included in the customer menu. It makes no sense to take it out??

Wazy
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post #200 of 4962 Old 03-14-2008, 03:08 PM
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it has a personal mode, sports ,standard,movie, game,and power saver modes also.
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post #201 of 4962 Old 03-14-2008, 03:20 PM
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Heres a link to the video on you tube. The tv they are talking about is the 5000 series but he says the 7000 will have these features too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmSwDNxf6CQ
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post #202 of 4962 Old 03-14-2008, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philips TV View Post

The 2008 Philips sets do have a 6 element white point adjustment in the service menu, there is no white point adjustment (other than color temp Cool, Normal, Warm) in the consumer menu.

You should lobby technical to get this in the consumer menu for 09 as well.

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post #203 of 4962 Old 03-14-2008, 05:25 PM
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How does fast moving sports/movies and most importantly GAMES look on this set? The 7403 sounds really sexy...
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post #204 of 4962 Old 03-14-2008, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philips TV View Post

The 2008 Philips sets do have a 6 element white point adjustment in the service menu, there is no white point adjustment (other than color temp Cool, Normal, Warm) in the consumer menu.

Awesome!!

About time to have the 6 adjustments... Too bad you have to go into the service menu

Oh well, If I have too I will... I need the acurate colours..


On the same thought, in the service menu, will we be able to ajust the colour decoder? I think there are also 6 adjustments for cyan, red, blue, etc.....


Thanks again...
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post #205 of 4962 Old 03-17-2008, 12:46 PM
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Any new news on these sets? My web searches show that the 42" is supposed to come out in March. Last time I checked we are in the 2nd half of March. Any stores have these to date?
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post #206 of 4962 Old 03-18-2008, 05:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I was at BB Sunday and the 7432s were gone from the wall 'o screens -- there was just a blank space where the Philips TVs used to be. If I had to guess, I'd say they'll be showing up before too long.
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post #207 of 4962 Old 03-18-2008, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneota View Post

I was at BB Sunday and the 7432s were gone from the wall 'o screens -- there was just a blank space where the Philips TVs used to be. If I had to guess, I'd say they'll be showing up before too long.

Same thing with my Best Buy

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post #208 of 4962 Old 03-22-2008, 12:21 PM
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I was at best buy on Friday, still no new philips, although the old models were gone too. I asked if they were getting any this weekend, they said no.
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post #209 of 4962 Old 03-22-2008, 02:36 PM
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philips electronics store website s down until sunday so maybe e thats a good sign of them revamping the site for the sale of the new tv!

------------
IAM
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post #210 of 4962 Old 03-22-2008, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by iamluvinlife View Post

philips electronics store website s down until sunday so maybe e thats a good sign of them revamping the site for the sale of the new tv!

I hope so, I'm very interested in seeing if this set holds up to the 2ms claim. If so there should be pretty much no ghosting/trailing etc on the panel.

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